Let's Do This Again: Core Wizard 20 vs. Splatbook Fighter 20

[cosmonuts]

Let's Do This Again: Core Wizard 20 vs. Splatbook Fighter 20

http://i.imgur.com/OKEP1mF.png?1
"Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit" by Teh-Dave (http://teh-dave.deviantart.com/art/Angel-Summoner-and-BMX-Bandit-260104540)

INTRO

Some time ago there was a duel between a core wizard 20 and a splatbook fighter 20 (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4209). The wizard won, to no one's surprise. Unfortunately, the duel was unsatisfactory, since many of the wizard's actions were not rules-legal, and many of the fighter's actions were extraordinarily suboptimal (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4210.msg208789#msg208789). To be clear, this thread is not a debate about whether a core wizard would defeat a splatbook fighter in one-on-one combat. What I want in this thread is to revisit the duel.

I want help from the community to build a wizard 20 out of core (PH, DMG, MMI), as well as a fighter 20 out of all officially published WotC material (including Dragon Compendium but not individual Dragon magazines). They will duel in a place and setup designed to be fair to both builds (undecided as of now). The community will play both the wizard and the fighter, as well as act as the DM and rules-lawyer of the match. Essentially, we're creating an optimal rules-legal battle sequence between a core wizard and a splatbook fighter.


RULES

These rules aren't final. These are suggested, and are open to changes and edits.
Using D&D 3.5e rules-as-written, with leeway for mitigating serious abuse (chain-gating solars, etc). No major rewrites or errata.
20-level base class wizard and fighter taken all the way up to level 20. +0 LA races only and no templates. No PrCs; alternate class features explicitly allowed. Characters start at experience level 20 (190,000 XP) and standard WBL (760,000 gp). No flaws or traits. No bloodlines. No leadership or anything resembling it.
The following stats, arranged however you wish: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.
Fight begins without buff (or surprise) round. No diplomacy.
General preparations are assumed, like resting for spells.
Both wizard and figher know of each other and each other's race and class. No other reconnaissance (discovering which buffs, magic items, etc they have) permitted.
No more than 1/3 WBL spent on any single item. No ammunition shenanigans to reduce magic item cost. No magic item crafting or magic item cost reduction by alignment/skill/ability restrictions. No doubling a slot-taking item's cost to make it slotless. No custom items, except weapons, armors, and shields with special abilities. Custom scrolls of spells allowed, but obviously not custom spells.
Losing entails death, surrender, being unable to act for an hour or more, or traveling more than a mile away from the opponent. Traveling to a non-overlapping plane counts as a loss. Shadow and ethereal plane travel is allowed. No timeless planes permitted.


NOTES

Please suggest changes and/or correct me. I am very eager to run this so I can get over the anxiety of not having this duel run properly last time.

Let's discuss what kinds of arena is fair to both fighter and wizard. The classic arena is wizard and fighter start 100 ft from one another, in an infinite open endless plain (no difficult terrain) on a material plane with normal material planar traits.

I like the Test of Spite's ruleset (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150821-Test-of-Spite-3-5). We won't be following it, but I think it's a good place to start when deciding what's too OP and what's not.

Since I'm a pretty terrible optimizer and a worse rules-lawyer, I would like to invite someone(s?) who is capable of both to be the final judge and arbiter of the duel, and what's allowed and/or not allowed.

[OldTrees1]

The splatbook fighter is restricted from ACFs?

[malonkey1]

As far as ACF banning, I'm not on board. That really only serves to gimp the fighter, because he's really best with ACFs. As far as an arena, I propose a domed Colosseum, about the size of a bsketball court, with pillars/trees/what-have-you set about 15-20 feet apart for cover. And leadership should be right out.

[cosmonuts]

The splatbook fighter is restricted from ACFs?

IIRC this is in the original ruleset, although now I think about it it's not a good rule. I'll change it.


And leadership should be right out.

Righto.

[Telonius]

For the prep round - will Time Stop be legal for either the Wizard or the Fighter (via UMD)?
EDIT: Traveling to a non-overlapping plane should count as a loss, as should anything involving a timeless plane. (Ethereal and Shadow planes would be okay).

[cosmonuts]

Don't quote me on this, but time stop was errata'd to be an instantaneous buff, but originally by RAW it was temporary (it had a duration). So it's not allowed in the buffing round, since erratas aren't a part of this game's RAW.

[OldTrees1]

I would assume the Fighter would have:
A Novice Vest of Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge) and 0-3 Novice Rings of Diamond Mind (the Concentration Save counters)


By no custom items besides Weapons/Armor/Shield,
does that mean Boots of Elvenkind only come in the +5 variety?
does that mean a Weapon of +40 spot is allowed?

[dextercorvia]

How long does a long duration buff have to be before it can be assumed to be on at the start of the battle?

