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View Full Version : Player Help I don't know what character to play! [3.5]



Saintsqc
2014-04-10, 03:31 PM
Our group is about to undertake a difficult quest and it is possible that some of us die. I'm thinking about a build I can play if my character die. Actually, I don't know what could be fun and useful to the group ! So, I turn to you, playgrounders, in the hope to gather suggestions about builds that will be useful to the party and fun to play!

The group

1 - Half-elf ranger (archer) lvl 7
2 - Dwarf figther/warbalde lvl 5 -> tank
3 - Halfling rogue/swordsage lvl 6 -> stealthy, sneaky and deadly
4 - Human cleric lvl 5 -> pacifist, healer and buffer

And me :
Wizard/fighter lvl 7 -> gish build, battlefield control, buffs and debuffs

The group is kind of low on optimization. Fluff and RP is important, but we still like effeciency.

The cleric is often absent. So the divine-caster/diplomat might be a role that's need to be fulfill.


What I would like to play

Something "roguish" (cunning, sneaky, witty), useful in and out of combat. The rogue in our group is a good scout, but he's bad with diplomacy/bluff. Beguiler might also be a class I'd like to play.

Paladin is also a class that appeals me. However, the holier-than-thou attitude repeals me. I like my character to be flexible.

I wouldn't mind playing another wizard though. It's defenitely my favorite class. It allows so much flexibility. A wizard is useful in any situations.

So, rogue, wizard, cleric, figther, monk, paladin are class I could enjoy.

Class I don't want to play

Barbarians, druids, rangers, bards...I tried them more than once, and I never enjoy them.

Last point

50% of the time, I'm the DM. When I'm the DM, my character is still a member of the group, but I played it as a NPC. In respect of others, I don't want my character to be a leader or the spokesperson.

This is the main reason why I hesitate to roll a beguiler. The group needs a character with high diplomacy/bluff skills and good in social interactions...but if I play these situations while I'm the DM, it sucks.

We play with all the complete series and ToB.



So....

Do you have suggestions for me :smallredface: ?

Gabrosin
2014-04-10, 03:44 PM
Another cleric would be reasonable and allow you to play a support role, ideal for those times when you're in service as the DM. But if you're expecting your wizard to die, this would leave the party without an arcane caster at all, which is a serious weakness.

You might consider a different flavor of arcane caster to make sure the party doesn't have a gap there.

Why no druids? That would be another way to mix healing capacity with powerful versatile spellcasting.

herrhauptmann
2014-04-10, 03:55 PM
Wrath of god war cleric?

Not sneaky, but versatile, and you can tailor your power by picking bad spells.

TrueJordan
2014-04-10, 04:07 PM
Warlocks are fun, or so I've heard, as are sorcerers.

Also, a wizard/fighter isn't nearly as good of a gish build as a straight wizard, but whatevz.

Saintsqc
2014-04-10, 08:59 PM
Another cleric would be reasonable and allow you to play a support role, ideal for those times when you're in service as the DM. But if you're expecting your wizard to die, this would leave the party without an arcane caster at all, which is a serious weakness.

You might consider a different flavor of arcane caster to make sure the party doesn't have a gap there.

Why no druids? That would be another way to mix healing capacity with powerful versatile spellcasting.

For some reasons, I dont like druid. I prefer more "urban" class

Cleric/wizard (mystic theurge)....is that a good idea?


Wrath of god war cleric?

Not sneaky, but versatile, and you can tailor your power by picking bad spells.

What is a "wrath of god war cleric"? I can't find info on this build lol.


Warlocks are fun, or so I've heard, as are sorcerers.

Also, a wizard/fighter isn't nearly as good of a gish build as a straight wizard, but whatevz.

As I said, fluff and RP are important to us. I know wizard/figther is not the best path, but I like it that way.

Will look into warlocks, thx!

jjcrpntr
2014-04-10, 09:15 PM
Cleric/wizard (mystic theurge)....is that a good idea?



I play a mystic theurge and it's a lot of fun. I play it like a redmage from Final Fantasy. I'm up in melee hard to hit, dishing out pain, turning and throwing out a fireball or a heal. It's a blast.

I take a lot of immediate action spells like hesitate and stay the hand, really gets on the DM's nerves but in a fun way.Throw up greater Luminous Armor and Shield, you're a pain in the butt to hit, once you get Divine Power (level 4 spell) and you get a nice boost to str, and your BAB becomes as good as can be. That plus greater magic weapon (level 3 spell for a wizard) you get some extra goodies.

