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View Full Version : Optimization Congratulations, you just got yourself a plane!



Inevitability
2014-04-10, 02:56 PM
Okay. I wish to propose an optimization challenge.
This is basically an experiment to see if 4 tier 1 classes are able to save planes, and if they are, the level at which it is possible.
A group of 4 tier 1 adventurers receive a letter.


Dear adventurers,

Regrettably, your world will instantly disappear in a year's time. To compensate for this, you have been given a new plane. The plane has the following traits:

-Normal gravity
-Normal time
-Infinite
-Alterable Morphic
-Normal Magic

If you read the scroll included in this message, a permanent portal to the plane will open up, vanishing only when the Material Plane disappears.
Except for a 1-mile diameter sphere of rock (which the portal will lead to), and a 1-mile thick layer of breathable air surrounding it, the plane is empty. You won't be able to take more than a couple of personal belongings with you, but you are free to enter and leave the plane when you wish. You won't be able to transport many sets of belongings to the plane, however. Only one such set per one of you can exist at a time.

We wish you good luck. Remember, you only have one year.

Yours sincerly,

Plane-create Inc.

So, how would you save as many people as possible, within one year's time?
To make things more interesting, we'll look at the problem from different levels.
(Level 1, level 6, level 11, level 16 and level 20) They aren't connected, and are just for the different power levels.
The adventurers have to be any tier 1 class, but build details and prestige classes are up to you.
Standard WBL (though many of you'll be able to break it, I'm sure)

A couple of things that are banned:

-Planar travel to any plane other than your own with the intention of housing the inhabitants of the material plane there. Short trips are allowed, as is planar binding/summon monster.
-Genesis.
-More may be added.

Solutions will be listed at the first level they are available.
Only solutions that work RAW will be added.
Any notes from me will be listed in brackets.

Level 1:
Nevershutup: Use local guilds to create a city on your plane. Move as many important people to it as possible.
What is saved: A lot of spellcasters. Some building materials
What isn't saved: The planet, most of the living creatures on it.
(The plane will have loads of spellcasters, but you don't have resources to contact the high-level ones. Reproducing will be difficult, as many of the spellcasters are to old to be very fertile anymore. Nevershutup's higher level plans are mostly the same, with a couple of additions, so I'll be considering them one solution.)

Seer of Heart: Replicate the earth in the new plane, step by step creating oceans, a core, plants and finally animals. Enveloping pits are used to transport people to the portal. This has a few unclear points, such as how you're getting creatures that are that fast.
What is saved: Most of the human son the planet, with a new planet for them to live on.
What isn't saved: The planet itself, many of the animals on it.
(As you said, getting enough animals to the planet'll be a problem, and PaO will eventually cause a single bred of animals. While this could work, there should be a way to prevent genetic erosion.)

Level 6:

Level 11:

Level 16:
Captnq: Time Hop the ENTIRE PLANET except for one piece, which is thrown through the portal. Death Knell is used to boost ML.
What is saved: About everything.
What isn't saved: The suicidal crazy guy who decides to resist the time hop and rolls a 20 on his will save?
(This is... epic. It works RAW, it lets you save everyone, and you even get to take the planet along.)

Level 20:
Doc Maynot: Create giant flying ships stuffed with refuges, and send them to the new plane. Create food traps and bottles of air will keep the population alive, while the planet is prepared for colonization.
What is saved: Many of the population, quite a lot of animals and trees.
What isn't saved: The planet itself, the many species that one will have difficulty taking along.
(A really nice solution. You don't even need the new plane's planet. Since you haven't given a quick way to cast Planar Navigation, I won't be listing this any lower than level 20.)


If anything's unclear, please tell me.

Chronos
2014-04-10, 04:34 PM
How about they try to prevent the destruction of the existing material plane, instead of evacuating?

Captnq
2014-04-10, 04:53 PM
Okay, I find a fast time plane. I use wish to get a psionist. I bargain for services. We find a fast time plane and use Anchor Plane to create multiple manifest zones to cover the new planet with fast time and slow time zones. I live in the fast time zones, I have refugees move to the slow time zones. Should get me about a hundred years to work out a solution.

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION:
Now my goal is to move the entire planet from the old plane.

