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View Full Version : A logical opposite of succubi/incubi



Jeivar
2014-04-11, 10:50 AM
The thought occurred: We aren't living in Victorian times anymore, and maybe it's time to stop thinking of sex as the ultimate weapon of evil.

We have succubi, who have powers specifically intended to seduce mortals for evil purposes, either to drain them dead or lure them to evil.

How about the opposite end of the spectrum? How about a type of Celestials who walk among mortals in disguise with a sort of hippie-ish universal love attitude, using physical affection to draw people to them and bring out their better nature? A brief fling with an angel could be something that would lift the spirits of a despairing lost soul, or the angel could reverse the energy drain thing and breathe health and vigor into their partner.

What do you think? I'm not planning on using this in a campaign but D&D includes evil sex monsters I feel there should be an opposite, if only to not portray sex as inherently bad.

Lord Raziere
2014-04-11, 10:53 AM
if I remember there was some write up somewhere, I think on the homebrew forum about this chaotic good succubus-angel thing that was apart of this fleshing out of the chaotic good planes or something, that was what you are talking about? I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I'm pretty sure its somewhere...

Jeivar
2014-04-11, 10:58 AM
if I remember there was some write up somewhere, I think on the homebrew forum about this chaotic good succubus-angel thing that was apart of this fleshing out of the chaotic good planes or something, that was what you are talking about? I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I'm pretty sure its somewhere...

I haven't seen that. My point is just that it would be neat to see something like that.

Waker
2014-04-11, 11:00 AM
Without getting into the real-world religious views on the matter, there is some precedent with associating sex with the divine, so having an Angel analogous to an Incubus (say that three times fast) wouldn't be wholly unbelievable. I would say that having powers that heal and allowing them to harvest Joy or something would all be in line with that. They would most frequently be found in the employ of deities who promote love and beauty, Sune being a prime example.

Yora
2014-04-11, 11:00 AM
Well, the eladrin of Planescape are all about promoting and defending life, fun, and happiness.

Wouldn't be out of place among their ranks.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-11, 11:30 AM
With the number of Aasimar I see running around, I imagine the standard angels are already doing a good enough job of seducing mortals in their downtime.

Making a specialized angel for that is kind of redundant: Angels already appear as idealized beautiful humans, have charisma out the wazoo, and (judging by the various templates which indicate celestial heritage) are willing to bang just about anything.

The Oni
2014-04-11, 11:50 AM
Angels do bang stuff, but that's not what they're *about*. If there were an incarnation of Good Sex, he/she would probably be an Eladrin.

In a setting I wrote, one of the Neutral Good gods has a tendency to seduce mortal women quite a bit. This always results in pregnancy, of course, but the mortal in question always "happens" to find some ludicrous (by commoner standards at least) fortune conspicuously buried under their house or something, and for the rest of their lives they and their kids just tend to be extremely lucky. It's divine child support.

Socksy
2014-04-11, 11:52 AM
an Angel analogous to an Incubus (say that three times fast)

This is far too fun.

Plus, what I first thought of when I read the thread title was a succubus feeding off platonic affection. A platonic demon rather than a sexual celestial.

The Oni
2014-04-11, 12:16 PM
This is far too fun.

Plus, what I first thought of when I read the thread title was a succubus feeding off platonic affection. A platonic demon rather than a sexual celestial.

...A demon that just needs to be loved seems far too sympathetic to be CE for long. Unless we're getting into some kind of Yandere-demon. The opposite of an erodaemon, maybe.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/daemons/erodaemon

Themrys
2014-04-11, 01:48 PM
The thought occurred: We aren't living in Victorian times anymore, and maybe it's time to stop thinking of sex as the ultimate weapon of evil.

We have succubi, who have powers specifically intended to seduce mortals for evil purposes, either to drain them dead or lure them to evil.

How about the opposite end of the spectrum? How about a type of Celestials who walk among mortals in disguise with a sort of hippie-ish universal love attitude, using physical affection to draw people to them and bring out their better nature? A brief fling with an angel could be something that would lift the spirits of a despairing lost soul, or the angel could reverse the energy drain thing and breathe health and vigor into their partner.

