Children, childbirth, and magic

[WarKitty]

We have the BoEF for sex and various techniques. But in a world with magic - what of characters who want to reproduce outside of normal biological constraints? What ways in the world are there of creating "offspring", either biological children or other beings that might be legitimately regarded as such?

[Erik Vale]

Any means of creating permanent servants [craft construct, spells that make permanent loyal summons that can grow themselves], wish, miracle, varients there of. Spells that create uninteligent things followed by spells that make them.

[Ranting Fool]

"A Wizard did it!"

Well there is shape shifting (If not then all those Half-Dragons are just a bit too freaky) and I'm sure someone will mention how Ice Assassin can be used (Since it is the answer to everything) and the monster manuals have more then enough examples of X creature was part Y and part Z and a wizard used magic to squish them together :smalltongue:

[Ranting Fool]

Awakened Constructs would be a good place to start.

e.g pinocchio

[WarKitty]

Ok, let me rephrase:

Let's assume that the couple, while reasonably wealthy, do not have access to complete reality-warping spells like wish or miracle. They also are not going to create their entire build around their desire to have a child with their partner of choice.

What sort of ways might they go about having a child? Creativity and suggestions that aren't explicitly listen in RAW, but are plausible by it, are allowed, since RAW tends to neglect non-combat areas.

[Serin]

Well, I don't know how well you read your BoEF, but I read mine cover to cover and here are some things I picked up.

1 - There is a magic item in the book called False Penis, Pg 138. If you read the description it attaches and becomes fully functional, allowing a woman to impregnate another woman. It is completely detachable at will.

2 - Polymorph. The BoEF specifically addresses polymorph and it's ilk on page 121-122. It specifically states that whether or not polymorph counts as a true enough transformation to accomplish reproduction is up to the DM but it also provides rules for it should you decide to allow it. It even goes so far as to point out that if the transformation is true enough to accomplish reproduction then it could produce interesting crossbreeds depending on whether you consider the polymorphed form or the original natural form to be it's True Form, and the species of the partner you are mating with. This spell could effectively be used to accomplish real genetic reproduction between any two individuals regardless of species or sex as long as you have the means to keep the polymorph going indefinitely.

The book also provides statistics for pregnancy rates, effectiveness of contraception, and crossbreeding results. I dont know if you noticed them. Basically with this book alone you can create legitimate offspring for any two characters or NPCs be they normal heterosexual humans, a gay male dragon/halfing couple, or whatever. I am actually using rules from this book in an ongoing campaign I am in where a female half elf vampire intends on having legitimate children with a human woman she loves. This is entirely possible using the False Penis and/or the Shirt of Gentle Repose from this book.

Hope that helps!

[BWR]

2e had spells to help you create mixed-species offspring, which could either be grown 'naturally' in the womb of the mother or in a vat.

[deuxhero]

It specifically states that whether or not polymorph counts as a true enough transformation to accomplish reproduction is up to the DM but it also provides rules for it should you decide to allow it.


Which is weird, because it doing so is a fact in core (it's how dragons without an innate alternate form make half dragons).

[Serin]

Which is weird, because it doing so is a fact in core (it's how dragons without an innate alternate form make half dragons).

Editors can't read, obviously.

Seriously though I dunno what's up with that. Maybe they thought they needed to clarify so it was obnoxiously obvious that it applies to all races and not just dragons? Either that or they were trying to tone it down a bit and trying to make the reader feel like they weren't forcing "creepy" reproductive possibilities on the DM?

[deuxhero]

I recall there being a 3.5 magic item by Paizo that had a bunch of utility effects relating to birthing (letting you tell if a single or multiple births was expected, enough healing to make sure the mother survives, ability to tell the sex of an unborn child). Think it was linked to Pharasma. Can't recall the exact name or find it.

edit: Found it, search wasn't turning it up for some reason: Icon of the Midwife (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Icon%20of%20th e%20Midwife). I do love these cheep flavor items (though it could use Prestidigitation, births are filthy and a very prominent cause of infant mortality historically is stuff caught from the birther as a result of poor hygiene standards, but what couldn't use Prestidigitation?).

