There's a lot more Miko support than I'd have thought.

[White Rook]

I've been reading the comic since #50 but this is my first time ever at the forum. I was really surprised to see all the Miko fans, especially outspoken in response to her getting rocked so hard by Roy. I just don't know, I've never been able to stand Miko. In every comic she's been in, I just always wished Roy would do something like what he just did. So what is it? What makes Miko so great and non-beggingtobeslapped?

[Elliot Kane]

Good question. I had to think about this one for a bit.

I think I like her because she's a fascinating character, and I'm genuinely interested in seeing what she will do next. While characters like Xykon make me laugh, and the OOTS as a whole are well designed characters, none of them are exactly on a journey in terms of who they are.

Every other character in the story may have advanced levels since the story began, but their personalities & aspirations are unchanged from first to last. We know that Roy will always complain a lot, then do the right thing; V will continue to seek arcane power; Belkar will be a vicious little... halfling... etc.

But Miko changes. It may not be in ways that are good for her or the OOTS, but I find her story the least predictable of any character in the comic, and thus the most interesting.

That's why I personally like Miko :)

[Morty]

I don't understand it myself. For me, Miko represents personality traits I despise the most- self-righteousness, complete inability to admit that she could be wrong, treating people like worse than her because they aren't LG paladins, and judging everyone and everything by one narrow moralty code without stopping to think that it may not be the best solution.
And no, Miko hasn't changed. She developed in one of the possible ways. She's still self-righteous and 'better-than-you', plus now she's also delusional.

[White Rook]

Yeah, the whole traditional Asian "My honor commands me to do such and such" drives me freakin nuts. I thought the last few comics have been an interesting change in her story arc, but I can't stand her any more because of it.

There should be more Elan fans instead, I feel. His Dashing Swordsman change makes me ever so happy.

[lord_khaine]

nahh, just becasue he is stronger now doesnt mean he is more interesting.

[Elfwitch]

I like Miko because she is an interesting character. She is so driven to try and be the best paladin. She has some flaws that made her more interesting to me than some of the other characters.

I knew that if she could not find some way to balance the good with the law and duty with compasion that she would eventually destroy herself.

I like my villians to be more than a moustache twirling evil genius who always make to complicated a plan.

Miko is not evil for evil sake she really believes in what she is doing. She believes that she is doing good and has done good and I believe she could still do good.

I also felt sorry for her mainly because I feel being a paladin is the hardest class to be. Often your hands get tied by the non clear poorly written code in the PHB and then you have to deal withother people opinions on what is good and what is evil.

[toysailor]

nahh, just becasue he is stronger now doesnt mean he is more interesting.

If anything, he sold out as a "munchkin" :smalltongue:

[White Rook]

For us extremely casual DnD players, what exactly is a munchkin?

[fwiffo]

For us extremely casual DnD players, what exactly is a munchkin?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29

[White Rook]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_%28role-playing_games%29

So does that mean I could never be a Dashing Swordsman without being frowned upon? :smallfrown:

[Tilian]

So what is it? What makes Miko so great and non-beggingtobeslapped?

Well, I don't find Miko's more visible personality traits to be positive ones in general and I don't find her a particularly likable person, yet I've come to love the character.

She's messed up. She's someone who didn't get to have a life growing up, she's painfully naive about the world, and yet she still holds herself to an impossibly high ideal. It was always a tragedy waiting to happen. She so wants to be Good, yet she often shows little understanding of just what Good is. Sometimes I doubt she even understands WHY she's striving for Good and is simply doing as she has been taught to do. In many ways she's more childish than Elan, except she has a terrible amount of power and sway(well, did) at her disposal.

I think you'll find that a lot of Miko fans actually think she should be punished for what she has done, rather than just claim that she's been treated unfairly. Personally I'm hoping for a hard road to redemption, something that shows she can become a better person. She has amazing potential to be a true hero, but she has a long way to go before she's there.

[fwiffo]

So does that mean I could never be a Dashing Swordsman without being frowned upon? :smallfrown:

Depends. I don't view Elan's class as munchkinism. He was always underpowered compared to his team-mates, ever since the first strip (well, maybe second strip, which deals with Elan specifically). As bards go, he is not a shining example of one - so getting a little boost with a class that is pretty consistent with advantages of his build is not much of a roll-playing.

Oh, and please don't pick on Miko fans. There are hundreds of threads on the subject of her. This forum is fairly peaceful, and the closest it comes to flame wars is endless long Miko debates. Plus, it is not exactly sporting to pick on them at this time, when Miko has fallen this far. While they might be througly deluded about object of their admiration, a lot of them shown surprising degree of flexibility in adjusting to events in 406-409.