What do you think? I'm not planning on using this in a campaign but D&D includes evil sex monsters I feel there should be an opposite, if only to not portray sex as inherently bad.

Well, there is this myth about selkies, that when a woman is sad, maybe because her husband is away at sea, or maybe because he's an *******, or whatever, and she drops seven tears into the sea, a very attractive male selkie will appear and "comfort" her. (Described here, for example: http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/selkiefolk/)

This legend works so well because it is very clear on that the women actually want to contact a selkie, and has none of the "rape is seduction" bull**** that you get in Greek mythology.

If you want to create an angelic creature that has sex with mortals, you can learn from that. So, 1) explicitly consensual sex only 2) everyone knows how they are and no one is disappointed if they don't want to marry. 3) two sexes. Apart from the fact that humanoid always-female races are somewhat stupid, they're also sexist.


Not everyone likes sex, so any positive effects your newly invented creature has on mortals (reverse energy drain, or whatever) should be doable via a hug or even just a kind smile. Otherwise people would feel pressured into having sex, and that would make it rapey, and thus evil, and you don't want that.

Mewtarthio
2014-04-11, 02:28 PM
How about a type of Celestials who walk among mortals in disguise with a sort of hippie-ish universal love attitude, using physical affection to draw people to them and bring out their better nature? A brief fling with an angel could be something that would lift the spirits of a despairing lost soul, or the angel could reverse the energy drain thing and breathe health and vigor into their partner.

The "disguise" part is a bit of a sticking point. If you're hiding your motivations for sex from your partner, that's not exactly a positive example of sexuality. Still, I do like the idea of beings that show up to comfort mortals without secretly planning to suck out their souls or implant terrible spawn or anything. Like that selkie example. That's a good example.

I heard that you were feeling ill:
Headache, fever, and a chill!
I came to help restore your pluck...

BWR
2014-04-11, 03:36 PM
You have this (http://eilidh.deviantart.com/art/Fall-From-Grace-184805777)sort of opposite succubus. One who focuses on intellectual lusts, education and enlightenment rather than base flesh, emtions and corruption.

But as others have mentioned, this is basically the domain of the eladrin. Freedom, art, passion: that's the eldarin. Aasimon dedicated to various gods of love and sex are also appropriate.

Eldan
2014-04-11, 04:49 PM
The angels are really whatever their gods want them to be. Gods of love (and sex) would probably have sexy angels.

The archons are probably, as a whole, to stuck up. I could see the odd Guardinal engaging in it, but that's probably more a personal thing for them.

The Eladrin, however? Walking amongst humans in disguise is their whole shtick. Though mostly, it is to empower mortals and to inspire them to great deeds. I guess sex can be very inspiring, see muses.

A propos muses, the Lillendi.

NichG
2014-04-11, 05:08 PM
There are a lot of weird directions one could take it that might be interesting (in general, I tend to expect all outsiders to be a bit weird anyhow since their frame of reference is not the same as that of mortals - so not just 'really Good mortals').

So for example, a Good outsider who acts as a prosthetic parent when a barren/sterile couple prays for a child, which could be via direct participation or even by possession of the father or mother.

Another interesting thing to explore is that idea that both Good and Evil versions of a particular outsider archetype basically 'need' the same thing to prosper (faith, mortals changing their lives to serve the divine, mortal life energies, whatever). The difference then between Good and Evil would not be that Good has needs that are easier to fill without hurting people, but that Good finds way to fill those needs that actually helps people in the process due to their particular circumstance. So you could even have a level-draining Good outsider but who also can heal all of the person's other illnesses, injuries, and infirmities through the process they use to take that level, and can set the DC to prevent it being permanent as low as they want. So you have a 'Good succubus' who goes through the world and leaves people drained but cured of plague or blindness or missing a leg - not draining them because they want to, but with their full knowledge and because its a necessary both for the miracle and for the 'Good succubus' to survive.

toapat
2014-04-11, 05:08 PM
With the number of Aasimar I see running around, I imagine the standard angels are already doing a good enough job of seducing mortals in their downtime.

Making a specialized angel for that is kind of redundant: Angels already appear as idealized beautiful humans, have charisma out the wazoo, and (judging by the various templates which indicate celestial heritage) are willing to bang just about anything.