I really enjoy the build. If you really want to have fun with your DM when you get level 5 spells have the heart of X series going (Heart of water, earth, air, fire) along with your luminous armor. You'll be immune to crits, hard to hit, can hit pretty hard (I personally love Knowledge Devotion to get a little extra dmg/+to hit but again it messes with my DM so it's all fun).

The problem with mystic Theurge is that you have to go 3 levels into wizard and cleric before you get access to the PrC so you wouldn't get access to the really nice spells until level 10 (12 for heart of fire). It can work. Honestly it's frustrating to build at low levels but once you get going it can be a lot of fun.
Depending on what your DM allows and what you want to do weapon wise you could do cloistered cleric/Wizard to get extra skillpoints and all knowledge skills for every level, you lose some hit though as a cloister cleric is only a d6 hit die.

herrhauptmann
2014-04-11, 08:26 AM
Wrath of god is just a melee cleric.

I always have mine talk like Arnold doing one-liners. "Ice to meet you."

And straight wizard is a terrible gish. Need to be competent without spells to back you up.

JeminiZero
2014-04-11, 08:47 AM
Perhaps an Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)? A lot depends on what you fill your prayer book with. You can fill virtually any role which you prepare spells for: Battlefield Control? Take Druid spells like Entangle, Kelpstrand [SpC] and Haboob [Sand]. Need to scout? Prepare Spiderhand [BoVD], Invisibility [Trickery Domain] and Forest Eyes [CC]! Need to melee? Prepare Divine Power. Comes with all the fancy divination spells too. And of course, you can also heal.

Red Fel
2014-04-11, 09:13 AM
Two points.

First, be the Paladin (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) you want to see in the world. I've never seen "Lawful Stupid" or "Holier than Thou" on a Paladin's list of class features - those are simply baggage that players bring to the table. If you don't like them, don't use them. A Paladin should be honorable, but also compassionate and a decent person. He doesn't have to be stuffy and inflexible. Those aren't prerequisites. He doesn't have to be all golden hair and shiny teeth and "Stand aside, everyone, I take large steps!" He can be a humble farmer's son doing what he can for the people he meets, full stop. Don't let the performance of bad Paladin caricatures spoil the class for you.

Second, consider a Bard (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/bards-handbook.html). First off, a Bard is a fantastic support role, with abilities like Inspire Confidence, so when you're the DM you can still contribute without taking over. Second, Bards are good for those social/diplomatic scenes. Third, a Bard has a diversity of abilities that let him shore up various holes in the party's toolbox, again without overshadowing anyone. Fourth, Bards can be sneaky too - for example, Mimicking Song lets you grant a Move Silently bonus, and the Sound of Silence feat lets you use Bardic Music to deafen an enemy (as a bonus, that also impedes spellcasting).

SliceandDiceKid
2014-04-11, 09:23 AM
Beguiler is WAY fun to play. If you enjoyed wizard, go beguiler1/wiz4/ultimate magus10
Grab practised spellcaster so you get more levels of wizard. I got to play a lvl 6 build of this and constantly had enemies failing DCs for charm and sleep. Super entertaining!

Artificer is pretty fantastic too. More scribing scrolls, add metamagic to wands. Infuse weapons and armor. The ultimate team player. Check it out in Eberon campaign setting.

Warlock can be good too for obvious reasons.

Druid is another option. Lay down control spells in wild shape. Since you played wiz/fighter, it sounds like this might be a role you'd enjoy. (I just saw you had already addressed druid, but maybe you could reconsider. Find a fun way to RP one. See if the DM will introduce your animal companion injured. If a character aids your AC, you feel indebted or something like that when you show up).

Saintsqc
2014-04-11, 02:34 PM
The problem with mystic Theurge is that you have to go 3 levels into wizard and cleric before you get access to the PrC so you wouldn't get access to the really nice spells until level 10 (12 for heart of fire). It can work. Honestly it's frustrating to build at low levels but once you get going it can be a lot of fun.
Depending on what your DM allows and what you want to do weapon wise you could do cloistered cleric/Wizard to get extra skillpoints and all knowledge skills for every level, you lose some hit though as a cloister cleric is only a d6 hit die.

Allright! Thanks!

The thing is, we start our character lvl 1 and we rarely reach lvl 10+.


Wrath of god is just a melee cleric.

I always have mine talk like Arnold doing one-liners. "Ice to meet you."

And straight wizard is a terrible gish. Need to be competent without spells to back you up.

