3.5 Alchemist optimization

[CIDE]

Alright, I first need to clear up some confusion here since I know people are going to jump to the conclusion that it's a conversion and/or homebrew thread. I'm not trying to convert the PF Alchemist class to 3.5 and I'm also not trying to homebrew a new class. I'm asking for potential build advice for a theoretical character; one I might want to try as an NPC in a world when I can get a campaign going again.

Now...crunch time. Essentially what I would appreciate help on here is to build a (technically) non-magical Alchemist type character. Mostly through alchemical items. One that's at the very least effective.

The class doesn't matter
Any level except epic levels (though shenanigans to get epic feats and stuff possible)
Prefer to not have a full caster like a wizard (Artificer, factotum, etc is better choice)
Races don't matter. Whatever works best with possible alternatives as well
Cheese is entirely welcome and appreciated. It can be adjusted an
While not mandatory I'd rather the other class features (such as with an artificer) being able to completely outshine the alchemist stuff if at all possible. If it's not possible then I'll just work on it.
Some Pathfinder stuff is allowed. I just want to avoid using the specific Alchemist class.



I should note the type of alchemist doesn't even really matter. Though, I doubt anyone's going to find a way to build a Full Metal Alchemist here.

Thanks!

[dextercorvia]

I'm replying to mark this while I think about it, but I think Warforged Factotum for the base -- you get bonuses from Factotum, and are tireless from Warforged. However, you will need some form of spellcasting to make alchemy work. I'm thinking a Marshal and a Bard dip. Getting an arcane spellcaster level will help with things like using an Eternal Wand of Magecraft each day. At Bard 3 we can swap inspire competence for Music of Making.

For feats, apprentice: craftsman helps (a little). Skill Focus is a given.

I might replace Warforged with Necropolitan, so we can qualify for some human only feats like Least Mark of Making.

[Azoth]

Two ways to start this without being a spellcaster. One is the feat magical Training from PGtF. It makes you a spellcaster who knows 3 cantrips. The second is the feat Craft Alchemical Item from Unearthed Arcana. This gives you a 100 point craft reserve that doesn't expire and can be spent at 1 point per 10GP to say you crafted an item without spending the time to do so or 1 point per 50GP if you take the time to make it. Even once the reserve is empty you can still craft alchemical items normally.

Two PRCs to look into are Master Alchemist and Alchemist Savant.

Two feats that are useful to the build are Grenadier and Mad Alchemist.

Their are scattered about various web enhancements and books some additives you can put into alchemical items to alter/enhance them.

When I get off work I will look into some of my notes because I have built a character for this purpose before.

[CIDE]

Currently looking up everything you've brought up so far. I like the feat mentioned and the point system. That makes thins awfully easy since it states you don't need the spellcasting requirement anymore for alchemical items.

Now, just to put it all together to make an effective character. Enough damage to matter, enough utility to matter, etc.

[Azoth]

Strongheart Halfling Rouge (taking halfling substitution levels) is a good base. Pump Hide/Move Silently then start chucking alchemical items for Touch AC sneak attacks. It is an odd foible getting precision damage with a splash weapon, but that is RAW for you.

Though to make the most of both prestige classes listed you would want to go something like wizard(or artificer)5/Alchemist Savant5/Master Alchemist10.

Human is required for the build.

Feats would be something like:
Flaw:Skill Focus (craft: alchemy)
Flaw: Least Dragon Mark (Mark of Making)
Human: Grenadier
Wiz1st: scribe scroll
1st: Mad Alchemist
3rd: extrodinary artisan (-25% cost of any item you create)
Wiz5th: Brew potion
6th: Magical Artisan (potions)
9th:
12:
15:
18:

As you can see, most of your feats are free so plenty of room for customization. I recommend focusing skill points into the usual wizard skills (concentration, spellcraft, Kn:arcana) as well as (craft:alchemy and craft: poison).

You end up a full caster the whole way through. You also get to create potions up to 9th level spells, mix poisons with your offensive potions (spellvials) or alchemical items. You can brew upto 3 potions/spellvials per day, and create alchemical items in a fraction of the time (1hr=1 day, 1 day=1 week).

You can do the same thing with an Artificer by just shifting the feats a bit.

[Vedhin]

Though to make the most of both prestige classes listed you would want to go something like wizard(or artificer)5/Alchemist Savant5/Master Alchemist10.


I'm glad this build is catching on. And you also got the mixing poison and alchemy from Create Alchemical Mixture right!

