Underrated spells

[ace rooster]

I like using spells in creative ways that they were not really designed for, and work much better than the fluff would suggest. For example:

Tiny hut. This spell gives you and all in a 20ft radius total concealment, which true seeing does not penetrate. In some cases it may as well be mass greater invisibility, and as a level 3 it can be quickened with a lesser rod. It is suggested as a location for R and R, but is far more effective as an in combat defense. The protection from concentration checks caused by the weather, and the ability to read scrolls in the dark without another action are just bonuses.

Blur. Alright as a defense, 20%, but epic on a sniper. It allows them to snipe, anywhere, anywhen. Crossing open ground is easy with this spell, impossible without. Rangers get a less effective version at 13th level.

What are your favorite spells for use in slightly off the wall ways?

[Cruiser1]

What are your favorite spells for use in slightly off the wall ways?
Create Water: See invisible creatures and objects briefly, by casting a downpour over a wide area within range.
Bestow Curse: 100% effective birth control by casting on yourself with the "target is rendered sterile" option from BoVD.

[Curmudgeon]

This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8.If you do the math, the effect of +2 to STR and an 8x multiplication of gear weight has the same effect as if they didn't change size but their load tripled. Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) is good for three uses:

Monks and other characters who carry next to nothing, so it's still a Light load.
Armored characters who go from Medium to Heavy encumbrance, which imposes no additional penalties. (My guess: that's really the only case the spell was designed for.)
Enemies, to make them encumbered.

If you pay attention to encumbrance, Enlarge Person is only a halfway decent buff spell. But that third use as an offensive spell makes it more versatile than most people think. Hit a lightly-loaded enemy with that spell, indoors, and you may take them out of most of the combat. Most of the time that'll put them into medium encumbrance, slowing them down (to about 69% of normal speed). But being taller than ceiling height will mean squeezing rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) apply: double movement cost penalties, with a net reduction to about 34% of their normal speed. They'll have another -4 to attack and AC, on top of the -1 from size increase. And, with double movement cost penalties, they can't take 5' steps. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

There's always the list of aspect of the wolf applications that don't get looked at as much. For example, reduce animal can be combined with it to give you what is effectively an hours/level reduce person effect, which is not bad at all, even when you consider the fact that this likely does not stack with small wild shape forms. Another interesting spell is acorn of far travel, not because its cheesy uses are undocumented, but because its standard uses are. I tend to only see the thing in terms of ridiculous hathran and planar trait based plans, but it's an incredibly long duration spell that can improve some spells that see a bit of play.

[Segev]

Unseen Servant is remarkably versatile, if you think seriously about all the things characters can do that require no ranks in skills and no checks at all.

They can read - even if they can't speak - and they can write. They can also listen to conversations that are DC 10 or lower to hear. Send them to look over somebody's shoulder, or listen in, and then come back to write what they heard. Worse, Explosive Runes are triggered by reading. Hand a half dozen Unseen Servants each a piece of paper with Explosive Runes on it, and order them to walk up next to your victim and read them.

They also can haul and fetch and carry. This sounds normal, but recall that it takes minimal but extant actions to pick things up, while it takes a free action to hand things off. Those expensive thrown weapons of yours can be picked up and handed off "commoner railgun" style to get them back to you as a free action, just in time to throw them again. Even if the DM doesn't let you throw multiple times a round with this, they still come back to you without that expensive "returning" tag.

[gorfnab]

Regal Procession (SC) - basic use is for transporting the party. Other uses are filling hallways or alleys with horses to stall pursuers, clutter a battlefield (wall of horse), cause a ship to list or sink (a riding horse weighs almost 1200 lbs, you get a horse/CL), etc.

[dascarletm]

Bestow Curse: 100% effective birth control by casting on yourself with the "target is rendered sterile" option from BoVD.

And Grease to.... ahem.. well...:smallwink:

I've used Feather Fall to CC people.

[Rubik]

If your opponents wear boots or other footwear, feel free to cast Grease on them. That way there's no way to get out of the AoE. You can also cast it on gloves or gauntlets so that any weapon they pick up is more than likely fumbled.