Aasimar have progenitors somewhere down the line with the Half-Celestial template.

Same goes for Teiflings, but with the Half-Fiend template somewhere in their ancestry. (Fey'Ri are the exception)

there should be more variant Aasimar and definitely needs to be a Being of romance somewhere in the arsenal of good, otherwise there really isnt an explaination asto why the intelligent populous of the material realms are still Generally neutral, as a brothel of succubi could theoretically saturate enough Half-Fiends into society in 1500 years (100 human generations) to completely quash any good.

The Oni
2014-04-11, 05:15 PM
This legend works so well because it is very clear on that the women actually want to contact a selkie, and has none of the "rape is seduction" bull**** that you get in Greek mythology.

Yeeeeeeeeeeah...As a big fan of Greek myth, I find that when trying to determine how relationships and human interaction ought to work, it's a good idea to think, "What would Zeus do?" and do the exact freaking opposite.


Not everyone likes sex, so any positive effects your newly invented creature has on mortals (reverse energy drain, or whatever) should be doable via a hug or even just a kind smile. Otherwise people would feel pressured into having sex, and that would make it rapey, and thus evil, and you don't want that.

Well, I don't think succubi can give you evil perks (or gain them) with just a pat on the back, so that wouldn't very well be a "Good equivalent" of succubi. The sex (or at least sexy) part is important here.

That said, I find the mental image of a glorious, shining, statuesque angel-bishonen chiseled from solid marble sitting next to a sad mortal lady and listening intently (if awkwardly) to her problems to be hilarious.

Waker
2014-04-11, 05:22 PM
This is far too fun.

Plus, what I first thought of when I read the thread title was a succubus feeding off platonic affection. A platonic demon rather than a sexual celestial.

You're welcome. Good to see someone appreciating my wordplay.

A succubus/incubus feeding off of platonic affection would be kinda odd, since it wouldn't be evil enough. Now maybe if they feed off the frustration of someone stuck in the friendzone...


That said, I find the mental image of a glorious, shining, statuesque angel-bishonen chiseled from solid marble sitting next to a sad mortal lady and listening intently (if awkwardly) to her problems to be hilarious.
"Tell me about your day."

NichG
2014-04-11, 05:45 PM
You're welcome. Good to see someone appreciating my wordplay.

A succubus/incubus feeding off of platonic affection would be kinda odd, since it wouldn't be evil enough. Now maybe if they feed off the frustration of someone stuck in the friendzone...


It'd make sense for an Erinyes to feed off of cruelty committed in the name of prudishness though, or to seek to create the irony of unnecessary tensions - all the sets of reasons that the classic two star-crossed lovers can't be together.

Eshkigal
2014-04-11, 05:45 PM
Hey, we mix mythology a lot in these games as is. Why not use the idea of Valkyries for this? Agents of gods who guide heroes to their final rewards, potential mothers of heroes, and they reflect the Chaotic aspect easily enough. Einherjar would make a plausible male version.

Also, the issue with succubi and incubi are that they're the corruption of desires and lusts. They tempt, they drag you in, they are not just tools of sex but rather warnings about letting desires rule you. Just happens that sex is a really easy desire to manipulate with high charisma. However, their talents can be lent elsewhere-imagine them as the salesmen of anything you can dream of, the people who offer sheer untold wealth, power, fame.

Doorhandle
2014-04-11, 06:28 PM
Also, the issue with succubi and incubi are that they're the corruption of desires and lusts. They tempt, they drag you in, they are not just tools of sex but rather warnings about letting desires rule you. Just happens that sex is a really easy desire to manipulate with high charisma. However, their talents can be lent elsewhere-imagine them as the salesmen of anything you can dream of, the people who offer sheer untold wealth, power, fame.

Yes. This. Very much this.

...is it wrong that when I first heard this topic my first thought was "Demon that tears people's bits off" and not "Chaotic-good succubus equivalent?"

toapat
2014-04-11, 06:30 PM
...is it wrong that when I first heard this topic my first thought was "Demon that tears people's bits off" and not "Chaotic-good succubus equivalent?"

somewhat, but moreso because that wouldnt really make this demon any different from every other published demon that isnt a sucubus

The Oni
2014-04-11, 07:05 PM
However, their talents can be lent elsewhere-imagine them as the salesmen of anything you can dream of, the people who offer sheer untold wealth, power, fame.

