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BananaPhone
2014-04-10, 08:06 PM
As the tin says: is a druid "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to shave their legs?

I ask this because at my local gaming group this topic brought about a surprising division.

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

The second camp argued that personal grooming would still be permitted, otherwise all male druids would have beards down to their ankles by the time they're 30, in addition to obscenely long, disheveled hair and creepy neckbeard-esque long fingernails.

So, what do others think?

Slipperychicken
2014-04-10, 08:14 PM
By the rules, I think so. Bear in mind the tremendous possibility for variation within the druid class.


But honestly, this sounds like an awesome division to have in-universe, with "orthodox" druids (and their followers) preaching near-total rejection of civilized culture, while relatively liberal druids are willing to accept the trappings of civilization to varying degrees as long as it doesn't compromise their core values. The division might also help to polarize their attitudes toward city-dwellers and townsfolk.

erikun
2014-04-10, 08:21 PM
If we are talking D&D, Druids may use metal swords to stab people and metal knives to cut small game. They have no problem with properly forged metals in these cases, so I wonder why a razor would be taboo. (Druids are also fine with haircuts, last time I checked.) The general goal of Druids were not complete destruction of all technology, but a balance or equilibrium between civilization and wilderness.

That said, as Slipperychicken mentioned, there might be very good RP reasons (perhaps even ingrained into druid society) that would make it taboo or frowned upon. And individuals may decide not to do so for personal reasons, of course.

TheCountAlucard
2014-04-10, 08:46 PM
Depilatories are also an option! :smalltongue:

OracleofWuffing
2014-04-10, 09:10 PM
If we're tossing out all but the most rudimentary of technology and comforts, then Druids shouldn't be able to use scrolls, read books, wear clothes, or use magic items. Which would almost balance the class out with Fighters.

For what it's worth, the Druid on page 47 of Sandstorm looks pretty clean shaven. I mean, I know going by book illustrations is probably even worse than going by sage FAQ, but still.

Talyn
2014-04-10, 09:12 PM
Not to mention that you can shave with sharpened flakes of stone, or sea shells. You don't need steel (or bronze) razors to shave.

On the other hand, shaving one's legs is generally out of place in a quasi-medieval era anyways. Women shaving under their arms and their legs only became a "thing" in Western Europe/the United States after the first World War, when sleeveless dresses over bare arms became fashionable. For the rest of human history, the only hair the a woman, even a fashion-conscious, "civilized" woman, would shave (or pluck!) would be around their eyebrows and, if they were unlucky, on their lips and chin.

Leviting
2014-04-10, 09:13 PM
use knives made of obsidian or bone. No metal allowed! But still cut hair.You don't need to be civilized to do that.

Excession
2014-04-10, 09:24 PM
IIRC around Roman times one method of shaving was to scrub with a pumice stone. No metal required. Also, ow.

Knaight
2014-04-10, 09:24 PM
But honestly, this sounds like an awesome division to have in-universe, with "orthodox" druids (and their followers) preaching near-total rejection of civilized culture, while relatively liberal druids are willing to accept the trappings of civilization to varying degrees as long as it doesn't compromise their core values. The division might also help to polarize their attitudes toward city-dwellers and townsfolk.

I would second this - and also note that both of these have fantasy archetypes backing them up. The wild man with a beard down to their ankles, unkempt long hair, and rags or furs is very much a thing. So are beautiful fey associated with nature. Druids could easily run the gamut from one of these to the other, with an in universe division being a good way to handle it.

Deophaun
2014-04-10, 10:31 PM
One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.
The one ritual we have any historical knowledge of is the ritual of oak a mistletoe, which involved a golden sickle. So the prohibition against metal is nonsense.

As is the whole hippy tree hugging nature warrior conception.

And no, it's just a coincidence that all references to nature worship were burned out of the druid entry in my 3.5 PHB. A complete accident, really.

Leviting
2014-04-10, 11:04 PM
Burned? as in with what, a candle?

Mastikator
2014-04-10, 11:30 PM
Dude, chimps groom each other, grooming is not the sole domain of humans. A druid may too. A druid would also take baths in lakes and use flowers (and other natural stuff) as perfume. Being natural doesn't mean you have to be disgusting.

imaloony
2014-04-10, 11:47 PM
Not all Druids are against man-made tools. In most (If not all, I haven't extensively played all) editions of D&D they're allowed to be proficient with plenty of man-made weapons such as daggers and scimitars.

Let's look at Eragon as a frame of reference. Now, Eragon doesn't have Druids, per say, but the Elves are pretty Druid-ish. They live pretty much on nature and magic alone, they're mostly vegetarians, and they love to sing to trees. Eragon's mentor, Oromis, insisted that Eragon shave his face daily and gave him a razor to do it with (Even though Eragon eventually ended up using magic to shave).

Of course, Eragon =/= D&D, but it shows that just because you like to live amongst nature doesn't mean you have to reject everything that comes from the civilized world.

Deophaun
2014-04-10, 11:49 PM
Burned? as in with what, a candle?
Hate. Pure, unadulterated, hate.

And a candle. Yes.

But mostly hate.

Rhynn
2014-04-11, 01:09 AM
Yes.


One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts

Arguing facts not in evidence, begging the question, plus obviously not true if you think about it at all.

That said, what sort of setting are you running if male druids don't have enormously long beards?! :smalleek:

SiuiS
2014-04-11, 01:35 AM
One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

This does not describe Druids at all.
Druids were scientists, politicians, power brokers and set social policy enough that they would ascribe to it, not shun it.

Failing that much historicity, Druids re a mystery cult that throws on some nature trappings but are basically shapeshifting clerics. They use high technology weapons, benefit from an understanding of advanced theological sciences, and are deeply in time with elemental and faerie powers none of this has anything at all to do with shunning civilization or being a 'naturalist'.