People use Magic Vestment all the time for shields and armors, but what about dastana bracers and chahar-aina? Normally, those only grant a small AC bonus (that stacks with everything else), but applying MV gives you an enhancement bonus to them that stacks with the enhancement bonuses on everything else, as well. And given how cheap pearls of power are...

The various forms of Bestow Curse can make for an excellent buff for some characters, as well as a good utility spell in general, especially since it's of Permanent duration. Just think of curses that could easily be considered a drawback in some situations, but is a boon in others, and use it when it becomes a positive result. Infertility was already mentioned, of course. Is there a bounty on your head, but you're stuck somewhere for longer than Polymorph lasts? "You are cursed such that nobody recognizes you, no matter how long they've known you." (Just make sure they have a way to dispel it themselves, since the party won't recognize them.) Have a young true dragon who wants to help you, but is a bit younger than is useful? "You are cursed with advanced age." (Cast multiple times to advance age categories.) And RP-wise, anyone with gender-related body dysmorphia has that little problem erased. "You are now of the fe/male gender." And so on.

[VoxRationis]

Unseen Servant is remarkably versatile, if you think seriously about all the things characters can do that require no ranks in skills and no checks at all.

They can read - even if they can't speak - and they can write. They can also listen to conversations that are DC 10 or lower to hear. Send them to look over somebody's shoulder, or listen in, and then come back to write what they heard. Worse, Explosive Runes are triggered by reading. Hand a half dozen Unseen Servants each a piece of paper with Explosive Runes on it, and order them to walk up next to your victim and read them.


I'm not the best rules lawyer on these forums or anything, but they are described as "mindless" and as being unable to use any skill unusable when untrained, both of which would seem to prevent reading and writing.

[Spore]

Fireball Odd choice here but if you need to get rid of 1-3 HD minions fast and efficient, you call upon the fireball. I am always confused onto why Confusion is regarded with universal praise where Fireball does the same thing for minions but better.
Scorching Ray Sometimes you need brute force to bring the enemy down. Scorching Ray is a good contender for dealing damage while being cheap enough to boost up with metamagic.

I know some people LOOOVE their blast spells but in more serious controlling and summoning wizarding thoughts both spells are shunned because "doing damage is for the melee brute".

[ace rooster]

Oh, another one.

Daylight, and heightened darkness in the pitch dark. Only works against creatures without darkvision, but within 20ft prevailing light conditions exist, ignoring torches and candles, and out from 20ft to 60ft there is bright light. Total concealment, and floodlights, which can be turned on and off by covering whatever you cast them on. Great for attacking bandits.

[Deophaun]

If you do the math, the effect of +2 to STR and an 8x multiplication of gear weight...
Which the part you quoted does not say. It only says the creature's weight is multiplied by 8, not the weight of the gear it carries.

[A_S]

I'm a huge fan of Lightning Leap (CM; turn into a bolt of lightning, dealing 1d6/level to anything along a 60-ft. line, then reappear at the far end). It's a decent straight-up nuke (caps at 15d6, reflex 1/2), it's great for action-efficiency (move and blast at the same time), and it gets you tactical teleportation without being a [teleportation] spell, allowing you to bypass stuff like Anticipate Teleportation and Dimensional Anchor.

[VoxRationis]

Fireball also gets points for being pretty-much a one-hit incapacitate against most ships. It sets the ship and rigging on fire (destroying the latter almost instantly), kills most of the sailors, rowers, and marines on the ship, and rivals most artillery in range.
I don't know why people like confusion either. A spell which has a non-negligible chance to have no noticeable effect (either the "no effect" result, obviously, or the "attacks the caster" result, which is probably what they'd be doing anyway) when the targets fail to save is of dubious quality. I guess people remember how annoying it was in Baldur's Gate...
But as one person on these forums said, I forgot who it was, "The most efficient status effect in terms of battlefield control is Dead." An area of minions fighting one another, acting normally, or doing nothing is more threatening than the same area of minions all dead.

