Is it evil to use a summoned animal to kill something, if it causes their death?

[Banaticus]

Summon Nature’s Ally II can summon a hippogriff, and the Monster Manual explicitly says they weigh a thousand pounds. They have a flying movement of 100' with average maneuverability, which means they can turn 45 degrees for free with every 5' they travel, a max 60 degree upward angle (one forward two up), and then can only spend 50' of their 100'movement going up. Hippogriffs take up a 10'x10' area.

There are five parts to this.
1. Flies straight across the face of the map for 5', gaining 10' and provoking an attack of opportunity. 15' total.
2. Changes direction 90°, flies 5' forward, gains 10'. 30' total. 30' total.
3. Changes direction 90°, flies 5' forward, gains 10'. 60' total. 60' total.
4. Flies 5' straight forward, gains 10' and the front square is now over the creature. 90' total.
5. Falls onto the creature (fall of 30').
In the Crashing section, the DMG says you can fall 500' in a round. If a Hippogriff has a 100' move, then it moved 90% of its move and has 10% the round left to fall. 10% of 500 is 50', so it has plenty of time left in the round to fall that 30'.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/bubbajoe12345/hippogryphfallingattack_zpsda1ee03b.png

"For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage)." That's 5d6 damage for the weight, and 2d6 for the height, for 7d6 unless you think that's X amount of damage dice for every 200 pounds in which case it's 10d6 damage

Simple summon nature's ally 2 spell, if animal's attacks couldn't possibly get through the monster's DR, have the animal fly up and dive bomb the monster, since that's the only way to damage the monster with that creature. This is a "splash attack", which is a ranged attack vs AC 5 (targets a grid intersection and automatically hits everything immediately around that intersection).

Here's the crux of the matter. It was the only way for that summoned animal to damage the monster. The animal would have been desummoned afterward and in this campaign it's never the same animal/creature which is summoned by a summon spell.

Is this an evil act? Are these creatures really "alive" or are they more like programmed constructs created by the spell? Is a suicide attack more evil than having a creature try to bodyblock a monster that it can't damage?

[eggynack]

I'm not really sure about the majority of the stuff you're saying, but you're fine on the death of summoned monsters thing. According to the PHB, page 173, "killing" a summoned creature doesn't actually kill them. They just reform where they came from after 24 hours. I suppose that would be somewhat harmful to the summoned creature, losing that 24 hours after being pummeled into oblivion, but it's not really a big deal.

[Devils_Advocate]

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv....htm#summoning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#summoning)


Of course, if you really want to get into it, you can ask whether summoning creatures shouldn't be considered unethical in general, how non-[Mind Affecting] spells are even supposed to be able to make creatures obey your commands in the first place, why a first-level spell can transport creatures across the planes and contingently resurrect them, but only wussy creatures, in marked contrast to how normal teleportation and resurrection spells work, etc.

But if you want designer intent, I'm pretty sure that it's that you not really think about any of that too hard.

[Yanisa]

Well the creature cannot permanently die, there is still the whole oddity with Nature's Ally and natural non planar creatures that "reform". Also nothing states whether those creatures feel pain or remember stuff from the combat, so that's kinda up to the DM.
I still say it's a non good action at best. You are demanding a living creature to do an act that results in its death, even if it cannot die, it's still a pretty gruesome order to give out. But because the creature doesn't really die and there might not be any lasting trauma's for the critter, I don't really want to call it evil either. It might not even remember the whole ordeal.
But it's pretty much a combination of "up to the DM" and your/the DM's personal view of the alignment system.

[HighWater]

Evil? Does the spell have an Evil descriptor? Summoned monsters are expected to "die" and that's okay since they don't actually die.

Whether you can actually order the Hippogriff to Suicide-Dive-Bomb is a matter that might exceed "RAI" though:


This spell summons a natural creature. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

It says it can "perform other actions", so there's wiggleroom, but it's also a "natural" creature. How would you communicate such an order to the hippogriff if it is not in its standard-repertoire of moves? They have an Int of 2, pushing a random summoned hippogriff into a rather unorthodox and completely suicidal fighting style it doesn't even know would probably not fly (har har) in my book.

As for more RAI, there is a very specific clause in the spell that "discourages" dropping, for instance, porpoises or horses on enemies:


A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them.

This remains however, completely and utterly up to your DM. If he/she is fine with "divebombing", you can probably get really creative with summoned monsters.

I suspect that your feeling that this might be "evil" stems from the fact that this is a very unnatural act for the summoned hippogriff. Make of that what you will.

[Deophaun]

One of the things that gets glossed over with morality and ethics is that it's not just about the effect the deed has on the "victim," but also about the effect it has on the "perpetrator." This is something that the player has to decide: did this action make the character more or less likely to use another living creature in this way in the future? Is the character conditioning himself to view other living creatures as things to be used and discarded? If so, then, if you want to dig into the moral weeds, this could be considered an evil act. But this judgment is 100% up to the player.

[Taffimai]

There's also the issue of the poor hippogriff's nest left one parent short for 24 hours. If the eggs/fledgelings/partner come to harm because you thought hippobombing the dragon was a better thing to do than, say, Grease, and without giving it a second thought, I'd count that as a strike against you for the purpose of keeping your Exalted feats, for example.

It's all very dependent on the circumstances, the campaign and ultimately, your DM. Personally, I choose to DM-fiat that no creatures are harmed in the casting of the spell.

[Ravens_cry]

I like to think that you aren't summoning a wolf, you are summoning Wolf,the platonic ideal and archetypal example of wolfishness, made form and manifest by whatever forces empower druidic magic.

[Particle_Man]

If it really bothers you, you could play a psion (shaper) instead. They form temporary astral constructs out of astral goo, that are not alive, don't feel pain, etc.

[Slipperychicken]

Of course, if you really want to get into it, you can ask whether summoning creatures shouldn't be considered unethical in general

Shadowrun actually addresses that question (the fluff for summoning is similar in that game), and concludes that it's slavery, and that cruel/impetuous summoners might find themselves lynched by angry spirits.

Personally, I think that's a cool way to use the setting to balance an otherwise-OP tactic.