Most OP Level 4 character

[Mongobear]

So, I have just started a new campaign with my group, and I allowed them to begin at level 4 since we all prefer the low-mid to hi-mid level range more than beginning as a fresh off the line level 1. And looking over the party I began thinking, how do their characters measure up compared to what the internet can do?

The party after creation looks like this:

Swashbuckler 3/Rogue 1--Staying with Rogue until focusing on TWF, plans on taking the Daring Outlaw feat at 6 for SA progression, mentioned either Duelist(Pathfinder Version) or Tempest afterwards.

Sorcerer 4--Kind of going for a "Batman" build according to our conversations afterwards when i noticed he had a very random selection of spells.

Wizard 4--Plans on going for some kind of goofy item creation/Artificer hybrid, i honestly have no idea whats he is trying to do, he did mention the Feat Dual Wand Wielder once he gets the requirements.

Paladin 4--I made up a homebrew version based on the Divine Crusader PrC from Complete Divine and he is my guinea pig. The class is basically a Gish build but with very limited spells lists(Two Domain's spells only)

Warlock 4--Playing mainly as a debuff archer/party face based on his invocations. He mentioned the Eldritch Desciple PrC but Im not sure if he is still going for it or not.



I know not many of these guys are all that powerful on their own, but together, they over powered a group of 20 Level 3 NPC Warriors at once due to a failed Diplomacy roll with little effort.

Now my question is this, using the following list of allowed materials, and creation guidelines, whats the most powerful level 4 character you can make?





Character Creation Guidelines

The following is a list of methods and source books I would like everyone to use in an effort to have characters as balanced as possible between each person.

Ability Score Generation

All characters' ability scores will be rolled ideally infront of the DM using 4d6 rerolling all results of 1, and keeping the best 3 reults. If a set of stats does not total atleast a +8 cumulative modifier, or have any score above a 15, you may choose* to reroll the entire set, or generate your ability scores using the Point Buy method with a 38 point budget. For those unfamiliar with the system, it is in the D&D 3.5 DMG on page 169.

*Note: Once you decide on a method for re-generating your ability scores, that method is final, you cannot generate a second array of ability scores, then decide to use the Point Buy method.

Race/Class Choice Sources

For the purposes of creating your character, I would like everyone to keep all of their character concepts within the confines of my list of official D&D 3.5e "Expanded Core Materials" and their choice of a single official D&D 3.5e "Splashbook" of the PCs choice.

In addition, characters begin play at level 4 with enough experience to place them exactly half way to level 5. This buffer zone of experience is for the purposes of LA Buyback, Crafting your own gear, Odd Templates/Rituals with an XP cost. My only rule covering this is that you run anything extremely odd by me first, and that your character remains as close to ECL 4 as possiblewhenever we begin play.

I would like for everyone to also keep their racial choices/templates to a minimum of a single choice, no template stacking or Template + LA Race combinations, you get ONE choice. In addition, I would prefer it if you keep your characters within the realms of humanity, that is to say they are medium size, have 2 legs, 2 arms and one head with the same general anatomy as a Human being. A race with something akin to Powerful Build is fine, however permanently being Large or larger is not.

Please dont make a character that consists of a mass of black pulsating tentacles just because its only LA +2. You must be capable of either completely passing as one of the Core PHB/EPH Races, or with a reasonable amount of refluffing on my part, can be made into a mostly Humanoid creature.

This is not all set in stone, and anyone who comes to me with a thought out and generally feasible concept that requires material from another official rulebook may get my approval, but no more than one additional "Splashbook" for my own sanity please. This is also not the norm, and you should not just automatically assume I will ok something because you thought out an indepth reason as to why it can/should be allowed.

Expanded Core Materials
PHB 1 & 2
DMG 1 & 2
MM 1-5
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Races of... Series
Original 5 Complete... Series
ToB, ToM, and MoI**

**Note: These books, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, and Magic of Incarnum are extremely complex compared to the regular Core books, anyone who chooses to use them should be capable of playing the classes involved without needing the book infront of them at every minute to recheck how something works.

Specific Banned* Material
Any D&D 3.5e Campaign specific rulebooks
Any non-updated D&D 3.0e Rulebook
"Tier 0" Infinite combos and loopholes
3rd Party/Wiki Anything
Unearther Arcana "Generic Classes"
Anything involving Taint or Sanity mechanics
Magical Locations/Rituals
Anything else I find I may have missed giving someone an unfair advantage over other players who "didnt think of it" when making a character.

*Note: Other than the material just listed, pretty much any D&D 3.5e rulebook is open game, as well as some Pathfinder materials if you find something without a 3.5 equivalent, with one major rule: Please run any of your ideas by me before completely settling on what you want to play, or if you have a question/need advice on how to build your character.

The Golden Rule

I know this should not need to be said, but I will restate it for the sake of making it known. I am intending this game to be a serious, roleplay/interaction based series of adventures. Combat will not be the only focus of encounters, but it will be there on an "as needed" basis. I would hope you all make characters you are capable of making a connection with, and can roleplay seriously.

