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Avicenex
2007-02-06, 06:34 AM
Maybe its too late and my brain isn't thinking right, but is there anything that prevents a Time Stop from being cast within a Time Stop? I checked the text and couldn't find anything saying you couldn't. Obviously there's only so many level 9 spells you can cast so it's limited, but it's still powerful. Thoughts? Facts? Rants?

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-06, 06:37 AM
You could, sure. But it wouldn't achieve much. The effects overlap, they don't stack.

It's like casting haste twice in quick succession.

In fact, it's exactly like casting haste twice in quick succession.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-06, 07:00 AM
Of course they overlap. But both give you the 1d4+1 rounds apparent time.

So you've got a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximize and three Time Stops.

Round 1, you cast Time Stop (Maximized by Rod) and get 5 rounds.
TS1 R1 you cast something
TS1 R2 you cast something
TS1 R3 you cast something
TS1 R4 you cast something
TS1 R5 you cast Time Stop (Maximized by Rod) and get 5 rounds.
TS2 R1 you cast something
TS2 R2 you cast something
TS2 R3 you cast something
TS2 R4 you cast something
TS2 R5 you cast Time Stop (Maximized by Rod) and get 5 rounds.
TS3 R1 you cast something
TS3 R2 you cast something
TS3 R3 you cast something
TS3 R4 you cast something
TS3 R5 you cast something

And, for the cost of 3 9th level spell slots and 3 charges from a Greater Rod of Maximize Spell, you get 13 fully useable rounds and three move actions (unless a Sorcerer).

If you have Sudden Quicken as well, you can inarguably get Time Stop in at least twice (once cast normal in the base round, once Quickened).

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-06, 07:06 AM
Of course, there's only so much you can do during the thirteen rounds of apparent time and you've just wasted three of your highest level spell slots on a single trick.

Sir_Ophiuchus
2007-02-06, 08:18 AM
Besides, if you have a Greater Metamagic Rod of Maximise:


a) You really should have better things to do with it.

b) Your DM should have realised by now what a bad idea putting it in the game was.

Khantalas
2007-02-06, 08:23 AM
Besides, your metabolism shouldn't be able to handle such high speeds.

Of course, this is magic. You can add the winged template to pigs.

the_tick_rules
2007-02-06, 10:38 AM
well if you wanna use up all your 9th level slots at once or burn up terribly expensive rods and wands like their crack. You could, but your character better have something worth that much. Also in 3.5 there's limits on what you can do during time stop, it's not as much as 3.0.

goat
2007-02-06, 01:45 PM
Can you run over, put a bag of holding on the BBEGs head and then climb into position to drop a portable hole on them?

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-06, 01:51 PM
goat: yes, yes you can. You can also set a Staff of power to go retributive strike at the same time within the bag of holding, up the BBEG's nose. CAUTION: Your DM's head may explode.

I have players who could do scary things in 13 rounds of timestop. Do remember that any spell with a duration other than "instantaneous" is valid. This includes most acid spells, Delayed blast fireball, a bunch of stuff from the spell compendium, Summon Elemental Monolith, and so forth and so on. The crew will wake up to one giant explosion of summoning and firey death. Like others have said, it takes a lot of resources, but it's good for the final fight.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-06, 03:57 PM
Boom.

I mean come on guys, in that time, you can cast up to 28, or at least 13, spells! What more do you want, but to dump everything on one poor enermy!?

Lessee... 3 used time stops, likely 5 9th level spell slots, 6 8th, 7 7'th.

So you can blast your poor enemies with 6 delayed blast fireballs (0.o!), acid fog, forcecage, incendiary cloud, otto's, bigby's crushing fist.

Or, you could just buff yourself...

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-06, 04:02 PM
It gets worse with Temporal Acceleration, aka psionic time stop. A Psion 19 can cast a persistent version of it, which lasts 24 hours, [B]which gives them enough time to recover those power points and cast it again.[B] If you're an Elan, you can practically live in one of these things - no food/water requirement, and immortal. Upending a decanter of endless water while doing this is fun.