If I recall, while the glabrezu isn't nearly as pretty, their 20-something Charisma scores are specifically because this is what they do, effectively selling lust for power/lust/achievement/etc. - whatever the person wants, as long as it's not sex. They're explicitly contrasted with the succubi in the MM. I'd bet the only reason we don't see succubus salespeople is because the glabrezu already tricked them into a contract with a non-compete clause.

Vrock_Summoner
2014-04-11, 07:11 PM
Now maybe if they feed off the frustration of someone stuck in the friendzone...

Oh my god. Finally, the source of infinite power I've been searching for!

The Grue
2014-04-11, 09:49 PM
The thought occurred: We aren't living in Victorian times anymore, and maybe it's time to stop thinking of sex as the ultimate weapon of evil.

We have succubi, who have powers specifically intended to seduce mortals for evil purposes, either to drain them dead or lure them to evil.

How about the opposite end of the spectrum? How about a type of Celestials who walk among mortals in disguise with a sort of hippie-ish universal love attitude, using physical affection to draw people to them and bring out their better nature? A brief fling with an angel could be something that would lift the spirits of a despairing lost soul, or the angel could reverse the energy drain thing and breathe health and vigor into their partner.

What do you think? I'm not planning on using this in a campaign but D&D includes evil sex monsters I feel there should be an opposite, if only to not portray sex as inherently bad.

I believe you are describing Neil Gaiman's treatment of the Muses. Let me dig out my Sandman anthologies and find the issue in question...

Sith_Happens
2014-04-12, 01:59 AM
if I remember there was some write up somewhere, I think on the homebrew forum about this chaotic good succubus-angel thing that was apart of this fleshing out of the chaotic good planes or something, that was what you are talking about? I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I'm pretty sure its somewhere...

Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?73139-An-Hour-with-Her-is-an-Hour-in-Heaven-Monster), to be exact.


If I recall, while the glabrezu isn't nearly as pretty, their 20-something Charisma scores are specifically because this is what they do, effectively selling lust for power/lust/achievement/etc. - whatever the person wants, as long as it's not sex.

Unless you're a particularly lucky Drow priestess, at least.:smallwink::smalleek:

Lord Raziere
2014-04-12, 05:01 AM
Right here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?73139-An-Hour-with-Her-is-an-Hour-in-Heaven-Monster), to be exact.


No, it was apart of a larger thread, with more than just that detailed. it was like, apart of a thread that was detailing all sorts of things that could populate CG heaven or something, but I can't remember it.

it seems pretty close though, what with the restorative touch and all.

Frozen_Feet
2014-04-12, 05:44 AM
What you're looking in this thread is not the logical opposite, it's the logical inverse.

A logical opposite would be an angel which basically removes all carnal desires from you in order to inspire you in a life of chastity and enlightment. Which is... most of them already.

Scots Dragon
2014-04-12, 06:15 AM
A logical opposite would be an angel which basically removes all carnal desires from you in order to inspire you in a life of chastity and enlightment. Which is... most of them already.

*quick glance at the half-celestial, the aasimar, the celestial-based sorcerer bloodlines, and even the celestial bloodline from Unearthed Arcana*

Somehow that doesn't seem to hold water. And I suppose what someone said earlier kind of holds up; it's more of a majority of celestial beings (regardless of position on the law-chaos axis), that demonstrate the required traits to be a 'good succubus'. None of those beings are required to be chaste, and many of them are in fact already heavily-beautiful and preternaturally attractive, with insane charisma scores.

Waker
2014-04-12, 07:17 AM
A logical opposite would be an angel which basically removes all carnal desires from you in order to inspire you in a life of chastity and enlightment. Which is... most of them already.
It's not that the Angel's are against the idea of sex. The reason they don't engage in premarital hanky-panky more often is that so many would-be partners chat them up with the opening line "Honey, did you fall from Heaven?"

Jeivar
2014-04-12, 07:50 AM
What you're looking in this thread is not the logical opposite, it's the logical inverse.

A logical opposite would be an angel which basically removes all carnal desires from you in order to inspire you in a life of chastity and enlightment.