"In D&D, players are given a wide-open sandbox style world, with nearly infinite potential power. Yet, most of the time, their first instinct is to burn the world down and piss on the ashes." -Anonymus

Please don't be the type of players described above. I am being lenient on alignments, however I dont want you guys to be constantly flip-flopping around just because of it. If you choose to pick an alignment, I will not penalize you for doing any action that is within one general step of that alignment. But if you start doing extreme actions completely opposite of your stated alignment, I will intervene, either forcing you to another alignment, or pulling a mulligan and making you rechoose your action.

[Gwendol]

Define "powerful" please. Is it who can deal the most damage to a single target, who can solo party level appropriate encounters, etc?

[SPoilaaja]

Pun Pun is easily achieved at lvl 4 and is considered the most powerful build out there

[GrassyGnoll]

Bard 4 Silverbrow Human with Dragonfire Inspiration and plot-implied Leadership for a mob of scrubs to buff. (sourcebook: Dragon Magic)

+ Badge of Valor (Magic Item Compendium) + Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) + Vest of Legends (DMG II) for 4d6 fire damage swinging mooks. Might be too similar to your last encounter if it feels like you're just trying to overwhelm your players with a swarm.

[Mongobear]

Define "powerful" please. Is it who can deal the most damage to a single target, who can solo party level appropriate encounters, etc?

Ohh, I guess I should have cleared that up. By powerful, I mean optimized, whether through Damage Per Round, Utility, or any other aspect you can consider Optimized.


As far as the other 2 responses, you didnt even bother reading my entire post, Neither of those builds are legal/even possible within the realms of what I asked.

[GrassyGnoll]

Anything is possible if you try hard and believe in yourself.

[greenpotato]

Psion 3 / Wilder 1

Important Feats:
linked power
metapower linked

Important powers:
Synchronicty
Bestow Power


Infinite PP loop and the ability to interrupt anything with readied action/s.

[Krazzman]

Ohh, I guess I should have cleared that up. By powerful, I mean optimized, whether through Damage Per Round, Utility, or any other aspect you can consider Optimized.


As far as the other 2 responses, you didnt even bother reading my entire post, Neither of those builds are legal/even possible within the realms of what I asked.

I don't see where the bard is illegal. Pun Pun is TO and outside of your guidelines.
But the Bard? Fits right in. Bard using your expanded core and one additional Slatbook.
I would probably say Bardsader.
Bard2/Crusader1/Bard1. With Dragonfire Inspiration and the one that let's you activate Inspire better in White Raven stance as well as stacking Bard and Crusader levels for Inspire.

[erikun]

Bard 4 (or Rogue 4, or Expert 4, or Factotum 4, or anything with Human Paragon) with 16 CHA, max skill ranks (7) in Use Magic Device, Magical Aptitude feat, and Skill Focus [Use Magic Device] feat get a +15 bonus to Use Magic Device checks. That requires only a 5 to be rolled to activate a random wand and requires a 10 to be rolled to activate a random magic item.

A lot of skills can be optimized in this way, from just the general "I am really good at this" easily obtainable +15 all the way up to Bubs the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) and his +37 bonus.

[Techwarrior]

I'd guess with the restrictions placed, Necropolitan Gray Elf Elven Generalist Wizard would be pretty high up there.

Int 20, other stats to taste.

1- Precocious Apprentice
W- Scribe Scroll
3- Alacritous Cogitation

You have 3 2nd level spells (4 actually, but save one for Alacritous Cogitation), 5 1st level spells, and 4 cantrips without gear. Further, once per day you can cast any one spell you know as a full-round action spontaneously. You're still in the level range where you can get Color Spray to be effective as a 1st level spell. Further, with your undead status, most Fort effects don't affect you, and you have good HP for a wizard, especially an elven one.

[Haldir]

Define "powerful" please. Is it who can deal the most damage to a single target, who can solo party level appropriate encounters, etc?

Given the state of the meta-game, "most damage" is never actually considered powerful, as HP is the largest defensive stat in the game and has greatest amount of options for mitigation.

[John Longarrow]

1/2 Elf 1/2 Fey Marshal 1 / Beguiler 1.
Go heavy on the Charisma. With the 1/2 fey at will charm you should be able to get a lot of followers. With the high Charisma you should be able to get them to do what you want. Toss in flight and an at will touch attack...

[Mystia]

I know no sane DM would ever allow this, but if cheese counts:

NE Halfling
Ranger 2 Halfling Druid 1 (RotW, p 157) Cancer Mage 1
Flaw - Shaky (-2 on ranged attacks)
Feats: (Flaw) Great Fortitude, (1st) Toughness, (3rd) Poison Immunity

Standard Cancer Mage shenanigans apply > Infinite AC and STR.

As OP as something mundane gets at level 4, I think. Exploits broken mechanics as usual.

[ninjamaster1991]

The most OP build (besides Pun-Pun) I've seen is a Symbiote (Dread Blossom Swarm) Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Fire Cold Warforged.

You make it by taking a Warforged, giving it the elemental rituals of Fire and Cold from Savage Species (each +1 LA), then casting Incarnate Construct on it to take away those LA. Next, you turn it into a Dragonborn of Bahamut (campaign-specific, but optional) which explicitly lets you keep your subtypes. Finally, you apply the Symbiote template (+1 LA that you have to keep) to gain Swarm traits, Plant traits, and, far more importantly, Regeneration - bypassed only by Fire and Cold, which you're immune to. At level 1. For 1L A.