We murder about 200 people at the same time using death knell to absorb their life force and increase the power of the psionist to ML 200+. We time hop the ENTIRE PLANET, except for a small chunk the size of a chiwawas' head. Since that chunk is the "planet" and the rest of the planet is time hopped relative to the chunk of rock, the rest of the planet will follow the rock. I pick up the rock, fly through the gate, and toss the rock anywhere I want my new planet. Wait about... 5 rounds? Poof. The planet has left the plane. Go ahead and destroy it.

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION: I murder the other three people and keep the plane for myself. Screw 'em.

TrueJordan
2014-04-10, 05:09 PM
By level 16 they should mostly be able to cast Wish at will (or close enough) either with Planar Binding or Planar Shepherd wizbiz, but before that... hm. I dunno if that's something that should be handed to a group of level 1s, no matter which tier.

cosmonuts
2014-04-10, 05:11 PM
How about they try to prevent the destruction of the existing material plane, instead of evacuating?

If the fella destroying the plane is a wizard who doesn't care if people evacuate, then this tier 4 rogue or whatever would probably be better off evacuating as many people as possible.

Misread OP, thought he was saying four tier 4 characters. Wups.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-10, 05:12 PM
We time hop the ENTIRE PLANET

I don't even care if this works by the rules or not. It's way too awesome.


For extra lulz, count the rock and/or planet as a "personal belonging".

Nevershutup
2014-04-10, 05:39 PM
Let's see... At level one, there's not much you can do, except convince some local builder's guilds and miner's guilds to help you create a "planet" wide city, and transport as much knowledge and as many important people (Spellcasters, Psionic-users, etc.) as discreetly as you can to the new city.

At level six, using some leadership cheese, you could do the above, but have people using spells with a permanent duration to make a bigger city, and a nicer city that could house more people.

At level 11, you could use leadership once more to get better spellcasters, and a bigger city, with a higher population cap, and you could probably start getting help from other planes, via Summon X spells.

At level 16, again, Leadership, along with the city. You could also be moving vast swaths of, say, the Elemental plane of Earth, onto your new plane, and making it much bigger.

By level 20, you have enough money and such, that you can everything brought to you, and pull a full-on Noah's Ark scenario, while you slowly grow your planet.

CIDE
2014-04-10, 06:32 PM
Okay, I find a fast time plane. I use wish to get a psionist. I bargain for services. We find a fast time plane and use Anchor Plane to create multiple manifest zones to cover the new planet with fast time and slow time zones. I live in the fast time zones, I have refugees move to the slow time zones. Should get me about a hundred years to work out a solution.

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION:
Now my goal is to move the entire planet from the old plane.

We murder about 200 people at the same time using death knell to absorb their life force and increase the power of the psionist to ML 200+. We time hop the ENTIRE PLANET, except for a small chunk the size of a chiwawas' head. Since that chunk is the "planet" and the rest of the planet is time hopped relative to the chunk of rock, the rest of the planet will follow the rock. I pick up the rock, fly through the gate, and toss the rock anywhere I want my new planet. Wait about... 5 rounds? Poof. The planet has left the plane. Go ahead and destroy it.

ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION: I murder the other three people and keep the plane for myself. Screw 'em.

You deserve this.

http://www.imgrind.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/win.jpg

Deadline
2014-04-10, 07:14 PM
Are there snakes on it? Because they should probably leave.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/amYzBQMT4VI/hqdefault.jpg







I'll show myself out.

Vaz
2014-04-10, 07:27 PM
Be an Ardent. Use Linked Power and a PP regeneration system to cast Linked Power X/Psionic Genesis to extend space.

Use expanded knowledge to get an StP's conversion of the clone spell. Same for Body Outside Body. Have each of these BoB clones continually fest Linked Power x/genesis.

Set up a system to get a skin sample of everyone on plane. When the plane dies, they will be reborn.

Seer_of_Heart
2014-04-10, 07:28 PM
This should work at any level

1. Use various WBL tricks to gain as much money as needed to buy various things

2. Set up free wishes and then create self repeating traps (that create self repeating traps that create.... until they make magic item X.) With enough generations set up you'll have essentially unlimited supplies. Free wishes allow you to do things that you realize you need to do as needed.