[MrNobody]

In this case, i'd suggest to seek divine help, and not by "asking a cleric to cast X spell for you". I'm thinking bigger.

Personally, i find that sacrifice rules in BoVD can be applied to every deity, good or evil, since almost every deity can benefit from such offers.
Every "race patron deity" is suitable to give help in the birth if the couple is of the same race: i think Corellon should be really proud and happy to help a couple of devoted elves on having a child. Also, every race's pantheon has its "love or family god" taht would be pleased to help.
Long story short, every god that has family, birth, love in his portfolio could help.
And it shouldn't matter if the couple is evil aligned and the god is Good: in true polytheism everyone worship every deity and seek help from different gods in different moments. Even a dwarven high priest of Nerull should know that asking to his patron for a child would be foolish: Nerull is patron over death, and has no power on birth and childbirth.
He should avoid seeking help from Pelor (Nerull's greatest enemy), but praying Morandin shouldn't be a sin.
The couple of devils lord Belial-Fierna shoul be fit to help a truly evil couple

What to sacrifice? It depends on the deity, but it should be related to birth in some way. Nature gods should want harvest's first fruit (maybe of exotic or unusual plants) or newborn from animals (or something related, like the fur of a unicorn born by no more than a week). Race's god may ask for something different: i imagine Moradin asking for a giant statue of a pregnant woman made of fine marble and gems.

When you have decided to whom and what to sacrifice, you use the rules in BoVD and decide if the deity accept the gift and want to help.
This way should also open great plot hooks, since a child born from gods will should be closely related to him and maybe have a great destiny.

[atemu1234]

All gods have limited power over many things. Childbirth should be one of them. And there can be evil deities related to childbirth as well, but you'll probably have to make them.

[Coidzor]

Ok, let me rephrase:

Let's assume that the couple, while reasonably wealthy, do not have access to complete reality-warping spells like wish or miracle. They also are not going to create their entire build around their desire to have a child with their partner of choice.

What sort of ways might they go about having a child? Creativity and suggestions that aren't explicitly listen in RAW, but are plausible by it, are allowed, since RAW tends to neglect non-combat areas.

So, what, they want to magically make a combination of their genomes without using shapeshifting magics to be able to physically get it on? They want to magically make an instant offspring of the two of them without having had any exchange of gametes or gamete-analogues?

[John Longarrow]

So, what, they want to magically make a combination of their genomes without using shapeshifting magics to be able to physically get it on? They want to magically make an instant offspring of the two of them without having had any exchange of gametes or gamete-analogues?

Sounds like some of the tricks Zues was known for...

Athena's birth story any one???

Or just "POOF, guess who's pregnant now???"

[MrNobody]

All gods have limited power over many things. Childbirth should be one of them. And there can be evil deities related to childbirth as well, but you'll probably have to make them.

Limited, yes, but yet power. Expecially the deities that are patron to one race.
It's true that we lack of "evil god of childbirth", but homebrewing one is not such a big deal.
I can easily imagine an evil god of civilization (as opposed to nature) that want to cover all the material plane with a single, colossal city and that considers every newborn as a step forward on suffocating nature with human "hostile" presence.

[WarKitty]

So, what, they want to magically make a combination of their genomes without using shapeshifting magics to be able to physically get it on? They want to magically make an instant offspring of the two of them without having had any exchange of gametes or gamete-analogues?

I just wanted something that would work without "be a high-level wizard" or something similar being a prerequisite. Especially since characters capable of casting 9th level spells aren't typically available for hire.

[Zanos]

I just wanted something that would work without "be a high-level wizard" or something similar being a prerequisite. Especially since characters capable of casting 9th level spells aren't typically available for hire.
Creating life in general is pretty intense stuff in most settings, even in D&D. If you want to create life under interesting circumstances it's going to require a bit of magic.

Alter Self would probably work though, and is only second level.