The real question at this point is; why is ANYONE in a paeudomedieval setting shaving their legs? It's a waste of time, sharp knife, good water, and in a world where people don't frequently bathe it's stupid. Why risk a life threatening infection in order to appeal to modern sexual sensibilities?

Xuc Xac
2014-04-11, 02:38 AM
For the rest of human history, the only hair the a woman, even a fashion-conscious, "civilized" woman, would shave (or pluck!) would be around their eyebrows and, if they were unlucky, on their lips and chin.

Ancient Egyptians shaved everything from head to toe. The women wore wigs.

Knaight
2014-04-11, 03:15 AM
The real question at this point is; why is ANYONE in a paeudomedieval setting shaving their legs? It's a waste of time, sharp knife, good water, and in a world where people don't frequently bathe it's stupid. Why risk a life threatening infection in order to appeal to modern sexual sensibilities?

The frequency of bathing is massively understated in popular sources. For one thing, there were plenty of functional Roman baths all over Europe during the medieval period - not as many as the late Roman period, but still a fair few. They didn't suddenly get abandoned when the medieval period started. It's also worth noting that much of the criticism regarding European bathing practices came from Islamic civilizations, in which partial bathing five times a day was more or less standard, and even then it was along the lines of "these people in really cold conditions that aren't even all that humid bathe only once a week", which is a far cry from the per year measurements frequently given.

Cicciograna
2014-04-11, 03:51 AM
I seemed to remember that Druids were prohibited from using metal tools of whatsoever fashion. However, I went to check the part of their class features that deals with such a prohibition, and this is what I found:


Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape.

Druids are proficient with light and medium armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. (A druid may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. See the ironwood spell description) Druids are proficient with shields (except tower shields) but must use only wooden ones.

A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.

Emphasis mine.
No mention whatsoever of weapons or general tools, just metal armor and shields; so not only a razor would be kosher, but at this point even a greatsword would be, with the only caveat of the -4 for the non-proficiency.
Huh.

GolemsVoice
2014-04-11, 04:28 AM
Not to mention that one could probably devise some kind of spell for shaving, if one desires to do so but doesn't want to use metal razors.

Cicciograna
2014-04-11, 04:49 AM
Not to mention that one could probably devise some kind of spell for shaving, if one desires to do so but doesn't want to use metal razors.

Depilatory, 0th level spell from BoEF. Alas, it's only Bard, Sor/Wiz and "Imagist", which is a new base class from the book.

lytokk
2014-04-11, 07:02 AM
Wouldn't this be one of those many uses for prestidigitation?

Beleriphon
2014-04-11, 07:27 AM
As the tin says: is a druid "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to shave their legs?

You know there are cleanliness reason to shave or remove excess body hair. The big one is that parasites can't hide in it. Also among men being clean or closely shaven can actually make you warmer in the winter as long as you wear apporpriate clothing. The reason being is that you're not having your own exhaled moisture freezing onto your beard.

Ceiling_Squid
2014-04-11, 12:00 PM
The frequency of bathing is massively understated in popular sources. For one thing, there were plenty of functional Roman baths all over Europe during the medieval period - not as many as the late Roman period, but still a fair few. They didn't suddenly get abandoned when the medieval period started. It's also worth noting that much of the criticism regarding European bathing practices came from Islamic civilizations, in which partial bathing five times a day was more or less standard, and even then it was along the lines of "these people in really cold conditions that aren't even all that humid bathe only once a week", which is a far cry from the per year measurements frequently given.

Thanks for bringing this up. I was about to cry foul myself until I saw your post. This is one historical misrepresentation that irks me pretty badly. Monty Python interpretation aside, people in the middle ages din't go around wallowing in dung and refuse, refusing to bathe.

As for the OP, I'm going to echo the general sentiment in the thread. Why not make it so druids from different circles and orders have different practices? If DnD druids are basically nature clerics, they, like clerics, should have different practices depending on where they're from and what powers they serve. I don't think druids should be any more monolithic than other religious characters.

BananaPhone
2014-04-11, 12:48 PM
Why not make it so druids from different circles and orders have different practices?


Because I'm not some high lord of my groups gaming world that dictates Druid grooming policy :smalltongue:.

I'm just some mug transferring a discussion from RL to the interwebs.

Red Fel
2014-04-11, 12:54 PM
Even if I accepted the argument that Druids forsake all technology and civilization (which I don't, depending on the setting) I absolutely could not accept the argument that Druids must therefore forsake basic grooming.

Grooming is a natural process. It comes up all the time. The bear scratches his back against a tree. The monkey plucks bugs from a baby's fur. The bird preens her plumage. The dog dives into the water and then shakes himself dry all over my clean carpet.

I mean, just look at a cat. Seriously. Look at it. For hours. Just... sitting there. Licking that same spot on its leg. Over. And over. And over. The exact same spot. It's perfectly clean, and it just keeps licking. Just to taunt me. Over. And over...

Where was I? Oh, right. Grooming is natural and your Druid smells bad because he doesn't bathe.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-04-11, 12:57 PM
Do note that some people believe it is a druid's duty to shave the trees. And shave the whales. And shave pretty much all the bits of the ecosystem threatened by Orc industrialism.

:smalltongue:

(But really. Druid catchphrase: "SHAVE THE TREES!")

Perturbulent
2014-04-11, 01:02 PM
Am I the only wondering where the distinction between shaving and personal hygiene went?

There's nothing unhygienic about being unshaven. As it stands, most complex shaving is a relatively new practice (barring some intricate beard groomers).
The effect of shaving is purely aesthetic, beyond evading complication of things such as tripping over one's hair or beard and getting it caught in things. That however would be regarded as trimming more than shaving.