[Urpriest]

I assume that instead of no errata, you mean all errata?

[cosmonuts]

These are the rules from the old thread. I don't actually know if they make the duel better or worse, so I'm open to suggestions (like errata, for instance). There are vagaries associated with it as well.

As for the buffing question, I think this rule


No temporary buffs may be brought to the duel from this buffing round; only permanent buffs, instantaneous buffs, or continuous buffs (like from magic items).

covers the matter pretty handily, but I'm not sure what the purpose of it is.

[dextercorvia]

I assume that instead of no errata, you mean all errata?

Rather, I think it means no Houseruled errata to RAW. Or it should, since it is in the same breath as rewrites. This is to prevent X is totally not broken, because of Y houserule/homebrew.

[dextercorvia]

covers the matter pretty handily, but I'm not sure what the purpose of it is.

Wait, so the buff round can't be used to grant you temporary buffs? (From being the operative word there)

[toapat]

I assume that instead of no errata, you mean all errata?

All errata beneficial to the Fighter


Im looking at what feats the wizard gets access to, and i have no idea how you would optimize the wizard with them, really it may be just skewed in favor of the fighter enough that the wizard cant win without exploits (but they still can thoroughly kick the fighter's ass while doing so, just not as well).

Grey Elf is a given for the wizard.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, if I was the Wizard, I think I would be using my buff round to PAO a pebble into something really nasty.

[cosmonuts]

Wait, so the buff round can't be used to grant you temporary buffs? (From being the operative word there)

This is a very strange rule when I look at it. I don't know if there's any problem with just setting down a buff round, no further qualifiers, and having combat start afterwards. Does preventing temporary buffs have any practical impact on crazy pre-battle stunts aside from making it more annoying for both wizard and fighter?

I'm fine with just changing this rule to buff round (still no time stop pls).

[toapat]

Yeah, if I was the Wizard, I think I would be using my buff round to PAO a pebble into something really nasty.

i guess the question is, are core spells so utterly broken that everything available in the game cant compete?

My question is this: How many Feats does it take to allow the Fighter to specialize into Standard Action killing the Tarrasque and gain the best possible chance to kill a wizard while the fighter Also has Spellfire wielder.

[HaikenEdge]

Why not just get rid of the buff round altogether and have it be like, "A wizard and a fighter meet in a dark alleyway, except this dark alleyway is actually a domed stadium."

[NoACWarrior]

That's the hard part though, the wizard will most likely have a contingency or 10 of them.

Then enter celerity and the wizard wins.

Until I read that its core only for the wizard...

Unless the fighter is allowed to go first, does a DD next to the wizard, has an AMF pop as part of a contingency, the wizard has no readied action and the wizard doesn't have the anti-teleport magic, and the fighter has very heavy lockdown / movement denial, the wizard has a very good chance to win.

Its very possible for the fighter to win in the above scenario, but that doesn't replicate a true duel.

[dextercorvia]

A level 1 commoner with 11 feats can cast a 9th level spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35), so I imagine we can do better with Fighter20 if all splats are allowed. We might even be able to beat the Core wizard at his own game that way.

[TrueJordan]

I would assume the Fighter would have:
A Novice Vest of Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge) and 0-3 Novice Rings of Diamond Mind (the Concentration Save counters)


By no custom items besides Weapons/Armor/Shield,
does that mean Boots of Elvenkind only come in the +5 variety?
does that mean a Weapon of +40 spot is allowed?

He'd need two vests of Iron Heart, since there's a prereq of another (basically useless).

Also, I'm thinking a fighter with full ranks in Diplomacy and/or animal handling, with a +30 in it and maxing out Charisma, which'd cost an extra 90K+36K (for the cloak of Cha +6) and starting with Cha of 18+5 for levels+5 tome (another 137.5K) brings his cha up to 34, which is a +12, gives him a +30+12+23=+65, and that's without using a scroll of divine favor (Full ranks would be 10 since it's a cross class, then +12 from cha) which would yield him a +80 using only a fraction of his wealth. Then he can just train hoards of chaos rocs (DC 73 to rear & train).

Method two, do the same thing, but in diplomacy. Assuming everyone is indifferent to him, he can achieve a + 52 in diplomacy, or +67 after divine favor. But we need him to get a 90 to get them fanatic ('Fight to the death against overwhelming odds, throw self in front of onrushing dragon') so give him Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and the Negotiator Feats to boost it up to +72. Then he can just keep trying until he has an army of everyone forever. Spend the rest of his money boosting initiative cuz why not, which there are many ways of doing out of core, especially by level 20.

Round one
The wizard, all confident, swaggers into the arena, to be greeted by 30 other wizards protecting the fighter. And they're not limited to core spells, either.

Check and mate.

[toapat]

That's the hard part though, the wizard will most likely have a contingency or 10 of them.

Then enter celerity and the wizard wins.