You could also buy a potion of bestow/remove curse and use the "swap gender" option.

[Coidzor]

I just wanted something that would work without "be a high-level wizard" or something similar being a prerequisite. Especially since characters capable of casting 9th level spells aren't typically available for hire.

But what *kinds* of something are you really wanting here?

[WarKitty]

But what *kinds* of something are you really wanting here?

See below:


Creating life in general is pretty intense stuff in most settings, even in D&D. If you want to create life under interesting circumstances it's going to require a bit of magic.

Alter Self would probably work though, and is only second level.

You could also buy a potion of bestow/remove curse and use the "swap gender" option.

[Leviting]

If you cast clone, then cast animate objects, followed by permanency, will the body still rot? Because you could create life pretty easily with that.
Also, what would happen if you mixed samples from two (or more) different creatures before starting the cloneing process? That way the "child" wouldn't be your identical twin. Would that work?

[WarKitty]

If you cast clone, then cast animate objects, followed by permanency, will the body still rot? Because you could create life pretty easily with that.
Also, what would happen if you mixed samples from two (or more) different creatures before starting the cloneing process? That way the "child" wouldn't be your identical twin. Would that work?

Animate objects would be the weakness here. You really want something that'll be a living being, rather than your standard construct. It would be better if you could blend the warforged creation process with the clone spell, in order to create a sentient being with the DNA of the desired donors.

[Psyren]

You could put a fantastic spin on the regular alternatives of surrogacy and adoption. Beleaguered parents of supernatural origin - e.g. metallic dragons, seelie fey or celestials - who must abandon a child with a mortal family in order to save it from a catastrophe. A magical being that either genuinely cares for, or carnally seduces, a mortal for a brief tryst with lasting implications. A grieving family who, barren, must go to a deity (of either alignment extreme) for aid with having a child, and accept the price that comes with that assistance. Perhaps they keep their end of the bargain, or perhaps they renege on their promise after having grown with the child. Perhaps the deity seeks vengeance, or perhaps this was all part of their grand design all along.

Or a mundane family could simply conceive a child in sorcerous circumstances. Perhaps there is an auspicious zodiac event going on at the time, or a magical experiment gone awry nearby, or during a mage-war, or even inside a TARDIS near an artifact.

[Coidzor]

Which is weird, because it doing so is a fact in core (it's how dragons without an innate alternate form make half dragons).

I didn't think that was ever confirmed. :smallconfused: You remember where that's detailed?


2e had spells to help you create mixed-species offspring, which could either be grown 'naturally' in the womb of the mother or in a vat.

Fun fun.

[Serin]

I think we're kinda getting off topic given that she wanted something that wasnt essentially "be a high lvl wizard."

Op - can you be more specific about the characters involved here? If I knew what you were trying to mate I might be able to offer a useful solution.

[WarKitty]

Let's say for this point that, although I do somewhat have a specific character in mind, I am also thinking of this as a setting detail for areas where multiple races might interact (fey, awakened animals, humanoids...).

[Serin]

Well. BoEF has a table on page 50 that does a pretty good job of laying out which sentient races are capable of crossbreeding. I would probably use that rather than trying to reason it out myself. As far as awakened animals go, I would probably go with them being required to use some sort of polymorph magic to breed with something not of their species. I mean, it would be silly and possibly disturbing to some individuals if you're getting a wearbear because someone elf's dad was an awakened bear.

That being said, take a look at the spells Blessed Seed and Fiendish Seed. The spell description says that the next act of copulation with someone of the opposite sex automatically results in pregnancy. It doesn't specify that the individuals must be the same race so per strict RAW the spell alone could allow crossbreeds. It also applies the Half-Celestial or Half-fiend templates to the child. They are level 4ish spells but I do have to wonder if this was the intent of the spell.

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You're pretty much limited to this book unless you want to home brew but the options really come down to:

Female/Female couples can use the false penis as long as they are of similar race - its only 6k

1 Casting of Blessed Seed would only be 280gp for a 7th level cleric to cast in PF. which would be cheaper than any dedicated item. But that doesn't get you around any sex barriers, only around the issue of a character being infertile or sterile. (I dont have 3.5 core to check price).

