Ways to remove a precise amount of RHD?

[Gavinfoxx]

What ways are there to precisely remove an exact amount of unwanted Racial Hit Dice from a creature, in game? Is there a way to remove 1 RHD at a time?

By the way, I need this for a handbook, not a particular game.

Thanks!

[VoxRationis]

Chained wights. Let them get close enough to strike you precisely as many times as you need.
The next day, fail your Fortitude save(s).
Bing, bang, boom; you've got all the monster qualities and a low ECL.

[TiaC]

What ways are there to precisely remove an exact amount of unwanted Racial Hit Dice from a creature, in game? Is there a way to remove 1 RHD at a time?

Thanks!

Level drain, but it's cheesy.

[VoxRationis]

I know. I felt bad the moment I suggested it.
Also, you can never get a restoration spell or effect if you do that, or it's back up to full ECL for you.

[Gavinfoxx]

Anything that isn't undone by the Restoration line?

[Azoth]

Another option that doesn't require chaining up undead is to use Death Devotion and just beat the levels off of yourself while voluntarily failing the saves. Still gets screwed over by Greater Restoration and to a lesser degree Restoration, but on a pluss side no enslaved undead.

[NoACWarrior]

Anything that isn't undone by the Restoration line?

Permanent level loss will do it - enervation and don't save the next day.

Or, did you start with a ton of gold? If so do the raise dead approach instead.

[Mnemnosyne]

Restoration doesn't help after you fail the saving throw for a negative level, 24 hours after acquiring it. At that point, the level loss is permanent. There is, as far as I can remember, no explicit way of restoring that level at that point, although wish can arguably do it. So you certainly can get restoration later, as long as it's not during the period when you have the negative level.

[TuggyNE]

Restoration doesn't help after you fail the saving throw for a negative level, 24 hours after acquiring it. At that point, the level loss is permanent. There is, as far as I can remember, no explicit way of restoring that level at that point, although wish can arguably do it. So you certainly can get restoration later, as long as it's not during the period when you have the negative level.

Um, that's not really how the spell works.
The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level

The drained levels are restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is no more than one week per caster level.

So, to prevent restoration from working, wait a few weeks. Greater restoration, on the other hand, requires you to wait a good few months. Actually, most of a year.

[Mnemnosyne]

Huh, you're right, my mistake; I looked up the wrong section and failed to check the spell itself.

Still, it's quite effective. Waiting a year isn't a big deal, after all. And you wouldn't be high level when doing this in the first place, since you basically want to wind up with 1 RHD at the end of the process, so you can then trade that RHD for a class level. A character starting at 1st level is probably unlikely to get a restoration within the next 20-35 weeks or so. A full year puts it out of reach of any but the most extensive CL-boosting shenanigans.

[TuggyNE]

Huh, you're right, my mistake; I looked up the wrong section and failed to check the spell itself.

You're certainly not the only one to make that mistake, either. Odd, but there it is.

[Snowbluff]

A casting of Enervation. A maximized extended one.

[Darrin]

Necropolitan can get rid of one racial HD. But it's not really something you can repeat. Spellscale conversion will get rid of all RHD and LA, but I'm fuzzy on whether there's anything you get to keep from your previous race... I suspect not.

How many RHD are you trying to get rid of?

[Cog]

How many RHD are you trying to get rid of?

And on that note, what are you trying to remove them from? RHD are, with LA, part of what balances monstrous races. Often the implementation is pretty bad, sure, but it's still there for a reason, so this is somewhat of a metagame concern. Given that, a metagame approach might be best - consider just talking to your DM about an HD adjustment or HD 'retraining'?

[Inevitability]

Petitioner cuts all RHD down to 2. It also causes you to lose most of your abilities though.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm trying to update my handbook here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9NJIs751Af3i0IEIJwCkIp9H9YFiZYZ7u-wmYVaheI/edit

For some options with the Awaken trick.

Basically, changing a commoner 1/2rhd to be a commoner 1, so he can then be retrained into a factotum 1.

[Segev]

Die and be subjected to Raise Dead, I think. You come back a level lower than you died.

[Urpriest]

In terms of Restoration insurance, some argue that you can choose what your new level is when you "level back up" with Restoration, so it doesn't have to be the old RHD. But that's a cheesy tactic on top of a cheesy tactic.

[OldTrees1]

Warning: Either use a monster without a monster class or ask you DM for permission to use level loss cheese. Otherwise you will end up losing a level of your monster class rather than a RHD.