Through this, you're still technically a Warforged, so you can take Adamantine Body and levels in Warforged Juggernaut, so at 7th level (ECL 8) you can gain immunity to nonlethal damage, as well as a laundry list of immunities.


Of course, if that's too much (Savage Species is mandatory for this), or your DM isn't completely crazy, just play a Human Druid with Natural Spell.

[boxfox]

The most OP build (besides Pun-Pun) I've seen is a Symbiote (Dread Blossom Swarm) Dragonborn Incarnate Construct Fire Cold Warforged.

You make it by taking a Warforged, giving it the elemental rituals of Fire and Cold from Savage Species (each +1 LA), then casting Incarnate Construct on it to take away those LA. Next, you turn it into a Dragonborn of Bahamut (campaign-specific, but optional) which explicitly lets you keep your subtypes. Finally, you apply the Symbiote template (+1 LA that you have to keep) to gain Swarm traits, Plant traits, and, far more importantly, Regeneration - bypassed only by Fire and Cold, which you're immune to. At level 1. For 1L A.

Through this, you're still technically a Warforged, so you can take Adamantine Body and levels in Warforged Juggernaut, so at 7th level (ECL 8) you can gain immunity to nonlethal damage, as well as a laundry list of immunities.


Of course, if that's too much (Savage Species is mandatory for this), or your DM isn't completely crazy, just play a Human Druid with Natural Spell.

Your idea is not allowed in his rules due to stacking templates and a few other things.

I'm not really going to participate (sorry). I haven't created a character with a normal race in...well ever, I think....there might have been a gray elf wizard once...but I think it had a home-brewed Lesser Illithid template on it.

I get that you're curious, which is fine and great, but it doesn't really matter how optimized anyone here can make a character. The important information in your post is that all of your players are playing something NOT really optimized. They're all playing something a little off-kilter and probably because they're enjoying it. If the Wiz and Sorc continue on as they are, then your party is pretty balanced in power/usefulness for the most part, which is great.

Honestly, I couldn't play a character as mundane as you're asking if it were allowed to start 3 levels higher than everyone else...I'd lose my mind.

[ddude987]

Pun Pun is easily achieved at lvl 4 and is considered the most powerful build out there

Doesn't the omnicificer (spelling?) beat Pun Pun?

[Mongobear]

I get that you're curious, which is fine and great, but it doesn't really matter how optimized anyone here can make a character. The important information in your post is that all of your players are playing something NOT really optimized. They're all playing something a little off-kilter and probably because they're enjoying it. If the Wiz and Sorc continue on as they are, then your party is pretty balanced in power/usefulness for the most part, which is great.

Yeah I understand what youre saying about no one really Optimizing as much as they could, Im just surprised by the party make-up since 3 of the 5 of them are usually the guys showing up with T1/2 stuff and breaking other adventures. I get that sometimes, people just want to actually play a game instead of give DMs a migraine, but I was just a little surprised.


Honestly, I couldn't play a character as mundane as you're asking if it were allowed to start 3 levels higher than everyone else...I'd lose my mind.


Dont quite get what you are trying to say here. The whole group is starting at level 4, not a single person. We just get tired of low level adventuring so quickly, we usually try and skip the monotony of early play since its usually slow and tedious.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't the omnicificer (spelling?) beat Pun Pun?
The omniscificer builds old Pun-Pun by virtue of getting unlimited knowledge and influence and then arranging it so the kobold gets squashed before he can reach level 5 rather than beating him in a slugfest. The latest Pun-Pun ascends at level 1 through Pazuzu; the omniscificer doesn't work quickly enough.

[Kennisiou]

You could make a pretty solid diplomancer by level four using the rules outlined. Epic Level Handbook's rules that made it into SRD need to be in play for fanatical to be a NPC attitude achievable via diplomacy, but otherwise no serious need for other source material.

Marshal 1 for free cha to cha skills and skill focus (diplomacy), bard 3 for access to eagle's splendor and a few other spells via wands/spells per day, as well as the bardsong ability to gain a +4 morale bonus on skill rolls, and nab feats/traits that gain diplomacy boosts from whatever books are available. Half Elf for another +2. Grab all the synergy bonuses possible (iirc all skills that provide synergy bonuses to diplomacy are class skills for bard). With all of that going for you making the skill check to get a person's attitude to fanatical isn't too hard.

[Vaz]

Divine Minion Template? Wild Shape into a 12HD (?) Creature at ECL3 ish?

With Flaws

Neraph Sorcerer 4, with iron will, reserves of strength, precocious apprentice and assume supernatural ability. Take the form of a Visilight. Drain charisma in grapples, and then have that Charisma drained added to your spell DC's. Go to an inn, and purchase a dozen or so wenches for the night. Assuming standard human stats, thats roughly +84 on average, on top of your typical 16, and are now running around putting out DC46ish l2 spells as well as adding that to your Charisma based skills, inckuding iaijutsu focus and umd (you did trsin all the charisma cross class skills, right?)'

[boxfox]

Dont quite get what you are trying to say here. The whole group is starting at level 4, not a single person. We just get tired of low level adventuring so quickly, we usually try and skip the monotony of early play since its usually slow and tedious.