Well, or a male angel who is constantly getting molested by horny mortal women.


It's not that the Angel's are against the idea of sex. The reason they don't engage in premarital hanky-panky more often is that so many would-be partners chat them up with the opening line "Honey, did you fall from Heaven?"

Heh. :smallsmile:
"Ugghh, YES. YES. I DID fall from Heaven. Do you know how many times I've heard that?!"

TriForce
2014-04-12, 08:04 AM
funny enough, my first tought when reading the title was a demon/devil that used the whole "sex is evil" thing to his/her own advantage. scaring and manipulating people in being so afraid of intimacy that they cant actually love any more

Ravens_cry
2014-04-12, 10:45 AM
Wouldn't the logical opposite be some prudish Celestial coming into your room at night to tell you not to touch yourself?

toapat
2014-04-12, 11:02 AM
Wouldn't the logical opposite be some prudish Celestial coming into your room at night to tell you not to touch yourself?

no, because thats the actual angels when they are on the material plane

logically, there should be something to stop or counterbalance a demonic breeding program on the material plane, otherwise there really wouldnt be a logical reason asto why the entire plane hasnt been subsumed into one of the Hell dimensions.

Mewtarthio
2014-04-12, 11:06 AM
What you're looking in this thread is not the logical opposite, it's the logical inverse.

A logical opposite would be an angel which basically removes all carnal desires from you in order to inspire you in a life of chastity and enlightment.

...by giving you such incredible sex that, from that moment on, your only reaction to all the fleshly temptations of Hell is "Meh, I've seen better."

Ravens_cry
2014-04-12, 11:07 AM
no, because thats the actual angels when they are on the material plane

logically, there should be something to stop or counterbalance a demonic breeding program on the material plane, otherwise there really wouldnt be a logical reason asto why the entire plane hasnt been subsumed into one of the Hell dimensions.
Well, all the Aasimar, Celestial and half-Celestial template critters run around point to some kind of angelic breeding program. It's just less official.

Somebloke
2014-04-12, 11:29 AM
I think the Kushiel fantasy series explore the whole 'Divine positive sexuality' thing quite well- the 'gods' of the series are Angels that willingly exile themselves to Earth and spread the 'ethical slut' trope with the locals.

I could see a reverse succubus who uses sex as a way of bettering the lives and characters of people around them- trying to bring out the best in people, playing matchmaker and spreading pleasure the same way a lillend promotes art. Sort of like a R-rated version of Mary Poppins (without the kids obviously).

A Tad Insane
2014-04-12, 11:40 AM
Don't quote me on this, but I think someone told me once there was a... paladin class of some sort who had the ability to slowly turn someone to good by touching them, and had something sexual on their skill list. It was probably homebrew, though

Frozen_Feet
2014-04-12, 12:42 PM
Nah, that was just my Paladin/Sacred Prostitute character.

BTW, Book of Erotic Fantasy has the spell Blessed Seed, which makes a child into a half-celestial. So no need for angels to get down and dirty themselves. (It also has the Fiendish Seed, making the child into half-fiend.)

Lord Raziere
2014-04-12, 12:48 PM
Now I'm imagining what the offspring's relationship would be with their angelic mothers...

I mean the angel in question would be eternally young, saintlike, and probably has had a lot of sex with a lot of people. I mean sure, they'd probably try to be good mothers, but I'm guessing the offspring would be embarrassed of them on some level. I mean.....can you imagine the kind of conversations that would occur? just.....awkward.....

The Oni
2014-04-12, 01:10 PM
Now I'm imagining what the offspring's relationship would be with their angelic mothers...

I mean the angel in question would be eternally young, saintlike, and probably has had a lot of sex with a lot of people. I mean sure, they'd probably try to be good mothers, but I'm guessing the offspring would be embarrassed of them on some level. I mean.....can you imagine the kind of conversations that would occur? just.....awkward.....

Angel Mom: *dressed all snazzy* "Well, I'm off to the Material plane to see your fathers."
Elf Kid: "The one in Kyonin?"
Human Kid: "The one in Magnimar?"
Angel Mom: "...Yes, them too."

