Warlock idea

[TheNervyOne]

Not a homebrew really just a question about if this would be to much.

Giving the Warlock access to the DFA invocations and breath effects (To act as essences for blasts)
And give it a progression more like the TOB classes such as the Swordsage or maybe Warblade to keep it more restricted? (With Maneuvers known being Invocations Known, Maneuvers Readied being Essences Known, and Stances known being Blast Shapes known.)

Or maybe giving the Warlock access to all his and the DFA invocations at each level available but with a restricted number a day. For example day 1 the warlock chooses to use Beguiling Influence as he needs the social buff while in the city. So all he can do is use that invocation today because at level 1 a Warlock only knows 1, but the next day its a snowstorm and he has to venture out into it. Well he can use the DFA's Endure Elements today.

Of course I would increase the number of invocations a day to 3 or so at level 1

[IslandDog]

I'm not too familiar with DFA, but a warlock is a tier 4 (arguably). So buffing them wouldn't be game breaking if the rest of the party was mostly tier 1's and 2's.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Giving free access to both is broken IMO. If you play with optimizers, go for it. But there's a reason they use two different lists. I'm pretty sure you CAN access each other's invocations, but it takes a feat AND it allows access to invocations TWO ranks lower than your highest you can use.

[SliceandDiceKid]

The example you just gave is broken for the class. Any reasonable or critically thinking DM will deny your request to do this.

[TheNervyOne]

Why the double post?

And what is broken about it? And which one I asked about two variations in this.

The fact is the Warlock has 12 invocations over 20 levels and it should have more. Infernal Adept if the feat you are thinking of, its basically an extra invocation slot.

Warlocks were heavily nerfed because people feared their invocations as atwills would be too powerful and severely restricted them.

Now a Warblade table would granted 1 additional invocation known, and just split off the essence and blast shapes as needed.

[mabriss lethe]

Just ballparking here:

Pooling invocations into a single list for both warlock and DFA, bypassing the feat tax, wouldn't break either class. Nor would adding more invocations known. It would take away some of the uniqueness of each class, but that's not terribly relevant to the discussion.

Even if you boosted invocations known to 1/level and opened up the invocation lists, Tier-wise they'd clock in somewhere on the same page as, or maybe a little higher than a Psychic Warrior: The top end of T3.

[TheNervyOne]

Just ballparking here:

Pooling invocations into a single list for both warlock and DFA, bypassing the feat tax, wouldn't break either class. Nor would adding more invocations known. It would take away some of the uniqueness of each class, but that's not terribly relevant to the discussion.

Even if you boosted invocations known to 1/level and opened up the invocation lists, Tier-wise they'd clock in somewhere on the same page as, or maybe a little higher than a Psychic Warrior: The top end of T3.

Which is kind of my point I want them to be T3
Is you used a Swordsage progression they would have 10 Least Invocations, 5 Lesser, 5 Great, and 5 Dark Invocations at level 20. 12 Essences/breath effects known and 6 Blast Shapes known, which may be nearly all but it allows adaptability that the class is seriously lacking.

Edit: Also seriously thinking of moving Imbue Item from lv12 to lvl 6/lvl 8 and leave 12 as a dead level.

Would this be too much?

[kharmakazy]

The example you just gave is broken for the class. Any reasonable or critically thinking DM will deny your request to do this.

That's not in any way a valid point. You can't just say "It's obviously broken and you'd have to be dumb to allow it!" and not give a single reason as to why.

You could give the warlock access to both lists and double the number of invocations granted at each level and it still wouldn't approach the power level of the wizard.


but there's a reason they use two different lists.

And that reason is? Please cite a single reason why this is OP. There's a reason the players don't start of with free 5 lb bags of sand. That doesn't make it overpowered to do so.

[genericwit]

Honestly I think the best way to balance the warlock is just to allow them to use iteratives with their blast (not letting them add a shape if they choose to use iteratives, and limiting any essences to the first blast) and giving them an invocation at every level (perhaps limiting some of these to shapes/essences, like 12 of any and 4 essences and 4 shapes or 14 of any and 3 essences and 3 shapes).

Suddenly they're a lot more viable as a blaster (without picking up eldritch glaive) and have a lot more combat versatility.

[Socratov]

I think giving the Warlock about 15/16 invocations total and merging the lists of the DFA and Warlock list. it won't be utterly overpowered.

On moving Imbue item: Well, either you are going to use the ability, or you aren't. if you do you are probably going to take 2 levels of Chameleon to get he floating feat. by then lvl 12 is a good point (especially considering the UMD skill checks). If not then it doesn't really matter when you get it.