[Silva Stormrage]

Fireball also gets points for being pretty-much a one-hit incapacitate against most ships. It sets the ship and rigging on fire (destroying the latter almost instantly), kills most of the sailors, rowers, and marines on the ship, and rivals most artillery in range.
I don't know why people like confusion either. A spell which has a non-negligible chance to have no noticeable effect (either the "no effect" result, obviously, or the "attacks the caster" result, which is probably what they'd be doing anyway) when the targets fail to save is of dubious quality. I guess people remember how annoying it was in Baldur's Gate...
But as one person on these forums said, I forgot who it was, "The most efficient status effect in terms of battlefield control is Dead." An area of minions fighting one another, acting normally, or doing nothing is more threatening than the same area of minions all dead.

One of the reasons confusion is well liked is that the "Attack caster" option is with melee attack correct? So that if you hit a caster with it then they will charge you with their fist and be out of the fight. Also if a confused creature takes damage they will automatically attack who attacked them back. if you get a bunch of guys confused next to each other it is very likely they will end up killing each other.

[VoxRationis]

If you are fighting casters who can be counted on to fail against your Will save DCs, you're obviously much higher-level than they are, and they would probably fall to AoE damage anyway.
In any case, having them all fight one another takes a few rounds and some could escape. When dealing with fireball they're dead immediately (assuming a horde of low-level mooks).

[Rubik]

I think Confusion is more for NPCs to cast on the party. Instadeath is less-than-optimal, whereas Confusion gives the party at least a random chance at survival.

[Curmudgeon]

Which the part you quoted does not say. It only says the creature's weight is multiplied by 8, not the weight of the gear it carries.
It does say that; it just wasn't in the part I quoted.

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell.

[ace rooster]

Fireball also gets points for being pretty-much a one-hit incapacitate against most ships. It sets the ship and rigging on fire (destroying the latter almost instantly), kills most of the sailors, rowers, and marines on the ship, and rivals most artillery in range.
I don't know why people like confusion either. A spell which has a non-negligible chance to have no noticeable effect (either the "no effect" result, obviously, or the "attacks the caster" result, which is probably what they'd be doing anyway) when the targets fail to save is of dubious quality. I guess people remember how annoying it was in Baldur's Gate...
But as one person on these forums said, I forgot who it was, "The most efficient status effect in terms of battlefield control is Dead." An area of minions fighting one another, acting normally, or doing nothing is more threatening than the same area of minions all dead.

Personally I prefer my fell animate fireballs for being more efficient. The enemy is better than dead, they are zombies fighting the survivors. As you point out, fireball has artillery like range, so not being able to control them is not your problem. :smallbiggrin:

[sonofzeal]

"Confusion" and "Enlarge Person" see a lot of play already.

How about "Great Thunderclap", the 3rd lvl debuff spell from SC that has three effects that target all three different saves? Or Tiny Hut from the PHB which can alternatively be used to do funky things with Line of Sight, fake out enemies, or as cover for an Enveloping Pit or other trap?

[Story]

Regal Procession (SC) - basic use is for transporting the party. Other uses are filling hallways or alleys with horses to stall pursuers, clutter a battlefield (wall of horse), cause a ship to list or sink (a riding horse weighs almost 1200 lbs, you get a horse/CL), etc.

I like to call that spell Wall of Horse. I've never had occasion to actually use it though, sadly enough. The close range is a big problem.


It does say that; it just wasn't in the part I quoted.

That depends on whether "similarly" means the spell text overrides the normal rules for equipment weight, I suppose.


Anyway, one I think is underrated is Infallible Servant from EoE. It's intended for BBEGs to use on their minions, but it's much more useful to execute captive enemies that you want to stay dead.

[TuggyNE]

That depends on whether "similarly" means the spell text overrides the normal rules for equipment weight, I suppose.

Suffice to say that the question has been hotly debated in the recent past, with no apparent resolution. Certainly it cannot be said that enlarge person's operation in this regard has any degree of consensus among reasonably informed posters.

