Ranged Weapon Question

[Cyranne]

So I'm starting to play a War/Kensai using a Composite Longbow as my signature weapon. While looking through my copy of "Complete Warrior" I noticed two ranged weapon abilities that I thought would be useful. The question I have is how would they interact if placed on the same Longbow


Explosive
Weapons with the explosive ability deal extra damage to anyone near the intended target. Each succesful hit with an explosive weapon deals 2d4 points of damage to all targets within a 5-foot burst (Reflex DC 15 half), including the original target. The explosive ability can be applied to any melee weapon (though the wielder may be subject to the extra damage) or ranged weapon. Projectile weapons so enhanced bestow the explosive ability on their ammuntion.



Knockback
Knockback weapons often emit a low, almost inaudible hum when drawn. Whenever a knockback weapon hits its target, it initiates a bull rush attempt in addition to dealing normal damage. To resolve the bull rush attemp, treat the projectile as a Medium creature with a +8 Strength bonus. The projectile doesn't provoke an attack of oppurtunity, and it always tries to push the target as far back as possible. Only ranged weapons can have the knockback ability, and the bestow it on their ammunition.

So if my kensai shoots a target with a Longbow with both Knockback and Explosive on it, which order do the two events happen in? Is the explosive damage dealt around the initial point of impact, or around the location that the target ends up at after being bull rushed? Also, if I also added the Exit Wound ability to the same signature longbow, is my DM going to kill me for making him calculate all of this?

[Thomas]

Yes, the DM will kill you.

It's all a DM call, what order the effects take place in.

[oriong]

Technically speaking you could 'prove' that they take place where the target is initially standing (since both abilities require that the target be 'hit' in order to function they go off instantaneously: when the target is hit.). The target will still take damage and the burst will be centered on the location where he was standing before the bull rush attempt. Somewhat shaky, but as close to a straight answer as is possible.

This is also the simpler solution if the GM wishes to house rule, otherwise these powers would simply never be combined.

[Zeb The Troll]

Yeah, DM call, but logic would have it that the explosion happens at the point of impact, not at the knockback location.

And as far as calculation, if I were DM I'd make you calculate it but I might kill you for taking too long to resolve it if you're not quick about it. :smallcool:

[Cyranne]

Technically speaking you could 'prove' that they take place where the target is initially standing (since both abilities require that the target be 'hit' in order to function they go off instantaneously: when the target is hit.). The target will still take damage and the burst will be centered on the location where he was standing before the bull rush attempt. Somewhat shaky, but as close to a straight answer as is possible.

This is also the simpler solution if the GM wishes to house rule, otherwise these powers would simply never be combined.

That's kind of what I figured, but it's late at night and I wasn't sure. Also, I've been playing too much MTG lately, so some part of my brain kept saying that it depends on which order I chose to put them on the stack in, and that didn't seem right at all :smallsmile:

[Zincorium]

It would happen simultaneously. The target is knocked back, and the explosion damages the area around where it was when you shot it.

And I, were I the DM, would glare at you if you made me do all the math, all the time, but that would be the case with any build.

[Roderick_BR]

I think the explosion happens first. Arrow hit, target explodes and is sent flying backwards.
Hmm.... That sounds awesome :)

The other way would sound weird. Arrow hit, the target is sent backwards, and when he hits the ground, he explodes.

[ExHunterEmerald]

You could always rule that they occur in the order you placed the enhancements on them.

Doesn't make much sense, but this IS a game with shapeshifting bears that can cast spells.

[Person_Man]

That's hilarious.

For extra fun, take Shock Trooper, so that you can use the Domino Rush ability as well, and get a free Trip attempt every time you Bull Rush an enemy into another enemy's square.

Then take Ranged Sunder and Combat Brute for Sundering Cleave, firing blunt arrows (Comp Adventurer, I think) made from adamantine.

The order of operations should be:

1) Fire at their weapon or an object they're using (Ranged Sunder).
2) Sunder their weapon, ignoring hardness (adamantine).
3) Deal extra damage to everyone within 5 feet (Explosive).
4) Bull Rush attempt on everyone who takes damage (Knockback).
5) Trip attempt on anyone Bull Rushed into another enemy's square (Shock Trooper).
6) Free follow up attack on target of initial Sunder (Combat Brute).
7) Deal extra damage to everyone within 5 feet (Explosive).
8) Bull Rush attempt on everyone who takes damage (Knockback).
9) Trip attempt on anyone Bull Rished into another enemy's square (Shock Trooper).

