Most broken level 5 please

[jordan.k93]

My campaign is slowly turning into a powergaming fest.

Just to give an example, someone's re rolling their character into a Half-Minotaur 1 Barbarian, 1 Paladin, 1 Fighter (+1LA apparently) with a 20ft reach on a large spiked chain and a 20 AC

I'm a 5th Level Swashbuckler... yeah, I didn't get the memo huh?

I've argued, whined, and coerced, but there seems to be no alternative.

So I've chosen the nuclear option, ask a forum, because I'm not all to good at power gaming to be perfectly honest... I was thinking Gnome Illusionist, but past that I don't know.

We're level 4/5, and using 3d6 for attributes (Not rolled yet), no Tome of Battle, but everything else is good to go.

Many thanks!

[Snowbluff]

Play a Storm Wizard. Born of Three Thunders with Mark of the Dauntless. Kauper's Quickblast for a swift action stun. Spend your time being a wizard.

Druid 5. Luminous Armor, an Exalted Companion, and grab a strong wildshape.

Play a Warshaper, and have 100+ attacks.

Punch your DM in the kidneys for allowing that build but banning ToB.

Play a Master of Shrouds. Cleric 2/ Dread Necro1/Master of Shrouds2. Summon incorporeal creatures to wreck the game. Rebuke their spawn. Grab some devotion feats.

[Socksy]

Most broken level 5 build, you say? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29)

[jordan.k93]

Play a Storm Wizard. Born of Three Thunders with Mark of the Dauntless. Kauper's Quickblast for a swift action stun. Spend your time being a wizard.

Druid 5. Luminous Armor, an Exalted Companion, and grab a strong wildshape.

Play a Warshaper, and have 100+ attacks.

Punch your DM in the kidneys for allowing that build but banning ToB.

Play a Master of Shrouds. Cleric 2/ Dread Necro1/Master of Shrouds2. Summon incorporeal creatures to wreck the game. Rebuke their spawn. Grab some devotion feats.

I will look into Storm Wizard...

Regarding Druid, Augmented Summoning Feat and Spell Focus Conjuration, how's that sound?


Most broken level 5 build, you say? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29)

I've heard of PunPun, but if I can't (Or don't have the desire to) understand such maddness I can't very well rock up to the table, throw down a copy of the character sheet[s] and say, "I win, but don't have clue what my Total Attack Bonus is without a few hours of calculations"

[Snowbluff]

Regarding Druid, Augmented Summoning Feat and Spell Focus Conjuration, how's that sound?
Yeah, those would be good options. I personally prefer to buff my AnC with my feats.

[ericgrau]

Just to give an example, someone's re rolling their character into a Half-Minotaur 1 Barbarian, 1 Paladin, 1 Fighter (+1LA apparently) with a 20ft reach on a large spiked chain and a 20 AC

I'm a 5th Level Swashbuckler... yeah, I didn't get the memo huh?

...

So I've chosen the nuclear option, ask a forum, because I'm not all to good at power gaming to be perfectly honest... I was thinking Gnome Illusionist, but past that I don't know.
And it didn't take long for you to get a god in response. Let's try the bazooka option instead of the nuclear option. if you come in here asking to play a "normal" gnome illusionist you'll get something on par with a half-minotaur.

The first thing with an illusionist is to look up the illusion rules under the magic section (before the spell lists) and also talk to your DM. A lot of what happens with illusions are up to him, so you need to make sure it's worthwhile before diving in. Or if fake illusions aren't good enough then there's always shadowcraft mage for real "illusions".

[sakuuya]

My campaign is slowly turning into a powergaming fest.

Just to give an example, someone's re rolling their character into a Half-Minotaur 1 Barbarian, 1 Paladin, 1 Fighter (+1LA apparently) with a 20ft reach on a large spiked chain and a 20 AC

I'm a 5th Level Swashbuckler... yeah, I didn't get the memo huh?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like your group is that great at optimization, either. Yeah, thehalf-minotaur (with a weird random Paladin level for some reason) will outclass your Swashbuckler in combat. Spiked chain lockdown is a good trick, but not a gamebreaking one if your DM knows what s/he's doing. And honestly, making a character just to "beat" the other players doesn't seem like it'll be fun for anyone.