More importantly, if they do keep in touch with all of their partners, what happens when one of them gets too possessive? Overly Attached Paladin Girlfriend sounds like an excellent recipe for falling so hard you leave a crater in the planet.

Dimers
2014-04-12, 01:22 PM
Just wanted to mention the Energy Charge ability in the MM3 glossary, as an opposite to succubus Energy Drain.

Lord Raziere
2014-04-12, 01:38 PM
More importantly, if they do keep in touch with all of their partners, what happens when one of them gets too possessive? Overly Attached Paladin Girlfriend sounds like an excellent recipe for falling so hard you leave a crater in the planet.

Welcome to why the ancients considered chastity a virtue: you sleep around too much, that causes jealousy, which leads to fights, which leads to things like that.

ngilop
2014-04-12, 01:42 PM
The thought occurred: We aren't living in Victorian times anymore, and maybe it's time to stop thinking of sex as the ultimate weapon of evil.

We have succubi, who have powers specifically intended to seduce mortals for evil purposes, either to drain them dead or lure them to evil.

How about the opposite end of the spectrum? How about a type of Celestials who walk among mortals in disguise with a sort of hippie-ish universal love attitude, using physical affection to draw people to them and bring out their better nature? A brief fling with an angel could be something that would lift the spirits of a despairing lost soul, or the angel could reverse the energy drain thing and breathe health and vigor into their partner.

What do you think? I'm not planning on using this in a campaign but D&D includes evil sex monsters I feel there should be an opposite, if only to not portray sex as inherently bad.

Except you got it wrong. its not sex they are portraying its pure lust. Easy, too easy actually, to confuse the two in the modern age.

and I do not know what book exactly it was in but 2nd ed DID have CG celestials that were basically anti-succubi.

toapat
2014-04-12, 01:55 PM
Don't quote me on this, but I think someone told me once there was a... paladin class of some sort who had the ability to slowly turn someone to good by touching them, and had something sexual on their skill list. It was probably homebrew, though

Silverhaired Knight of Eilistraee PrC, its from dragon, and technically the capstone doesnt need to be used with sex but its a minute per hit die of contact. Its manditory CG though so only Paladins of freedom can take it


More importantly, if they do keep in touch with all of their partners, what happens when one of them gets too possessive? Overly Attached Paladin Girlfriend sounds like an excellent recipe for falling so hard you leave a crater in the planet.

just trying to imagine is really difficult. like maybe the Paladin pays for a wizard to use planar binding (which i see the paladin just getting a slap)? like, a LG paladin would fall before ever doing anything where as a CG paladin is supposed to be more casual.

The Oni
2014-04-12, 02:17 PM
just trying to imagine is really difficult. like maybe the Paladin pays for a wizard to use planar binding (which i see the paladin just getting a slap)? like, a LG paladin would fall before ever doing anything where as a CG paladin is supposed to be more casual.

Depends on whether the Paladin will take no for an answer. If it starts with Planar Binding and moves on to Mind Control, it definitely ends with several alignment checks. I mean, this is a being who's supposed to be the embodiment of healthy, loving, Good-aligned guilt-free sex (and by Pelor, would you look at that CHA modifier); I would guess that a certain type of individual would be prone to obsession (and paladins are nothing if not prone to obsession).

I mean, sure, it's not gonna happen to EVERYONE, but it's gonna happen to at least one. Depending on the Noblebright/Grimdark scale in your world, I suppose.

Dimers
2014-04-12, 02:40 PM
@ jealousy issue: You could play it the way Barry Hughart does in Bridge of Birds, where the various lovers are not jealous of each other because they are all effectively worshipping the same entity or deific principle. Worshippers don't tell each other, "Piss off, you can't worship my goddess!" Rather, they find joy in the overflowing love they both find.

Rephath
2014-04-12, 02:51 PM
The logical opposite of succubi and incubi already exists. But before I explain what those opposites are, I need to explain what sex is.

First, the traditional Christian view of sex isn't that it's dirty but that it's holy and special and sacred. Sex is a combining of two people into one unit, a meeting of not only bodies but souls. Sex is an incredibly intimate act. It's a baring of who you are, a complete lowering of your defenses, and a complete acceptance of the other person. Think of the level of closeness you'd have to have to let someone else stick their finger in your nose without it being incredibly awkward. Then multiply it by a thousand.