Until I read that its core only for the wizard...

Unless the fighter is allowed to go first, does a DD next to the wizard, has an AMF pop as part of a contingency, the wizard has no readied action and the wizard doesn't have the anti-teleport magic, and the fighter has very heavy lockdown / movement denial, the wizard has a very good chance to win.

Its very possible for the fighter to win in the above scenario, but that doesn't replicate a true duel.

and the fighter is absolutely going to have invested at least 1 of their 4-5 first level feats into Spellfire Wielder to absorb upto Consitution Spell levels. to give an example, if a Fighter has 8 less then maximum points of stored spellfire and gets hit with a Meteor swarm directly, the spell's DC, when cast by a 36 int Wizard, will only be 3. and at best can only deal 21 damage to the fighter If all 32 dice roll 6s.

If the fighter can get a reliable source of Double standard actions per turn, then they could, theoretically, Facetank the wizard entirely with nothing better then 18 con And straight 3s in every other stat.


A level 1 commoner with 11 feats can cast a 9th level spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8753936&postcount=35), so I imagine we can do better with Fighter20 if all splats are allowed. We might even be able to beat the Core wizard at his own game that way.

pretty sure this explicitly breaks the "No Cheese" Rule. Also not RAW possible to get that many feats at level 1 as Fighter (Cleric can, Fighter can only get 10 and one of those has to be exaulted). The only way to actually get all those at level one is ABSOLUTELY rules illegal

[OldTrees1]

He'd need two vests of Iron Heart, since there's a prereq of another (basically useless).
Since you can't wear 2 vests and the event rules prohibit combining the items, I would assume the Fighter would spend a feat on Martial Study for either the prereq or IHS.

[dextercorvia]

pretty sure this explicitly breaks the "No Cheese" Rule. Also not RAW possible to get that many feats at level 1 as Fighter (Cleric can, Fighter can only get 10 and one of those has to be exaulted). The only way to actually get all those at level one is ABSOLUTELY rules illegal

You don't need them all at level 1. Only a couple are level 1 only.

I don't see a No Cheese rule.

[TrueJordan]

Since you can't wear 2 vests and the event rules prohibit combining the items, I would assume the Fighter would spend a feat on Martial Study for either the prereq or IHS.

Though it'd be prudent for him to spend 2 feats on it, if just so it can't be disjoined or AMF'd.

[Zweisteine]

I agree that the buff round should be removed. It is a distinct advantage to the wizard.

I'd like to comment that, in the post on the Min/Max boards saying the Wizard broke the rules, many of the listed violations are either not actual violations, or are debatable. Sure, a bunch were right, but it still bothers me that many were not.
He says that the wizard should have lost control of the dragons when line of effect was broken. There is no such rule in the effects of the spell gate.
He says that the dragons could not have been summoned through the gates, but there is no size limitation on the creatures summoned by that spell.
He states that the wizard could not wish for a contingent dimension door, because he'd have to cast dimension door separately. However, there is no reason to believe that the wizard did not cast dimension door separately.
He says that the wizard can't choose how the dragons serve him beyond general orders. The wizard could easily say something like "attack that man recklessly with only your front left claws, your wings, and your breath weapons."
As for the wizard's inability to know about celestial great wyrm gold dragons, it seems likely that knowing that any creature can be celestial, knowing gold dragons exist, and knowing the most powerful dragons are great wyrms would give a massive bonus to putting the three together (which is not RAW, but it's logic (I know, I know; logic has no place in TO, but still...)).
He says the contingency couldn't have such a specific trigger. A trigger along the lines of "activate when a fighter attacks me with an attack that is not [list of immunities]" should work well enough.

He also completely ignored the "wall of stone + stoneshape (Dome) + transmute rock to mud + transmute mud to rock" option the wizard brought up, and the fact that most of the illegal things the wizard did were not important to his victory.

Here's something interesting: the Fighter might want a Mirror of Opposition.

[toapat]

You don't need them all at level 1. Only a couple are level 1 only.

I don't see a No Cheese rule.

Leeway for mitigating serious abuse. its the second rule and basically intended both ways. IHS doesnt get to be "remove target Wizard's spellcasting next time it effects me" but also no purely abusive things like Earthen/Sanctum spell or Krau sigil (because thats some murky water). But MuneDan the Caster is banned moreso on principle of what the challenge is about, in that beating a wizard by becoming the wizard isnt really accepting the challenge.

[Taffimai]

This is fascinating and I will follow it with rapt attention.

[dextercorvia]

But MuneDan the Caster is banned moreso on principle of what the challenge is about, in that beating a wizard by becoming the wizard isnt really accepting the challenge.

I'm sorry, what is Fightery about Spellfire Wielder?