A melee cleric could be fun, indeed. I will look into this, thanks!


Perhaps an Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3)? A lot depends on what you fill your prayer book with. You can fill virtually any role which you prepare spells for: Battlefield Control? Take Druid spells like Entangle, Kelpstrand [SpC] and Haboob [Sand]. Need to scout? Prepare Spiderhand [BoVD], Invisibility [Trickery Domain] and Forest Eyes [CC]! Need to melee? Prepare Divine Power. Comes with all the fancy divination spells too. And of course, you can also heal.

Not sure about this one, seems too much like a wizard.


Two points.

First, be the Paladin (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/paladins-handbook.html) you want to see in the world. I've never seen "Lawful Stupid" or "Holier than Thou" on a Paladin's list of class features - those are simply baggage that players bring to the table. If you don't like them, don't use them. A Paladin should be honorable, but also compassionate and a decent person. He doesn't have to be stuffy and inflexible. Those aren't prerequisites. He doesn't have to be all golden hair and shiny teeth and "Stand aside, everyone, I take large steps!" He can be a humble farmer's son doing what he can for the people he meets, full stop. Don't let the performance of bad Paladin caricatures spoil the class for you.


You are absolutly right. I have a hard time to picture a character different than the caricature. The class definetely interrest me, though. Do you know if there is a handbook written on different way to play a paladin, RP-wise lol?


Beguiler is WAY fun to play. If you enjoyed wizard, go beguiler1/wiz4/ultimate magus10
Grab practised spellcaster so you get more levels of wizard. I got to play a lvl 6 build of this and constantly had enemies failing DCs for charm and sleep. Super entertaining!

Artificer is pretty fantastic too. More scribing scrolls, add metamagic to wands. Infuse weapons and armor. The ultimate team player. Check it out in Eberon campaign setting.

Warlock can be good too for obvious reasons.

Druid is another option. Lay down control spells in wild shape. Since you played wiz/fighter, it sounds like this might be a role you'd enjoy. (I just saw you had already addressed druid, but maybe you could reconsider. Find a fun way to RP one. See if the DM will introduce your animal companion injured. If a character aids your AC, you feel indebted or something like that when you show up).


Good suggestions ! Never tought about playing an artificer or a warlock.

mabriss lethe
2014-04-11, 02:45 PM
If Races of Destiny is on the table, I'd suggest the chameleon PrC using either rogue or warlock.

SliceandDiceKid
2014-04-11, 02:53 PM
I'm a huge fan of warlocks. Check this out for a few really outside the box ideas.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?337549-Warlock-as-a-Necromancer-(lvl-6)&p=17226786#post17226786

sleepyphoenixx
2014-04-11, 02:54 PM
I suggest a Factotum. It can be sneaky, cunning and witty, is useful in and out of combat and you'll still get some arcane spellcasting and a little healing on the side.
Alternatively, a Cloistered Cleric with the right domains and feats can fill the sneaky diplomat role pretty well and can certainly contribute with his spells.

nedz
2014-04-11, 03:48 PM
For some reasons, I dont like druid. I prefer more "urban" class

There are Urban Druid options.

Either the Urban Druid class from Dragon Compendium or the various City ACFs from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (There are several options here)

iceman10058
2014-04-11, 04:21 PM
rogue/warlock umd from both classes and the warlock abilities will allow you to have wands of clw and will allow you to fill in different party roles as needed.

Red Fel
2014-04-11, 07:01 PM
You are absolutly right. I have a hard time to picture a character different than the caricature. The class definetely interrest me, though. Do you know if there is a handbook written on different way to play a paladin, RP-wise lol?

I don't know about a handbook on how to RP a Paladin, but I remember there was a thread here awhile back about a Paladin who basically won at Paladining forever. It had something to do with noble sacrifice, the DM's trap had spiraled out of control and the Paladin gave his life for the party, there was wailing and gnashing of teeth, something something, Paladin was saved, barely alive, jumped back into the fray smiling and saying "Paladin."

It's a terrible synopsis, but a beautiful post. (If someone has it earmarked and could dig it up?)