3. Get scrolls of ice assassin to create creatures/high level people with spells/slas needed. Or just use the ice assassins to umd mass numbers of staves/scrolls. (you probably should be making them all in time stops. (What's the RAW on using a time stop in a time stop?))

4. You can replicate earth's land by many castings of wall of stone and stone shape.

5. Replicate Earth's core with stone to lava and wall of iron.

6. Create the seas with lots of walls of salt and create water.

7. Plant life can be created with either true creation or genies since their major creation duration for vegetation is permanent which is good enough for the initial generation of plants.

8. an atmosphere can be created with 2.1*10^23 bottles of air running for 1 day (I assumed you got 1 liter of air each round from a bottle of air)

9. animal life is trickier I guess PaO or directly bringing in animals will have to do for them. With PaO I guess that sets up a breeding population that should be completely ordinary in the future by RAW.

10. pack in every intelligent creature in enveloping pits. (you'll need massive assembly lines teleport circles that bring people to enveloping pits and then extremely fast creatures to carry the pits back and forth (or just 1 way).) Use diplomacy to make everyone amiable to the idea assuming they do not instantly believe the world is going to end in 1 year.

11. exotic materials can be made with true creation

12. Are there any good way to get dirt instantaneously otherwise stone to mud is permanent and there probably is a creature out there with it as an SLA so it can be made supernatural with supernatural transformation.

13. use bigger numbers if there are things other than earth on the plane you need to worry about.

Feel free to suggest improvements/pick apart my plan

Inevitability
2014-04-11, 08:15 AM
How about they try to prevent the destruction of the existing material plane, instead of evacuating?

This is a thought experiment, so let's assume the destruction is inevitable.



We time hop the ENTIRE PLANET, except for a small chunk the size of a chiwawas' head. Since that chunk is the "planet" and the rest of the planet is time hopped relative to the chunk of rock, the rest of the planet will follow the rock. I pick up the rock, fly through the gate, and toss the rock anywhere I want my new planet. Wait about... 5 rounds? Poof. The planet has left the plane. Go ahead and destroy it.

Awesome plan, but how does the planet qualify as:

One Medium or smaller creature, or one object weighing 300 lb. or less


Let's see... At level one, there's not much you can do, except convince some local builder's guilds and miner's guilds to help you create a "planet" wide city, and transport as much knowledge and as many important people (Spellcasters, Psionic-users, etc.) as discreetly as you can to the new city.

At level six, using some leadership cheese, you could do the above, but have people using spells with a permanent duration to make a bigger city, and a nicer city that could house more people.

At level 11, you could use leadership once more to get better spellcasters, and a bigger city, with a higher population cap, and you could probably start getting help from other planes, via Summon X spells.

At level 16, again, Leadership, along with the city. You could also be moving vast swaths of, say, the Elemental plane of Earth, onto your new plane, and making it much bigger.

By level 20, you have enough money and such, that you can everything brought to you, and pull a full-on Noah's Ark scenario, while you slowly grow your planet.

This, I like to see. You really have made plans for each of the 5 levels.


Be an Ardent. Use Linked Power and a PP regeneration system to cast Linked Power X/Psionic Genesis to extend space.

Use expanded knowledge to get an StP's conversion of the clone spell. Same for Body Outside Body. Have each of these BoB clones continually fest Linked Power x/genesis.

Set up a system to get a skin sample of everyone on plane. When the plane dies, they will be reborn.

Genesis is not allowed. I specified it in the OP. I don't mean that you can't cast Genesis, I mean that it doesn't even exist.

ChocoSuisse
2014-04-11, 09:16 AM
Find a way to make this information widely known.
Make sure everyone knows where the portal is.
Involve Clerics and their Gods.
Grab popcorn.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 09:17 AM
Awesome plan, but how does the planet qualify as:


Because of this little thing called "augmentation"


Augment
You can augment this power in one or both of the following ways.

For every 2 additional power points you spend, you can affect a creature of one size category larger, or double the weight of an object to be affected.
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect an additional target. Any additional target cannot be more than 15 feet from another target of the power.


It's all right there in the power entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm). All you had to do was scroll down a bit.