Darkshade
2007-02-06, 04:27 PM
you can't actually make a Time Stop persistent, it's duration is apparent time, not real time, you speed up gaining a set amount of extra time, but the spell doesnt really last 1d4+1 rounds to begin with, technically it's duration should be instantaneous. It only seems like 1d4+1 rounds. Really no spell with "see text" as part of its duration line should be able to be made persistent.
also maximize doesnt work since its not technically a variable numeric effect, the feat specifies things like damage and targets and hit points cured, it is not meant to effect duration percieved or otherwise.

honestly you could argue it either way but if you win an argument against one of these it discludes the possiblity of the other one working, if it is duration then it cant be maximized, if its not then it cant be persistent

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-06, 04:39 PM
Darkshade, the psionic version is different and can be persisted.

And maximize is not maximizing the spells duration its maximizing a variable numeric effect of the spell. You can't extend a timestop but you can maximize it. If you could extend a tiesetop then you could persist it.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-06, 05:07 PM
First, I am currently unaware of the existence of a "Persistent Power" Metapsionic feat or other such method of Persisting a psionic power. Perhaps I'm overlooking a source?

Second, I don't see what makes temporal acceleration persistable while time stop isn't.

Avicenex
2007-02-06, 05:10 PM
Burn Metamagic rods? You could burn them, but then you could also set fire to your Mantle of Spell Resistance. It's just not a very good idea.

"Rods are scepterlike devices that have unique magical powers and do not usually have charges" (Bold mine for emphasis)
"The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are maximized as though using the Maximize Spell feat."

I can think of few things better than Time Stop to maximize.
Also, Delay Spell metamagic was made for Time Stop. You have 5 spells go off as soon as your Time Stop is over. "Make 5 Fortitude saves or die" is fun stuff.

Overlaping isn't quite as fun as Time Stop within a Time Stop would be... but either way, fun stuff.

daggaz
2007-02-06, 05:34 PM
Erm... maybe Im dumb here, but if they overlap, wouldn't that mean that the spell just kinda absorbs itself if cast within the same period? If you are ending up with xd4+x rounds of timestop, it seems to me like they are stacking... IE (1d4+1)+(1d4+1)+(1d4+1)+etc.. = xd4+x

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 05:39 PM
So you can blast your poor enemies with 6 delayed blast fireballs (0.o!), acid fog, forcecage, incendiary cloud, otto's, bigby's crushing fist.
...
I thought there was a clause that you couldnt put someone inside an AoE while you were Time Stopped, but there isnt. So Greater Celerity/Time Stop/Dimensional Anchor/Cloudkill/Forcecage is a still a killer combo.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-02-06, 05:48 PM
...
I just had the worst idea for how to use a time stop ever.

Round one: Free action: Say "Toki wo tomare!" Cast an illusion spell to invert the environment's colors. Say "Za warudo!"
Round two: Using a quickened haste, the speed enhancement, flick of the wrist, quick draw, and so forth, throw a ton of daggers at someone.
Round three: Repeat round two.
Round four: Use major creation to create a Huge or larger size construct mount over the knife'd enemy.
Last round: Dimension door onto the top of said mount. Lean back and scream "Wryyyyyyyyyyyyy!"

Only problem I've found is that I'd have to be a vampire first...

Gamebird
2007-02-06, 06:05 PM
No, no. You'd have to cast the Time Stop(s), pull out Marvelous Pigments, then paint moustaches and goatees on all your companion's faces. Then return to your previous position and pretend nothing happened. Might need to paint yourself too, lest they get suspicious.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-06, 06:05 PM
You can't attack someone while in a Time Stop. Nor can you conjure anything above an opponent's head (it must be on the ground or in your hand or something).

Gamebird
2007-02-06, 06:06 PM
But could you paint a moustache on their face? That's the burning question I'd have to have answered.

Winged One
2007-02-06, 06:19 PM
It's apparantly possible, if you feel like eating away all of your 9th level spells in one encounter. There are some situations that justify such tactics. Psions are famous for shining in them.