[VoxRationis]

Enlarge person has to also increase the weight of equipment, for the following reason:
1) It must increase the size, while maintaining proportions, of the clothing and armor of the recipient, or the spell would either a) destroy said equipment, or b) count as a restriction of growth and ruin the spell.
2) The spell does not state any loss of integrity or strength of equipment carried or worn as a result of the growth.
3) If the weight did not increase in proportion to the strength, one could, with permanency and willing subjects, create materials that have 1/8 the mass of their normal counterparts but the same strength, thus revolutionizing the metallurgy and textile industries completely.

[Story]

The thing though is that D&D doesn't necessary follow the square-cube law. Just look at the armor weight table for instance.

So does the armor weight get doubled or octupled?

[Segev]

I'm not the best rules lawyer on these forums or anything, but they are described as "mindless" and as being unable to use any skill unusable when untrained, both of which would seem to prevent reading and writing.

Neither "reading" nor "writing" is a skill, and it takes explicit class features to remove literacy from a character.

[Segev]

The thing though is that D&D doesn't necessary follow the square-cube law. Just look at the armor weight table for instance.

So does the armor weight get doubled or octupled?

Indeed, it can't follow the square-cube law and have Giants and Dragons and the like all function at the sizes they reach.

You can reasonably enforce a lot of physics in D&D for narrative reasons, but never try to logic them out when it comes to "that makes this not work the way the rules suggest" or "that makes this less useful than one might expect from what the rules say." Spells, items, etc. do what they say they do, mechanically, and rarely do they do any more or less.

[TuggyNE]

Enlarge person has to also increase the weight of equipment, for the following reason:
1) It must increase the size, while maintaining proportions, of the clothing and armor of the recipient, or the spell would either a) destroy said equipment, or b) count as a restriction of growth and ruin the spell.

It undoubtedly increases the size (and weight) of worn equipment. By how much? Ah, that's the question.


2) The spell does not state any loss of integrity or strength of equipment carried or worn as a result of the growth.

This has already been mentioned, but because of the square-cube law, armor for a creature with eight times the volume need only cover four times the surface area, and be of approximately equal thickness (in most parts; any sections that are purely structural, rather than armoring, might even be thinner with no downside).

Note that neither proposed reading actually fits this relationship (one being a x8 increase instead of x4, and the other being a x2 increase), which suggests that the rules are doing some funny stuff here.


3) If the weight did not increase in proportion to the strength, one could, with permanency and willing subjects, create materials that have 1/8 the mass of their normal counterparts but the same strength, thus revolutionizing the metallurgy and textile industries completely.

No, this wouldn't work no matter what you do.
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.

[eggynack]

No, this wouldn't work no matter what you do.
You're thinking too small. Who said the enlarged items are leaving the subjects possession? Every enlarged chunk of super-material will constantly be accompanied by some guy, constantly keeping himself in contact with it. It would be an odd revolution, but it'd certainly be something different.

[ChocoSuisse]

Neither "reading" nor "writing" is a skill, and it takes explicit class features to remove literacy from a character.
If it's mindless, it can't read. Plus, it's not even a character!
You wouldn't rule a cactus can read because it doesn't have explicit class feature removing literacy, would you?

[TuggyNE]

If it's mindless, it can't read.

Not sure that's true, at least in a strict rules sense.


Plus, it's not even a character!
You wouldn't rule a cactus can read because it doesn't have explicit class feature removing literacy, would you?

And, while things that are not characters certainly cannot read, I'm not entirely sure the servant is not a character of some sort. (Animated objects and skeletons are certainly characters.)

[ace rooster]

If it's mindless, it can't read. Plus, it's not even a character!
You wouldn't rule a cactus can read because it doesn't have explicit class feature removing literacy, would you?

not strictly true. A mindless creature is defined as one with no thoughts and no memory, so cannot learn new abilities. That does not preclude a mindless creature from being created with the ability to read (or rather, parse written commands). I can't think of any that can, but the mindless tag does not preclude it. Most mindless constructs are created to parse some particular commands in a particular language, and follow them. Unseen servants are created with the ability to follow "simple commands", but that does not mean they understand any languages never mind being able to read them. My dog does not understand english, but he will obey 'sit'. I regard his level of comprehension to be about the level of an unseen servant, though the servant will know more commands.

