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spotmarkedx
2007-02-06, 03:05 PM
Greetings! So, I'm dusting off my DM's hat and starting to run a d20 campaign. Since my group has been (or is currently) involved in a number of various "standard" ruleset D&D, as well as a few homebrew, I thought I'd mess around with the system a bit. I've GM'ed in a number of different systems, as well as having been an active player in a number of games, some of which are still running. So, I'm not coming at this cold, at least.

The concept I have has basis in some way on the Dynasty Warriors line of console games. For those that are unfamiliar, Dynasty Warrions is a fairly over-the-top game, in which the player is a Chinese general in ancient China based off the book "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". The player is of course capable of tearing through huge mobs of enemy units, duelling enemy generals, and generally turning the course of the battle.

So, I've devised a mass combat system in which a good general could easily tear up masses of regular guys, command units to do specific tasks, etc, hopefully without getting too bogged down.

Yes, I'm familiar with Heroes of Battle, but it doesn't quite have the same flair I'm going for.

Ground rules of the world:
Magic is not in the hands of many. It is assumed that one makes pacts with demons or evil entities to gain their powers. Thus most classes are adjusted to remove magic either mostly or totally from them. Any that retain magic retain things that can be explained in a mundane fashion. Mages, Clerics and the like are out from starting classes. Pact magic is in (though nobody took that class in my player group so far). I haven't thought terribly much about how magic will work in this battle system, something I'll work on later as I need magic or once everything else is done.

Generals (i.e. PCs or important NPC enemies or allies) are significantly beyond the skill level of line soldiers. As such, a unit of troops will act like a single character on the field of battle. A character will never be subsumed as only "part of this unit".

I'll be posting the rest in sections and editing as necessary. Any thoughts on improvements, giant gaping holes of cheese, or even just running commentary would be appreciated.


Battlefield Combat Rules

Scale
To give space for my units of mooks to move around, scale had to be changed. To make things easy, I multiplied by 10. Squares are 50 feet each. Each battle "round" is a minute (60 sec). I put units at groups of 20 men (so each unit starts with 20 hps, which can eventually increase). I allow two allied units to "stack" within a square without penalty since a single unit certainly does not take up all the space in the square. I need to figure out what will happen if someone decides to put more units in a single square anyway

Unit Basic Rules
>Units have threat range of one square on either cardinal or diagonal.
>Units act as characters would for purposes of movement, combat. Each 5' of normal move becomes a single 50' with regards to battle movement.

Single Character Basic Rules
>Characters have a threat range of only the square they occupy
>Characters cannot keep an enemy unit from passing through their location (though they would get an attack of opportunity)

Character Within a Unit Basic Rules
>Unit acts as normal
>The character within may threaten a single square that is in a cardinal or diagonal direction that he chooses
>The character may choose not to threaten a square, in which case he is also safe from attack unless the unit he is with becomes decimated or destroyed. A character so hidden still provokes attacks of opportunity.
Characters in Units
>A character in a unit adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to the unit’s morale value.
>A character, as a move equivalent action, may add his charisma bonus as a morale bonus to the unit’s to hit value. If the unit has access to power attack or expertise, it may use this bonus as additional base attack bonus which can then be converted to additional damage or AC. A unit may not gain additional attacks from this increase.
>A character, as a move equivalent action, may add his charisma bonus as a morale bonus to the unit’s morale. This bonus lasts through the current term and until the end of the unit’s next turn. This does not affect any morale checks that must be made at the start of initiative for the current turn, but does affect them for the next round.

Unit vs. Unit Interaction
>A unit may attack or be attacked by multiple enemy units in different squares. Each unit that is attacking (or being attacked) has the possibility of both dealing and taking damage. A cumulative penalty of -2 will be imposed to both attack and defense values to the outnumbered unit for each opponent after the first that attacks (or is attacked)
>Two allied units may share the same square. These units are considered a single unit for purposes of outnumbering penalties.
>A unit may be attacking two (or more) units in the same square. If it is not attacking the side or rear, then the defender chooses which of the defending units is in “front”, and that unit determines the defense value for the stack, and takes the casualties. If more casualties are inflicted than remain in the unit, the overflow is inflicted on the second unit in the same square.
>The “front” of an engaged unit consists of three adjacent threatened squares. The defender may choose the three squares.
>Flanking a unit is per normal D&D rules and requires two units directly opposite to gain a bonus to both units’ attack values. Otherwise units only gain the outnumbering bonus listed above.


Single Character(s) vs. Unit Interaction
>A character may move through a square of threatened area and generate no attacks of opportunity from a unit, if he ends his movement in the next square and his next movement is into a unit (either a friendly unit to join, or an enemy unit to attack)

Unit vs. Single Character(s) Interaction
>A unit attacking a character by himself is always considered to be flanking him and gains the +2 flanking bonus to hit.
>An undamaged unit may attack up to four single characters for free as part of an attack action
>A damaged unit may attack up to two single characters for free as part of an attack action
>A decimated unit may not attack any single characters for free
>A unit may choose to use its attack action to attack a character as well (essentially getting two attacks on the same character)
>If a unit is attacking a character twice in the above way, it may instead choose to sacrifice one of their two attacks as an “aid another action” to get an additional +2 bonus to hit.