Ravens_cry
2014-04-11, 01:13 PM
Am I the only wondering where the distinction between shaving and personal hygiene went?

There's nothing unhygienic about being unshaven. As it stands, most complex shaving is a relatively new practice (barring some intricate beard groomers).
The effect of shaving is purely aesthetic, beyond evading complication of things such as tripping over one's hair or beard and getting it caught in things. That however would be regarded as trimming more than shaving.

Male figures appear without beards even in ancient cave paintings, so removing facial hair is hardly a new practice. It's not like you need metal for it An obsidian blade can make a fine razor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWSTE6WLB0Y).

Themrys
2014-04-11, 01:13 PM
As the tin says: is a druid "allowed" (for lack of a better word) to shave their legs?

I ask this because at my local gaming group this topic brought about a surprising division.

One camp argued that, as naturalists that forsake all but the most rudimentary of technology and civilised comforts, shaved legs would be absent. This is because of the lack of tools to perform such an act of grooming (metal knives + shaving cream etc), the refusal to do so, or a combination thereof.

The second camp argued that personal grooming would still be permitted, otherwise all male druids would have beards down to their ankles by the time they're 30, in addition to obscenely long, disheveled hair and creepy neckbeard-esque long fingernails.

So, what do others think?


A druid who shaves her or his legs would be somewhat odd.

Without metals, you would still have short fingernails - they tend to break when you work with your hands. People with very long fingernails usually get those from not doing any work AND not cutting them. Broken fingernails can hurt, so a druid may want to bite them to keep them so short they don't break, or maybe cut them with a stone knife, depending on whether they care what the nails look like.

Hair and beard can be kept short with stone knives or fire. Most people are not able to grow hair longer than themselves, anyway. I guess the same is true for beard hair.

Perturbulent
2014-04-11, 01:28 PM
Male figures appear without beards even in ancient cave paintings, so removing facial hair is hardly a new practice. It's not like you need metal for it An obsidian blade can make a fine razor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWSTE6WLB0Y).
Sure, some shaving happened, beard and all. Not arguing it couldn't. But beard shaving is a far cry from shaving legs and similar things which have only existed for the past 100 years in most societies.

Additionally, there also a number of naturally beardless folk. Not everyone can grow one.

That said, that video is pretty awesome.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 01:29 PM
A druid who shaves her or his legs would be somewhat odd.

Without metals, you would still have short fingernails - they tend to break when you work with your hands. People with very long fingernails usually get those from not doing any work AND not cutting them. Broken fingernails can hurt, so a druid may want to bite them to keep them so short they don't break, or maybe cut them with a stone knife, depending on whether they care what the nails look like.

Couldn't such a druid still wax his/her legs?

Also, non-metal blades ftw.

Perturbulent
2014-04-11, 01:32 PM
Couldn't such a druid still wax his/her legs?

Also, non-metal blades ftw.

The issue isn't if it's possible. As has been pointed out, metal tools and weapons are available. The issue appears to me to be, how likely is a druid to bother? Additionally, how many people in a pseudo-medieval world would bother at all?

imaloony
2014-04-11, 01:43 PM
The issue isn't if it's possible. As has been pointed out, metal tools and weapons are available. The issue appears to me to be, how likely is a druid to bother? Additionally, how many people in a pseudo-medieval world would bother at all?

I could see a Druid doing it just to avoid potentially getting some itchy bug living in his/her leg hair. Probably not super common, but I could see it.

But the overlying point here is that in no editions of Dungeons and Dragons are Druids forbidden from shaving or even using metal tools/weapons.

TheThan
2014-04-11, 01:44 PM
Druids have sort of a weird dichotomy; on one hand they’re allowed to use metal tools (dagger, scimitar, and sickle) but they’re not allowed to use metal armor and shields. Which is something I’ve always thought was strange. As it meant my earth based dwarf druid was difficult to do.
Anyway because they are clearly allowed to use some metal tools, I would say, yes a druid would be allowed to shave legs, cut hair, trim beards etc. Now there’s no reason why a druid couldn’t do that with stone tools (obsidian can get very sharp); I think there's even a link up above.

but i don't see anything in the PBP about not being able to have good personal grooming habits.

endoperez
2014-04-11, 02:00 PM
Of course a druid is allowed to do that.

I mean, I imagine people might look at him a bit weird if they saw the druid marching through the town with his bear legs shaved to the skin, but maybe they'd just take it as a weird thing that druids too. In fact, it might even be a badge of honor, of a kind, something people use to tell druids apart from mundanes.

Perturbulent
2014-04-11, 02:02 PM
Of course a druid is allowed to do that.

I mean, I imagine people might look at him a bit weird if they saw the druid marching through the town with his bear legs shaved to the skin, but maybe they'd just take it as a weird thing that druids too. In fact, it might even be a badge of honor, of a kind, something people use to tell druids apart from mundanes.

Bare bear legs?

BananaPhone
2014-04-11, 02:07 PM
I mean, I imagine people might look at him a bit weird if they saw the druid marching through the town with his bear legs

...?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/thumbnail_570x321/2013/02/andy_samberg_bear_legs_a_l.jpg

Perturbulent
2014-04-11, 02:09 PM
http://d2ws0xxnnorfdo.cloudfront.net/meme/3929.jpg

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 02:26 PM
...?

