No-Magic Campaign Against Magic-Wielding Enemies?

[Lord Lemming]

I had an idea for a Pathfinder campaign that I wanted to run past more experienced players. It takes place in a land where magic is commonly believed to be a myth, only used in secret by a small number of individuals, and may not even be recognized as such. What this means for the players is that they cannot take levels in wizard, cleric, druid, or other primary casters. Ranger is OK, paladin would work too if you could figure out a way to work it into the fluff. Bard might be on the table too, since their powers are not particularly world shattering. But it basically comes down to the only classes being available are tier 3's and below, fighter, barbarian, monk, rogue, as well as the ones stated above.

While the PLAYERS are bound to limited classes, the land is soon invaded by what amounts to a nation of magic-users holed up in a flying fortress, from which they rain down fire, dispatch raiding parties of apprentice wizards and magically-enhanced henchmen, and take what they desire. Now the PC get to figure out how to survive in a war where the enemies can reshape reality on a whim, and the good guys... can't. Or maybe, just maybe, if they work together and use their brains (and any magic items they can take from the enemy), they can actually win.

Would this actually work? From what I understand, most DM restrictions of this type are attempts to keep the players from having any real agency in their world. After all, it's much easier to keep players on the rails when the bad guys can teleport and the good guys can't. But that isn't the plan here; the intention here is to create a scenario where the players are not at the top of the food chain, which makes their final victory all the more satisfying.

Am I just fooling myself? I have no intention of forcing my players to play in this campaign unless they all agree to it; but even if they do agree to it, is this actually going to be as fun as I imagine it to be? Also, what does removing all the primary casters do to balance?

[VoxRationis]

It depends entirely on what sort of spells the antagonists have. In all likelihood, they would lose miserably if the enemy used their spells intelligently.
Also, how would they win? They could win their personal engagements, maybe, but the rest of the war would overwhelmingly favor the side with magic. At best, they'd end up as jaded Malcolm Reynolds-style veterans still holding on long after the rest of them lost. Is there some piece to pull that makes that flying fortress come crashing down?

[Lord Lemming]

It depends entirely on what sort of spells the antagonists have. In all likelihood, they would lose miserably if the enemy used their spells intelligently.
Also, how would they win? They could win their personal engagements, maybe, but the rest of the war would overwhelmingly favor the side with magic. At best, they'd end up as jaded Malcolm Reynolds-style veterans still holding on long after the rest of them lost. Is there some piece to pull that makes that flying fortress come crashing down?

I imagine that the first few engagements would be against apprentice wizards with limited capabilities and their lackeys, lackeys armed with nice shiny magical items that the PCs might be able to appropriate. And yes, the flying fortress does have a piece to pull that would send it crashing down, the problem is getting there with an army of wizards and the laws of physics in the way.

EDIT: Also, just because the fortress is down and ruined doesn't mean the war is over. There would still be a lot of angry wizards and their soldiers to deal with. And there would probably be other consequences to destroying a building that was probably more than half made of magic...

Oh, and what's wrong with playing Malcolm Reynolds-style veterans? Firefly in Pathfinder sounds like a great idea to me! :smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

It depends entirely on what sort of spells the antagonists have. In all likelihood, they would lose miserably if the enemy used their spells intelligently.
Also, how would they win? They could win their personal engagements, maybe, but the rest of the war would overwhelmingly favor the side with magic. At best, they'd end up as jaded Malcolm Reynolds-style veterans still holding on long after the rest of them lost. Is there some piece to pull that makes that flying fortress come crashing down?

A whole lot of this. At any given level, an intelligently-played, reasonably-prepared caster will beat a non-caster with very little fuss. An entire nation of casters will dominate the landscape before lunchtime.

Casters can fly. Casters can be invisible. Casters can Fighter better than Fighter, Monk better than Monk, and Rogue better than Rogue. Casters can summon minions if their own tactics are insufficient. And all of this is before the really powerful stuff, like Wish, Miracle and Gate.

Your PCs might stand a chance if they take on the casters one at a time, or at the end of the day after they've run out of spells. But even those tactics won't last long against an army that can use divinations to figure out who's been harassing their scouts. Moreso if the casters are played intelligently, retreating as needed and returning with superior numbers and preparations.

Basically, the only way your PCs could reasonably defeat an army/nation of casters is to simultaneously take them all out at once in a single surgical strike, and at low levels that simply isn't possible.

Now, admittedly, you could play them like rampant idiots. That would work fine. Have each caster prepare easy spells, like Fireball, and simply sit there dropping easily avoided spells while the party gangs up on them and curbstomps them. That would be manageable. It would also get old by the third time.

Another alternative is to give the players some kind of antimagic equipment or magebane gear that dramatically reduces the effectiveness of enemy casters' spells while dramatically increasing the PCs' effectiveness against them. But that's like giving someone artifact religious symbols that automatically cast Turn Undead infinitely in a zombie campaign.