Actually, I think it is incredibly pertinent, that the Fighter can (with an expenditure of resources that the Fighter gets in excess, ie. feats) replicate the class features of the Wizard, if for no other reason, than one reason why the Fighter is so maligned is that he has no other options besides, "I hit it again."

[toapat]

I'm sorry, what is Fightery about Spellfire Wielder?

Actually, I think it is incredibly pertinent, that the Fighter can (with an expenditure of resources that the Fighter gets in excess, ie. feats) replicate the class features of the Wizard, if for no other reason, than one reason why the Fighter is so maligned is that he has no other options besides, "I hit it again."

SFW is not Fightery in its fluff but its very typical of something the Fighter type can do (in other fiction), which is shrug off spells like they are nothing. granted what you can do with the stored energy is not fightery at all


Going so far as to duplicate the effects of a class over time, such as through the mundane caster route, is an TO exersize for SnG. Its not useful to a comparison of 2 classes because it completely ignores the argument and expecially in this scenario is unfair to the wizard, because the fighter would become through their options a superior wizard for simple fact of having more, better spells. In terms of bleeding edge overpowered gimmics, fine. Its legal when we are throwing it at say, The Humanoid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336130-Optimization-Challenge-The-Humanoid), but anything that is class vs class its not really fair anymore.

[OldTrees1]

Though it'd be prudent for him to spend 2 feats on it, if just so it can't be disjoined or AMF'd.

Well there are 5 anti Wizard maneuvers (3 save replacers, IHS and a prerequisite) and Martial Study can only be taken 3 times.

[malonkey1]

Well there are 5 anti Wizard maneuvers (3 save replacers, IHS and a prerequisite) and Martial Study can only be taken 3 times.


One Save replacer
Prereq. for IHS
Iron Heart Surge


Then wear Diamond Mind Rings for the other two save replacers.

[OldTrees1]

One Save replacer
Prereq. for IHS
Iron Heart Surge


Then wear Diamond Mind Rings for the other two save replacers.

Due to the Item restrictions on this event, I have a feeling that that 2nd ring slot might be more valuable than a vest slot.

[squiggit]

Actually, I think it is incredibly pertinent, that the Fighter can (with an expenditure of resources that the Fighter gets in excess, ie. feats) replicate the class features of the Wizard, if for no other reason, than one reason why the Fighter is so maligned is that he has no other options besides, "I hit it again."

The idea here is to show whether or not a fighter can hold their own in this situation. Saying "I can cheese my way into becoming a wizard" is just admitting that wizards win, which defeats the whole point.

[cosmonuts]

I removed buff round from the rules. I think it makes the fight less competitive.

Also, diplomacy is not allowed because it's diplomacy. I am going to add that to the rules.

I think it's cool fighters can grab 9th level spell (a la dextercorvia), but I cannot imagine even the naivest DM being okay with eleven feats giving 9th level spells. So I'm going to guess that whoever DMs this duel will say no to that.

[Kraken]

One round before the duel, both the wizard and fighter may spend their time buffing. They are unable to influence one another (either directly or by changing the other's immediate environment) or the arena where the duel takes place. No time stop or any spell which allows more than one round of buffing during this round.

I don't think this makes sense at all. Combat should begin as though they just ran into one another unexpectedly. Further, as it seems we want each competitor to strike at peak readiness, I believe that any sustainable buff setup not achieved by consumables should be assumed to be active, as long as the duration of the setup is 15 hours or more. So, stuff achieved from potions and scrolls would not be okay, but stuff from abilities or items you get every day for free (spell slots, reusable magic items) are fair game. If, for example, you wanted to buy enough ebony fly figurines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ebonyFly) or gems of seeing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gemofSeeing) to keep them active during all 15 waking hours every day, I think it's fair to assume you begin combat with your fly already transformed or true seeing active. 15 hours is the assumed number due to the 9 hours it takes for wizards to recover and prepare spells, and 8 hours of rest plus the daily practice time to ready maneuvers, don/remove armor, and so forth for the fighter. During these off hours I think it is fair to assume that each has somewhere where they're safe enough to not need to worry about being caught without armor, spells, and so forth. It does not make sense for a wizard to prepare to prepare any 24 hour or hours/level buff spell (unless at lower levels) and not simply cast it immediately, for instance. Similarly, it does not make sense for a fighter who has taken martial stance to wait any amount of time before entering the stance, it should be done immediately at the start of the day. I realize that allowing buffs in this fashion dramatically favors the wizard, but on the other hand, the more handicaps you give the wizard, the less meaningful any victory for the fighter becomes.

[dextercorvia]

I think it's cool fighters can grab 9th level spell (a la dextercorvia), but I cannot imagine even the naivest DM being okay with eleven feats giving 9th level spells. So I'm going to guess that whoever DMs this duel will say no to that.

It's ok. It's not the first time I've been ruled out of an optimization challenge for over optimizing. I was just trying to give the fighter some love this time.