Any you get to do that for each arrow. Good times.

Though your round would probably take 5 minutes to resolve, and your DM would be well within their rights to murder you.

[the_tick_rules]

i dunno if explosive and exit wounds are compatable. Wouldn't explosive imply the arrow explodes and can't travel any more because it's been blown up?

[Piccamo]

Its a magical effect and as such could work in any number of ways. It could leave the arrow completely untouched, unless it says otherwise in the description of the effect.

[Zeb The Troll]

5) Trip attempt on anyone Bull Rushed into another enemy's square (Shock Trooper).How would you make a ranged trip attempt?

[clarkvalentine]

i dunno if explosive and exit wounds are compatable. Wouldn't explosive imply the arrow explodes and can't travel any more because it's been blown up?

Not if it's a shaped-charge arrowhead.


Ye gods, I really typed that, didn't I? :smallconfused:

[Piccamo]

How would you make a ranged trip attempt?

Look at the text on the feat Shock Trooper (found in Complete Warrior and on this site: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shock_Trooper,CW); specifically Domino Rush.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Wouldn't work, Piccamo.

The Shock Trooper feat applies to your character. As GM, I'd rule that Knockback doesn't stack with the Shock Trooper manouvers because it violates the spirit of the rule and doesn't quite work within the RAW.

Edit: I Ninja'd you, Zeb! Though your explanation gives more detail on the why.

[Zeb The Troll]

Look at the text on the feat Shock Trooper (found in Complete Warrior and on this site: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shock_Trooper,CW); (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Shock_Trooper,CW%29;) specifically Domino Rush.
Nowhere does it say that you can make that trip attempt at range. Trip, on the other hand specifically states that you must make a melee touch attack.

[SpiderBrigade]

Yah, it's too bad the the weapon is initiating the bullrush, not YOU. So Shock Trooper won't do that. You also can't bull rush all the enemies hit by the explosion, as the knockback ability applies to the target "hit by", not any creature "damaged by" the weapon.

Edit: simued, of course.

[Person_Man]

How would you make a ranged trip attempt?

The Domino Rush maneuver from Shock Trooper only requires that you make a successful Bull Rush attempt that forces a foe into another enemy's square. It makes no mention of the source of the Bull Rush, so presumably you could do it with a spell, feat, effect, or whatever. It works particurly well with a Goliath's Knockback (Races of Stone), Improved Trip, 5 levels of Warmind, and lots of reach.

You could also take a level of Master Thrower. They get Ranged Trip as a trick.

[That Lanky Bugger]

Quoth Domino Rush:


Domino Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt that forces a foe into the same square as another foe. You may make a free trip attempt against both foes at the same rime, and neither foe gets a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.

Quoth Bull Rush from the SRD:


Initiating a Bull Rush

First, you move into the defender’s space.

Emphasis added. Your arrow is not you, and thus this doesn't work by the RAW.

Edit for clarification: In this case, the Bull Rush made by the Knockback effectr is a special action caused by the magical effect on the arrow, and not caused by you directly. Much like one couldn't use the Improved Trip feat to make a follow-up melee attack if you successfully used Bolas to trip a foe.

[Zeb The Troll]

The Domino Rush maneuver from Shock Trooper only requires that you make a successful Bull Rush attempt that forces a foe into another enemy's square. It makes no mention of the source of the Bull Rush, so presumably you could do it with a spell, feat, effect, or whatever. It works particurly well with a Goliath's Knockback (Races of Stone), Improved Trip, 5 levels of Warmind, and lots of reach.

You could also take a level of Master Thrower. They get Ranged Trip as a trick.These things weren't mentioned in the list. All I asked was how you would make the ranged trip attempt.

A spell is unlikely because the character has already made an attack, so unless it's quickened (very unlikely given the abilities this list involves) I don't see this working, especially not in a loop as was described.

I've yet to see a feat or effect that allows a ranged trip with a projectile.

I'm not familiar with Warmind, so that would have to be explained, but I have my doubts.

