4e as Wargaming

[wayfare]

Hey All:

I am running a 3.5 game that is taking a break from the main action to put the PCs in the role of an army defending the main city from a series of guerilla attacks by a powerful enemy. I started looking up some wargaming rules, before it occurred to me that I might be able to use 4e combat mechanics to simulate wargaming.

Essentially, I would take the class chassis and strip out the daily powers so novaing is not a thing. What else would i have to do to make this functional? I am assuming more HP is needed, as this will be PC class on PC class combat and PCs tend to do more damage than PCs can take.

Any suggestions are welcome

--wayfare

[Rakaydos]

4E Monster vs monster is more balanced than 4E player vs Player. Every monster has an XP "point cost" people can use to build their armies. So just give everyone a Monster manual and an XP limit, and have fun!

[wayfare]

4E Monster vs monster is more balanced than 4E player vs Player. Every monster has an XP "point cost" people can use to build their armies. So just give everyone a Monster manual and an XP limit, and have fun!

Well, if we HAD to go with PC on PC, how would we do it?

[Tegu8788]

I've done PvP a number of times, and stripping dailies and boosting HP are just the start. I've seen near one-shots from simple encounter powers. 4E PCs are major glass-cannons. Lots of firepower, little relative defense. I would limit the PCs to level 2, no AP, no dailies, maybe no magic items, and maybe double HP.

Honestly, it doesn't work well. I had fun, but there was a respawn mechanic, and if a PC survived three rounds it was rare.


Can it be done? Yes.
Can it be done well? Yes.
Can it be done better than Monster vs Monster? Oh hell no.


Monsters are also much, much easier to run, being simpler even at higher levels. They can make better teams quickly using monster stats, and will have way more flexibility. It isn't hard to find monsters that mimic certain class abilities, and scaling a monster up or down is also really easy.

As a 4E PvPer, I support the NPC idea.

[GPuzzle]

4e is perfect for skirmishes - not sure for larger combats. Running a few encounters on MvM, and deciding the outcome in a zone-based system can be pretty cool, I believe.

[p.d0t]

You should be aiming for something approximating DOTA, where you have Heroes and creeps, if you want to do mass combat.

Have a few iconic "leader" monsters and a whole bunch of mooks. Personally I'd look to Axis&Allies for inspiration; mooks score a hit by rolling under their attack value and deal 1 HP worth of damage, so they can slaughter each other en masse but it's harder for them to take down a PC. You can make some melee and some ranged and some have higher attack values and some be flying etc. Whatever.

[GPuzzle]

Yeah, my group was trying to recreate DotA 2 in D&D.

We still haven't nailed it yet.

[wayfare]

I've done PvP a number of times, and stripping dailies and boosting HP are just the start. I've seen near one-shots from simple encounter powers. 4E PCs are major glass-cannons. Lots of firepower, little relative defense. I would limit the PCs to level 2, no AP, no dailies, maybe no magic items, and maybe double HP.

Honestly, it doesn't work well. I had fun, but there was a respawn mechanic, and if a PC survived three rounds it was rare.


Can it be done? Yes.
Can it be done well? Yes.
Can it be done better than Monster vs Monster? Oh hell no.


Monsters are also much, much easier to run, being simpler even at higher levels. They can make better teams quickly using monster stats, and will have way more flexibility. It isn't hard to find monsters that mimic certain class abilities, and scaling a monster up or down is also really easy.

As a 4E PvPer, I support the NPC idea.

Any threads you can link me to on the subject?

In terms of PCs, i was thinking:

HP Boost (Maybe double)
No Dailies
Level 1
No magic gear (most folks in the army are just grunts, even if they are grunt wizards)

[Tegu8788]

I can try to find them, they are all pretty old at this point.

But honestly, it's gonna be rocket tag. Whoever wins initiative pretty much wins the game, unless you have some serious terrain in there. PCs are not built to be army units.


Monsters are. Specifically, minions. They are simple, easy to run, and easy to throw a bunch out. I have a party of 6, and in a matched fight I threw 16 Lvl+1 minions at them.

In your first post you mentioned 3.5 being your standard game, so this may be a change you aren't aware of. PC classes are built completely differently from NPC. They do not intermix. They do not change. You do not apply a PC template to an NPC. PC classes are just for PCs. No sharing.

I can tell you want to use PC classes. I can tell you it can be done. But I am telling you it will not be as effective, or fun, as using monster stats. You want an army, use monsters. Try being brand new to the game and keeping track of more than two PCs, and it's gonna get complex real fast.

[wayfare]

I can try to find them, they are all pretty old at this point.

But honestly, it's gonna be rocket tag. Whoever wins initiative pretty much wins the game, unless you have some serious terrain in there. PCs are not built to be army units.


Monsters are. Specifically, minions. They are simple, easy to run, and easy to throw a bunch out. I have a party of 6, and in a matched fight I threw 16 Lvl+1 minions at them.