Inevitability
2014-04-11, 09:53 AM
Because of this little thing called "augmentation"

It's all right there in the power entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm). All you had to do was scroll down a bit.

Okay then. I guess I should've scrolled down.

I calculated it, and it turns out you'll only need 79 augmentations for this. Huh. That means that the 16th and 20th level psion can both just pick up the planet and move it.
I knew high level casters were broken, but this...

One last issue I have with it: What are you going to do about the billions of creatures on the earth? Sure, you'll have the planet Timehopped, but as soon as you do so, the atmosphere will vanish, leaving the complete population of earth to die.

Doc_Maynot
2014-04-11, 09:57 AM
Make airtight (I'm like 90% sure stronghold builder's guide has stuff for this) flying city ships, fill them each to a comfortable amount with refugees, each family with one or more bottle of air, and making sure there are adequate clerics/healers on staff as well. Once that is done, planar navigation each ship into the new plane. Continue ship improvements ala teleportation circles and create food traps. Now that the refugees are safe and relatively comfortable, begin work on the plane.

The right artificer should be able to easily take care of most of this, with a dedicated wright and leadership for more artificers/wrights.

The wizard could setup the circles and do the planar navigation thing.

A cleric with the envy domain (or a domain staff of envy) could easily set the city ships up with simulacra of themself.

The Druids job would be to awaken animals for future farming (Side note: don't tell the animals that) and trees so that there is somewhat of a stable atmosphere in the city ships, rescue them into the ships, and to help the wizard and cleric in building the planet.

During planet construction, the artificer's and his followers will maintain the cities.

After the planet is constructed, the wizard will open up teleportation circles from the cities to key points on the planet.
Mission accomplished.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 12:53 PM
One last issue I have with it: What are you going to do about the billions of creatures on the earth? Sure, you'll have the planet Timehopped, but as soon as you do so, the atmosphere will vanish, leaving the complete population of earth to die.


I think the creatures on it would be included. Kind of like how your stomach bacteria travel with you when you teleport (otherwise, it would be left behind, and you would be extremely sick and probably die), and how embryos and parasites aren't left behind either. Or how ships can be targeted (by some spells in Stormwrack), and that typically includes all objects and creatures on board.

I believe the atmosphere would be included too, though you'd have to then include its weight in the spell's calculations. I've seen definitions which include it, and gas comprises a pretty big portion of some planets, such as jupiter. If not, one could probably come up with some way to generate a sufficiently-large pocket of breathable gas.

Inevitability
2014-04-11, 02:24 PM
I think the creatures on it would be included. Kind of like how your stomach bacteria travel with you when you teleport (otherwise, it would be left behind, and you would be extremely sick and probably die), and how embryos and parasites aren't left behind either. Or how ships can be targeted (by some spells in Stormwrack), and that typically includes all objects and creatures on board.

I believe the atmosphere would be included too, though you'd have to then include its weight in the spell's calculations. I've seen definitions which include it, and gas comprises a pretty big portion of some planets, such as jupiter. If not, one could probably come up with some way to generate a sufficiently-large pocket of breathable gas.

That makes sense. I think Timehop-the-planet just became my favourite solution.
Why rebuild the planet when you can take it with you?

Also, if I ever get the chance to play a high-level psion, I'm going to try to do this. Let's see how the bad guys survive if they suddenly appear on the plane of fire/water/negative energy/spiked tentacles of forced intrusion.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 02:33 PM
That makes sense. I think Timehop-the-planet just became my favourite solution.
Why rebuild the planet when you can take it with you?

Also, if I ever get the chance to play a high-level psion, I'm going to try to do this. Let's see how the bad guys survive if they suddenly appear on the plane of fire/water/negative energy/spiked tentacles of forced intrusion.

Just bear in mind that my post was almost entirely conjecture based off existing rules precedent, rather than the golden word of RAW.

Coidzor
2014-04-11, 03:56 PM
So they have to build land and either biosphere or render the populace into a form that doesn't need biospheres.

Ooo, now if only I could recall the methods for storing creatures indefinitely in a compressed form. I know one of them involves turning them into water...

Inevitability
2014-04-11, 11:54 PM
Ooo, now if only I could recall the methods for storing creatures indefinitely in a compressed form. I know one of them involves turning them into water...

Now I'm curious...