Reverse Gender is a lvl 2 cleric spell and is measured in hrs/level. If your characters are of similar enough races you could spend some money on wands. A few rough calcs show that it would take 25 wands to get through a human pregnancy keeping a male in female form. It would be cheaper though to make a continuous item of reverse gender (12k)

Then there are polymorph options which would be necessary for any race combination that physically can't accomplish mating. (mostly due to size issues.)

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In my opinion as a DM - If I was planning for this to come up in a game or if I had players interested in this I would set up something along these lines.

Most humanoid races can accomplish mating in a physical sense, so the only barrier would be for same-sex couples. I can easily see *any* large temple of a deity whose portfolio includes childbearing to have magic items such a the False Penis or a continuous worn item of Reverse Gender available for use to such couples. It might be free to borrow if its a good aligned god and there might be a rental fee if its an evil god. You'd basically go to the temple with your partner and announce your intentions to mate and ask to use the items for assistance. Some lawful religions may require marriage vows in their temple as proof of your convictions, or at least proof of marriage. Chaotic religions probably wouldn't care if your union was official or sanctioned. This by itself would allow most races to mate, and would not require much expense to the religion. The item of reverse gender only costs 12k and that one item would allow for any race within 1-2 size categories of each other to mate. Especially given a casting of Blessed Seed etc.

Basically if you have a Ring of Reverse Gender and 2 ladies wish to have a child, they can borrow or rent the item for a few hours, along with a casting of blessed seed, and boom one of them is pregnant. If 2 men want to mate they would have to borrow/rent the ring for the gestation period to keep one of them female the whole time. When they are done with it they simply bring it back to the temple.

The same temples would be able to assist more exotic couples in finding a way to mate, although that is where you would get into potentially needing a polymorph. I would probably have it set up that the clerics of the temple have a wizard or sorc they know that usually handles maintaining the polymorphs for it. It would definitely require large fees and the couple would have to foot that bill. An exceptionally large temple or exceptionally wealthy religion may have 1 item that provides a continuous polymorph spell but that would be more on the line of 1 item per religion and require questing to find and/or prove your worth to the religion.

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Shenanigan ideas - The PF version of baleful polymorph says it turns the target into a small animal of 1HD or less permanently. Technically this would allow you to turn someone into a halfling or other small race as they are "animals" but that is shenanigans as they are humanoid type not animal type. You could BP both parties into a small animal like a dog or some such but if such a transformation is true then the children born would be animals and not intelligent or anthromorphic. Although such animals could then be awakened.

Interestingly enough this also made me realize that BP can be used to accomplish reproduction of *anything* with a small sized awakened animal. I could also see using Shrink magic to shrink an awakened bear down small enough that a person could be BP'd into something it could mate with.

Because BP is permanent until dispelled it would only take 1 cast and thus should be fairly cheap.

Hope that helps. I tried to come up with several options that I would use myself. Sadly the more the to individuals differ the more expensive it will be to mate them.

[Coidzor]

Let's say for this point that, although I do somewhat have a specific character in mind, I am also thinking of this as a setting detail for areas where multiple races might interact (fey, awakened animals, humanoids...).

If Awakened Animals can't pass on their intelligent state to their offspring, some might turn to... squickier methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323220-Creepiness-in-the-Daelkyr-Half-Blood-race) in order to have offspring that can think.

[WarKitty]

Not opposed to homebrew here, though I'm more thinking of general "how might this be accomplished" than specifics.

Would there be a magical way of using surrogate mothers, for male/male couples or other types that might not be able to bear children on their own? Obviously this option has a multitude of ethical implications, but surely it wouldn't be considered necessarily overtly evil.

Coidzor brings up a good point - how do you handle awakened animals and other intelligent types that might not necessarily breed true, but still want a child like them?