Unit vs. Character(s) Within a Unit Interaction
>A unit attacking a character within a unit is only considered flanking if the unit is flanked.
>An undamaged unit may attack up to four characters for free as part of an attack action
>A damaged unit may attack up to two single characters for free as part of an attack action
>A decimated unit may not attack any single characters for free
>A unit may only choose to use its attack action to attack a character if it is decimated (essentially it may never get two attacks on the same character by using free attacks)


Weapon Types

Ranged Combat
>For purposes of ranged combat, the first square of range is only considered 10 feet. Each square thereafter is the full 50 feet
>To make point blank shot even vaguely useful, point blank range is extended to 60 feet
>Firing missile weapons at an enemy unit will never count for outnumbering effects, and is therefore always at the opponent’s full defense value
Reach Weapons
>Units with reach weapons still only threaten the adjacent squares around them.
>A unit with reach weapons that is in the same square as an ally may choose to allow the other unit to be attacked (i.e. the other unit is the front line unit), but may still attack
Thrown Weapons
>Unthreatened units with thrown weapons may throw them as an attack of opportunity when a unit enters their threatened zone. Damage from thrown weapons used this way is reduced by one size category (i.e. small instead of medium)
>Unthreatened units with thrown weapons that move to attack range of an opponent may choose to use their thrown weapons instead of melee. If they do so, the opponent so attacked does not make an attack at the throwing unit, unless they also otherwise unthreatened and also have throwing weapons. These attack(s) do not count for purposes of outnumbering effects, and are therefore always at the opponent’s full defense value. Damage from thrown weapons used in this way are normal.

spotmarkedx
2007-02-06, 03:05 PM
Damage and morale

>There are four stages of unit damage. These are: healthy, damaged, decimated, and destroyed.
>A unit is healthy to start, and has no penalties.
>Once a unit is below 50% of its starting hit points, it is damaged. A damaged unit has a -1 penalty to morale (but not rally) and a -1 penalty to damage rolls
>Once a unit is below 25% of its starting hit points, it is decimated. A decimated unit has a -2 penalty to morale (but not rally) and a -2 penalty to damage rolls
>A unit with 0 hit points is destroyed and is removed from the field of battle.
>There are four states of unit morale. These are: unaffected, shaken, frightened, and panicked.
>An unit is unaffected to start, and has no penalties
>A shaken unit takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws (including further morale or rally checks), skill checks and ability checks.
>A frightened unit is shaken, and will attempt to withdraw from combat until they are either rallied or are more than a double move away from the closest enemy unit, at which point they will attempt to rally themselves.
>A panicked unit is shaken, and will attempt to flee from the field of battle. After three rounds of fleeing, the unit may make a single attempt to rally as part of their flight each round.

>A unit's morale value is equal to their will save
>A unit's rally value is equal to a charisma adjusted will save (replace the wis modifier with a cha modifier)

Causing Morale Checks
>All morale checks are made against a DC of 15 (?)
>Record your units’ current hit points at the start of your own turn. If, before the unit’s next turn, it takes casualties equal or above 25% of this number, the unit must make a morale check at the start of its initiative before any actions are taken. If the unit takes equal or above 50%, the unit must take two morale checks. If it takes 75% of this number, it must take three morale checks.
>If a unit is attacked in its side or rear, it must make an immediate morale check
>Any effect that would normally cause a will saving throw against fear instead causes a morale check.

Rally Checks
>A unit attempting to rally by itself uses a move-equivalent action.
>If the unit is in combat, or within a single move action of an enemy unit, the rally DC is 20.
>If the unit is within a double move action, but not a single move, the rally DC is 15
>If the unit is outside a double move action of the nearest enemy, the rally DC is 10
>A character attempting to rally a unit is a move-equivalent action that may be combined with normal movement. A character rallying a unit causes an immediate rally check, and adds his charisma bonus to the unit’s rally value. A character with 5 ranks of either diplomacy or intimidate may choose to add a +2 synergy bonus to this roll.
>A character may only attempt to rally a unit once per round.

spotmarkedx
2007-02-06, 03:06 PM
Unit Creation Rules
Unit base statline is (14 / 13 / 12 / 11 / 10 / 8)
Unit has 70gp of equipment
Unit has two skills, base
• The number of skills held by the unit is modified by intelligence
• The unit has 4 ranks if the skill chosen is a class skill for warriors
• The unit has 2 ranks if the skill chosen is cross-class for warriors
Unit has one feat, base
Unit has 20 hit points, base

Unit Advancement Rules - When given an advancement, the unit may purchase:
+ 3 Hit points
+ 1 Stat point
+ 35gp of equipment
+ 1 feat (this costs two advancements)
One crossclass skill may be considered class for this unit
One additional skill choice may be purchased
A +1 bonus to morale and rally values