I think character refers to any creature with character levels, which mindless creatures can not. Racial HD do not automatically allow you to read. Also the barbarian illiteracy class feature is an odd one, given that it mentions that you gain literacy rather than losing illiteracy.

[TuggyNE]

I think character refers to any creature with character levels, which mindless creatures can not. Racial HD do not automatically allow you to read. Also the barbarian illiteracy class feature is an odd one, given that it mentions that you gain literacy rather than losing illiteracy.


A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

An example of this usage is in Movement, Positioning, and Distance where it's mentioned that "A character can’t move through a blocking obstacle." (Yes, it actually says that. :smallconfused:)


Any character except a barbarian can read and write all the languages he or she speaks.

Of course, I suppose if unseen servants can't speak the point is moot.

[fishyfishyfishy]

If you do the math, the effect of +2 to STR and an 8x multiplication of gear weight has the same effect as if they didn't change size but their load tripled. Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) is good for three uses:

Monks and other characters who carry next to nothing, so it's still a Light load.
Armored characters who go from Medium to Heavy encumbrance, which imposes no additional penalties. (My guess: that's really the only case the spell was designed for.)
Enemies, to make them encumbered.

If you pay attention to encumbrance, Enlarge Person is only a halfway decent buff spell. But that third use as an offensive spell makes it more versatile than most people think. Hit a lightly-loaded enemy with that spell, indoors, and you may take them out of most of the combat. Most of the time that'll put them into medium encumbrance, slowing them down (to about 69% of normal speed). But being taller than ceiling height will mean squeezing rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#squeezing) apply: double movement cost penalties, with a net reduction to about 34% of their normal speed. They'll have another -4 to attack and AC, on top of the -1 from size increase. And, with double movement cost penalties, they can't take 5' steps. :smallbiggrin:

Are you including the fact that large creatures carrying capacity is double that of a medium creature in your calculations?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#biggerandSmallerCreatures

[supermonkeyjoe]

Water walk is the ultimate spell to take on underwater expeditions because:


If the spell is cast underwater (or while the subjects are partially or wholly submerged in whatever liquid they are in), the subjects are borne toward the surface at 60 feet per round until they can stand on it.

Basically a save or die on any non-amphibious creature, and removes most things from the battle as they go flying off towards the surface. It's also a great escape spell if you cast it on yourself, move 60' away from danger per round and still get a full rounds actions. If you are underwater in a building this will essentially send someone flying up into the ceiling.

Also you could walk on the surface of liquids too I guess, and you are immune to grease and other spells that make the surface of the ground slippery at all because
Mud, oil, snow, quicksand, running water, ice, and even lava can be traversed easily, since the subjects’ feet hover an inch or two above the surface. (Creatures crossing molten lava still take damage from the heat because they are near it.) The subjects can walk, run, charge, or otherwise move across the surface as if it were normal ground.

Nice

[KorbeltheReader]

not strictly true. A mindless creature is defined as one with no thoughts and no memory, so cannot learn new abilities. That does not preclude a mindless creature from being created with the ability to read (or rather, parse written commands). I can't think of any that can, but the mindless tag does not preclude it. Most mindless constructs are created to parse some particular commands in a particular language, and follow them. Unseen servants are created with the ability to follow "simple commands", but that does not mean they understand any languages never mind being able to read them. My dog does not understand english, but he will obey 'sit'. I regard his level of comprehension to be about the level of an unseen servant, though the servant will know more commands.

I think character refers to any creature with character levels, which mindless creatures can not. Racial HD do not automatically allow you to read. Also the barbarian illiteracy class feature is an odd one, given that it mentions that you gain literacy rather than losing illiteracy.

And how often does your dog write you notes, I wonder?

Seriously though, you're really going to argue that a mindless creature knows how to read and write? And all this time I had no idea my PC could have a gelatinous cube as a pen pal!

[VoxRationis]

No, this wouldn't work no matter what you do.

Ah, I forgot about the item shrinkage.