Because sex is so precious, Christians have encouraged others to incredibly careful about how we go about having it. We pledge ourselves to be totally committed to marriage, holding nothing back, being totally available for the welfare of our beloved regardless of personal cost. This produces the best sex, and anything else is a cheap imitation that not only leaves you feeling something's missing if you get a knockoff, it'll ruin your ability to have the real thing later in life if you do get married.

Succibi and incubi don't use sex as a weapon. They use perversion as a weapon against pure sex.

So if sex is so wonderful, what's the being from Christian mythology that would grant it? The cherub/cupid. Yes, I know that borrows a lot from Greek mythology and is found nowhere in the Bible, but it's found in the same culture that succubi and incubi our found (also not in the Bible). A shot from the love bow and the two are inspired to great acts of love, including eventually sex.

The Oni
2014-04-12, 02:57 PM
(ignore this)

Eldan
2014-04-12, 03:51 PM
So, just wondering. Where do people the "Angels are prudes" idea get from? These aren't Christian angels. They are the angels of the D&D gods. And though sexual mores are pretty much never discussed in D&D as far as I'm aware, these are still pantheistic and very varied divinities and I can't imagine they are all opposed to hanky-panky.

The Oni
2014-04-12, 04:10 PM
I think it's because the source material for angels is Judeo-Christianity, which has all those connotations - whereas Archons/Azatas/Agathions etc. don't.

toapat
2014-04-12, 04:15 PM
also, there is no material supported celestial outreach program like how there is a fiendish outreach program

Sith_Happens
2014-04-12, 08:35 PM
It's not that the Angel's are against the idea of sex. The reason they don't engage in premarital hanky-panky more often is that so many would-be partners chat them up with the opening line "Honey, did you fall from Heaven?"

"Do you know who did fall from Heaven? Asmodeus. So no, and please find someone else to flirt with."


Well, or a male angel who is constantly getting molested by horny mortal women.

So basically the opposite of a succubus is equivalent to the inverse of a light novel protagonist.:smalltongue:

Eldan
2014-04-13, 07:15 AM
I think it's because the source material for angels is Judeo-Christianity, which has all those connotations - whereas Archons/Azatas/Agathions etc. don't.

I'm trying not to get into real-world religion, but Angels aren't exactly cellibate in the old testament. Even more so in older sources and the apocrypha.

Themrys
2014-04-13, 09:02 AM
Wouldn't the logical opposite be some prudish Celestial coming into your room at night to tell you not to touch yourself?

Depends ... that would be a creature that promotes the idea that chastity is evil.

I mean, the whole "breaking into your house at night and molesting you in your sleep" thing is what makes succubi evil. If it was "Knocking at your door, politely offering you consensual sex, and taking no for an answer", succubi wouldn't be very scary, would they?

So, it all depends on what you consider the opposite of a succubus to be. If you turn everything about them into the opposite, it would be an ugly (or beautiful, depending on whether you go after the myth or the depiction in D&D), prudish Celestial who politely asks whether you want some information about the advantages of chastity, and goes away if you ask to be left alone.

The Oni
2014-04-13, 09:35 AM
Depends ... that would be a creature that promotes the idea that chastity is evil.

I mean, the whole "breaking into your house at night and molesting you in your sleep" thing is what makes succubi evil. If it was "Knocking at your door, politely offering you consensual sex, and taking no for an answer", succubi wouldn't be very scary, would they?

Well, yeah, but they do also do things like lie in wait in dungeons and offer to screw you in an effort to distract you from a mission or ambush you with their friends/associates. That's also pretty evil (because it makes you deathly afraid of beautiful women chained up in dungeons!).

That said, they're not all bad. Succubi/incubi in NetHack are generally friendly and usually give you buffs when you sleep with them. They magic all your clothes off of you, which is apparently useful if you're wearing cursed stuff, but they don't steal anything.

Themrys
2014-04-13, 10:25 AM
Well, yeah, but they do also do things like lie in wait in dungeons and offer to screw you in an effort to distract you from a mission or ambush you with their friends/associates. That's also pretty evil (because it makes you deathly afraid of beautiful women chained up in dungeons!).