Yet another alternative, and perhaps a more palatable one, is to make power available to the PCs. For example, they manage to capture a rogue caster from the enemy nation, who tutors them and lets them all take levels in a primary caster class. (Note that this isn't necessarily helpful; some might not want to take levels in a primary caster class.) Or, you could simply bar one type of magic - for example, no arcane casters of any stripe - and give that to the enemy nation. The PCs would still have the opportunity to take levels in divine magic, however, which would allow Clerics, Druids, and Rangers.

The core notion - an enemy nation with an unknown power emerges to wreak havoc - isn't a bad idea. The problem is that when that power dwarfs anything the PCs can do, it'll go south really fast unless you start giving your PCs some serious plot armor.

[Lord Lemming]

Yet another alternative, and perhaps a more palatable one, is to make power available to the PCs. For example, they manage to capture a rogue caster from the enemy nation, who tutors them and lets them all take levels in a primary caster class. (Note that this isn't necessarily helpful; some might not want to take levels in a primary caster class.) Or, you could simply bar one type of magic - for example, no arcane casters of any stripe - and give that to the enemy nation. The PCs would still have the opportunity to take levels in divine magic, however, which would allow Clerics, Druids, and Rangers.

The core notion - an enemy nation with an unknown power emerges to wreak havoc - isn't a bad idea. The problem is that when that power dwarfs anything the PCs can do, it'll go south really fast unless you start giving your PCs some serious plot armor.

I like the idea of allowing divine power and giving arcane power to the baddies. It would certainly make the logistics of healing a lot easier. On the other hand, when the classes available are a bunch of tier 3s and 4s, and one tier 1, you would think it would exacerbate the problem of tier envy. You'd basically have one or two clerics saving the world while the fighters and rogues look on enviously.

And I see your point about plot armor and playing the baddies stupid, it would make things old awfully fast.

[Gavinfoxx]

I once came up with a setting / thought experiment for giving all the PC's divine power...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?163569-Help-me-with-a-thought-experiment-setting-idea-Some-Archivist-stuff-too!

[Eisenheim]

I think reversing the divine/arcane thing could make a really interesting and possibly enjoyable scary campaign. Imagine this: the players have access to mundane classes and arcane magic, though for atmosphere reasons probably nothing tier 1 or 2, but everyone has always understood the gods to be absent/uninterested in the mortal realm. Now, suddenly, these new enemies appear, and the gods are undeniably on their side. They can recover from wounds that would kill any other mortal, they can even come back from the dead.

Clearly you would have to be judicious in deploying high level clerics if the PC's are limited to tier 3 and below, but there's a real opportunity for a grim and interestingly atmospheric campaign world here, especially if the players try to fight back with sinister options: deals with devils, pact magic, Ur-Priest levels perhaps.

[Lord Lemming]

I think reversing the divine/arcane thing could make a really interesting and possibly enjoyable scary campaign. Imagine this: the players have access to mundane classes and arcane magic, though for atmosphere reasons probably nothing tier 1 or 2, but everyone has always understood the gods to be absent/uninterested in the mortal realm. Now, suddenly, these new enemies appear, and the gods are undeniably on their side. They can recover from wounds that would kill any other mortal, they can even come back from the dead.

Clearly you would have to be judicious in deploying high level clerics if the PC's are limited to tier 3 and below, but there's a real opportunity for a grim and interestingly atmospheric campaign world here, especially if the players try to fight back with sinister options: deals with devils, pact magic, Ur-Priest levels perhaps.

Ooooh, I'm loving this idea.

[WarKitty]

This also sounds like a good case for working in classic villanous hubris. The casters are so very certain of their superiority that they presume any simple spell will defeat their enemies, and they don't want to divert too many resources away from their comforts. Why cast any protections beyond wall of fire? It's not like those puny mundane idiots out there can counteract it anyway.

[Lord Lemming]

This also sounds like a good case for working in classic villanous hubris. The casters are so very certain of their superiority that they presume any simple spell will defeat their enemies, and they don't want to divert too many resources away from their comforts. Why cast any protections beyond wall of fire? It's not like those puny mundane idiots out there can counteract it anyway.

That's a good point, and I like the theme; though as Red Fel pointed out earlier, making them rampant idiots can get old fast.

The fluff for this campaign says that the floating fortress is a relic from ages past, the last remaining fragment of a flying city that was truly the pinnacle of human achievement on this world. What's left is far beyond the capabilities of those who inhabit it, who pretty much can't do anything beyond steer it (if that) and siphon off bits of its power to create the odd airship or two. What this might mean for the players is that the wizards themselves are not that powerful. How would it affect your calculations if the average wizard is lvl 3 or 5, with high-ranking ones maybe at 7th or 9th level, and only the truly elite going beyond that?

EDIT: I imagine in this case the players would probably start off low-level as well.

[WarKitty]

Another thought: since the PC's aren't using magic, you can houserule what spells are available without any problems. So maybe the summon monster line (one that easily lets even low-level wizards out-fighter the fighter) just doesn't exist. Or if it exists, it's locked away in a dusty tome no one knows how to read.

You can excise as much of the wizard's power as you like this way. There's no rule that says the wizards have to have access to all the spells ever printed in D&D. Maybe they're preparing a lot of fireballs because that really is one of the most powerful attack spells in your universe.