As for unseen servant illiteracy, note that a) as someone mentioned, the barbarian gains literacy rather than loses illiteracy (which makes sense), and b) this is done through the investment of two skill points.
You know what you can also do through two skill points? Learn a language, which is a skill. Some characters start with Elven, say, automatically known, but others don't and invest skill points in them. Therefore, there is precedent that some characters automatically have skills known without it being written on their class features. Thus, it just so happens that all the classes except Barbarian come with literacy, as a skill, which, given the Barbarian, clearly cannot be used untrained, pre-packaged into their class features.
Since an unseen servant doesn't have any skill points or any skills at all, it therefore cannot use the invisible "literacy" skill, and cannot read or write.
An unseen servant, being mindless, has less intellect than the aforementioned dog. It is less likely to be able to read and write than a dog.

[dextercorvia]

You wouldn't rule a cactus can read because it doesn't have explicit class feature removing literacy, would you?

Cacti (along with most trees and plants) aren't creatures in the DnD sense.

[Segev]

And how often does your dog write you notes, I wonder?

Seriously though, you're really going to argue that a mindless creature knows how to read and write? And all this time I had no idea my PC could have a gelatinous cube as a pen pal!

The lack of hands makes it hard to wield writing implements, and the lack of intellect might make the writing less than engaging even if a solution to the lack-of-hands problem were found.

Note that the only thing required of the Unseen Servants here is they take the action "read," not that they do anything complex in response to what they read. (Though the suggestion of using them as spies is more complex, it isn't hard to write down the gist of an overheard conversation, and certainly doesn't require a skill roll greater than DC 10.) Again, they're not showing any initiative or creativity, so your "pen pal" scenario isn't all that applicable.

You certainly could order an Unseen Servant to take dictation for you.

[ace rooster]

And how often does your dog write you notes, I wonder?

Seriously though, you're really going to argue that a mindless creature knows how to read and write? And all this time I had no idea my PC could have a gelatinous cube as a pen pal!

Does a muddy paw print on my bed count as a note? :smalltongue:

I'm not saying that any mindless creature knows how to read and write, mearly that a mindless creature that could 'read' and 'write' is possible. A construct could be made that responds to a certain string of symbols in a certain way, possibly by using a pen to trace out another string of symbols. If these match up precisely to the reponses it has to verbal cues, and the verbal responses it has to other cues, then it could be said to be able to read and write. Not sure why you would, but meh, wizards.

The point about the dog is that being able to respond to language does not imply that you can understand it, and specifically relating that to unseen servants rather than mindless creatures in general (of which my dog is not, he thinks mostly about biscuits).

[Amphetryon]

Originally Posted by SRD Races: Race and Languages
Any character except a barbarian can read and write all the languages he or she speaks.
Of course, I suppose if unseen servants can't speak the point is moot.
Surely you're not saying a Totemist or a Savage Bard - or a Character with the Illiterate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#illiterate) Trait - can read and write, merely because that passage in the SRD would seem to indicate it's so.

[squiggit]

Surely you're not saying a Totemist or a Savage Bard - or a Character with the Illiterate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#illiterate) Trait - can read and write, merely because that passage in the SRD would seem to indicate it's so.

Illiterate would be a specific exception to the general rule. Which is how D&D works.

[KorbeltheReader]

The lack of hands makes it hard to wield writing implements, and the lack of intellect might make the writing less than engaging even if a solution to the lack-of-hands problem were found.


So if I'm understanding this correctly, the problem with asking your dog to write you a note is not that your dog doesn't know how to read or write, but that he lacks the motor skills to manipulate a pen, and if he gained such ability (cunning use of letterpress, perhaps?), would just write "ruff, bow wow, pantpantpant."

This, by the way, is turning into one of my favorite GitP discussions ever.

[dextercorvia]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the problem with asking your dog to write you a note is not that your dog doesn't know how to read or write, but that he lacks the motor skills to manipulate a pen, and if he gained such ability (cunning use of letterpress, perhaps?), would just write "ruff, bow wow, pantpantpant."

This, by the way, is turning into one of my favorite GitP discussions ever.

No, clearly there is no conceivable reason that the dog language would use our alphabet.

