Cantrip/Orison abuse in pathfinder, solutions?

[MonkeySage]

My group and I have recently switched over to pathfinder and everything's great and all but I as the gm have run into one annoying issue... The party cleric abusing unlimited orisons to poke his severely injured teammates until they are fully healed(Cure Minor Wounds). Now, I like the unlimited 0 level casting... but I do not want my players to abuse this. What techniques might I use to ensure that this does not continue?

I do not want to make any rule changes.

The player behind the cleric is a reasonable, level headed guy, and would probably understand my frustration, but I do not yet want to directly address him on this. It would feel like I was scolding him, and I hate that.

[deuxhero]

Cure Minor Wounds doesn't exist in Pathfinder.

[MonkeySage]

So it doesn't. :) Ok, now that I know this... How might I bring this to my player's attention?

[ryu]

Why is that such a big deal? Functionally limitless healing over time is not a very expensive thing even if you don't have limitless level 0 spells. Health isn't a resource that should keep parties with even a lick of common sense and planning down. For pity's sake a wand of lesser vigor should be an easy commodity for even parties with no casters at all...

[Yanisa]

Cure Minor Wounds doesn't exist in Pathfinder.
In fact it got kinda replaced with Stabilize, which fulfills the same slot, a cantrip that prevents bleeding to death, without the healing aspect.


So it doesn't. :) Ok, now that I know this... How might I bring this to my player's attention?
Make him read the core rule book? Or the PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/spell-lists-and-domains/spell-lists---cleric#p0)? So he learns that spell doesn't exist in the game?

[BWR]

Why is that such a big deal? Functionally limitless healing over time is not a very expensive thing even if you don't have limitless level 0 spells. Health isn't a resource that should keep parties with even a lick of common sense and planning down. For pity's sake a wand of lesser vigor should be an easy commodity for even parties with no casters at all...

1. Vigor doesn't exist in PF.
2. wands cost money. At will cures don't.


I had a player who was, to my mind, abusing Prestidigitation and Detect Magic, so I just reduced all cantrips to 3+casting modifier per day each. That still grants them a lot of spells but not to the effect that they are continusouly use.

[Killer Angel]

So it doesn't. :) Ok, now that I know this... How might I bring this to my player's attention?

Outline the fact that one of the more common problems, when you use a game system that is largely similar to another one, is to "mix" in your mind different things. One example is that some spells are slightly changed, and some other don't exist no more.
Cure Minor Wounds isn't included in PF, probably exactly for the reason that now orizons are unlimited.

[ryu]

1. Vigor doesn't exist in PF.
2. wands cost money. At will cures don't.


I had a player who was, to my mind, abusing Prestidigitation and Detect Magic, so I just reduced all cantrips to 3+casting modifier per day each. That still grants them a lot of spells but not to the effect that they are continusouly use.

Except in this case each casting of lesser vigor from the wand costs as much to most characters proportionally as it would cost you to get a single Hershey kiss. Level one wands are not expensive.

[deuxhero]

1. Vigor doesn't exist in PF.

It does, and it's on most arcane casters spell lists too (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Infernal%20Healing)

[ryu]

It does, and it's on most arcane casters spell lists too (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Infernal%20Healing)

Nevermind. Derp from not playing low level in a long time.

[AnonymousPepper]

It does, and it's on most arcane casters spell lists too (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Infernal%20Healing)

Except for the minor issue that it's [evil] though

[ryu]

Except for the minor issue that it's [evil] though

Well it is. Good characters can cast evil spells. Neutral characters can easily get by casting them routinely without anyone batting an eye.

[Coidzor]

So it doesn't. :) Ok, now that I know this... How might I bring this to my player's attention?