[Spiral]

I liked her because she seems to want to be good, her problem is she really doesn't understand how to do it. Because of that she follows the rules as closely as possible, since that's all she has to go on. She seemed willing to do the right thing even if it made her life more difficult. It's a trait that buys a lot of slack with me. While serving Shojo she was a good ally in my eyes, even though I really didn't like the guy myself, but his betrayal meant she had to start to rely on her own judgement, and it really is terrible judgement. She crossed a line when she attacked Hinjo, since he had done nothing wrong, but I still see her as being a character with a great deal of potential for good if she can be taught what it actually means.

[Lord Zentei]

I don't understand it myself. For me, Miko represents personality traits I despise the most- self-righteousness, complete inability to admit that she could be wrong, treating people like worse than her because they aren't LG paladins, and judging everyone and everything by one narrow moralty code without stopping to think that it may not be the best solution.
And no, Miko hasn't changed. She developed in one of the possible ways. She's still self-righteous and 'better-than-you', plus now she's also delusional.

Her over-the topness in that regard is what I found humerous about the character; that and her unintentional jokes that result from her seriousness (smite evil, not bump uglies; matress tag, etc, etc). I don't really like megalomanic wannabe dictators either, but again, it is Xykon's over-the-topness there that I find amusing no less than his sarcasm.

She has changed; that is, in the sense she has developed as a character. The changes are logical with reference to her initial character, of course, but anything else would be poor writing.

[Alfryd]

Let me try to explain, if not why Miko has fans, at least why she attracts so much discussion and a certain degree of condolences.

As far as I can tell, Miko is the only major character in the story to be introduced after the point where Rich actually *had* a detailed story fleshed out and ready for the execution. The Linear Guild, Team Evil and the OotS themselves all just kinda popped up back in the days when OotS was a running-gag strip free from the encumbrances of plot or character growth. Consequently, Miko is the only character that he has had detailed control over from day one without having to worry about retcon concerns.

I've sworn off defending Miko with any tremendous vigour these days, but I've detailed her redeeming virtues at length in the thread here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4911)


Some of the other main characters are controversial. Some of them are interesting. Some of them kick ass. And some of them are sympathetic. Miko is the only character to combine all of the above in one tight and curvy package.



Durkon, though highly sympathetic, has all the personality of a turnip.

V is, technically speaking, a pompous, egomaniacal blowhard. Despite redeeming moments of conscientious intellect, his chief gimmick is an ability to pontificate endlessly on the subject of how awesome he is. Thankfully, V is so overblown in this respect that not even the fans think to take him seriously.

Even before his prophecy emerged, Elan is and always has been the living proof it is better to be lucky than smart. I have very little interest in what happens to him, for the simple reason that the laws of plot dictate he emerge beaming like sunshine and smelling like roses no matter how bad he ****s up. By association, even nominal interest in Haley confers upon both complete immunity to crippling harm from now 'til death do them part, many decades hence engirdled by legions of fat grandchildren.

Roy has a similar season pass for the storyline, so despite being a mildly interesting, moderately sympathetic and slightly controversial character, I'm not too engrossed by his predicament and/or predicaments. This comic would have to get a lot darker before permanently 'offing it's principle protagonist.

Belkar generates as much pathos as appendicitis. Next.

The MitD is not, strictly speaking, a character. He is something that *happens* to characters.

I don't think anyone's unclear on Xykon's basic motivation or final destination. Nale is *defined* as a welter of cliches devoid of notable subtext or novelty. Sabine and Celia, I'm not averse to. Boobs. Where was I? Oh yes!

Redcloak actually interests me a little bit, insofar as he initially came across as borderline Evil and has shown a spark or two of spunk lately. Thog too. But we don't really see enough of redeeming merit to get too attached.

Shojo had great potential for character growth, cut regretably short by being cut regretably short. (But we don't talk about that here.)

Hinjo is all squeaky clean! Watch him shine! *ting*


So that just leaves one character, and I'll just mention one incident to argue her case. It's often overlooked- the fans barely notice it. In fairness, Miko barely seems to notice.
It's that scene where she bursts from the flaming scaffolds, wreathed in flame, sheltering the huddled figure of a reigning monarch, before she humbly entreats him to discharge her charges' debts.
Not ringing any bells?
That's because it happened off-panel. This doesn't even get a cutscene- oh no, it's no big deal. Strictly business. Average daily fare. Entirely run-of the-mill selfless awesomenosity.
She's just a good girl at heart who's got into a career that may happen to involve a little casual genocide. Gotta love that.