Sorry, was just saying that I never play "normal" things. For example, right now I'm in a campaign playing a Wemic (FR...think centaur with lion instead of horse)...and this is really really basic for me. Playing straight barb/fighter (limited books).
I like things like pixies, mind flayers, phoelarchs, yuan-ti abominations....you get the point. I almost always homebrew these, too, reducing the power substantially in order to keep it more in line with the campaign.

I have a 2-headed lesser Illithid Taddol character who is runs dual-spell progression and ends with 20th level arcane and divine casting. Taddol is a pathfinder race (3rd party), and lesser Illithid is a homebrew template that gives +4 INT, -2 Wis and -2 Cha along with a ton of flavor.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/4062951
That's a class I made, which I'll be playing soon. Very kool stuff....lower T2 usually.

:) That's why I didn't try to make an optimized character for you...I wouldn't know how to optimize a "normal" character. :P

[Tvtyrant]

In practical optimization terms I would say Mystic Sword of the Arcane Order Wildshape Ranger would be, as it nets the best casting of the level and the best none-casting ability.

[thethird]

Let's try this...

I'm going with miniatures handbook for extra book.

Using the point buy option (because it is easier to alocate points, otherwise just max CHA) and being a venerable half elf:

STR 9 DEX 10 CON 10 INT 16 WIS 14 CHA 22

Class levels wise: Marshal / Warlock / Binder / Incarnate

Skills: Diplomacy 7, Bluff 5, Knowledge (royalty) 5, sense motive 5, and as many languages as you can get (speak language is a class skill of marshal)

Feats: Able learner [RoD], Complementary Insight [RoD], Skill focus (diplomacy) [bonus from marshal]

Items: Masterwork tools of diplomacy [50 g], Circlet of persuasion [4500 gp]

Stuff (from class levels): Motivate Charisma Aura, Beguiling influence invocation, silvertongue mask soulmeld, naberius vestige

Diplomacy:
7 Ranks
+6 Charisma
+6 Motivate charisma
+9 Synergy
+4 Silver tongue mask
+2 racial
+3 Skill focus
+2 master work tool
+3 circlet of persuasion
Able to take 10 as a standard action (via Naberius)
= 52

The DC to turn a hostile creature helpful is 50. You beat it as a standard action.

Enjoy.

[Haldir]

In practical optimization terms I would say Mystic Sword of the Arcane Order Wildshape Ranger would be, as it nets the best casting of the level and the best none-casting ability.

Funnily enough, you can't take Sword of the Arcane Order as a feat until sixth level, as it requires that you be 4th level in the Ranger class.

Even if you could, netting spellcasting and ranged martial weapons isn't really all that impressive, given that an Elf Wizard is pretty much going to be just a capable because of the longbow prof. Light armor is nice, but still strictly inferior to Mage Armor, which that Elf Wizard is going to be rocking.

-Dispelling the myth that Mystic Ranger is overpowered, one quote box at a time.

[toapat]

Bubs the Commoner is the highest combat power build for lvl 4. However Bubs trades out basically all other potential strengths for that advantage. (also, bubs isnt fully optimized in terms of classes, otherwise he would have some source of Inspire Courage)

the grey elf Necropolitain Wizard as mentioned earlier is the highest utility build mentioned so far.

Everything else will fall within a triangle on this graph with the hypotenuse on a line traveling through Bubs and the Elf.

[TuggyNE]

Given the state of the meta-game, "most damage" is never actually considered powerful, as HP is the largest defensive stat in the game and has greatest amount of options for mitigation.

That's not necessarily true. Suppose you have a build capable of doing enough damage to kill all opponents up to CR 8 as a standard action at range against any practical saves or AC, along with enough initiative and/or Hide/Move Silently/Spot to almost always go first. Such a build would be extremely powerful in any sort of practical play.

TO-wise, this can be done in large part simply by making use of the Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7446.0) trick, along with various initiative boosters and such. Such a build would not meet the stated requirements, but it's possible a different one would.

[Haldir]

That's not necessarily true. Suppose you have a build capable of doing enough damage to kill all opponents up to CR 8 as a standard action at range against any practical saves or AC, along with enough initiative and/or Hide/Move Silently/Spot to almost always go first. Such a build would be extremely powerful in any sort of practical play.

TO-wise, this can be done in large part simply by making use of the Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7446.0) trick, along with various initiative boosters and such. Such a build would not meet the stated requirements, but it's possible a different one would.

Mirror Image, Blur, Protection From Arrows, Wind Wall, Friendly Fire.... The list of ways to stop attacks goes on and on and on. I am not saying that damage can't be an effective way to neutralize a target, but given that there are objectively less ways to protect all of the other defensive stats, hitpoints seem to me to be the least vulnerable stat and therefore a non-optimal route toward victory.

[toapat]

That's not necessarily true. Suppose you have a build capable of doing enough damage to kill all opponents up to CR 8 as a standard action at range against any practical saves or AC, along with enough initiative and/or Hide/Move Silently/Spot to almost always go first. Such a build would be extremely powerful in any sort of practical play.

TO-wise, this can be done in large part simply by making use of the Sleeping Raven Infinite Blood Frenzy (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=7446.0) trick, along with various initiative boosters and such. Such a build would not meet the stated requirements, but it's possible a different one would.

Beyond Aliips (which are entirely OP) and Optithorp-City, what stops a battletitan at level 4?