Spellscale conversion will get rid of all RHD and LA, but I'm fuzzy on whether there's anything you get to keep from your previous race... I suspect not.

Hellbred only keep languages
Spellscales only keep favored classes and languages
Dragonborn only keep type, subtype, RHD, abilitiy scores, size, speed, languages and favored classes

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Racial HD are not optional. An adult of a given race has that many HD, if you somehow lose them then you must spend your next levels regaining them before you can gain any more class levels.

[OldTrees1]

Racial HD are not optional. An adult of a given race has that many HD, if you somehow lose them then you must spend your next levels regaining them before you can gain any more class levels.

Ooh. Source?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ooh. Source?

You do not get to pick which levels get removed by level drain, it's always the most recently gained level. Racial HD are always gained prior to any class levels, so in order to level drain any racial HD you must first drain away all of your class levels. This is clarified in the official FAQ. Even if you don't consider that RAW, there is no RAW indicating otherwise.

Restoration and similar restore the same class levels that were removed, so you'll just get those same racial HD back. You cannot use level drain and restoration to rebuild your character, which is clarified in the official FAQ. Even if you don't consider that RAW, there is no RAW indicating otherwise.

Every playable monster race with racial HD explicitly states that it begins play with that many racial HD, so you cannot bring a new character into a game who's already been drained of their racial HD. That means you would need to get all of your levels drained away during play, then be adventuring as a significantly lower level character than the rest of the party. You cannot be drained to zero HD because then the character would die and become a wight, and if you weren't originally a 1 HD monster you don't get to replace that with your first class level, so you'll always be stuck with one racial HD regardless.

Edit: Furthermore, it's well within a DM's rights to consider racial abilities to be the 'class features' of your racial HD, and reduce your racial abilities depending on how many were lost until you regain them. For example, looking at the Savage Progression for Centaur in Savage Species, losing the last three racial HD would cause you to lose everything from the 'special' column for the 6th, 4th, and 2nd racial class levels (the last three which grant a hit die). That would give you Str -4, Dex -2 Wis -2, reduce you to medium size, and you would no longer have any hoof attacks. You would have to regain those racial HD to regain those racial traits.

[SinsI]

Can you use Necropolitan ritual to remove 1 HD? Or Raise Dead?

[OldTrees1]

Every playable monster race with racial HD explicitly states that it begins play with that many racial HD, so you cannot bring a new character into a game who's already been drained of their racial HD. That means you would need to get all of your levels drained away during play, then be adventuring as a significantly lower level character than the rest of the party. You cannot be drained to zero HD because then the character would die and become a wight, and if you weren't originally a 1 HD monster you don't get to replace that with your first class level, so you'll always be stuck with one racial HD regardless.

Edit: Furthermore, it's well within a DM's rights to consider racial abilities to be the 'class features' of your racial HD, and reduce your racial abilities depending on how many were lost until you regain them. For example, looking at the Savage Progression for Centaur in Savage Species, losing the last three racial HD would cause you to lose everything from the 'special' column for the 6th, 4th, and 2nd racial class levels (the last three which grant a hit die). That would give you Str -4, Dex -2 Wis -2, reduce you to medium size, and you would no longer have any hoof attacks. You would have to regain those racial HD to regain those racial traits.

Oh. I though you were saying that if RHD are lost, the character needs to level up in RHD before taking class levels.

Your edit is similar to the warning I stated above.

[Cloud]

I think any of the 'tricks' to remove RHD have been mentioned, and Biffoniacus_Furiou explains why in general you can't remove them easily, so I think the real solution here is...just talk to the DM and work out a fair LA that includes no RHD. Most races are way overpriced in terms of LA anyway.

[Gavinfoxx]

Again, this is for a handbook!

[Anlashok]

there is no RAW indicating otherwise.
That's not how RAW works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's not how RAW works.

RAW doesn't say you can use level drain to trade out one level for a different one, so you can't. There are specific mechanics which do allow you to do that (PH2 chapter 8), but that doesn't allow you to switch out racial HD for class levels.

[squiggit]

so you'll always be stuck with one racial HD regardless.

Does this apply to RHD acquired after play has already begun/after you've already gained class levels (like lycanthropy)?

[Virdish]

RAW doesn't say you can use level drain to trade out one level for a different one, so you can't. There are specific mechanics which do allow you to do that (PH2 chapter 8), but that doesn't allow you to switch out racial HD for class levels.