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/thumbnail_570x321/2013/02/andy_samberg_bear_legs_a_l.jpg

To be fair, if I saw that guy walking through town, I'd look at him weird. Come to think of it, he kind of resembles a satyr.

erikun
2014-04-11, 02:49 PM
I would second this - and also note that both of these have fantasy archetypes backing them up. The wild man with a beard down to their ankles, unkempt long hair, and rags or furs is very much a thing. So are beautiful fey associated with nature. Druids could easily run the gamut from one of these to the other, with an in universe division being a good way to handle it.
Actually, it would be a pretty interesting subversion for the "wild" people with the long uncut hair to be properly groomed, while the "civilized" people with short cut hair just allow it to be unkempt. :smalltongue:

Also, long hair tends to form into dreadlocks when not brushed out.

Mewtarthio
2014-04-11, 02:53 PM
I can't believe you people. Obsidian? Pumice? Custom magic spells? Pathetic. You've all been lulled into complacency by the comforts of your so-called civilization! You have forgotten the old ways, longing only for the stupefying embrace of technology! You ancestors fought for their lives every day in the wild, hunting deer by chasing them until they dropped from exhaustion. How could such feeble creatures be the scions of such noble beasts?

No, I tell you, a true druid does not shave with implements of glass or stone. A true druid embraces the painful struggle of nature! A true druid shaves only with a rough piece of bark! And that goes for every other bit of personal hygiene, too! Smelly gunk building up on your tongue? Scrape it off with some bark! Fingernails growing too long? Scrape 'em off with some bark! Just finished relieving yourself?...

Aedilred
2014-04-11, 02:59 PM
Sure, some shaving happened, beard and all. Not arguing it couldn't. But beard shaving is a far cry from shaving legs and similar things which have only existed for the past 100 years in most societies.
Given the existence of extremely influential historical societies with obsessive hair-removal cultures (specifically Egypt and Rome) I'm pretty sure that, like most things, shaving - of all body parts - has been in and out of fashion repeatedly. In its most modern incarnation it's only about a hundred years old but that doesn't mean it was the first time that had happened. Historical fashion and culture wasn't a monolithic edifice and will have varied from time to time and place to place. A lot of the prudishness and fretting about nudity that we attribute to the past and consider to have been swept away in the 20th century was in itself a relatively modern phenomenon (having been in and out of vogue at various points), along with the convention that women should at all times be covered to wrist and ankle, etc. The number of paintings of society ladies in the buff should in itself be enough to illustrate that one. So there's no particular reason that leg-shaving being a part of a given pseudomediaeval culture should necessarily be anachronistic, provided that the rest of society is shaped in such a way as to make it realistic and feasible (particularly, fairly frequent/regular bathing).

Knaight
2014-04-11, 03:12 PM
No, I tell you, a true druid does not shave with implements of glass or stone. A true druid embraces the painful struggle of nature! A true druid shaves only with a rough piece of bark! And that goes for every other bit of personal hygiene, too! Smelly gunk building up on your tongue? Scrape it off with some bark! Fingernails growing too long? Scrape 'em off with some bark! Just finished relieving yourself?...

Bark is for weaklings. Nature is full of beautiful creatures with beautiful acids, and these will remove your hair, tongue gunk, fingernails, and clingy dung just fine.

Mono Vertigo
2014-04-11, 03:20 PM
No, I tell you, a true druid does not shave with implements of glass or stone. A true druid embraces the painful struggle of nature! A true druid shaves only with a rough piece of bark! And that goes for every other bit of personal hygiene, too! Smelly gunk building up on your tongue? Scrape it off with some bark! Fingernails growing too long? Scrape 'em off with some bark! Just finished relieving yourself?...

According to a joke I know, the proper way to do the last one is with a rabbit, not bark.
I wish I could tell you that's the worst joke that I know.

CarpeGuitarrem
2014-04-11, 04:32 PM
Bark is for weaklings. Nature is full of beautiful creatures with beautiful acids, and these will remove your hair, tongue gunk, fingernails, and clingy dung just fine.
Shave with a gelatinous cube!

The Oni
2014-04-11, 05:32 PM
I mean, it definitely depends on the character. If this is a druid who regularly interacts with people, then he or she is likely to tidy themselves up a bit. If we're talking about a nature hermit who spends years at a time in the solitude of the forest, why bother? Bears don't care what your hair looks like.

They definitely *can* shave their legs, it's just they're likely to be the sort of people who wouldn't care to.

TheCountAlucard
2014-04-11, 05:57 PM
I mentally parsed that as "Bears... can shave their legs if they want to." Thanks, Smeagle.

Anyway, after trying to eat chili whilst bearing a cumbersome moustache, I can say with some confidence that even if a druid intends to live as a hermit, some grooming is recommended.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 06:19 PM
I mentally parsed that as "Bears... can shave their legs if they want to." Thanks, Smeagle.


Shaved bears are creepy as hell.

http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1358874917196177846.jpg

The Oni
2014-04-11, 07:17 PM
...Actually, that bear looks pretty badass. Like a bulkier wolf, almost. Easy to forget they're cousins with all that cuddly fur.

Aedilred
2014-04-11, 07:33 PM
...Actually, that bear looks pretty badass. Like a bulkier wolf, almost. Easy to forget they're cousins with all that cuddly fur.
They're pretty distant cousins, all the same; less closely-related than bears and seals. (And, to be honest, if you give me the choice between running into a bear or a wolf, I'll take the wolf ten times out of ten, cuddly fur or no cuddly fur.)

What I always find weird about bears - and that picture accentuates it - is the mismatch between front and back legs. They look almost like primates walking on all fours. In fact there's something distinctly lycanthropic about that picture. Hyenas sometimes give off the same impression, although not so much as bears.

Red Fel
2014-04-11, 08:02 PM
Shaved bears are creepy as hell.

http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1358874917196177846.jpg

That's no bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm)...

