On Clerical Battles and Retroactive Death

[Emerald141]

While adventuring in the Dungeon of Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Durkon swings twice at an enemy goblin, but misses. Once Roy reminds him of the various damage bonuses he gets, however, the goblin spontaneously develops severe injuries and falls down dead.

The events of this battle occurred according to what Durkon thought should have happened; once Roy changed Durkon's perception of what should have happened, the events of the battle changed retroactively. This implies that, in a battle, if one party becomes aware that a previous attack should have gone differently, then the effects of that attack will immediately be altered.

Much later, during the Battle of Azure City, the High Priest of the Twelve Gods is destructed by Redcloak during a truly epic duel of powerful and awe-inspiring magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). When he reviews the battle in the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html), however, he remarks that he should have been able to make his saving throw and avoid being killed by Redcloak's final spell.

If retroactive battle changes can be used to damage opponents, then why shouldn't they also be able to avoid damage? It thus may have been in the High Priest's power to reverse time back to his fateful battle and continue the fight with Redcloak.

The remaining spells that Redcloak uses that day, listed by the comic he uses them in, are:
457 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html): Summon Chlorine Elemental
457 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html): Blade Barrier
459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) (and in following off-panel scenes): Multiple uses of Rebuke Undead
465 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html): Cure Critical Wounds
480 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html): Disintegrate

With the exception of Disintegrate (and possibly Summon Chlorine Elemental), none of these would have been any danger to the Azurite High Priest. Redcloak's ability to participate in the fight was thus running low.

The High Priest, on the other hand, was in the courtyard during the whole battle. The courtyard had only been breached shortly before the duel began, so it is safe to assume that he had cast no offensive spells that day before encountering Redcloak. Being a high-level caster, he presumably had several spells remaining that could have severely damaged his goblin enemy.

If the High Priest had won the duel, Redcloak and Jirix would never have been able to ride to Xykon's rescue, and Soon probably would have been able to destroy the lich before Miko showed up to destroy the Gate. Soon would thus have enough time to halt Miko's sword, preventing the city's devastation, and tell her or somebody else about the nature of Xykon's phylactery. The heroes would have been able to seize the phylactery for themselves and work out a means of destroying it, thus permanently ending Xykon's threat.

Thus by the simple act of failing to follow through on Durkon's precedent, the Azurite High Priest created a complication that doomed the fight against Xykon to span four more books, when he could have easily ended it early. Much of the blame for the protagonists' troubles can thus be placed squarely on him.

Thoughts? :smallconfused:

(And if it wasn't clear, yes, this is just tongue-in-cheek. I'm just trying to have a little fun with off-the-wall theories. :smalltongue:)

[hagnat]

perhaps a 22 still wasnt enough to make his saving throw :P

oooor... the rules only apply during the same encounter :P

[Zmeoaice]

Like a real D&D game, sometimes people make mistakes. When these mistakes are noticed by the Dungeon Master, it can be undone, but only after shortly after the mistake has been noticed. If someone makes a mistake that causes something like death to happen, and the campaign moves on, the person isn't going to be resurrected to make up for it.

Durkon realized that he would have hit the goblin shortly after Roy told him, so the Goblin got hit. However the cleric didn't realize that his saving throw would have worked until Azure City has been destroyed.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's probably a whole time limit thing. If you notice, or have your mistake pointed out to you, during combat, then you can retroactively change things. However, if your already dead and gone, then you get no second chance. There's a chance a 22 wouldn't have saved either, and the High Priest was just pointing that out. Even then, I feel confidant that Redcloak could defeat him.

[Keltest]

Due to the law of the conservation of plot, had the priest actually made his saving throw, rocks would have fallen and killed him, or the Dark One would have shot purple lightning at him for daring to stand against him.

[konradknox]

I like this thread just for the in-depth analysis. Good job. +1

[DaggerPen]

I think the rule is that you can go back and retroactively apply/avoid damage as long as nothing major has happened since then. So Durkon can hit goblins in retrospect, and Haley can heal up some of the sneak attack damage from her Improved Uncanny Dodge, because little enough time has passed that the DM universe can go "Oh, okay, let's just change that." Whereas with the Azure City High Priest, everything had already moved on, and it would have involved completely redoing everything that had happened since then, so it couldn't be corrected without affecting a lot of other things that had already happened.

[Jay R]

Because what happened in #34 was a good, funny joke based on something that happens fairly often in D&D games, all within a melee round or two. Thus, the strip is distinguished social commentary.

By contrast, what happens to the cleric in #456 is a mistake not recognized until 30 strips later, in #486. In D&D terms, the player realized that his character shouldn't have died after rolling up a new character and playing him for awhile. The statement in #486 is just a quick joke.

[King of Nowhere]

You're not the first to suggest this. it's one of those thread that pop up every oncce in a while.
Anyway, what everyone else said is a good answer. oots world works on handwavium: things go on as long as you don't pay too much atention to them. you don't need to keep arrows as long as you pretend you're pulling them from somewhere and no one inquires. You can fast-forward time by saying "later that night". You can alter the result of a fight if you notice a mathematical error. But that's only for small things. redoing the battle for azure city would have been too much.

Still, I don't think a 22 would have been enough. destruction is a 7th level spell, so for 22 to save against it redcloak must have had no more than +5 to wisdom, and no spell focus. Really, a cleric of at least 15th level, most likely 16th, carrying a major artifact made specifically for clerics, a cleric who can create magic items (he made the phylactery for xykon), that carries no weapon and relies solely on spells, and he would be stuck with a wisdom of 21? Didn't he spend all his stat boosts every 4 levels on wisdom? didn't he make for himself a talisma of wisdom +6, or at least +4 ? Was he the only cleric to start with a wisdom score of 12 at first level?
No, a 22 would not save. even a 25 may not be enough.

[factotum]

The two events are not really comparable, not only because of the time that elapsed between the event and realising the consequence in each case, but also because the plot hadn't really started in strip #34 and it was still largely a gag-a-day comic making fun of D&D rules, whereas things were obviously in full swing by the time the priest of Azure City died. To put it another way: it made no difference to the on-going story whether Durkon killed the goblin in that round or the next; it would have made a huge difference to the plot if the priest had somehow resurrected himself and gone after Redcloak again.