[Serin]

Not opposed to homebrew here, though I'm more thinking of general "how might this be accomplished" than specifics.

Would there be a magical way of using surrogate mothers, for male/male couples or other types that might not be able to bear children on their own? Obviously this option has a multitude of ethical implications, but surely it wouldn't be considered necessarily overtly evil.

Coidzor brings up a good point - how do you handle awakened animals and other intelligent types that might not necessarily breed true, but still want a child like them?

Well. If you're looking for a thought exercise....

As far as surrogates go impregnating the surrogate is the easy part. A turkey baster with the appropriately meshed genetic goo or teleporting an existing fetus into the womb would work. If you really wanted to try and split hairs you could target the surrogate's genetic material in an egg and teleport it out and teleport one of the father's genetic material in. Then the 2nd father just needs to couple with the surrogate to accomplish genetic recombination. Mind you in this method 25% of all the children would be stillborn as they would inherit a Y/Y sex chromosome pair and would not be viable.

In pathfinder there is also the alchemist class, which has an archtype that specifically deals with surgery. It would not be beyond the realm of imagination that such an individual could perform the necessary operations for implanting a fetus into a surrogate. Given the extracts and Jekyl and Hyde esqe mutagens the individual also creates I could see being able to mix the fathers' genetic material up in a test tube some how and magically getting them to combine and just needing it implanted.

I don't remember where I read it but I remember there being some sort of precedent that awakened animals pass on some form of increased intellect. Maybe that was just regarding lycanthropes. There is the Manimal Template for pathfinder that makes the animal intelligent and able to take a humanoid form but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense if its two awakened animals mating. Maybe if it were a humanoid and an awakened animal.

There's also the option of just having the children being born awakened. It really depends on whether you consider the awaken spell to affect just the mind or the creatures entire body. In any event I could see the child of an awakened animal having at least 3 int, though maybe not fully awakened. Perhaps you could rule that if an awakened animal takes a standard animal as a mate the children only have animal intelligence or just above it but if both parents are awakened then the children are born with their intelligence?


Thinking about this after reading http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?323220-Creepiness-in-the-Daelkyr-Half-Blood-race/page1has got me thinking about a Fist of the Forest that completely eschews society and takes some sort of wolf as her mate. That would lead to some very interesting children and odd visuals.

[atemu1234]

For the (ahem) progeny I recommend Bastards and Bloodlines and Encyclopedia Arcane: Crossbreeding. Other than that, BoEF is the conception, but doesn't have too much on what 's produced by certain... odd couplings.

[Coidzor]

Not opposed to homebrew here, though I'm more thinking of general "how might this be accomplished" than specifics.

Would there be a magical way of using surrogate mothers, for male/male couples or other types that might not be able to bear children on their own? Obviously this option has a multitude of ethical implications, but surely it wouldn't be considered necessarily overtly evil.

Coidzor brings up a good point - how do you handle awakened animals and other intelligent types that might not necessarily breed true, but still want a child like them?

This was the kludge I came up with when I decided "y'know what, I want to allow for magical beast/intelligent animal companions," and decided that I didn't really like trying to play around with Awaken as written and made my own template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16297690&postcount=3).


Magic in the Blood (Su): A Magical Creature's changes pass onto its progeny. For the purposes of breeding, an animal that was the subject of an Awaken spell counts as a Magical Creature.

If two Magical Creatures mate, their offspring will inherit the template, with the exception that Intelligence and Charisma are generated as normal(Whether that be by rolling, point buy, or choosing an array) with a +2 to each rather than set at 2 and then increased by 4(or changed to be 4+3d4).
If a Magical Creature mates with a Magebred example of the base creature, then there is an equal 33% chance that each offspring is Magebred, a Magical Creature, or inherits both templates, with a 1% chance that the offspring is a throwback to the base creature without templates.
If a Magical Creature mates with a normal example of the base creature, there is a 50% chance that a Magebred creature is the result, a 25% chance that a Magical Creature is the result, and a 25% chance that the offspring is a normal example of the base creature.