Coidzor
2014-04-11, 10:03 PM
The real question at this point is; why is ANYONE in a paeudomedieval setting shaving their legs? It's a waste of time, sharp knife, good water, and in a world where people don't frequently bathe it's stupid. Why risk a life threatening infection in order to appeal to modern sexual sensibilities?

You think porny slave girls in dungeons and harems are just naturally that way when they're not shapeshifters or glamoured? :smalltongue:

When you're a werewolf lady and you need to ambush a bunch of heroes, you take the time to prepare your trap carefully, even if that means spending 16 hours with tweezers for 15 minutes of lulling them into a false sense of security before going furry.

BananaPhone
2014-04-12, 12:12 AM
What about cleaning their teeth?

People used baking soda to do that back in the time of muskets and stuff.

Sith_Happens
2014-04-12, 12:44 AM
On the other hand, shaving one's legs is generally out of place in a quasi-medieval era anyways. Women shaving under their arms and their legs only became a "thing" in Western Europe/the United States after the first World War, when sleeveless dresses over bare arms became fashionable. For the rest of human history, the only hair the a woman, even a fashion-conscious, "civilized" woman, would shave (or pluck!) would be around their eyebrows and, if they were unlucky, on their lips and chin.

Considering that appropriate period dress is at least slightly less common in fantasy RPG artwork than implausibly-revealing dress, I'm not sure this is a very relevant line of argument.:smalltongue:


The number of paintings of society ladies in the buff should in itself be enough to illustrate that one.

Incidentally, those same paintings depict notably little body hair on average.


Shave with a gelatinous cube!

Finally, a use for Energy Resistance 5!:smalltongue:

OracleofWuffing
2014-04-12, 01:03 AM
What about cleaning their teeth?

People used baking soda to do that back in the time of muskets and stuff.
Eh heh. You don't wanna know what was in ancient Rome's teeth whitening agent. And laundry detergent.

Sith_Happens
2014-04-12, 01:21 AM
Eh heh. You don't wanna know what was in ancient Rome's teeth whitening agent. And laundry detergent.

Ten bucks says sodium hydroxide. I know for a fact that it's a historical cleaning agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lye), at least.

SiuiS
2014-04-12, 01:31 AM
The frequency of bathing is massively understated in popular sources. For one thing, there were plenty of functional Roman baths all over Europe during the medieval period - not as many as the late Roman period, but still a fair few. They didn't suddenly get abandoned when the medieval period started. It's also worth noting that much of the criticism regarding European bathing practices came from Islamic civilizations, in which partial bathing five times a day was more or less standard, and even then it was along the lines of "these people in really cold conditions that aren't even all that humid bathe only once a week", which is a far cry from the per year measurements frequently given.

And what does this have to do with the basic sanitation on your hands to avoid sepsis from shaving your legs? "Bathe once a week in cold nonhumid weather" is still a far cry from "washes hands to remove particulates and understands basic pathogen transmission". The issue of how fast leg hair grows compared to how messy it is in relation to frequency of bathing is the point, not some (unstated by any save you, mind) notion that dirty Europeans bathed yearly.

Spend a month keeping your legs baby-smooth, hon, then we'll talk about the hassle. :smallwink:


I seemed to remember that Druids were prohibited from using metal tools of whatsoever fashion. However, I went to check the part of their class features that deals with such a prohibition, and this is what I found:



Emphasis mine.
No mention whatsoever of weapons or general tools, just metal armor and shields; so not only a razor would be kosher, but at this point even a greatsword would be, with the only caveat of the -4 for the non-proficiency.
Huh.

This is the Roleplaying general forum, not the D&D 3.X forum. The SRD does not apply except as one example amongst many.


Wouldn't this be one of those many uses for prestidigitation?


A druid who shaves her or his legs would be somewhat odd.

Yeah, without a prevalence of mesh hose I don't see the point.


Without metals, you would still have short fingernails - they tend to break when you work with your hands. People with very long fingernails usually get those from not doing any work AND not cutting them. Broken fingernails can hurt, so a druid may want to bite them to keep them so short they don't break, or maybe cut them with a stone knife, depending on whether they care what the nails look like.

Hair and beard can be kept short with stone knives or fire. Most people are not able to grow hair longer than themselves, anyway. I guess the same is true for beard hair.

At up. Concoidal knives are fantastic – sharper than most steel knives for the first while.


I can't believe you people. Obsidian? Pumice? Custom magic spells? Pathetic. You've all been lulled into complacency by the comforts of your so-called civilization! You have forgotten the old ways, longing only for the stupefying embrace of technology! You ancestors fought for their lives every day in the wild, hunting deer by chasing them until they dropped from exhaustion. How could such feeble creatures be the scions of such noble beasts?

No, I tell you, a true druid does not shave with implements of glass or stone. A true druid embraces the painful struggle of nature! A true druid shaves only with a rough piece of bark! And that goes for every other bit of personal hygiene, too! Smelly gunk building up on your tongue? Scrape it off with some bark! Fingernails growing too long? Scrape 'em off with some bark! Just finished relieving yourself?...

Pfff another temperate locale elitist who thinks trees = nature.

When you're throwing your clothes off and rolling in the snow to get dry, or you're taking a sand bath, or you're foraging in the rocky heat he's for herbs, them we'll talk. But you've got these fantastic water reserves literally growing out of the grown around you, providing you with constant steady food, water, shelter, materials, and homes for useful critters? Please. Forest Druids aren't hard enough to talk about being a real woman.

Now, you wanna go talk hard? Istanna trimmed her nails by karate chopping sandstorms. That's a hard Druid!

Coidzor
2014-04-12, 01:32 AM
Ten bucks says sodium hydroxide. I know for a fact that it's a historical cleaning agent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lye), at least.

Ammonia. Derived from the same source that their descendants would sometimes use to get the saltpeter needed for gunpowder.