.

[Jabberwocky]

Why I like Miko? Because of her big potential in being an adversary of OotS and still remaining Good. Because of how complicated and multifacetted she is. Because of her having fallen down and being up to her neck in crap. And yes, because of her flaws, because of her being unbearable, because of her being troubled by inner incapacity to view the world normally, like others do. Call it sympathy.

Well, actually, I played a similar character once - a NG bard suffering from bipolar disorder (or how maniodepressivity is called in English). She was lucky because her husband (long evenings of roleplaying) managed to keep her in touch with reality but without his support she would have been doomed. Innerly, I mean. So ... much, much sympathy for Miko.

[Morty]

Some of the other main characters are controversial. Some of them are interesting. Some of them kick ass. And some of them are sympathetic. Miko is the only character to combine all of the above in one tight and curvy package.
Since when Miko is sympathethic? As I said before, her personality traits makes her highly repulsive. I'd prefer to meet any of OOTS than Miko.
Your criticisms of other main characters are mostly true, but the facts that other character has flaws doesn't redeem Miko.

[Iranon]

What first endeared her to me was that, despite her perceived high-and-mighty attitude, her actions up to 251 were VERY accomodating by any objective standard.

Certainly not how I would handle possibly dangerous criminals.

Although it showcases she enjoys killing more than she perhaps should, her expression of savage joy after the 'fight' with the ogres in 215 also intrigued me - made me wonder what she'd be like without a restrictive code of conduct.

It's not obvious just how much of the events prior to the explosion of the inn she knew about, but she seems to draw the right conclusions. In the light of that and V's happiness about her apparent death just after her daring rescue operation (for the need of which she blames the Order), the lecture she gives them is more cute than anything else.

After Roy's reaction to her opening up, and the other's approval of it, things are too poisoned between them - and Miko still behaves honourably:
Given that they break parole in 251, she would probably have been within her rights to kill them. She didn't, and her look of disappointment rather than satisfaction as she indeed drags them to Azure City in chains is telling.

[Lord of the Helms]

What makes Miko so great and non-beggingtobeslapped?

That's what I love about her. I would never want to meet anyone like her IRL. However, she is an extremely effective antagonist. I could not help laughing at the countless occasions she got what was coming to her (Roy's putting her down back in 250-ish, Belkar's Saake-assault, the MitD incident - oh the hilarity!).

[DiscountNinja]

I'm not a Miko hater or a fan, to be honest - she makes a very effective antagonist, and, I feel, is the most people like character out of everyone - she has flaws which make me respect her as a person / character, despite her hubris putting me off her personality

[Dectilon]

She's obviously insane, and that can be a good quality in a antagonist. Also, she's ridiculously strong, which is a funny quality to give a character that drives everyone nuts. : )
I think the answer to "What makes Miko so great and non-beggingtobeslapped?" is that if you do slap her you know she'll filet you in a matter of seconds, so you don't : )

Besides, it's just as illogical to support an extremely peeved character as to support an extremely evil character, and most people don't have a problem with that : P

[Silverlocke980]

I agree with you, my friend, and don't understand why Miko shouldn't be beaten every day of the week. It's not that I haven't heard the arguments- it's just I don't believe them.

Miko should be slapped. Every day. Hard.

But that's the beauty of the Internet- opinions! Everyone has that right- so I'll hold to mine, everybody else can hold to theirs.

[Jabberwocky]

Miko should be slapped. Every day. Hard.
True. For her own good. But certainly not laughed at, beaten into unconsciousness or verbally abused. That'll make things only worse.

[Grasilich]

I think it can be attributed to the following factors (in order of importance):

1) Girl (with high 'charisma')
2) Asian
3) Paladin

She was honestly instantly popular from the moment Roy first knocked off her hood. I think that her fanclub was already formed just before they went in to save the dirt farmers. Honestly, at that point, what else had Miko done other than be slightly snarky to warrant a fanclub? It all comes down to those three factors.

[atteSmythe]

In fairness, she'd been an enigmatic, lawful-good antagonist to an also-good group of adventurers. That's a strong and interesting conflict.

[Jabberwocky]

4) (at least for me) - Complicated character with big development potential who raises hell in good intent of doing the right thing and who then messes things up spectacularly.

[Demented]

That sounds more like a 4 (more complicated, at any rate), 5 (development potential), 6 (raises hell), 3b (Paladin), and 7 (messes things up spectacularly).

[Alfryd]

Since when Miko is sympathethic?
I'm assuming you'v read the link I gave, in which case I won't argue the point any farther. If not, please follow the link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4911).