That said, pretty much any caster class will be able to shine. I'd actually recommend trying a Beguiler (from PHBII). It's not particularly power-gamey, but it excels in different (and, IMO, more useful) ways than big dumb fighters do, which means that you can play one alongside the half-minotaur without either player ending up feeling useless.

[Snowbluff]

Beguiler is cool.

If you want to be really obnoxious, you would play an Half Minotaur Half Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Having a 20ft reach is a nice gimmick, not powergaming. The only problem i see is that swashbucklers suck. Getting out the campaign smashers in response seems a little over the top to me.
You can certainly play a gnome illusionist but that's pretty much enough by itself. You have a fairly effective melee character already, any caster will be a good contribution without getting into the gamebreaking combos.

Not to say you can't play a swashbuckler but it's a simple fact that the class pretty much sucks. You can make it work (somewhat) with optimization but expecting the other players to restrict themselves to the level of an unoptimized swashbuckler is pretty unreasonable imo.

[Inevitability]

I like anthropomorpic octopi better myself. Wielding three two-handed weapons, all of which get this sweet, sweet 1.5 strength to damage? Sweet. It even comes with a racial strength bonus.

[jordan.k93]

Having a 20ft reach is a nice gimmick, not powergaming. The only problem i see is that swashbucklers suck. Getting out the campaign smashers in response seems a little over the top to me.
You can certainly play a gnome illusionist but that's pretty much enough by itself. You have a fairly effective melee character already, any caster will be a good contribution without getting into the gamebreaking combos.

Not to say you can't play a swashbuckler but it's a simple fact that the class pretty much sucks. You can make it work (somewhat) with optimization but expecting the other players to restrict themselves to the level of an unoptimized swashbuckler is pretty unreasonable imo.

No one was optimised, because that's the sort of game we had going

But everything changed...

When the Fire Nation attacked.

[Red Fel]

Piggybacking off the Druid idea, with slightly less nuclear capabilities, what about Shifter Druid? Take the first two racial substitution levels (skip the third, it's rubbish), and watch as the optimizers at the table chuckle because Shifter feats are crap.

Then PrC into Moonspeaker and dominate everything.

Have every feat ever count as a Shifter feat, gain additional Wild Shape progression and full casting progression, pick up DR and immunity, and grab some awesome summoning spells and augments. Want to melee? Moonspeaker can do that. Want to summon? Moonspeaker can do that. Want to cast spells? I did mention full progression. Enjoy your newfound power.

[sleepyphoenixx]

No one was optimised, because that's the sort of game we had going

But everything changed...

When the Fire Nation attacked.

Do you think coming to the next game session with a character designed to break the campaign will help anything?
You don't need to powergame. You just need to be effective. There is a difference.

Instead of asking for the most overpowered thing the forums can come up with i suggest this: Come up with a character concept that you like (and yes, swashbuckler is a playable concept. It's just not an effective class). Come up with a rough outline of your build, post it here and ask for feedback.

[Segev]

Elan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) with the Shaper Discipline. Specialize in Astral Constructs, and support. Make sure to pick up Share Pain and Vigor; you will use Vigor and share it with your Psicrystal, giving you and it (at 5th level) 25 temporary hp each, and then you'll use Share Pain on your psicrystal to make it take half the damage you take. This is effectively +50 hp for 8 power points.

Complete Psionics adds a feat called Linked Power that lets you link one power to another so that one activates on the round you pay for both of them, and the other activates the following round at no action cost to you. Use this with Vigor+Share Pain so you only need spend one action on it.

And if you really want to get silly, look at Synchronicity (level 1 psion power in Complete Psionic) and consider it used in conjunction with Linked Power. You blow the action economy right out of the water.

[jordan.k93]

Do you think coming to the next game session with a character designed to break the campaign will help anything?
You don't need to powergame. You just need to be effective. There is a difference.

Instead of asking for the most overpowered thing the forums can come up with i suggest this: Come up with a character concept that you like (and yes, swashbuckler is a playable concept. It's just not an effective class). Come up with a rough outline of your build, post it here and ask for feedback.

*Rage Brewing*

Yes, I am aware how to brew a character, thanks for that, however my character was inline if not above the party till this fellow shows up, you don't have all the information and you're making grand assumptions, and I feel like I'm being talked down to, STAHP.