That said, they're not all bad. Succubi/incubi in NetHack are generally friendly and usually give you buffs when you sleep with them. They magic all your clothes off of you, which is apparently useful if you're wearing cursed stuff, but they don't steal anything.

I was using the original definition, in which all they do is raping men in their sleep, then shapeshifting into men to rape women in their sleep, thereby producing demonic offspring.

The Oni
2014-04-13, 10:58 AM
I was using the original definition, in which all they do is raping men in their sleep, then shapeshifting into men to rape women in their sleep, thereby producing demonic offspring.

Right. Which IS evil, but doesn't make sense at all since stealing a man's seed and using it in a woman would just produce normal human children; clearly demons don't take biology in high school.

The Oni
2014-04-13, 11:03 AM
I'm trying not to get into real-world religion, but Angels aren't exactly celibate in the old testament. Even more so in older sources and the apocrypha.

True, but if I recall, the Nephilim were the angels who were interbreeding with mortals in most versions of the story, and the Nephilim are most often interpreted as fallen angels, if angels at all. If you've been kicked out already, no reason not to have a little fun I suppose.

Slipperychicken
2014-04-13, 11:43 AM
Right. Which IS evil, but doesn't make sense at all since stealing a man's seed and using it in a woman would just produce normal human children; clearly demons don't take biology in high school.

Maybe they combine it with their own fiendish DNA, such that it would produce demonic traits, but still be viable with humanoid eggs?

toapat
2014-04-13, 11:45 AM
True, but if I recall, the Nephilim were the angels who were interbreeding with mortals in most versions of the story, and the Nephilim are most often interpreted as fallen angels, if angels at all. If you've been kicked out already, no reason not to have a little fun I suppose.

Nephalim were half-Celestials, not the fallen angels. No matter what though its still religion which always had some rediculous theories or stories that dont make sense in context, let alone out. (why are the spawn of angels who were evicted from heaven evil?)

Axiomatic
2014-04-13, 12:57 PM
That said, I find the mental image of a glorious, shining, statuesque angel-bishonen chiseled from solid marble sitting next to a sad mortal lady and listening intently (if awkwardly) to her problems to be hilarious.

The female version sits you down on the porch, puts a six-pack of beers between you, and then drinks quietly until you're ready to talk.

toapat
2014-04-13, 01:30 PM
The female version sits you down on the porch, puts a six-pack of beers between you, and then drinks quietly until you're ready to talk.

the 6 pack of beer is for her, she brings a cask of bourbon for the speaker

Eldan
2014-04-13, 01:32 PM
True, but if I recall, the Nephilim were the angels who were interbreeding with mortals in most versions of the story, and the Nephilim are most often interpreted as fallen angels, if angels at all. If you've been kicked out already, no reason not to have a little fun I suppose.

Actually, I remember one part that even made it into the standard bible. But only out of context. A child is born with fair hair and the father accused the mother of having had intercourse with angels.


Right. Which IS evil, but doesn't make sense at all since stealing a man's seed and using it in a woman would just produce normal human children; clearly demons don't take biology in high school.

Nope, that's how it works. And it produces demons, in mythology.

D&D science clearly has nothing to do with real world science. The four elements and the afterlife are confirmed, after all.
I quite like taking it a step further: children's traits come from "blood", they grow from small men sitting inside sperm. Since exposure to evil can change children already (see: Tieflings, which don't have to come from demonic ancestors, but can also come from normal humans living on evil planes), very clearly being stored inside a Succubus twists the spermatozoa into being evil. I'd like to think of them as being black and spikey.

Bohandas
2016-03-07, 01:05 AM
How about a bonobo themed guardianal?

digiman619
2016-03-08, 07:34 AM
The entire choir of angels called grigori were famous for their non-chastity.

TheTeaMustFlow
2016-03-08, 10:29 AM
The entire choir of angels called grigori were famous for their non-chastity.

And their apocryphalness.

Not to mention their
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v716/n0z3k1ll3r/ThreadNecromancy.jpg

digiman619
2016-03-08, 06:18 PM
And their apocryphalness.

Not to mention their
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v716/n0z3k1ll3r/ThreadNecromancy.jpg

Hey, it was on the front page when I found it. Blame the guy ahead of me.