Hazuki
2014-04-12, 01:46 AM
I mean, it definitely depends on the character. If this is a druid who regularly interacts with people, then he or she is likely to tidy themselves up a bit. If we're talking about a nature hermit who spends years at a time in the solitude of the forest, why bother? Bears don't care what your hair looks like.Because, despite what everybody in this thread seems to think, people can do things to make themselves look nice because they want to. Instead of to impress others.

SiuiS
2014-04-12, 05:25 AM
Looking good for yourself? That's just crazy talk. Someone hasn't been scraping their tongue gunk with the right bark! It's crawled up to the ears, then inward!


But yes. The reasons to remove profuse body hair is "stuff gets caught in it" and "it chafes and or is hot". I just don't see leg hair getting to that point until after menopause, and even then a Druid can just shift to whatever form they want (system less, even!). This includes "myself but clean-shaven".

wumpus
2014-04-12, 01:40 PM
For a sample size of one known (assumed to be) druid, we know his "surviving hair on the head is short and the bead and moustache were well trimmed." Unless he was executed as a heretic (evidence points against that), there is no reason to assume a prohibition on shaving.

https://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/articles/l/what_did_lindow_man_look_like.aspx

TheCountAlucard
2014-04-12, 01:56 PM
D&D druids have about as much in common with historical druids as modern-day Goths have with the guys who sacked Rome.

Beowulf DW
2014-04-12, 02:31 PM
Pretty sure people were using flint and obsidian to shave before metallurgy. The main issue is the culture, which can probably go either way, and whether it's useful as a survival tactic, which again could probably go either way.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-12, 02:50 PM
useful as a survival tactic, which again could probably go either way.

D&D Druids cast magic spells, automatically get a big scary animal bodyguard, and can turn into animals. Hairy legs aren't going to make the difference between life and death.

Beowulf DW
2014-04-12, 05:27 PM
D&D Druids cast magic spells, automatically get a big scary animal bodyguard, and can turn into animals. Hairy legs aren't going to make the difference between life and death.

In reference to things like lice and ticks, I mean. More relevant to low-level druids, I guess.

TheThan
2014-04-12, 05:45 PM
In reference to things like lice and ticks, I mean. More relevant to low-level druids, I guess.

Repel vermin is a fourth level spell. so possibly

Slipperychicken
2014-04-12, 06:33 PM
Repel vermin is a fourth level spell. so possibly

Remove Disease is only level 3.


Remove disease cures all diseases that the subject is suffering from. The spell also kills parasites, including green slime and others. Certain special diseases may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or higher.

Note: Since the spell’s duration is instantaneous, it does not prevent reinfection after a new exposure to the same disease at a later date.

Just to Browse
2014-04-12, 10:26 PM
OT: Green slime is a parasite?

Slipperychicken
2014-04-12, 10:42 PM
OT: Green slime is a parasite?

Apparently (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#slimesMoldsAndFungi) it's really sticky, quickly attaching to people to consume their organic matter.

It is nice of WotC to clarify that green slime counted as a parasite for that purpose: It probably saved us from a bi-annual, 20-page thread arguing over whether it counts or not. I mean, there have been arguments over whether fetuses count as parasites for the purpose of Remove Disease.

BananaPhone
2014-04-12, 11:49 PM
I mean, there have been arguments over whether fetuses count as parasites for the purpose of Remove Disease.

Only if it ain't yours! :smallwink:



Er, ahem...excuse my ghoulish sense of humour.

Ravens_cry
2014-04-13, 01:26 AM
It probably saved us from a bi-annual, 20-page thread arguing over whether it counts or not. I mean, there have been arguments over whether fetuses count as parasites for the purpose of Remove Disease.
And I have had a rollicking good time talking about what happens to a foetus to someone who magically switches sex from female to male.
My answer?
Ectopic pregnancy.

Themrys
2014-04-13, 10:12 AM
Because, despite what everybody in this thread seems to think, people can do things to make themselves look nice because they want to. Instead of to impress others.

Not all people agree that a lack of body hair looks good, though. And especially druids who live far away from civilisation are likely to be extremely individualistic in their tastes.

It's perfectly possible some druids use plant hormones to increase the hair growth on their legs in order to get a nice, shiny fur.

Coidzor
2014-04-13, 08:57 PM
Not all people agree that a lack of body hair looks good, though. And especially druids who live far away from civilisation are likely to be extremely individualistic in their tastes.

It's perfectly possible some druids use plant hormones to increase the hair growth on their legs in order to get a nice, shiny fur.

Which automatically translates to "no one likes this and no druid would ever do it for any reason whatsover," somehow. :smallamused:


And I have had a rollicking good time talking about what happens to a foetus to someone who magically switches sex from female to male.
My answer?
Ectopic pregnancy.

....That... Was fun? :smallconfused:

Ravens_cry
2014-04-13, 09:57 PM
....That... Was fun? :smallconfused:
Discussing it? Yes.:smallsmile:

GungHo
2014-04-14, 12:34 PM
Shaved bears are creepy as hell.

http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1358874917196177846.jpg

I'd be unhappy if someone decided to shave me entirely except for a Wolverine hairdo, too.

hymer
2014-04-14, 02:40 PM
Just to chime in with my opinion: I don't think druids would have any clear custom on shaving. I don't think they, as a group, would have any sort of strong opinion on that. But it could depend on the campaign world, of course. In a campaign world where naturally beardless elves were seen as the pinnacle of naturality, druids might encourage shaving lots of hair all the time, e.g.
Basically, I'd imagine that the average druid would not take the hassle to shave anywhere, unless they had a specific reason; whether personal, practical, professional or cultural.