Also, the poster of that list specified that the character was using arrows. Unlikely he'd be throwing them as the Trip Shot Thrown Weapon Trick requires.

[Piccamo]

Wouldn't work, Piccamo.

The Shock Trooper feat applies to your character. As GM, I'd rule that Knockback doesn't stack with the Shock Trooper manouvers because it violates the spirit of the rule and doesn't quite work within the RAW.

Edit: I Ninja'd you, Zeb! Though your explanation gives more detail on the why.
I agree its not in the spirit of the rules, but its not worded that way within those rules.


Nowhere does it say that you can make that trip attempt at range. Trip, on the other hand specifically states that you must make a melee touch attack.

You are also using a magical effect that says you can bull rush at range and Shock Trooper does not discuss range at all. The rules don't say my character is able to breathe oxygen, but that doesn't mean he can't.



The Domino Rush maneuver from Shock Trooper only requires that you make a successful Bull Rush attempt that forces a foe into another enemy's square. It makes no mention of the source of the Bull Rush, so presumably you could do it with a spell, feat, effect, or whatever. It works particurly well with a Goliath's Knockback (Races of Stone), Improved Trip, 5 levels of Warmind, and lots of reach.

You could also take a level of Master Thrower. They get Ranged Trip as a trick.

See this post for more description.

[Zeb The Troll]

Quote:

Wouldn't work, Piccamo.

The Shock Trooper feat applies to your character. As GM, I'd rule that Knockback doesn't stack with the Shock Trooper manouvers because it violates the spirit of the rule and doesn't quite work within the RAW.

Edit: I Ninja'd you, Zeb! Though your explanation gives more detail on the why.
I agree its not in the spirit of the rules, but its not worded that way within those rules.And here we disagree.

Quote:

Nowhere does it say that you can make that trip attempt at range. Trip, on the other hand specifically states that you must make a melee touch attack.You are also using a magical effect that says you can bull rush at range and Shock Trooper does not discuss range at all. The rules don't say my character is able to breathe oxygen, but that doesn't mean he can't.Exactly my point. The magical effect says you can do it at range. None of these other things do.


Quote:

The Domino Rush maneuver from Shock Trooper only requires that you make a successful Bull Rush attempt that forces a foe into another enemy's square. It makes no mention of the source of the Bull Rush, so presumably you could do it with a spell, feat, effect, or whatever. It works particurly well with a Goliath's Knockback (Races of Stone), Improved Trip, 5 levels of Warmind, and lots of reach.

You could also take a level of Master Thrower. They get Ranged Trip as a trick.

See this post for more description.I was responding to that post in particular.

[Piccamo]

So are you saying he shouldn't be able to bull rush at all then because the rules, which magic basically makes an exception to, say bull rush has to be accomplished from melee? The way the Shock Trooper feat works is bull rushing people into other people makes the people fall down. I don't think that goes against any rules in the game. The way it is worded:

To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt that forces a foe into the same square as another foe. You may make a free trip attempt against both foes at the same time, and neither foe gets a chance to trip you if your attempt fails.
Its not performed like an ordinary trip attempt. Most of the time when you trip people it is not at the conclusion of a bull rush.

[That Lanky Bugger]

My exception with this comes from the fact that both are special exceptions to the rules, but arising from vastly different circumstances.

Domino Rush is only initiated after a successful Bull Rush. Knockback is only initiated after a normal attack. In both cases, they're already special exceptions to the normal flow of the rules.

I suppose depending on your interpretation of the RAW, they could stack. However, since it's essentially up to interpretation because they were not written with each other in mind, most GMs would probably rule that they don't stack (if only to save themselves a headache). My interpretation of Domino Rush is that the character himself must be making the bull rush and not an effect caused by an enchantment. I suppose we should just agree to disagree at this point, since there's no strict ruling by the RAW which would decide things conclusively either way.

[Zeb The Troll]

So are you saying he shouldn't be able to bull rush at all then because the rules, which magic basically makes an exception to, say bull rush has to be accomplished from melee? The way the Shock Trooper feat works is bull rushing people into other people makes the people fall down. I don't think that goes against any rules in the game. The way it is worded:

Its not performed like an ordinary trip attempt. Most of the time when you trip people it is not at the conclusion of a bull rush.That's not what I'm saying at all. The description for this ranged Bull Rush is explicit. I never disputed the Bull Rush. It says in black and white that with this method a Bull Rush from range can be made. None of the things mentioned so far specifically state any such exemption to the melee touch attack for a trip. I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying no one's shown me one yet. At least not one for a projectile weapon such as a bow.