[Segev]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the problem with asking your dog to write you a note is not that your dog doesn't know how to read or write, but that he lacks the motor skills to manipulate a pen, and if he gained such ability (cunning use of letterpress, perhaps?), would just write "ruff, bow wow, pantpantpant."

This, by the way, is turning into one of my favorite GitP discussions ever.

Well, you'd probably have to train him to do the trick, or get a way to speak with him in such a manner that he understood and was inclined to obey your instruction that he should do so. But, by the rules of D&D, if you could get him to do it, he could. Magic's weird that way.

In point of fact, "training" him to do that "trick" with Handle Animal would not be utterly unbelievable for a fantastic world like D&D; the training would involve teaching him the symbols to mark in response to your commands.

Again, though, you're right in that you shouldn't expect much more than a written equivalent of "woof, bow-wow, bark" unless you're giving him very specific instruction.

There's also the fact that the rules of D&D seem to indicate that animals by default do not understand speech, so wouldn't be able to be given instruction the way an Unseen Servant can be, nor expected to retain and copy even the gist down. Not without magic or other tricks enabling them to take what they hear and translate it to symbols. Unseen Servants explicitly can understand spoken instruction, and so converting it to a symbolic response is within their "nothing over DC 10" list of things they can do, provided the very act of listening in and remembering it enough to jot down the gist is not greater than DC 10.

[dascarletm]

No, clearly there is not conceivable reason that the dog language would use our alphabet.

+1 point for making me chuckle while on my break in the office.

[Pinkie Pyro]

someone has taught their dog to read, so it's not unfeasible that a magically created mindless construct couldn't do the same.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18930_6-amazingly-intelligent-animals-that-will-creep-you-out.html

[Amphetryon]

Illiterate would be a specific exception to the general rule. Which is how D&D works.

So, are you saying that Mindless Creatures - which explicitly lack the 'Illiterate' descriptor - are de facto able to read?

[malonkey1]

So, are you saying that Mindless Creatures - which explicitly lack the 'Illiterate' descriptor - are de facto able to read?

Arguably, "mindless" is somewhat of a misnomer, depending on how you define having a "mind". Most would probably say something abstract, to the effect of "creatures with a mind are capable of coherent thought." However, certain definitions of a mind more liken it to a computer, simply processing input and responding with output (For example, IF SPIDER.SEESBUG == 1 THEN SPIDER.FEED), with more intelligent creatures having more sophisticated processing ability.

Using this second definition, many "mindless" creatures would be considered to have a "mind":

Golems are specifically designed to perform certain actions based on parsed input with specific parameters (if you see any ducks, throw these biscuits at them.)
Undead such as zombies, while bestial and instinctive, are still capable of interpreting sensory data
Insect and arachnid vermin are also able to perform as such.


Based on this, "mindless" should really be "incoherent".

[dextercorvia]

Mindless Creatures have no Skills, and since there is no entry for Unseen Servant in the MM, we must assume that it (like other mindless creatures in the various MM) does not have any automatic languages. Ergo, Unseen Servants can speak no languages. The only methods we have of knowing how to read, is for languages which you can speak, or the decipher script skill. Decipher Script is trained only, so doesn't apply.

Unseen Servants can not read, nor be taught to read, unless you give them a Pearl of Speech(MIC).

[VoxRationis]

Arguably, "mindless" is somewhat of a misnomer, depending on how you define having a "mind". Most would probably say something abstract, to the effect of "creatures with a mind are capable of coherent thought." However, certain definitions of a mind more liken it to a computer, simply processing input and responding with output (For example, IF SPIDER.SEESBUG == 1 THEN SPIDER.FEED), with more intelligent creatures having more sophisticated processing ability.

I agree in principle that "mindless" is a strange and ridiculous attribute to have. Why does having such a simple sort of cognition make you immune to mind-affecting spells? If anything, it should be easier to make an enchantment spell that foils basic thought patterns than one that foils advanced ones, which often have work-arounds or backups or self-checking. However, it is explicitly stated that the Unseen Servant is mindless and only capable of following specific, simple orders.