[Lord Lemming]

Another thought: since the PC's aren't using magic, you can houserule what spells are available without any problems. So maybe the summon monster line (one that easily lets even low-level wizards out-fighter the fighter) just doesn't exist. Or if it exists, it's locked away in a dusty tome no one knows how to read.

You can excise as much of the wizard's power as you like this way. There's no rule that says the wizards have to have access to all the spells ever printed in D&D. Maybe they're preparing a lot of fireballs because that really is one of the most powerful attack spells in your universe.

Good point. I don't have to play the wizards stupid if their arsenal is limited. Compared to what unpowered mortals can achieve, the flashy-but-impractical spells are still effective.

EDIT: There was another point I wanted an opinion on. Quite apart from the issues of balance, how do you think most players would feel about a game where their options are so limited? I see threads all over the place from players who are frustrated with their DMs systematically removing all their favorite parts of the system in the name of balance or campaign. I don't want to be one of those DMs.

[Gavinfoxx]

@LL: What do you think of my thread and concept?

[Lord Lemming]

@LL: What do you think of my thread and concept?

Well, I'm not really experienced enough to make much in the way of judgments on other people's ideas. That's why I'm here in the first place, right? :smalltongue:

But the idea certainly seems interesting, from a fluff perspective. One thing that pops off the top of my head is: If the PCs are each champions of their god, and the contest goes until one side or the other is dead, what happens when one or more of the PCs inevitably dies before the campaign's end? Maybe a random encounter goes south, or they lose a battle with the other team but the survivors manage to escape. How do you handle replacing player characters when the player characters are by definition irreplaceable?

EDIT: Ack, I've managed to derail my own thread.

[Gavinfoxx]

One thing that pops off the top of my head is: If the PCs are each champions of their god, and the contest goes until one side or the other is dead, what happens when one or more of the PCs inevitably dies before the campaign's end?

I think I addressed that... read the repiles of that thread. ;)

And they wouldn't be directly FIGHTING the other team... it would be indirect as the actions of each team affect the other group's area...

[Knaight]

I could see this working, at low levels. I strongly recommend E6 for this, possibly with some serious restrictions on mages nonetheless - think thematic sorcerers who don't end up getting the nastiest spells most of the time. You might have a mage who can only cast spells relating to the air - wind wall, gust of wind, maybe some sort of highly limited summon monster with just birds, etc. Full on wizards should probably be kept few and far between, if used at all.

[WarKitty]

Good point. I don't have to play the wizards stupid if their arsenal is limited. Compared to what unpowered mortals can achieve, the flashy-but-impractical spells are still effective.

EDIT: There was another point I wanted an opinion on. Quite apart from the issues of balance, how do you think most players would feel about a game where their options are so limited? I see threads all over the place from players who are frustrated with their DMs systematically removing all their favorite parts of the system in the name of balance or campaign. I don't want to be one of those DMs.

I think it shouldn't be an issue so long as you are upfront about everything. It's mostly annoying when you're mid-game and the DM wants to rebalance things. E6 is a good idea. The only caveat is I would try to make some healing available early on - if the players can't cast healing spells themselves, have early opponents drop some 1/day healing amulets or something.

[Reshy]

I'd allow the PCs to use classes like the Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, and probably psions. Those classes have either psionics or spell-like abilities, but no explicit spells. It would be interesting to see a campaign with magic vs 'mundane' abilities like SLAs and psionics.


Oh, and make it so the PCs can use magic and psionic devices. While they can't 'Do the Wizard' this means they can buy a wand of cure light wounds and generally have to macguyver and improvise with their limited pseudo-spells.


EDIT: Consider also substituting some of the magic user levels with more mundane classes so they don't totally break the PCs in half. Remember it takes only a few levels to lock a wizard out of his 9th level spells. Generally speaking, multiclassing weakens magic users heavily, enough that it may be balanced. Generally speaking however Tier 1 classes are all magical, so you're going to be setting tier 3 or lower characters against classes that are just plain better.

[Knaight]

I think it shouldn't be an issue so long as you are upfront about everything. It's mostly annoying when you're mid-game and the DM wants to rebalance things. E6 is a good idea. The only caveat is I would try to make some healing available early on - if the players can't cast healing spells themselves, have early opponents drop some 1/day healing amulets or something.

I don't think this is really necessary - pacing comes into this. Without the heavy daily power stuff that comes with magic, it makes total sense for there to be a fight more on the order of once per week than four times per day. Natural healing covers this pretty nicely, particularly as the feats that boost it (you might need to swipe these from 3.5, CWar, but it's not like they aren't compatible) suddenly become valuable.

[Lord Lemming]

I didn't actually know what E6 meant before you guys mentioned it and I looked it up. We're actually planning on sticking to a variant of that for the game we're playing now, only with 9th level being the cap.

[UrbanizedKnave]

At best, they'd end up as jaded Malcolm Reynolds-style veterans still holding on long after the rest of them lost.

I would play in this campaign.

[PraxisVetli]

My 2cp.
I've been in an rp later becoming campaign, where we did something fairly similiar. To compensate for the lack of power, technology and low level psionics were available.
Now, tech might not be available, but mild psionics maybe?

I would play in this campaign.
Also, this.