There are similar posts scattered all over the forums. Really, there's no "right" way to play a Paladin, but there are certainly "better" ones. As a rule, if your Paladin is compassionate, warm, genuinely caring, hard-working, and well-loved by the party, you're doing something right. If he's self-centered, arrogant, stuffy, stiff, holier-than-thou, or constantly in the spotlight, you're doing something wrong. Alternatively, if your intent was to play a terrible caricature, you're doing something right.

herrhauptmann
2014-04-11, 10:24 PM
I don't know about a handbook on how to RP a Paladin, but I remember there was a thread here awhile back about a Paladin who basically won at Paladining forever. It had something to do with noble sacrifice, the DM's trap had spiraled out of control and the Paladin gave his life for the party, there was wailing and gnashing of teeth, something something, Paladin was saved, barely alive, jumped back into the fray smiling and saying "Paladin."

It's a terrible synopsis, but a beautiful post. (If someone has it earmarked and could dig it up?)

There are similar posts scattered all over the forums. Really, there's no "right" way to play a Paladin, but there are certainly "better" ones. As a rule, if your Paladin is compassionate, warm, genuinely caring, hard-working, and well-loved by the party, you're doing something right. If he's self-centered, arrogant, stuffy, stiff, holier-than-thou, or constantly in the spotlight, you're doing something wrong. Alternatively, if your intent was to play a terrible caricature, you're doing something right.

Trap fills with water, and he used a crusader ability to break the healing wall and throw people out? Died at the last second, ended up with some of the players crying at his sacrifice?
Yeah, it was also on Reddit not too long ago too.

SliceandDiceKid
2014-04-11, 10:39 PM
Trap fills with water, and he used a crusader ability to break the healing wall and throw people out? Died at the last second, ended up with some of the players crying at his sacrifice?
Yeah, it was also on Reddit not too long ago too.

Now I want to read this

oxybe
2014-04-11, 11:49 PM
cleric of a trickster god is always fun. you can often get access to enchantment and illusion spells which are great for debuffing common enemies, like humanoids of every stripe, and getting you out of social jams. or in them, if you prefer that kind of thing. this also lets you dual support with the other cleric when he's present without stepping on his toes.

it also meshes well and supports the cleric's common role as the party face.

grab alchemy crafting for an extra layer of versatility. it's uses tend to peter off as you gain spell levels, but thunderstones and smokesticks still make good diversions regardless of level and they only become cheaper as you level up.

Coidzor
2014-04-12, 12:02 AM
Do you dislike bards for the Inspire Courage part, their lack of a clear role as melee or ranged combatants, the spellcasting, or...?

Because if you're OK with the Inspire Courage part at least, a 4 level stint as a Bard before going into Warblade or Crusader(Le Bardblade/Bardsader) with Song of the White Raven gets you everything you need for kickass Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration while also being a martial adept and handling like one with slightly lower HP. Can definitely handle the social skills that way.

There's also the A Game Paladin that gets Inspire Courage and is a Paladin.


Allright! Thanks!

The thing is, we start our character lvl 1 and we rarely reach lvl 10+.

Oh. :/ In that case, no matter what you do, you'll be better off just keeping your already existing level 7 character than starting off as a level 1 character in a party with level 6+ characters.

Devils_Advocate
2014-04-12, 10:21 AM
By popular request: How to roleplay a paladin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150139-A-Noble-Death)


Cleric/wizard (mystic theurge)....is that a good idea?
No. Never. :P

Seriously, though, Wizard and Cleric have basically no synergy, and Mystic Theurge is widely regarded amongst optimizers as a sub-par prestige class. Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster would be a much better idea if you want to try a different Wizard multiclass.


Not sure about this one, seems too much like a wizard.
But Wizard is your favorite class, and you were considering playing one. It's hard to see how anything else can be too much like a wizard if a wizard isn't too like a wizard. Archivist is definitely a better cross between Wizard and Cleric than Mystic Theurge.

Is it that it doesn't seem like it would be different enough of an experience to be worth learning how to use the class properly? I've felt that way about psionics, sometimes. I be all like, sure, there are some intriguing differences from spellcasting, but are they enough to justify reading all this?

Speaking of which, psions are pretty boss. And psychic warriors are kind of like paladins and melee clerics and gishes in that they're hard-fightin' mofos who buff themselves through the use of magical mystical mojo. Except that instead of invoking magic through elaborate arcane rituals or drawing on the power of the divine, they achieve supernatural effects by thinking at things extra hard with their mutant brains.


Oh. :/ In that case, no matter what you do, you'll be better off just keeping your already existing level 7 character than starting off as a level 1 character in a party with level 6+ characters.
Saintsqc is asking for help deciding on what sort of backup character to design in case that character dies.