[Piccamo]

My exception with this comes from the fact that both are special exceptions to the rules, but arising from vastly different circumstances.

Domino Rush is only initiated after a successful Bull Rush. Knockback is only initiated after a normal attack. In both cases, they're already special exceptions to the normal flow of the rules.

I suppose depending on your interpretation of the RAW, they could stack. However, since it's essentially up to interpretation because they were not written with each other in mind, most GMs would probably rule that they don't stack (if only to save themselves a headache). My interpretation of Domino Rush is that the character himself must be making the bull rush and not an effect caused by an enchantment. I suppose we should just agree to disagree at this point, since there's no strict ruling by the RAW which would decide things conclusively either way.


By RAW nothing restricts this action. I can see both sides of the aisle for justification about whether or not it is in the spirit of the rules for Shocktrooper to work with this:
For: Shocktrooper's Domino Rush is because opponents are knocked into each other.
Against: Shocktrooper relies on the character himself being strong.
For: The enchantment gives the arrows a high effective strength.
Against: The extra strength is due to an explosion, not the arrow pushing anyone.
For: The explosion is strong enough to knock opponents into others.

And it can go on from there. I merely maintain that by RAW it works.


That's not what I'm saying at all. The description for this ranged Bull Rush is explicit. I never disputed the Bull Rush. It says in black and white that with this method a Bull Rush from range can be made. None of the things mentioned so far specifically state any such exemption to the melee touch attack for a trip. I'm not saying there isn't one, I'm saying no one's shown me one yet. At least not one for a projectile weapon such as a bow.

Shocktrooper is an exemption to needing a melee touch attack in order to trip. It is accomplished through bull rush, not necessarily through physical contact.

[That Lanky Bugger]

You forgot something Zeb keeps pointing out.

Against: A trip attack requires a melee touch attack roll. In this case, the effect might allow you to attempt the trip attack but you're not within the range to make the roll. Nothing in the Shock Trooper feat or Domino Rush description negates the requirement for the follow up trip attack to be melee. By the RAW's strictest definition you can USE Domino Rush after a Knockback, but in every case you're not close enough to attempt the melee touch attack roll.

Edit: Read the description for Bull Rush again. You move WITH the defender, remaining with Melee range the entire Bull Rush. There's nothing in Shock Trooper which exempts the melee requirement, it just adds the ability to trip your opponents if you push one into another.

[Piccamo]

So now are you suggesting that the Shock Trooper feat allows both opponents an attack of opportunity for the trip attempt and the tripper still needs to make an unarmed attack (assuming no Improved Trip)? It uses the words "Free Trip Attempt". What are you suggesting free means?

[Zeb The Troll]

Shocktrooper is an exemption to needing a melee touch attack in order to trip. It is accomplished through bull rush, not necessarily through physical contact.Heh? Shock Trooper does not state that the Bull Rush causes a trip. It says it allows a trip attempt. You still have to make that trip attempt normally. The benefit of Shock Trooper is that it allows more than one trip attempt in the same action.

[Piccamo]

Suddenly making the Shock Trooper feat entirely worthless by ignoring the word "Free". That would mean both opponents get attacks of opportunity and requiring another attack roll on each to do so.


You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
The trip attack is separate from the trip attempt. The attack is what allows you to make the attempt to begin with. The attempt is the opposed ability rolls.

[Zeb The Troll]

So now are you suggesting that the Shock Trooper feat allows both opponents an attack of opportunity for the trip attempt and the tripper still needs to make an unarmed attack (assuming no Improved Trip)? It uses the words "Free Trip Attempt". What are you suggesting free means?Actually, yes. Nothing in that description would cause me to consider removing any requirements not specifically stated. Free, in this context, means "as a free action". Of course if you have Improved Trip this becomes moot.

[Piccamo]

I expanded my post. At first I did not realize that we had differing ideas about what the trip attempt was versus the trip attack.