Using this second definition, many "mindless" creatures would be considered to have a "mind":

Golems are specifically designed to perform certain actions based on parsed input with specific parameters (if you see any ducks, throw these biscuits at them.)



I'm laughing at the thought of a wizard using his ~20,000-gp iron golem to feed the ducks.

[Vedhin]

I'm laughing at the thought of a wizard using his ~20,000-gp iron golem to feed the ducks.

They're actually doomducks. The biscuits are coated in special contact poison that only affects doomducks.

[TuggyNE]

So, are you saying that Mindless Creatures - which explicitly lack the 'Illiterate' descriptor - are de facto able to read?

They would, except see the next bit.


Mindless Creatures have no Skills, and since there is no entry for Unseen Servant in the MM, we must assume that it (like other mindless creatures in the various MM) does not have any automatic languages.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.
A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

All right, I think we can fairly say that unseen servants do not understand any language, since the simple commands they accept are not necessarily a full language. Thus, they cannot read or write.

A compromise might be that they can read instructions that they could accept verbally, but I dunno.

[Rubik]

Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm) can give you a Genesis demiplane for cheap. Just apply Sanctum Spell to make the resulting Genesis count as a level 8 spell. Now you don't have to spend any XP to get it. Sure, it's made of shadowstuff, but that doesn't make the flowing time you get out of it any less real.

Heroics gives you a fighter feat of your choice that you qualify for. That's pretty good, normally, but what makes it great is that Martial Study and Martial Stance are both fighter bonus feats, giving you access to any maneuver or stance you qualify for. Since you can use a maneuver to qualify for another maneuver (or stance), even if you're replacing the former, the first casting of Heroics should be able to qualify you for the maneuver (or stance) you gain from a second casting, even if you then no longer have the first one available. Iron Heart Surge, anybody?

[NoACWarrior]

All right, I think we can fairly say that unseen servants do not understand any language, since the simple commands they accept are not necessarily a full language. Thus, they cannot read or write.
A compromise might be that they can read instructions that they could accept verbally, but I dunno.


Just because the mindless things do not understand any language, doesn't mean they cannot read or write (yes its very silly).
Simply put, the mindless thing could potentially read a passage but simply not understand what it is reading, or one step further potentially write a passage but simply not understand what it is writing.

With that said - its possible that a mindless thing could be reading something as commanded by an "owner" or be writing as commanded by the same owner.

[eggynack]

Just because the mindless things do not understand any language, doesn't mean they cannot read or write (yes its very silly).
Simply put, the mindless thing could potentially read a passage but simply not understand what it is reading, or one step further potentially write a passage but simply not understand what it is writing.

With that said - its possible that a mindless thing could be reading something as commanded by an "owner" or be writing as commanded by the same owner.
Close, but not quite. As defined by the speak language skill, a literate character, "Can read and write any language she speaks." Thus, for the unseen servant, they can read or write any language they know, because they're literate, but they don't know any languages, so they can't read anything. In other words, the game-definition of "read" is rooted in comprehension, rather than a separate object.

[dextercorvia]

They might be able to copy other writing, though. Simple commands are only really defined in a couple of spell descriptions, and Copy this isn't one of them, but things like Attack anything that enters this area is considered a simple command. Attacking is instinctual, though, so I'm not sure how far we can draw that parallel.

Also, we have a 0 level spell that can copy nonmagical text, so I'm not sure how useful it would be to put the Unseen Servant to that job.

[eggynack]

They might be able to copy other writing, though. Simple commands are only really defined in a couple of spell descriptions, and Copy this isn't one of them, but things like Attack anything that enters this area is considered a simple command. Attacking is instinctual, though, so I'm not sure how far we can draw that parallel.

Also, we have a 0 level spell that can copy nonmagical text, so I'm not sure how useful it would be to put the Unseen Servant to that job.
Seems plausible. You'd presumably be leaving the illiteracy/reading/writing thing behind, such that your orders could also be carried out by a barbarian. That's actually a pretty good way to look at it, as the unseen servant's status with regards to any particular language is illiteracy, even if they might technically be literate.