[Tvtyrant]

Funnily enough, you can't take Sword of the Arcane Order as a feat until sixth level, as it requires that you be 4th level in the Ranger class.

Even if you could, netting spellcasting and ranged martial weapons isn't really all that impressive, given that an Elf Wizard is pretty much going to be just a capable because of the longbow prof. Light armor is nice, but still strictly inferior to Mage Armor, which that Elf Wizard is going to be rocking.

-Dispelling the myth that Mystic Ranger is overpowered, one quote box at a time.

The point isn't the ability to use ranged martial weapons, it is wildshaping with wizard casting and full BaB when that actually matters. Even without wizard casting they get Summon Nature's Ally II, Summon Desert Ally II, Barkskin, Lion's Charge, Conjure Ice Beast II, and a lot of other spells at that level while still maintaining the best features of it and the Druid class.

[HammeredWharf]

-snip-

This is pretty much what I'd say. RAW Diplomacy is broken and it gets even worse with Naberius.

[TuggyNE]

Mirror Image, Blur, Protection From Arrows, Wind Wall, Friendly Fire.... The list of ways to stop attacks goes on and on and on. I am not saying that damage can't be an effective way to neutralize a target, but given that there are objectively less ways to protect all of the other defensive stats, hitpoints seem to me to be the least vulnerable stat and therefore a non-optimal route toward victory.

Sure. My point was merely that damage is not, prima facie, out of the question; it is merely difficult to optimize. But once you do get past those partial defenses, there are very few immunities to worry about.

Hence the gray text, to denote a nitpick.


Beyond Aliips (which are entirely OP) and Optithorp-City, what stops a battletitan at level 4?

Not much. Charm/hold/calm/hide from animals or animal trance, for starters.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The point isn't the ability to use ranged martial weapons, it is wildshaping with wizard casting and full BaB when that actually matters. Even without wizard casting they get Summon Nature's Ally II, Summon Desert Ally II, Barkskin, Lion's Charge, Conjure Ice Beast II, and a lot of other spells at that level while still maintaining the best features of it and the Druid class.

You get either wizard casting OR natural spell by level 6. To get both you need to be level 9, and a level later your spellcasting progression pretty much stops.

At level 4 you're pretty much a druid who traded his animal companion for full BAB and a severely restricted spell list. Which is a +1 to attack.
At level 6 you're either that same druid or you can use you limited spell slots for wizard spells, too. You probably won't have the ability scores for bonus spells though because of MAD.
By level 9 your divine spellcasting is a gimmick. You're a wizard with druid HD, a few extra spells known, Wild Shape and full BAB, just without all those nice wizard ACFs, less spells per day and lower DCs.

Not that Mystic Ranger is bad. It's a nice option to keep up for groups who have one or more competently played full casters in them. But it's not overpowered by any means.
It's also not superior to a druid with animal companion, a wizard with a good build & spell selection or other high tier options. It is a nice low-level gish option that can keep up, which is nice for variety and really all that's needed.

[toapat]

Not much. Charm/hold/calm/hide from animals or animal trance, for starters.

so Fey templates and the most broken creature published. that or city optimization but that doesnt count because by the point where Tokyo can fight godzilla its damn well going to stop everything short of a wizard or cleric.

granted, Allips still counter an entirely unreasonable percentage of the game.

[TuggyNE]

so Fey templates and the most broken creature published.

For completeness, it should be noted that changing type away from Animal makes the Handle Animal checks to train vastly harder (+45 relative), so Bubs is no longer capable of training Battletitans. Indeed anything other than Animals and possibly a few low-level Magical Beasts is completely out of reach.

[toapat]

For completeness, it should be noted that changing type away from Animal makes the Handle Animal checks to train vastly harder (+45 relative), so Bubs is no longer capable of training Battletitans. Indeed anything other than Animals and possibly a few low-level Magical Beasts is completely out of reach.

i was listing off what, At level, negate's Bub's might. mostly it comes down to a small cross section of the incorporal undead below CR4, and an low level fey template (because fey themselves are not typically low cr)

theoretically you could buff up the raw power of bubs, such as replacing a commoner level with Harmonious Knight 1 paladin.

[TuggyNE]

i was listing off what, At level, negate's Bub's might. mostly it comes down to a small cross section of the incorporal undead below CR4, and an low level fey template (because fey themselves are not typically low cr)

Oh, I see. I assumed you were trying to avoid those spells by changing type away from Animal. Any enemy Druid, Ranger, Bard, or even Adept at CR 4 has at least one of the listed spells available if they desire it, so that's not a particularly obscure weakness.

[toapat]

Oh, I see. I assumed you were trying to avoid those spells by changing type away from Animal. Any enemy Druid, Ranger, Bard, or even Adept at CR 4 has at least one of the listed spells available if they desire it, so that's not a particularly obscure weakness.

well, maybe Bubs goes the cheap route and invests in flasks of Masterwork Barbecue sauce to override the problem.

[zingbobco000]

Be a kobold! Yes, I think that's sort of in the rules.