Anyway, I advise going Artificer, if you can get the DM to allow infusions to qualify for Master Alchemist (it requires arcane or divine, and infusions qualify for untyped. As both types are there, you are barred entry only by a technicality).

Try to talk your DM into allowing you to use Craft (alchemy)'s epic usages without needing the epic feat that enables them (so very stupid).

If he protests then Dragonwrought Kobold cheese might let you nab the feat.

If that doesn't work, grab some Sinmaker's Surprise from the 3.0 Manual of the Planes (Carceri section), and some Venomous Fire from the Fiend Folio (under Yuan-Ti Abomination). Use Create Alchemical Mixture to combine the two, and then melt enemies into puddles of goo.

The Apprentice (Craftsman) feat from the DMGII reduces mundane crafting costs, as do two affiliations from the PHII.

There's a magic cauldron in Expedition to Undermountain that is invaluable to any aspiring potioneer, but the name escapes me.

[Piggy Knowles]

Here is my semi-magical alchemist build, that I've been hankering to play for a while:

Human, Rogue 1/Artificer 5/Trapsmith 1/Alchemist Savant 4/Uncanny Trickster 3/Ardent Dilettante 6/??? 1

1- Able Learner, Least Dragonmark (Make Whole)
2- Scribe Scroll
3- Shape Soulmeld (Phase Cloak), Brew Potion
4- Craft Wondrous Item
5- Craft Magic Arms & Armor
6- Lesser Dragonmark (Minor Creation), Craft Wand
9- Practiced Spellcaster (Trapsmith)
12- Exceptional Artisan, Open Lesser Chakra (Shoulders)
15- Poison Spell
16- Dragonmark Adept (Quick Potion)
18- Craven

Ardent Dilettante and Uncanny Trickster both boost Artificer levels, while Alchemist Savant boosts Trapsmith.

The basic idea is a highly skilled build that gets into places, steals things or poisons enemies, and gets out. Phase Cloak to phase in and out of hard to reach places, Alchemist Savant's alchemical mixture ability to create alchemical poisons (meaning poison as a splash weapon to hit multiple enemies per shot, or poison combined with disabling attacks like tanglefoot bags). Spellvial gives even more potent options - spellvial a touch spell with the Poison Spell feat, combined with yet more poison or an alchemical item, to hit enemies with a touch spell, an alchemical bomb and poison all at once. Oh yeah, and sneak + Craven damage, too. It's not mind-blowing, but it's not bad. Considering dropping it for Staggering Strike, though.

I can Minor Creation poisons, or take actual scavenged poison and fabricate it into large quantities (handy for Poison Spell).

Dragonmark Adept was mostly because I wanted more uses of my Lesser Dragonmark, and I thought Quick Potion was a pretty fun spell that fit the theme of the character, but it could easily be swapped for Greater Dragonmark.

Still haven't found anything spectacular to close the build out with, so I'd probably just use another level of artificer or add on a level of cloistered cleric or something.

[dextercorvia]

I decided to go for an E6 legal build.

Necropolitan Human Bard4/Marshal1/AlchemistSavant1

Go Int = 18>Cha>Dex

Skip Marshal if you can't get at least a 16 Cha (maybe even if you can)

Feats:
F: Versatile Spellcaster
F: Song of Making
H: Skill Focus: Craft(Alchemy)
1: Least Dragonmark(Making)
3: Heighten Spell
5: Skill Focus: Diplomacy (Bonus)
6: Song of the Heart

Trait: Illiterate

Equipment : Badge of Valor, Helm of Tactics, Circlet of Int +2, Eternal Wand of Magecraft

At level one you have Ranks 4 + Int 4 + SF 3 + SoM 4 + Mark 2 + Ill 1 = +22 to craft (+2 if you can get access to a good lab). So, you can make a 10gp Acid Flask in about 6 hours. That's not that great.

By level 6, you have Ranks 9 + Int 5 + SF 3 + SoM 6 + Mark 2 + MotInt 3 + Magecraft 5 + Regalia 2 + MW Lab 2 = +37. Alch Savant lets you finish a week's worth of time per day, so we can make a 10gp Acid flask in about 25 minutes. That is much better. Thanks to our tireless work ethic, while the meatbags are sleeping, you can crank out a day's worth of supplies, no problem.

Edit: And, you are pretty good at Inspire Courage, which is nice if you are ever without your bag of tricks.