Maybe the rest of the party are warriors and adepts? Who knows?

[toapat]

When the Fire Nation attacked.

lemme guess

Party of 6, attacked by 30 CR3 warriors, handily trounced the entire encounter?

If so, then neither you nor the DM should be taking this route. the DM wanted to see upcoming threats, you seem to be asking for those threats.

From what ive learned reading this forum, arms racing is never good or healthy. Someone needs to coup-de-gras the issues so the campaign can return to the cloud layer it belongs at

[Red Fel]

lemme guess

Party of 6, attacked by 30 CR3 warriors, handily trounced the entire encounter?

If so, then neither you nor the DM should be taking this route. the DM wanted to see upcoming threats, you seem to be asking for those threats.

From what ive learned reading this forum, arms racing is never good or healthy. Someone needs to coup-de-gras the issues so the campaign can return to the cloud layer it belongs at

Nah, I'm guessing party of three, consisting of one melee, one semi-caster, and one homebrew with a massive level adjustment, attacked by a party of thirty-some-odd level 1 mooks and a single NPC who's clearly supposed to be the BBEG, then the DM calls fiat and declares that the homebrew PC has to surrender, which is just cheap railroading if you ask me.

[DarkSonic1337]

*Rage Brewing*

Yes, I am aware how to brew a character, thanks for that, however my character was inline if not above the party till this fellow shows up, you don't have all the information and you're making grand assumptions, and I feel like I'm being talked down to, STAHP.

Maybe the rest of the party are warriors and adepts? Who knows?

Then would you be so kind as to inform us about the make up of your party? And what was the party makeup before this "power gamer" showed up?

Also about the general tactics the players use, the general tactics the DM uses, and the availability of magic (both magic items and magic services)?

Have you talked to the "power gamer" in question about your concerns? I use quotes because his build is...well frankly not that powerful. It's a strong melee damage build, and reach control is pretty cool, but he's not exactly aiming for the pinnacle of power. He's just good at his two tricks. Is he really just a **** trying to ruin your fun, or does he just want to be GOOD at killing things with a cool chain?

INTENTIONALLY RUINING A CAMPAIGN is almost never a good idea, which is why you're getting these chastising responses. Setting out to ruin other people's fun (even if done in retaliation to another's wrong doing) is just immature.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Silverbrow Human Wizard (Diviner) 5, two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm), his feats were originally Scribe Scroll, Snowcasting, Fell Drain Spell, Flash Frost Spell, Heighten Spell, Metamagic School Focus: Divination, and Sudden Widen Spell. He hired an NPC spellcaster to use Permanency at caster level 20 for 3,500 gp per standard fees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) on his Snowcast, Heightened (3rd), Flash Frost, Fell Drain, Sudden Widened, Metamagic Focus x3, Detect Magic spell. From now on you can spend a standard action to concentrate on that Detect Magic to create a 120-ft. cone that deals 6 cold damage to anyone in it, inflicts a negative level on anyone damaged by it, and covers the area in a layer of ice that forces balance checks vs falling prone, without allowing any saving throws or spell resistance.

After setting that up, he hired an NPC Psion to use Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on him for 905 gp at standard fees, plus 125 xp. This allows you to repick every one of those feats, as well as all your skill points and even which spells you chose to learn if using magic/psionics transparency (but the ones you already learned are still in your spellbook, you just double your number of free spells gained). You do not need to maintain the above list of feats to keep being able to use that deadly Detect Magic every round, as often as you want. You also retrained (PH2 chapter 8) to switch your specialization to Conjuration, swap your familiar for Abrupt Jaunt in PH2, use this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) from UA to get Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll, and traded your Wizard 5 feat for the Planning domain power per the CC ACF to get Extend Spell. Your new feats and skills should include prerequisites for whatever prestige class(es) you plan on taking, such as Incantatrix and/or Paragnostic Apostle. You can say you visited the Otyugh Hole in CS to get Iron Will for Incantatrix for 3,000 gp instead of spending a feat on it.

Later on you can get the Swift Concentration skill trick to concentrate on that as a swift action instead of a standard action, so you'll still be able to cast a spell every round while using that. Note that skill tricks can only be used 1/encounter, but if you maintain concentration on it for consecutive rounds it's still the first use of the skill trick unless you stop concentrating for some reason. Just be careful where you point it.