Level 1: Extend Spell
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Flaw feat: Empower spell
Flaw feat: Sculpt Spell
Take the White Dragonspawn Template at level 2 from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (splatbook of choice) I would normally say blue, but seeing that this is only level 4... As a dragon (from white dragonspawn) you can be old. (Dragonwrought feat for free)
Take the loredrake sovriegn archetype for an increase in two levels.
Level 3: Easy metamagic, Empower Spell
Also you buy-off your LA and you have an increase in 1 level (from dragonspawn)
You should have bought off your LA buy 1/2 way through 5
So at 4th level you cast as a 7th level caster.

[Spuddles]

Beyond Aliips (which are entirely OP) and Optithorp-City, what stops a battletitan at level 4?

ray of stupidity

[zingbobco000]

ray of stupidity

Empowered, maximized, twinned, split ray, and chain = 32 int damage… to a single target.

[Bonzai]

Perhaps not OP, but at low levels Incarnates are pretty powerful.

A level 4 incarnate has 4 essentia, 4 soul melds, and one bond.

An Azurian Incarnate with expanded capacity feat, and 1 Incarnum feat, would have 6 essentia to play with.

Melds up could include;

Necrocarnum circlet (bound): for a 4 HD Necrocarnum zombie

Dissolving Spittle: 1d6 ranged touch attack that deals acid damage. Does an additional d6 per essentia invested. With the incarnate class feature and the feat you can bump your cap up by 2. 4d6 damage at 4th level keeps up with most casters. Sadly this falls off real quick.

Air step Sandles: quick and easy flight.

Plus one more meld that is open to whatever you feel is important, and room for additional feats. To me that's pretty strong without trying to hard.

[toapat]

ray of stupidity

there are 3 of them however. even if you eliminate one of them, the other 2 will instagib you.

[Ruethgar]

Human, Factotum 1/Major Bloodline 3/Warblade 1/Chameleon 2. Character level 4, CL 10, IL of 7. Takes another 6 levels to lose ground on that IL if in non-IL classes. Five more Chameleon is nice, and what the hell, Ardent(or STP Erudite) gets an instant ML of 4 if you take that and go Practiced Manifester you are at ML 8 at character level 10 which is nice.

[dextercorvia]

Be a kobold! Yes, I think that's sort of in the rules.

Level 1: Extend Spell
Flaw: Noncombatant
Flaw: Murky-Eyed
Flaw feat: Empower spell
Flaw feat: Sculpt Spell
Take the White Dragonspawn Template at level 2 from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (splatbook of choice) I would normally say blue, but seeing that this is only level 4... As a dragon (from white dragonspawn) you can be old. (Dragonwrought feat for free)
Take the loredrake sovriegn archetype for an increase in two levels.
Level 3: Easy metamagic, Empower Spell
Also you buy-off your LA and you have an increase in 1 level (from dragonspawn)
You should have bought off your LA buy 1/2 way through 5
So at 4th level you cast as a 7th level caster.

Source:Miniature's Handbook

Race: Illumian (Naenhoon)
Class: Cleric3/Any1
Stats: Wisdom 19, Charisma 16
Item: Reliquary Holy Symbol
Skills: Know(Religion) 5+
Trait: Spellgifted
Feats:
F - Heighten Spell
F - Earth Sense
1 - Earth Spell
3 - Extra Slot (9th Level)

At level 3, you have 7 turn attempts (3 + 3 Cha + 1 Reliquary Holy Symbol), so you can heighten a 2nd level spell to 10th level using Earth Spell. You have a CL of 4 for some spells, so you qualify for Extra Slot. You gain a slot one level lower than the maximum you can cast -- so a 9th level slot.


A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

I encourage you to prepare Miracle, and remember your low CL.

[Inevitability]

there are 3 of them however. even if you eliminate one of them, the other 2 will instagib you.

If someone can have Handle Animal pumped up to the max, there's no reason why another wouldn't have hide and move silently maxed. Or just crawl into a space where enormous dinosaurs can't reach into.

[toapat]

If someone can have Handle Animal pumped up to the max, there's no reason why another wouldn't have hide and move silently maxed. Or just crawl into a space where enormous dinosaurs can't reach into.

Battle titans have good Spot/Listen checks for minions of a level 4. You also cant cheese Hide/Move Silently in the same way you can with Handle animal.

simply put, Trying to fight Bubs at his epoch is suicidal without the direct answer, and without direct PvP he effectively invalidates everything at CR4 other then Allips (which invalidate half the game)


*snip*

PHB p171: Casterlevel: A caster can not cast a spell with lower caster level then when they would first learn the spell. its worded with weak Legal-fu, But it says outright you cant actually do that. Miracle takes a min CL of 17 to cast.

Interestingly, this renders Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, and <the third one> dead, because they dont superceed that rule like how Precocious Apprentice does.

[TuggyNE]

PHB p171: Casterlevel: A caster can not cast a spell with lower caster level then when they would first learn the spell. its worded with weak Legal-fu, But it says outright you cant actually do that. Miracle takes a min CL of 17 to cast.

It would be more accurate to say that miracle requires a minimum CL; exactly what that minimum CL is is not explicitly defined, or even given by much in the way of examples. 17 sounds reasonable, but is not guaranteed to be correct in all or even any cases.

RAW here is strictly dysfunctional.

[Callin]

Extra Book Uneartherd Arcana and going Fairly Simple with the build.