AMFV
2014-04-14, 03:16 PM
Barring specific orders of Druids or specific regulations. Yes. I have yet to see a published book Druidic Order (in all the game systems I have read, and some of them are not D&D) with explicit prohibitions against shaving, which is not to say that they might not exist.

The question is why druids? Shaving is a grooming habit (while not necessary for hygiene), and grooming habits are natural. The reason why many folks who are politically inclined in ways that might be similar to druids in the real world chose not to shave was not because of nature, but rather of a specific rejection of a particular ideal of femininity and beauty.

Why wouldn't you ask about Paladins shaving? I mean they are explicitly likely to have prohibitions against unnecessary personal beautification (after all many orders in the real, which I can't mention have exactly those prohibitions), because shaving is not a necessity beyond a certain point and may be time consuming.

As to whether shaving would be considered normal or unusual, that would depend on the druids culture. To use a Forgotten Realms example (and that is setting specific but I feel it communicates the point well), in Mulhorand it is likely that shaving is the norm, so a druid would not consider not shaving to be possibly even an option, and might shave for a number of reasons (including that hair in the desert can be extremely uncomfortable), also since Mulhorand is roughly Egyptian in culture it stands that they may have similar ideals regarding beauty and personal aesthetics, whereas in the Sword Coast shaving might not be a normal state, and therefore who shaved would be considered unusual. It's really more a more a matter of culture than it is one of naturalism.

Wardog
2014-04-14, 03:41 PM
Sure, some shaving happened, beard and all. Not arguing it couldn't. But beard shaving is a far cry from shaving legs and similar things which have only existed for the past 100 years in most societies.

I'm sure I once heard that Roman legionaries shaved their legs, although a quick Google search didn't turn up any evidence. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leg_shaving)Wikipedia article indicates that some Roman men did it, but it was rather frowned upon.

AMFV
2014-04-14, 03:50 PM
I'm sure I once heard that Roman legionaries shaved their legs, although a quick Google search didn't turn up any evidence. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leg_shaving)Wikipedia article indicates that some Roman men did it, but it was rather frowned upon.

Egyptians certainly shaved their legs. I suspect that in hot climates, particularly hot arid climates where chafing would be worse than bugs it would be preferable.

Ravens_cry
2014-04-14, 05:04 PM
I'd be unhappy if someone decided to shave me entirely except for a Wolverine hairdo, too.

Technically, it's not shaved, but, rather, the poor sow has a skin condition that made her lose most of her hair. Still, the result is quite freaky.

veti
2014-04-14, 05:43 PM
The real question at this point is; why is ANYONE in a paeudomedieval setting shaving their legs? It's a waste of time, sharp knife, good water, and in a world where people don't frequently bathe it's stupid. Why risk a life threatening infection in order to appeal to modern sexual sensibilities?

This. In my campaigns, the only people who shave body hair at all are (a) effete aristocrats who have more time than they know what to do with, (b) (some) sex workers who cater to that particular fetish, and (c) (some) idiots, who may or may not also fall under one or both of the above categories.

Facial hair (for men) is more of an issue, both because it can easily reach a state where it's a hazard to hygiene and daily activities, and because it's obvious, which makes it a prominent fashion feature. But (with the possible exception of hobbits' feet), nowhere else on the body does hair grow long and thick enough to be a serious problem. I can't think of any reason why anyone, of either sex, would normally bother.

Aedilred
2014-04-14, 07:23 PM
I'm sure I once heard that Roman legionaries shaved their legs, although a quick Google search didn't turn up any evidence. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leg_shaving)Wikipedia article indicates that some Roman men did it, but it was rather frowned upon.
I am pretty sure that there were periods in Roman history when extensive hair removal was the norm, although cursory wiki research isn't turning anything useful up and I can't be bothered to look further right now - but the oiling and scraping (which would remove hair) was a pretty essential part of the bathing experience. Whether that would apply to legionaries too, I don't know. I imagine it'd be more difficult while on the move but if billeted in a town with baths they might take the chance to get the full treatment.

Note that the disapproval expressed in that article there is from Seneca, who was rather old-fashioned in his views (in fact, iirc he had a - highly-unfashionable - beard). Also that it was considered a sign of effeminacy, which suggests that it was commonplace among women, and rather less so among men.

nowhere else on the body does hair grow long and thick enough to be a serious problem.
Speak for yourself... I could probably get a half-decent head-hair transplant from my arms or legs, if the colour wasn't different.

BananaPhone
2014-04-15, 02:04 AM
Facial hair (for men) is more of an issue, both because it can easily reach a state where it's a hazard to hygiene and daily activities, and because it's obvious, which makes it a prominent fashion feature. But (with the possible exception of hobbits' feet), nowhere else on the body does hair grow long and thick enough to be a serious problem. I can't think of any reason why anyone, of either sex, would normally bother.

Aesthetics?

People will shave their arms, chest and legs because they like the look better. I cut my hair in a certain way because I prefer it over letting it growing long and feral.

Xuc Xac
2014-04-15, 03:14 AM
Basically, I'd imagine that the average druid would not take the hassle to shave anywhere, unless they had a specific reason; whether personal, practical, professional or cultural.

That doesn't just apply to druids shaving. That's why anybody does anything.

hymer
2014-04-15, 08:42 AM
That doesn't just apply to druids shaving. That's why anybody does anything.

Well, there's also instinctual reasons to do things, but that's nitpicking. I was trying to point out that shaving requires action and therefore is the choice you can expect some sort of explanation for. Not shaving requires no explanation.

Coidzor
2014-04-15, 10:10 AM
Well, there's also instinctual reasons to do things, but that's nitpicking. I was trying to point out that shaving requires action and therefore is the choice you can expect some sort of explanation for. Not shaving requires no explanation.