When you have more feats you may want to get another Psychic Reformation to set up a new one. You'll want to regain all of those same feats, plus Energy Substitution: Electric, Born of the Three Thunders, Fell Frighten Spell, Fell Weaken Spell, and possibly Explosive Spell. You'll want to Heighten it as high as possible for the most damage, and you'll need to get a new Permanency for it and another Psychic Reformation afterward.

[toapat]

Nah, I'm guessing party of three, consisting of one melee, one semi-caster, and one homebrew with a massive level adjustment, attacked by a party of thirty-some-odd level 1 mooks and a single NPC who's clearly supposed to be the BBEG, then the DM calls fiat and declares that the homebrew PC has to surrender, which is just cheap railroading if you ask me.

i brought that up because it seems like the DM asked about something like this yesterday.

[Red Fel]

i brought that up because it seems like the DM asked about something like this yesterday.

I brought it up because it's the first episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender.

[toapat]

I brought it up because it's the first episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender.

no, its a meme, that at the transition has a regimen of 25 soldiers on screen. and the question possed looks very much like this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340444-Most-OP-Level-4-character)

[CIDE]

Play a Warshaper, and have 100+ attacks.



Only if you and your DM are very lenient about what constitutes a "natural weapon" when reading through the monster manuals. I.E. Acid stigners, acid spit, touch attacks, etc.


Most broken level 5 build, you say? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29)

It was only a matter of time.




I've heard of PunPun, but if I can't (Or don't have the desire to) understand such maddness I can't very well rock up to the table, throw down a copy of the character sheet[s] and say, "I win, but don't have clue what my Total Attack Bonus is without a few hours of calculations"

Whatever you want it to be.


As for options to you OP a lot of people are giving you build ideas well beyond the current optimization level of the rest of your party. Not sure some of them were such a good idea. Not that they don't work but you probably shouldn't do to the half minotaur what he did to you. Even if your build allows you to do it.

That said...The Half-Minotaur is going to be nice for now. Lower levels and such. That's really about it.

[Yogibear41]

Well, since everyone else is giving you lots of OP builds I will attempt to take a different route. You started a swashbuckler so apparently that is what you want to play, so lets start with that for a base. But instead of just going strait swashbuckler lets toss something else in their with it so you have a few more options.

Swashbucklers get alot of damage from Int, and use Dex to hit with so those will be our primary to ability scores, not to mention Dex ups your AC, and Int gives you lots of other abilities such as extra skill points, and also governs things such as psion or wizard casting/powers.

So for level 5 lets say Swashbuckler3/wizard or psion2 your choice of course, not inherently OP at all really but will give you alot to work with down the road.

Finally lets toss in one last ingredient, the race of course! We need high dex, and high int, with a focus on finessable weapons, so we can add our int to damage with them.

Que These guys:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ssouth_gallery/84366.jpg

The beguilers a LA +0 race found in the Shining south book, offering -4 str, +6 Dex, and +2 Int with a small size and some racial bonuses to hide. Now comes the good part: 1 Bite, 2 Claws, and they can use their tails to wield light melee weapons and come with multiattack for free! Natural Weapons are finnessable! Which Means Int to damage with all those attacks! Ha zah!

Later Levels could look something like this:
1-3 Swashbuckler
4-7 Wizard
8-12 Abjurant champion
13-20 Eldritch Knigh or Knight Phantom

End up with 18 Bab and 16th level wizard casting at level 20, still far from Super OP, but is relatively simple to build, and should also be effective. At the end of the day you will be making 4 rapier (or light weapon of your choice) attacks, followed by 2 claws and a bite, all adding Int to damage.

Would also suggest taking feats or maybe a swordsage dip in order to qualify for the dex to damage feat with select weapons( you would have to use shortsword instead of rapier) but you said TOB if banned.