Agnar was considered a blessing in his clan when he was born. Touched by the stars they said. Great deeds would be done in his name and by his hand and his clan was right. While growing up and learning the ways of his Clan and ways to be a leader he was tasked with doing a Vigil at a holy place in the mountains. While there an Evil Spirit arose and though he slew the spirit he was touched and his spirit corrupted. He learned to deal with and control the taint on his soul but eventually he decided he needed to Adventure from his Clan to see if there was other ways to cleanse his soul and to perform his deeds. He hopes to return soon and longs for the windy mountains and fjords of home.

Race: Azurin CN
Class: Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/ Incarnate 1/ Crusader 2
Stats: as you see fit
Feats: Power Attack, Extra Rage, Necrocarnum Acolyte,
Soul Melds: Necrocarnum Shroud (with 1 Essentia Invested), Lucky Dice (1 Essentia Invested)
Stances: Martial Spirit (1 not chosen. saving for later for higher stance)
Maneuvers: Crusaders Strike (Saving 1 for later use to get a higher Maneuver, not getting more for Idiot Crusader)

I had fun building this once the idea got into my head it became more about building the character than the Full On Power of this thing. Though he is ok on the Power Side, can get a small bit of Utility with his 1 Soulmeld (will always meld Necrocarnum Shroud its his taint on his soul so to say), has a okayish amount of skill points but not very many good places to toss them. Can sort of be a Face. At level 6 he is going to be a Crusader 4 and will trade out Crusaders Strike for Revitalizing Strike, grab a new Stance Thicket of Blades, and another Maneuver Defensive Rebuke. To round out his 2 Maneuvers for Idiot Crusader. LATE in career he will take Extra Granted Maneuver and pick up Strike of Righteousness but thats not till lvl 19. Unless he prestiges out. Though he wont do it till after lvl 6.

I like this guy. He has RP potential and Combat Potential with just a dash of Utility to make him slightly not suck at noncombat stuff.

[Story]

It would be more accurate to say that miracle requires a minimum CL; exactly what that minimum CL is is not explicitly defined, or even given by much in the way of examples. 17 sounds reasonable, but is not guaranteed to be correct in all or even any cases.

RAW here is strictly dysfunctional.

Especially once you consider that a standard Archmage is only going to have CL15 while getting 9th level spells.

[dextercorvia]

PHB p171: Casterlevel: A caster can not cast a spell with lower caster level then when they would first learn the spell. its worded with weak Legal-fu, But it says outright you cant actually do that. Miracle takes a min CL of 17 to cast.

Interestingly, this renders Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, and <the third one> dead, because they dont superceed that rule like how Precocious Apprentice does.

I've read it. There is the point that it talks about choosing a lower caster level. There is also the fact that my character learns Miracle at 3rd level, so therefore can cast it with a CL of 3. If you are concerned that a cleric can't "learn" Miracle at level 3, then this just gets delayed to level 6 when he can take Extra Spell, and pick Miracle.


It would be more accurate to say that miracle requires a minimum CL; exactly what that minimum CL is is not explicitly defined, or even given by much in the way of examples. 17 sounds reasonable, but is not guaranteed to be correct in all or even any cases.

RAW here is strictly dysfunctional.

Bolded for emphasis. I posted this in response to kobold cheese, just showing that we can always get cheesier, not to rehash an old RAW argument. I believe that what you are saying was the intention of the passage in the PHB, just not the result. I also think they forgot about that passage when they printed so many other abilities later (2 of which you mention).

The likely intended reading contradicts so many other things, but the RAW reading does not. Still, in most games I follow my impression of the intended reading, with maybe a 1-2 level wiggle room for early entry. In theoretical discussions, the gloves are off.

[toapat]

It would be more accurate to say that miracle requires a minimum CL; exactly what that minimum CL is is not explicitly defined, or even given by much in the way of examples. 17 sounds reasonable, but is not guaranteed to be correct in all or even any cases.

RAW here is strictly dysfunctional.

The intention of the section is to say that the Min CL is determined by the specific class, however the original designers tended on the conservative instead of the redundant side.


Especially once you consider that a standard Archmage is only going to have CL15 while getting 9th level spells.

thats a problem with Archmage.


I've read it. There is the point that it talks about choosing a lower caster level. There is also the fact that my character learns Miracle at 3rd level, so therefore can cast it with a CL of 3. If you are concerned that a cleric can't "learn" Miracle at level 3, then this just gets delayed to level 6 when he can take Extra Spell, and pick Miracle.

you would have to take Wish, as the cleric already knows (at least by a literal translation) every spell on their spell list + domains.

Ok, actually i figured out the example that shows you cant gain spellcasting early:

Human Paladin 3, 2 Flaws:
1: Skill Knowledge: (Spellcraft), Magical Training, Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Precocious Aprentice
2: Extra Slot (Paladin) (because Extra Slot doesnt care what class you want to have that slot).

Paladins are always considered spellcasting classes, and they presumably know every spell on their spell list because the entry mentions nothing about them not knowing such. If the paladin has 11 wisdom, they have a spell slot 1 level early

Except nowhere in the rules does it allow for them to prepare a spell in that slot =

[dextercorvia]

you would have to take Wish, as the cleric already knows (at least by a literal translation) every spell on their spell list + domains.

If you accept that, then you don't need extra spell at all. I thought that is what you were arguing against (the cleric knowing all spells on their list).