Unit Advancement Limitations
Advancements 1 through 10
• Advancements are regular cost
• A maximum of 5 stat points may be purchased
• No stat may be increased more than +1
• A maximum of +15 hit points may be purchased
• A maximum of 1 feat may be purchased
• One additional skill choice may be purchased
• Morale and rally values may not be increased

Advancements 11 through 20
• All advancements aside from additional unit equipment cost an additional advancement
• The unit gains 5 + Con modifier hit points when it gains its 11th advancement
• A maximum of 6 stat points may be purchased above the base value
• One stat may be increased to +2, no other stat may be increased more than +1
• A maximum of +21 hit points may be purchased above the base value
• A maximum of 2 feats may be purchased beyond the starting feat
• Two additional skill choices may be purchased
• Morale and rally values may not be increased

Advancements 21 through 30
• All advancements aside from additional unit equipment cost two additional advancements
• The unit gains 5 + Con modifier hit points when it gains its 21st advancement
• A maximum of 7 stat points may be purchased above the base value
• One stat may be increased to +2, no other stat may be increased more than +1
• A maximum of +27 hit points may be purchased above the base value
• A maximum of 3 feats may be purchased beyond the starting feat
• Three additional skill choices may be purchased
• Morale and rally values may be increased by a maximum of +1 from base

Advancements 31 through 50
• All advancements aside from additional unit equipment cost three additional advancements
• The unit gains 5 + Con modifier hit points when it gains its 31st advancement
• A maximum of 8 stat points may be purchased above the base value
• Two stats may be increased to +2, no other stat may be increased more than +1
• A maximum of +33 hit points may be purchased above the base value
• A maximum of 3 feats may be purchased beyond the starting feat
• Four additional skill choices may be purchased
• Morale and rally values may be increased by a maximum of +1 from base

Unit Statistics
Strength – Affects to hit and damage values per normal
Dexterity – Affects to hit and defense values per normal
Constitution – When unit is recruited, adds twice bonus to hit points. Will affect force marches and the like
Intelligence – Affects number of skills known
Wisdom – Affects morale value
Charisma – Affects rally value

need to figure out how I want to deal with characters buying equipment for their units or dealing with battlefield spoils.

spotmarkedx
2007-02-06, 03:06 PM
Reserved for Henchmen (lieutenants and bodyguards)

spotmarkedx
2007-02-06, 03:07 PM
Reserved for character damage and healing

spotmarkedx
2007-02-06, 03:08 PM
Reserved in case I need it (magic?)

-done reserving posts for now.
-will fill in henchmen and character damage/healing later

Arceliar
2007-02-06, 04:45 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original Dungeons&Dragons a add-on to the Chainmail system. It essentially reduced it to a 1-1 for each game piece type system and introduced the concepts of "character development" and "plot" or something like that.

*whips out original d&d set and checks* yup, that looks about right to me

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but isn't this sort of a step in the wrong direction? Kind of like reading the novelization of a movie that was already based on a novel? Only with dice.. Don't get me wrong, it could certainly be useful in some respects, but it seems to me like you might be trying to reinvent the wheel.

spotmarkedx
2007-02-07, 08:24 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original Dungeons&Dragons a add-on to the Chainmail system. It essentially reduced it to a 1-1 for each game piece type system and introduced the concepts of "character development" and "plot" or something like that.

*whips out original d&d set and checks* yup, that looks about right to me

Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious, but isn't this sort of a step in the wrong direction? Kind of like reading the novelization of a movie that was already based on a novel? Only with dice.. Don't get me wrong, it could certainly be useful in some respects, but it seems to me like you might be trying to reinvent the wheel.

Fair enough questions I guess.

Firstly, if it wasn't clear enough before, the characters still are full characters, even on the battlefield. Consider them almost like they are just changed in scale, so they are "fine" instead of "medium" creatures (with special rules, since the "medium" creatures/units don't really have more reach than the characters). Units move and attack kind of like more characters. They have attack values, feats, skills. It is just assumed that if a character, say, attacks a unit and does d8+4 damage, he is actually killing or incapacitating d8+4 enemy soldiers during the minute of that combat round. A unit gaining hit points is really just a unit increasing in size.

So. I still intend to have character development. I still have a significant plot, which I don't want to get into since I know the majority of my players read the Order of the Stick. Hm. If its necessary, I could put it behind a spoiler tag, but I'm confident that my plotting is reasonably proficient. Its the system that I want help with.

Which leads me to my problem. I've the minis handbook (possibly a mostly wasted purchase), which is really just a minis game, not a RPG. I could break out Warhammer Fantasy rules, but again, thats a minis game. Apparently I can try to find old copies of Chainmail, but it soulds like that is a minis game. Not what I'm looking for. Heroes of Battle is significantly closer, but not exactly (I'll probably be using some of the VP concepts within it though).

Does that help explain?

Raveler1
2007-02-07, 08:56 AM
You might want to check out Testament: Roleplaying in the Biblical Era. It's a little strange, but it has battlefield rules similar to (though not exactly like) those you're describing.

spotmarkedx
2007-02-07, 09:10 AM
I did forget to mention that. If you do know of any rulebooks that have either a similar system, or something along the lines of what I'm trying to achieve, feel free to point them out to me. Thanks :D