I think it has been proven too many times that your logic is false. RAW does not say that if you get permanent level loss that you have to replace it with the original class lost. You are talking RAI. RAW and RAI are not on speaking terms.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think it has been proven too many times that your logic is false. RAW does not say that if you get permanent level loss that you have to replace it with the original class lost. You are talking RAI. RAW and RAI are not on speaking terms.

It's not about RAW vs RAI, it's about what the rules say you're allowed to do, or the fact that the rules don't say that you're allowed to switch out a level in one class/HD for a different one. It's no different than just deciding to switch your Sorcerer levels over to Wizard levels just because you want to, without any game mechanics permitting it, justifying it because the RAW fails to mention that you can't do it. The rules don't need to specifically list everything you're not allowed to do, and this is one of them.

[Virdish]

It's not about RAW vs RAI, it's about what the rules say you're allowed to do, or the fact that the rules don't say that you're allowed to switch out a level in one class/HD for a different one. It's no different than just deciding to switch your Sorcerer levels over to Wizard levels just because you want to, without any game mechanics permitting it, justifying it because the RAW fails to mention that you can't do it. The rules don't need to specifically list everything you're not allowed to do, and this is one of them.



Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.

The problem here being that there is no text on what happens when the levels are regained, thus one must assume that the standard function is used. I can't find the quote in the srd and am afb so I'll paraphrase.

When a character gains a level he may take a new level of a class he is already in or a level of a new class.

I agree that restoration would restore the original level but true level gain through xp could be any class he qualified for.

[Anlashok]

it's about what the rules say you're allowed to do, or the fact that the rules don't say that you're allowed to switch out a level in one class/HD for a different one.
The rules don't need to. DnD is an exception based rules system, you don't need the rules to tell you that you do things normally because... well that's what normal means.

The problem here being that there is no text on what happens when the levels are regained, thus one must assume that the standard function is used. I can't find the quote in the srd and am afb so I'll paraphrase.
This hits it exactly on the head.

The text says you lose a level. Full stop. In order for your assertion to be correct the rule would have to state specifically that it changed the rules for leveling up. It does not, ergo you cannot assert that the rules behave in a nonstandard way. That's how RAW works. There's normal behavior (you can pick any class you qualify for when you level up) and any deviance from that behavior (you must pick the class you were before the level drain) must be explicitly stated.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level."

Restoration doesn't give you a level-up to spend on whatever class level you want, it restores the level you lost, including what class it was in.

[Jack_Simth]

Anything that isn't undone by the Restoration line?
That's a simple fix - wait several months. "The drained levels are restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is no more than one week per caster level" for Greater Restoration and "The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level" for regular Restoration. After three weeks, you're unlikely to get a regular Restoration that'll touch the level drain (requires CL 21 - extremely doable, but such methods are unlikely to be used for a simple Restoration spell). After five months (a touch over 20 weeks), you're unlikely to get a Greater Restoration that'll touch the level drain (again, requires CL 21 - extremely doable, but again....). The more time you put into avoiding a Restoration effect, the harder it becomes to correct.

[TuggyNE]

"This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it also dispels negative levels and restores one experience level to a creature who has had a level drained. The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level. A character who has a level restored by restoration has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level."

Restoration doesn't give you a level-up to spend on whatever class level you want, it restores the level you lost, including what class it was in.

I don't think anyone's really arguing with this. They're arguing against your apparent (perceived?) assertion that all future levels, even those gained by new adventuring and thus fresh XP, must be RHD first. This assertion seems unfounded.


That's a simple fix - wait several months. "The drained levels are restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is no more than one week per caster level" for Greater Restoration and "The drained level is restored only if the time since the creature lost the level is equal to or less than one day per caster level" for regular Restoration. After three weeks, you're unlikely to get a regular Restoration that'll touch the level drain (requires CL 21 - extremely doable, but such methods are unlikely to be used for a simple Restoration spell). After five months (a touch over 20 weeks), you're unlikely to get a Greater Restoration that'll touch the level drain (again, requires CL 21 - extremely doable, but again....). The more time you put into avoiding a Restoration effect, the harder it becomes to correct.

I ninja'd you on the previous page.

[Jack_Simth]

I ninja'd you on the previous page.So you did. Check my signature.

[DarkSonic1337]

What if you were to save your experience in a thought bottle before being level drained? When you reset your experience total, would you need to put that experience into the class levels you had before?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

What if you were to save your experience in a thought bottle before being level drained? When you reset your experience total, would you need to put that experience into the class levels you had before?

It would be up to your DM.