[Zeb The Troll]

Suddenly making the Shock Trooper feat entirely worthless by ignoring the word "Free". That would mean both opponents get attacks of opportunity and requiring another attack roll on each to do so.
Originally Posted by SRD

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.
The trip attack is separate from the trip attempt. The attack is what allows you to make the attempt to begin with. The attempt is the opposed ability rolls.Even as quoted by you, I don't see your side. The melee touch attack is a part of the overall attempt.


Player: I want to try (attempt) to trip this guy.
GM: Okay, make your touch attack.
Player: I hit AC 15.
GM: You hit. Now roll a STR check while I roll one for Baddy.
Player: I got a 22!
GM: You beat him. He's down. (Your attempt was successful.)Both pieces need to succeed before a trip attempt can succeed.

[Zeb The Troll]

I expanded my post. At first I did not realize that we had differing ideas about what the trip attempt was versus the trip attack.Hmm, and still they differ I see. Though I can't show black and white from the text, as written, that my interpretation is any more or less accurate than yours. It is simply my interpretation.

[Rigeld2]

Improved Trip [General]

Prerequisites

Int 13, Combat Expertise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise).
Benefit

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when you attempt to trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) an opponent while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent.
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Normal

Without this feat, you provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm) when you attempt to trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) an opponent while you are unarmed.
Special

At 6th level, a monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) may select Improved Trip as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the prerequisites.
A fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm) may select Improved Trip as one of his fighter bonus feats.

edit: added some emphasis

Do you see the words "trip attack" anywhere in there? No? Hmmmm...................






Maybe its because theres no such thing as a trip attack, its a trip attempt, and it encompasses everything from the attack roll to the opposed roll. Just maybe.

[Person_Man]

Wow, I think you guys are really overthinking this.

I think its allowed by the text. Others disagree.

It makes catgirl killling sense - if you shoot an explosive arrow at your enemy, it blows up, people are knocked away from the explosion, and if they're knocked into another enemy then they might fall prone.

But if a DM wanted to ban it because Shock Trooper is poorly worded, then that's a DM's perogative. But I would just say that most feats are poorly worded and can do things WotC never intended.

And that the proposed effect, while cool, isn't that powerful. First, it takes at 3 feats, +6 BAB, and an expensive magic item to pull off. Any sufficently large or high Str enemy will be rarely effected. And unless the enemy is standing next to other enemies, the Bull Rush+Trip combo won't occur.

I can think of at least a several different magic combinations that can do something similar, but more effectively. Why not give the archer some love?

[Cyranne]

I think the wording allows you the option to make the trip attempt, it doesn't provide you with the means to make one if the rules would otherwise prevent it. I am all for making my Ranged Kensai rule, but I don't think that works.

Also, I know the argument kind of moved past this point while I was asleep, but explosive and exit wound could be combined, since the explosive modiefier doesn't state that it destroys the ammunition. Also, since the modifier can be placed on melee weapons, which presumable aren't destroyed the first time they're used (note, that would be an interesting idea for a cursed weapon of sorts, has explosive, but destroys itself the first time the ability activates). I think under the right settings, and explosive/exit wounding arrow could rule, but I can also think of ones (like firing into a melee battle where there is possibilty for collateral damage) where I would regret having them on there.

And while I'm coming up with ranged weapons, why can't Keen be put onto a bow? As I have always taken it, Keen makes the weapon notably sharper( hence why only bladed melee weapons get it) allowing it to be easier to do alot of damage (i.e. crit easier) , but couldn't an argument be made that the bow would be passing it onto ammo, which is presumably sharp?

[Fawsto]

Hmmm... That sounds pretty cool! Arrow explodes and send the target flying back! I loved the scene! Haha!

hmm... Explosion than knocking back. My opinion.

[Zeb The Troll]

It makes catgirl killling sense - if you shoot an explosive arrow at your enemy, it blows up, people are knocked away from the explosion, and if they're knocked into another enemy then they might fall prone. Aye, but the idea of a feat is that the character knows something special about how to do something. Your description of events doesn't require any special knowledge and would imply that anyone using said arrows could cause the ruckus that ensues negating the need for the Shock Trooper tactic all around. Or is it your contention that only a Shock Trooper could fire the arrow in such a fashion as to cause the Domino Effect?