...but the facts that other character has flaws doesn't redeem Miko.
It's not that the characters are flawed, it's that they're not as engrossing. Hinjo is frightfully close to a perfect human being, so far as we can see, but he's not a fraction as interesting, mostly for that very reason.

Roy's putting her down back in 250-ish, Belkar's Saake-assault, the MitD incident - oh the hilarity!
I must also confess to a certain schadenfreude here- except with the Saake. That was too much. She has gotten off a few legitimate cracks of her own, though.

She was honestly instantly popular from the moment Roy first knocked off her hood.
Actually, by and large she was heaped with bile, scorn and derision.

I think that her fanclub was already formed just before they went in to save the dirt farmers.
Actually, as far as I can recall it only formed well subsequent to 251.

[The Glitter Ninja]

Miko is the only character to combine all of the above in one tight and curvy package.

I'm certainly not trying to be a jerk here, but... she's a stick figure. I'm not seeing a lot of "curvy" with her.


It's that scene where she bursts from the flaming scaffolds, wreathed in flame, sheltering the huddled figure of a reigning monarch, before she humbly entreats him to discharge her charges' debts.
Not ringing any bells?
That's because it happened off-panel.

Er. Refresh my memory? Which strip did this happen off-panel? Just give me the number, I can find it, no link needed.

As for the original question, I'm not a fan of Miko. I didn't get to actively disliking her until I read one too many flame wars about how she was great and how everyone else in the OOtS was horrible. I can't understand people who read the strip while hating most/all the main characters, and hoping some of them die by Miko's hand.

Also, people seemed to deliberately misinterpret things that happened just to make Miko look good; a good example is when Miko fell, and we saw several people in the forums insist she did NOT fall. I confess that the attitude of some Miko fans is what made me wish the character never existed. As for the character, it's a good one in that she's well-crafted, interesting, active, and important to the plot.

[Marller]

Er. Refresh my memory? Which strip did this happen off-panel? Just give me the number, I can find it, no link needed.
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0246.html) is the thing with the king stated.

[Stephen_E]

I'd note that the Gratitude the King has for been saved may be refering to OotS's getting everyone out of the Inn before it blewup. The daring rescue by Miko may well exist only in a few peoples minds (Rich's not been one of them).

I actaully like Miko, but for all the reasons that many hate her, and many of her fan club don't agree with.

She has always been a beautiful example of the merciless fanatical Paladin that is a great character, but that should almost never be allowed as a PC. She gives me a beautiful example to point to a player and say "If you play your Paladin anything like Miko you lose him/her. No! I don't care how well you'll roleplay the character".

Stephen

[Alfryd]

...may be refering to OotS's getting everyone out of the Inn before it blewup.
...ah, no. The specific phrase used is 'in gratitude for being rescued.'

The daring rescue by Miko may well exist only in a few peoples minds (Rich's not been one of them).
Given the building was on fire at the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html), and perhaps a minute or so elapsed before the explosion, it is difficult to imagine a non-daring rescue on Miko's part. Rich also specifically mentions she 'probably respected the king of somewhere, though that was off-panel.'
It's just an example of Miko's general conundrum- if you put 2 & 2 together, she can come across as a rather admirable character. But very few fans do so.

I'm not seeing a lot of "curvy".
Rich's bodies are gender-specific, 'cepting V. And there is the 'skinny, uptight ass' mentioned. And damnit, something has to explain that cha!

...we saw several people in the forums insist she did NOT fall.
I've seen plenty claiming she should have fallen for bisecting Sam and Pa. The wheel keeps turnin'.

[Charles Phipps]

Well anime has conditioned a lot of people to think that female dogness is not something that really necessitates a very bad problem. Take note that the majority of Miko's fans dismissed her self-righteousness in the same way that Belkar's fans dismiss his tendency to stab people (or the same way Black Mage killed Onion Kid's parents). It's what makes the character funny.

Honestly, I felt the two sides of the extremes in this debate sort of missed the point with Miko. The people who couldn't stand Miko seemed to be unable to grasp that one can love a character in fiction that one couldn't stand in real life. Honestly though, I have plenty of friends who are utterly abrasive. The people who love her to death seem to fail to grasp that Miko WASN'T just a uncharismatic paladin but she was a ROTTEN one right up until the end.

Right up until she killed Hinjo take on Miko was that she was a character that was going to learn the meaning of being a better paladin. I also oddly felt the Order of the Stick were her only real friends but in retrospect, that was me missing that not even Elan liked her.

As for "Hot Miko" that was the work of fanart...

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f350/Willowhugger/PortraitbyYosai.jpg