Ok, actually i figured out the example that shows you cant gain spellcasting early:

Human Paladin 3, 2 Flaws:
1: Skill Knowledge: (Spellcraft), Magical Training, Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Precocious Aprentice
2: Extra Slot (Paladin) (because Extra Slot doesnt care what class you want to have that slot).

Paladins are always considered spellcasting classes, and they presumably know every spell on their spell list because the entry mentions nothing about them not knowing such. If the paladin has 11 wisdom, they have a spell slot 1 level early

Except nowhere in the rules does it allow for them to prepare a spell in that slot =

At best, this example shows that Paladins need more cheese than this to get spellcasting early. Just because they can't prepare anything in that slot doesn't mean they don't get it. As you said, Clerics have rules that let them prepare anything they can cast, and don't have the wonky late starting casting.

Also your build is illegal. You don't have a CL of 4 to take Extra Slot. (Add in Spellgifted to make it work.) Practiced Spellcaster has to be applied to a class. While Magical Training treats you as a CL 1 Wizard or CL X Wizard for determining spell effects, it does not give you a class level of Wizard. (You can get around this by taking Practiced Spellcaster (Paladin) which is a spellcasting class, even though you don't have spells yet.) Skill Knowledge is from an alternate system, and should not be assumed. (Apprentice Spellcaster would be better, anyway.)

[toapat]

If you accept that, then you don't need extra spell at all. I thought that is what you were arguing against (the cleric knowing all spells on their list).



At best, this example shows that Paladins need more cheese than this to get spellcasting early. Just because they can't prepare anything in that slot doesn't mean they don't get it. As you said, Clerics have rules that let them prepare anything they can cast, and don't have the wonky late starting casting.

Also your build is illegal. You don't have a CL of 4 to take Extra Slot. (Add in Spellgifted to make it work.) Practiced Spellcaster has to be applied to a class. While Magical Training treats you as a CL 1 Wizard or CL X Wizard for determining spell effects, it does not give you a class level of Wizard. (You can get around this by taking Practiced Spellcaster (Paladin) which is a spellcasting class, even though you don't have spells yet.) Skill Knowledge is from an alternate system, and should not be assumed. (Apprentice Spellcaster would be better, anyway.)

in core, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Assassin dont have their entire spell list at all levels, Paladins, Rangers, Clerics, and druids have everything. The rule is actually CL minimum restriction, and its stupidly worded. Paladin/Ranger are the only ways to Show that getting spell levels early is invalid, as there are no other delayed casters.

only 2 Feats grant Spellcraft as a class skills, and the other is not legal for paladin. Apprentice gives Know: The planes and UMD (both are more useful but not relevant to the objective)

Spellcasting Class is non-defined, and you count as a Wizard for casting those cantrips.

Practiced Spellcaster fails to restrict itself to an existent class that you have a proper level in (the Choose a class you possess is in the fluff.) or a class which provides its own spellcasting (IE: Mystic Theurge is despite all logic, a legal target for PS).

I did not provide a source of phantom Hitdie however which i will note as being technically in violation. The only classes i know of which would allow a 4th level unrestricted feat are the generic classes, which are considered just violation of TO.

[Spuddles]

Battle titans have good Spot/Listen checks for minions of a level 4. You also cant cheese Hide/Move Silently in the same way you can with Handle animal.

simply put, Trying to fight Bubs at his epoch is suicidal without the direct answer, and without direct PvP he effectively invalidates everything at CR4 other then Allips (which invalidate half the game)



PHB p171: Casterlevel: A caster can not cast a spell with lower caster level then when they would first learn the spell. its worded with weak Legal-fu, But it says outright you cant actually do that. Miracle takes a min CL of 17 to cast.

Interestingly, this renders Sanctum Spell, Earth Spell, and <the third one> dead, because they dont superceed that rule like how Precocious Apprentice does.

level 4 kobold has a hide check of
4 size untyped
5 shrink person/compression untyped
4 slight build untyped
10 chameleon psychic power, enhancement bonus
10 camouflage, druid spell, circumstance bonus
5 spell (cant remember which one, but gives everything looking into an area -5 on spot checks, cast on objects)
2 MW item circumstance

for a total of +40.

I think you can get more than that, as we havent touched competence bonus yet or skill ranks or anything else.

[toapat]

level 4 kobold has a hide check of
4 size untyped
5 shrink person/compression untyped
4 slight build untyped
10 chameleon psychic power, enhancement bonus
10 camouflage, druid spell, circumstance bonus
5 spell (cant remember which one, but gives everything looking into an area -5 on spot checks, cast on objects)
2 MW item circumstance

for a total of +40.

I think you can get more than that, as we havent touched competence bonus yet or skill ranks or anything else.

1: obey the restriction of the topic, Only what one character can do. Also, neither of them get WBLmancy because they cancel eachother out.

[Spuddles]

1: obey the restriction of the topic, Only what one character can do. Also, neither of them get WBLmancy because they cancel eachother out.

Ok.

Invisibility & shrink person on a kobold. That´s somewhere around +50 to hiding. Bubs will never see the little guy.

Also, if we´re ignoring WBLmancy, how the hell is marshal/commoner getting the gp to buy battletitans, much less riding dogs?