Past a certain tech level(I believe it's somewhere around playing with stone knives and animal skins) it really does. Because then you have the influence of culture to account for.

hymer
2014-04-15, 10:25 AM
Past a certain tech level(I believe it's somewhere around playing with stone knives and animal skins) it really does. Because then you have the influence of culture to account for.

I mentioned cultural reasons. Cultural reasons are still reasons, explanations, excuses. The expenditure of time, care and resources in doing something (like shaving) means you do have some sort of motive, even if its down to instinct (which shaving of course isn't). Deciding not to shave means you may have a reason. But if you have no reason one way or the other, you don't shave.
Which makes not shaving the default.

Coidzor
2014-04-16, 02:39 AM
I mentioned cultural reasons. Cultural reasons are still reasons, explanations, excuses. The expenditure of time, care and resources in doing something (like shaving) means you do have some sort of motive, even if its down to instinct (which shaving of course isn't). Deciding not to shave means you may have a reason. But if you have no reason one way or the other, you don't shave.
Which makes not shaving the default.

Both require explanation, if you're going to make a thing out of it rather than having it be a glossed over point of immateria.

hymer
2014-04-16, 06:03 AM
Both require explanation, if you're going to make a thing out of it rather than having it be a glossed over point of immateria.

I'm not sure I follow. Both what?

FabulousFizban
2014-04-16, 05:43 PM
not with a metal razor.
A druid would probably wax.

The Oni
2014-04-16, 06:04 PM
If they can use metal weapons to kill, they can use metal razors to shave. But I do like the idea of some kind of waxing. Made from rare herbs, no doubt.

SiuiS
2014-04-18, 10:25 AM
not with a metal razor.
A druid would probably wax.

Nah, it's fine. It just has to be a curved finessable razor. That's the actual 2e justification for scimitars! It has to be culturally appropriate*. In fact, the Druidic language doesn't even have a word for 'sword' in general. It's scimitar and everyone just sort of guesses from context. I also think that it's implied that deserts are dry forests with few trees, plains are normal forests with few trees, and the seabed is a forest with huge amounts of constant Rain and thin, flowing trees. Because nature means forest, dontchaknow.


*i have no idea how this makes sense. Just roll with it; the writers did!

Urpriest
2014-04-19, 10:02 PM
The real question is, can a Fist of the Forest shave? And if not, what is the one in the picture doing?

Zombimode
2014-04-20, 02:18 AM
The real question is, can a Fist of the Forest shave? And if not, what is the one in the picture doing?

Don't you see it? Shortly before this picture was taken, she was being abducted by Make-Over Fairies. Thats also the reason why her hair looks so great and the source of her mascara.

JustSomeGuy
2014-04-20, 10:16 AM
Now, you wanna go talk hard? Istanna trimmed her nails by karate chopping sandstorms. That's a hard Druid!

No doubt i'll regret asking, but how do druids deal with a lack of TP?

Rhynn
2014-04-20, 10:23 AM
No doubt i'll regret asking, but how do druids deal with a lack of TP?

You know how people used to carry cloth handkerchiefs and wash them after use?

JustSomeGuy
2014-04-20, 12:55 PM
I don't believe you - needs more tree bark and sand I think?

Leviting
2014-04-20, 01:42 PM
No doubt i'll regret asking, but how do druids deal with a lack of TP?

Hopefully tree leafs or something. Just not poison oak :smalleek:

SiuiS
2014-04-20, 01:49 PM
No doubt i'll regret asking, but how do druids deal with a lack of TP?

Bear form and rough tongue.
Alternately, pick up a rabbit. I hear they're soft.

nyjastul69
2014-04-20, 01:54 PM
Alternately, pick up a rabbit. I hear they're soft.

Good solution. What's the worst it can do, nibble your bum?

hymer
2014-04-20, 03:03 PM
I think the traditional solution for French druids is a well-downed goose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper#cite_ref-3) (search the word 'goose' on the page for explanation).

Xuc Xac
2014-04-20, 10:25 PM
No doubt i'll regret asking, but how do druids deal with a lack of TP?

The same way everybody else does.

OracleofWuffing
2014-04-20, 11:16 PM
:smallconfused: But Prestidigitation isn't on the Druid spell list. :smalltongue:

Sith_Happens
2014-04-21, 12:15 AM
Hopefully tree leafs or something. Just not poison oak :smalleek:

Two words: Venom Immunity.

squiggit
2014-04-21, 12:31 AM
It honestly depends on the kind of druid.

Though I disagree with this notion that the druid can't use any of those tools described. The druid is a protector of nature, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the druid is an enemy of technology. You certainly can play a druid who despises the trappings of modern civilization and shuns them entirely, but it's not necessary and you can just as validly play a druid who's perfectly fine with forged metal tools, manufactured structures and the like.

Zombimode
2014-04-21, 04:07 AM
It honestly depends on the kind of druid.

Though I disagree with this notion that the druid can't use any of those tools described. The druid is a protector of nature, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the druid is an enemy of technology.

Pretty much. Druids still use manufactured weapons and armor, backpacks, potions, master work tools, rings, amuletts, belts...
All those Circlets of Wisdom and Amulets of Health don't grow on trees.

AMFV
2014-04-21, 04:58 PM
It honestly depends on the kind of druid.

Though I disagree with this notion that the druid can't use any of those tools described. The druid is a protector of nature, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the druid is an enemy of technology. You certainly can play a druid who despises the trappings of modern civilization and shuns them entirely, but it's not necessary and you can just as validly play a druid who's perfectly fine with forged metal tools, manufactured structures and the like.

Yes, this is why I asked about Paladins, it makes much more sense for a Paladin to have a prohibition against unnecessary beautification than for a druid to.