That is an unusually traditional group playstyle for a 3.5 game, though. I'd think that character concepts with unusually high survivability would be good ideas, in that case, so that the party doesn't need to avoid as much more danger than usual to keep your low level ass from getting killed.

I seem to recall that survivability is supposed to be the one thing that Monk has going for it, but is it especially good at that at low levels? What options might be best for that purpose? I suspect that the above-mentioned Psychic Warrior might be a good bet with an early focus on defense, but my knowledge of 3.5 is far from comprehensive.

Actually, a high-Charisma paladin would probably be good for that because save bonuses. Along with heavy armor proficiency. And with Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills along with high Cha, the character could be good at social interaction. But at the same time, probably not the leader, because Int is a Paladin dump stat, so we're probably not talking about the brains of the operation here.

So: Social skills, some healing, melee combat, not the leader, survivability, bravery, altruism... Yes. That sounds pretty good. Maybe you should do that.

Coidzor
2014-04-12, 01:20 PM
Saintsqc is asking for help deciding on what sort of backup character to design in case that character dies.

That is an unusually traditional group playstyle for a 3.5 game, though. I'd think that character concepts with unusually high survivability would be good ideas, in that case, so that the party doesn't need to avoid as much more danger than usual to keep your low level ass from getting killed.

I seem to recall that survivability is supposed to be the one thing that Monk has going for it, but is it especially good at that at low levels? What options might be best for that purpose? I suspect that the above-mentioned Psychic Warrior might be a good bet with an early focus on defense, but my knowledge of 3.5 is far from comprehensive.

Paying for Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection then. Better a level 6 character than a level 1 character. And if they've banned raise dead and have this rather bad rule about starting off as a level 1 character in a group of higher level ones, then there's no really helping them without significant social engineering.

That said, a Crusader is far more durable and survivable at low levels than a Paladin, but that matters a lot less when one is entering into melee combat as an active participant against things that should be threatening to level 6 or 7 characters, hence the SOL part.

Monks do not really do the whole survivability thing all that well, and since ToB is on the table, he'd be better off just being a swordsage except for some fringe cases.

Tedective
2014-04-12, 05:23 PM
A gnome cleric with the Trickery and Luck domains, only acts as a cleric when not observed (which is most of the time) and just hovers around the PC's acting as the good guy no one sees.
Doesn't wear armor, and prefers wis>dex>cha>int>con>str
You get to be a rogue, a diplomat, and when PCing, a stealthy healbot.

Gavinfoxx
2014-04-13, 01:25 AM
Starting off at low levels worked in AD&D, it no longer works well in 3.5e...

Saintsqc
2014-04-13, 09:10 AM
@ Devils_advocate : Damn, this post about the paladin is inspiring! I want to play a paladin too!

You guys have given me good suggestions. Thank you very much!

Gavinfoxx
2014-04-13, 11:48 AM
I would talk to the GM and say, 'I know you have been starting new characters at level 1 because that is how it was sometimes done in AD&D -- but I think we should consider making it so that everyone plays a character of the same effective character level. 3.5e works better that way. What do you think?'

cricricri13
2014-04-13, 12:35 PM
I would rather say you keep staying on your own classes, because you already took a warrior (primarilly tank, secondary hitter) and a wizard (primary control secondary pretty much every other role) so if you use beguiler (primary hitter) is getting confusing, remember to keep your character in cohesion with itself or you might end as being bad in everything, tell the rogue to start picking diplomacy stuff, it's his job. If not. Well I guess beguiler is a cool class, but beware, 3 class is already getting very near to where the multiclass starts being a problem, specially for casters that end with only low-level spells, both fluff and stats wise you shoult try to maintain a character on a role and let the rest take the other roles, if not, at high levels you'll all end very low on CR wich leads to boring encounters (or even worse, the DM maintaining a normall CR and killing half the people)

Devils_Advocate
2014-04-14, 06:58 PM
This thread is about making a backup character in case Saintsqc's current character dies. Not additional multiclassing! My neutrality, can people not be bothered to read the first paragraph of the opening post? :/


Good suggestions ! Never tought about playing an artificer or a warlock.
I quite like how Artificer seems to consolidate most of the core skills (Use Magic Device, Craft, Appraise, Knowledge (architecture and engineering)) and feats (the item creation feats) that aren't of particular use to any other particular class. It's also a good dorfy class that lets dwarves make good use of their skill bonuses and stonecunning, which aren't so helpful in the typical warrior role.