[Crow_Nightfeath]

Pun-Pun relies on your DM saying a god decides to give that creature some of it's power... I don't know about any of you, but I can never see a god even taking notice of a level 5. For all intensive purposes Pun-Pun is illegal. He is using something only NPCs are allowed to use, and those NPCs have to be ECL 30+ and an outsider.. As I stated before the only way he can get those abilities is a god giving some of it's power to the creature.
truthfully do you just take people's word for things about how powerful something is.. do you not actually go and do any of the research yourselves?

as for a broken level 5.. it really depends on how you want to break it. do you want a stat that is a lot higher than any other party member? do you want an AC that no one can hit? How about the ability to do 9d6 damage in a single attack (though only having that attack in the turn)? There are lots of ways of doing it, you've got to be a little more precise about what direction you want to take it.

[Coidzor]

No one was optimised, because that's the sort of game we had going

But everything changed...

When the Fire Nation attacked.

So what's everyone else playing now and what were they before?


Maybe the rest of the party are warriors and adepts? Who knows?

Well. You, the rest of the players in your group, and the DM really should know. That's why you're supposed to tell us. :smalltongue:


Pun-Pun relies on your DM saying a god decides to give that creature some of it's power... I don't know about any of you, but I can never see a god even taking notice of a level 5. For all intensive purposes Pun-Pun is illegal.

That's "all intents and purposes," actually.

Pun-Pun is Theoretical Optimization. He's not actually supposed to be used in any game, except for as a joke about the backstory of the setting or a slightly more witty version of the old DM line about rocks falling or otherwise functioning as a "No" button in game instead of things being handled at the more appropriate level of the table.

[John Longarrow]

jordan.k93,

Have you talked to the DM and the rest of the group about the uber-chain wielder?

If you are the only one who has an issue with this character, talk to the DM to see what can be done to move the spotlight around.
If everyone has an issue with this character, then the DM should fix the issue.

If you want just an over powered build, don't be surprised if your DM either disallows it or ups the challenge of things to the point both you and the minotaur loose. Balancing a game with wierd characters like that isn't easy. One bad night on the dice and its down.

[Zethex]

How about you tell us the whole story so that we can all try to give you honest advice without sounding condescending because of miscommunication?

Except if all you want is advice on how to pwn that dude for the audacity of bringing a minotaur with a spiked chain to a table of a merry band of low-op enjoyers and to teach your DM a lesson for allowing stuff like that.

As I said, I may be completely wrong, but this is what it looks like to me from reading the limited text on this thread.

[Tedective]

Two flaws at least.
Feats go as ordered...
w Summon Familiar
w Scribe Scroll
1 Heighten Spell
f Earth Sense
f Earth Spell
3 Spell Focus (Illusion)
5 Sanctum Spell
6 Arcane Disciple (Luck)
9 Arcane Thesis (Silent Image)

5 levels Wizard with Gnome Illusionist 1st level
4 levels Shadowcraft Mage
Specialize in Illusion, giving up Evocation, Conjuration, and Enchantment.

Prepare a Heightened (7), Earth, Sanctum Silent Image in a 5th level slot and burn it as a 10th level spell for a 9th level evocation spell on your wizard spell list (Miracle). This just enabled you to use any spell of 7th level or lower or cleric spell of 8th level or lower, from a 5th level wizard slot.

[Chadamantium]

What about a toolbox wizard? You would just have a solution for every situation but you're not overshadowing the other players. You're just limited to your ingenuity.

[Thanatosia]

cool Level 9 Miracle
While neat, what's the point of posting this to a thread asking for an optimized lv5 build? I don't think the DM is gonna allow him to be lv9 in a lv5 campaign just cuz you found a cute trick to break the campaign with it.

[Zombulian]

I brought it up because it's the first episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender.


no, its a meme, that at the transition has a regimen of 25 soldiers on screen. and the question possed looks very much like this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?340444-Most-OP-Level-4-character)

What do you mean no? You're both right.


Only if you and your DM are very lenient about what constitutes a "natural weapon" when reading through the monster manuals. I.E. Acid stigners, acid spit, touch attacks, etc.

Actually not really. There's no definite amount of tentacles a warshaper can have.


Anyway, actually pertaining to the OP, now maybe your group isn't used to combat ending quickly because of the high damage output or battlefield control that a strong (eh) chainer can bring to the table. What I've found to work well if you still want to shine next to someone doing better in combat than you while still not making an arms race, make someone to cover the bases he cannot. Make someone who can get people within range of your melee man, make someone who makes it even more dangerous to be far from your chain user, hell just make a buffer so that your melee man won't get dominated and destroy your party.