In your first post you mentioned 3.5 being your standard game, so this may be a change you aren't aware of. PC classes are built completely differently from NPC. They do not intermix. They do not change. You do not apply a PC template to an NPC. PC classes are just for PCs. No sharing.

I can tell you want to use PC classes. I can tell you it can be done. But I am telling you it will not be as effective, or fun, as using monster stats. You want an army, use monsters. Try being brand new to the game and keeping track of more than two PCs, and it's gonna get complex real fast.

Sorry, I wan't clear: could you link me to any resources on using monsters in this way?

I've played a bit of 4e but never DMed. I thought it handled on the mat tactical play a lot better than 3.5, hence why I wanted to use it.

Is it just a case of "filing off the serial numbers" as it were, and taking a monster and renaming it. Or is there a tool that would allow mt to make my own monsters?

[Nightgaun7]

Is it just a case of "filing off the serial numbers" as it were, and taking a monster and renaming it. Or is there a tool that would allow mt to make my own monsters?

You can do either; for creating your own monsters, an Insider account will let you use the Adventure tool which can edit existing monsters or create new ones.

[Tegu8788]

My bad. If you are willing to shill out a few bucks and get a single month subscription, you gain access to everything 4E as put out.

Each monster as a certain XP budget, with the idea that a certain number of PCs of X level should be facing a certain amount of danger. So, pick some number, and let your players build up to the budget. You may put in certain rules, to give some restrictions I'll cover later.

There are a few types of monsters. Artillery, Brute, Controller, Lurker, Skirmisher, Soldier. There are also Solos, Elites, Leaders, and Minion. The first batch are regular monsters, a lvl 1 monster worth 100 XP. The rest are variants.

Artillery: These are mortars. Idea at attacking at range, but has poor defenses. Backline guys. Squishy.

Brute: Simply put, these guys are beatsticks. Healthy and do good damage. Frontline. Great melee dudes.

Controller: These guys force their enemies to have no good choices. More complex, also backliners.

Lurker: Sneak in, do heavy damage, and stealth out, hide for a round, and repeat. Fragile. Best if someone else holds the attention.

Skirmisher: Somewhere between Brute and Lurker, this guy is frontline, dealing damage, but he doesn't want attention on him. This is a Rogue.

Soldier: High defenses, punishes enemies for attacking allies, melee guys. If anyone wants the attention more than the Brute, it's this guy.


Solos: This is a variant of any of the above. Instead of being 1-to-1, this guy is worth 5 monsters, and balanced accordingly. You may want to limit a certain number of these in your army. Just one is worth 500 XP at lvl 1.

Elites: Mid-way between solo and standard, you can slap this onto a regular monster, and effectively double it's strength. Mini-bosses. Dangerous, each one at lvl 1 is worth 200 XP. I'd allow a few of these.

Leaders: Also something you just slap on to the above categories, it basically grants a little bit of healing and/or enabling powers. Monster Cleric over here. No bonus for XP, so this is something you'd want to restrict carefully.

Minion: And now we go the other way. These are the simplest of NPCs, each one only worth a quarter of average (25 XP at lvl 1) and deals static damage. They are build so you can throw a mob out and not overwhelm guys. These are one hit kills. These can be used for a Zerg Rush.


So, with a budget of 500 XP, you could have 1 Solo, 2 Elites and 1 Regular monsters, 5 regular monsters of various styles, 20 minions, 2 Elites and 4 Minions, 1 Elite with 2 Regulars and 4 Minions... The problem is, I could also use one lvl 18 Minion, which XP is equal to a single lvl 1 Solo. That's, not really fair. So you may also want to put a limit on maximum level.


You see where this goes, a ton of flexibility. So, you want to throw tons of bad guys at them, get wave after wave of minions. Prefer a few tough guys, have at it. Want a mix, just plug and play.




And yes, 4E loves refluffling. All that really counts is the stat block. So you can have a Merman, Fire Elemental, Succubus, Paladin, and Blue Dragon all playing together as a group of Elves. If you do get the subscription, it includes every monster printed, as well as an "official" monster builder, though I honestly can't say how balanced that is. Changing the level on a monster is also really easy, so if you love a lvl 1 monster but want to get it to lvl 10, that's a simple math equation. But really, if you like the mechanics, that's all that matters here.



I'm actually very interested in playing in a game like this, so I've already done some thinking on the subject. If you want any more info, let me know. This is essentially DM vs DM, which is a fun alternate. The other thing you'll need, is a massive map, full of fun terrain. Holes, traps, walls, the works. Make them struggle to just fight each other, and this will be memorable.

[Athistaurr]

Hi,
i read long ago the interesting advice to stat "armies" like swarms. Imagine that a group of soldiers on a bigger scale behaves similiar to a group of scarabs in a dungeon.

Here is an example of a creature/army i homebrewed and used in my campaign a while ago.
Legion Devil Squad (www.athistaur.net/dmf/share?id=19)

It went pretty well.