It should be noted that high Charisma of dubious value to an artificer, because although Use Magic Device is a very important Artificer skill, it's the only thing they need Cha for, and one skill modifier is more efficiently raised by means other than increasing the associated Ability score. In any case, Intelligence is considerably more important.

Anyway, on the one hand, you get indirect access to all of the spells in the game, which is obviously pretty impressive. On the other hand, everyone gets that just by being able to buy magic items instead of making them. But this is in addition to infusions! And Craft Reserve, Item Creation, Retain Essence, Metamagic Spell Trigger, and spell storing item combine to let you efficiently and flexibly manage wealth like no other magic item producer. Managing wealth being another thing that dwarves like to do.

If your group doesn't use action points, I wouldn't be concerned. I don't think that artificers actually need to be able to hasten infusions any more than other classes need to be able to get extra uses of their class features or characters in general need to be able to get the bonus to a roll. Still, the Heroic Spirit feat (also from the Eberron Campaign Setting) grants action points even to characters that don't normally get them. Unearthed Arcana has additional uses for action points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) as well.


Paying for Raise Dead/Resurrection/True Resurrection then. Better a level 6 character than a level 1 character.
Hmmm. Well, assuming that XP are worth 5 gp apiece -- the market price -- that's pretty much the only financially sensible decision. Yes, I concur. Your assessment is essentially a mathematical truth.

And if raise dead is not available for purchase, then it would probably be a good idea to play a cleric to increase the odds that someone in the party will be able to cast it, eventually. (Hopefully at least the material component is available, and affordable given the party's level!) A cleric of one o' them paladin gods of paladins (Heironeous, Torm, Dol Arrah, etc.) can be roleplayed pretty much like a paladin, too.

Although... actually, an artificer would be able to scribe a scroll of the spell 2 levels earlier than a cleric, right?


And if they've banned raise dead and have this rather bad rule about starting off as a level 1 character in a group of higher level ones, then there's no really helping them without significant social engineering.
I wonder whether the limit applies to ECL or just level.

Pixies rogues are pretty effective.


That said, a Crusader is far more durable and survivable at low levels than a Paladin, but that matters a lot less when one is entering into melee combat as an active participant against things that should be threatening to level 6 or 7 characters, hence the SOL part.
I assume that they fight lower-level threats when there are low-level characters in the party. My understanding is that under the traditional playstyle in which characters start at level 1, monsters with Challenge Ratings near the party's level do not spontaneously materialize nearby groups of adventurers. ;) Instead, they fight whatever sort of monsters there are at the locations they venture to. Crazy idea, I know! :P

The reason to avoid that is that a high-level group can do rather more interesting things than help a novice with a rat-slaying quest so he can gain experience.


Starting off at low levels worked in AD&D, it no longer works well in 3.5e...
What change makes it unworkable?

RavynsLand
2014-04-14, 07:07 PM
Maybe you'd like a Grey Guard (Complete Scoundrel), they are like, psychotic Inquisitor-flavored paladins who are allowed to torture and flog people in the name of paladin stuff, and they get their code of conduct relaxed specifically so that they can do all of those things.

Coidzor
2014-04-14, 07:14 PM
I assume that they fight lower-level threats when there are low-level characters in the party. My understanding is that under the traditional playstyle in which characters start at level 1, monsters with Challenge Ratings near the party's level do not spontaneously materialize nearby groups of adventurers. ;) Instead, they fight whatever sort of monsters there are at the locations they venture to. Crazy idea, I know! :P

The reason to avoid that is that a high-level group can do rather more interesting things than help a novice with a rat-slaying quest so he can gain experience.

My exposure to the concept is that either A. they are in fact going up against stuff that's appropriate to the higher level characters or B. they're going up against stuff that's still higher level than they are but lower level than the higher level characters by going through EL calculations.

So generally they do not help the scrubs with piddly stuff until they can actually contribute, and it's more of a matter of dumb luck whether they survive and/or indirectly cause the deaths of the higher level characters because the DM is confused about how the system works and applies pressure that having a lower level character in that party role fails to address.

Shining Wrath
2014-04-14, 07:23 PM
Lots of good suggestions.

Trying to add something new: Dragonfire Adept. Like a Warlock but not as evil-ish, you get invocations like the Warlock (and shouldn't take the social skills one due to your DMing problem), you get a breath weapon instead of eldritch blast, and ...

you can take the Draconic Aura (Vigor) feat, and have a 30' radius fast healing 1 / round aura. It only brings people up to 50% of maximum, but that's often very useful and it auto-stabilizes unconscious allies.