Why does this thread remind me of the last level of Trauma Center?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 06:28 PM
Maximized, Empowered Timestop lasts 7 rounds. Maximized, Empowered, Extended Timestop lasts 14 rounds.

...why cast it more than once?

DaMullet
2007-02-06, 06:57 PM
Well, considering you can only use one rod per casting, and Time Stop is 9th level, you need to have a very long list of specific feats with their own long lists of prerequisite feats to be able to pull that last one off.

A specific wizard build might be able to handle that, but not before level 18 at the earliest.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-06, 07:01 PM
You can't extend it Fax. Its duration is instantaneous while its effect is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 07:04 PM
You can't extend it Fax. Its duration is instantaneous while its effect is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.

Alright, granted. You can still Maximize and Empower it though, for seven rounds.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-06, 07:06 PM
Well, considering you can only use one rod per casting, and Time Stop is 9th level, you need to have a very long list of specific feats with their own long lists of prerequisite feats to be able to pull that last one off.

A specific wizard build might be able to handle that, but not before level 18 at the earliest.

Well, if you don't mind it being a 1/day trick...

1: Sudden Extend
3: Sudden Maximize
5 (Wizard Bonus): Sudden Empower


You can't extend it Fax. Its duration is instantaneous while its effect is 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time.
Can I get a source on this?

The duration does say it's "Apparent" time, but it doesn't really define what that means. And nowhere in the description is the word "Instantaneous" ever used.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-06, 07:07 PM
Or just buy a rod of one of the 3 and save a feat.

Jack_Simth
2007-02-06, 10:22 PM
Well, if you don't mind it being a 1/day trick...

1: Sudden Extend
3: Sudden Maximize
5 (Wizard Bonus): Sudden Empower


Can I get a source on this?

The duration does say it's "Apparent" time, but it doesn't really define what that means. And nowhere in the description is the word "Instantaneous" ever used.
You only find that in the FAQ....

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-06, 10:30 PM
I just checked the FAQ. The phrase "time stop" doesn't even appear, if my pdf software is to be believed.

I also Googled WotC's site in case it was in a "Rules of the Game" article. Still couldn't find it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-06, 11:02 PM
Errata? I remember seeing it somewhere but I don't remember where.

Yuki Akuma
2007-02-07, 03:09 AM
Errata? I remember seeing it somewhere but I don't remember where.

If it was errata it would be reflected in the SRD.

daggaz
2007-02-07, 03:11 AM
still nobody answered my question about the difference between a stacked and an overlapped timestop.

Personally, I feel like if you use your last round in timestop to cast another timestop, and you end up with 2d4+4 rounds of apparent time, then the spell is stacking. If it were overlapping, I would think casting timestop while timestopped would have no effect. Please correct me.

Jack Mann
2007-02-07, 03:22 AM
Not quite. See, let's assume you cast your first timestop and got three rounds of apparent time.

Round One: You cast time stop again, for four rounds of apparent time.
Round Two: You're now enjoying the benefits of both timestops.
Round Three: The same
Round Four: Now the first one is gone, but the second is still going, now on round three.
Round Five: The last of your four rounds from the second timestop.

See how that works? Two rounds of the first and second timestops are occurring at the same time. However, they both have the same effect; slowing time down for you. When you cast the second timestop, you're already in Wizard Time (tm), so it doesn't have any effect until the first one wears off.

daggaz
2007-02-07, 11:51 AM
ahh ok that makes sense. thanks.

AngelSword
2007-02-08, 01:27 AM
:smalleek: My mind, it is blown. Whether or not it stacks, the implications hurt my brain. The thought of fracturing already fractured time...

Y'know, instead of trying to work out the logistics of how it works, why not just say that the caster folds him/herself out of the Space-Time Continuum, assuming you view the spell as possible Chronomancy.

However, reading the description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm), you aren't so much affecting time, as you are speeding yourself to ludicrous speeds. Given that, attempting to stack the spell is a very bad idea (unless you're undead or made of metal), as I doubt the human(oid) heart can handle such speeds.

Rigeld2
2007-02-08, 07:10 AM
THEYVE GONE PLAID!

/derail