Before the next game starts you turn to the group and say "Hey, so I was doing some light reading and I found out we missed a spot when we converted to Pathfinder." The rest should come pretty naturally from there, I should hope. :smalltongue:

[HighWater]

Indeed, just address the group next session and say something along the lines of:

"Hey guys/gals, I thought it was kindah weird that you could get infinite healing with your unlimited orisons. Turns out you can't, because Cure Minor Wounds doesn't exist in Pathfinder. Whoopsie-daisy, guess we missed thatone. I'm gonna leave past sessions as-is, but Cure Minor Wounds from now on doesn't exist anymore."

If they are stuck in the middle of nowhere and didn't buy an alternative healing source, replace the last sentence with:
"Cause you guys are stuck in the middle of nowhere, I'm gonna ret-con in a wand of Cure Minor Wounds with x-charges remaining. Use with care."

Most players won't be upset with fixing an honest mistake for future sessions. Express that you have at least partial blame and nobody should feel directly scolded.


As for the "healing is basically free anyway". It isn't at low levels where a 1st level wand is a significant expenditure, especially if you need to replace it occasionally. Lateron it's still a nice touch because it can make PCs nervous that, although a new wand may be cheap, the one they have with them is almost empty and they're not out of the dungeon yet... Maybe the Cleric will finally cast a real cure spell then!

[BWR]

Except in this case each casting of lesser vigor from the wand costs as much to most characters proportionally as it would cost you to get a single Hershey kiss. Level one wands are not expensive.

Except that wands are still a finite resource. The cost might not be a lot, but it's still a consideration. It doesn't matter how cheap something is if you don't have any money. It's still something that can be disjoined, stolen, broken, lost, given away, whatever. You don't have an infinite supply of them, so if you run out while in a situation where you are unable to get more, you're out of luck.
Sure, for medium plus level play, 1st level wands aren't hard to get hold of, but it is still a consideration.

[watchwood]

Check the item crafting rules. You can very easily create an item with unlimited uses of a 1st level spell for a few thousand gp.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If there's any abuse of infinite cantrips, it's using detect magic all the time to find magical traps and obsolete the rogue, not to mention that in PF detect magic can ID magic items without needing some special class feature or artificer's monocle or anything.
It's not abusive, but it might also irk you that infinite use means there is literally no reason to use the Light spell if you also have Dancing Lights available.

[Shinken]

Check the item crafting rules. You can very easily create an item with unlimited uses of a 1st level spell for a few thousand gp.

Watchwood, those are not rules, they are guidelines and they are quite explicitally DM dependent. Of course, you could simply get a wand of Infernal Healing instead.

[watchwood]

Watchwood, those are not rules, they are guidelines and they are quite explicitally DM dependent. Of course, you could simply get a wand of Infernal Healing instead.

The entire game is nothing but a series of guidelines. DM's houserule stuff all the time, but I've never played under a DM who had a problem with item crafting.

[qwertyu63]

My group and I have recently switched over to pathfinder and everything's great and all but I as the gm have run into one annoying issue... The party cleric abusing unlimited orisons to poke his severely injured teammates until they are fully healed(Cure Minor Wounds). Now, I like the unlimited 0 level casting... but I do not want my players to abuse this. What techniques might I use to ensure that this does not continue?

I do not want to make any rule changes.

The player behind the cleric is a reasonable, level headed guy, and would probably understand my frustration, but I do not yet want to directly address him on this. It would feel like I was scolding him, and I hate that.

As others have said, CMW doesn't exist in pathfinder.

That said, this isn't a problem nor is it abuse of anything. If the entire party is at full health for every fight, than you can plan your encounters around that. Heck, have your enemies do it too. Infinite healing is not a bad thing. In fact, if I ever play Pathfinder, I'd likely re-add that spell.

[Chronos]

I don't know about Pathfinder, but the 3.5 custom item guidelines say that an item of at-will Cure Minor Wounds would cost a few hundred thousand gold. Which is almost certainly higher than it should be, and it would be quite reasonable for a DM to decide to make it cheaper, but don't try to claim to use those guidelines as a justification for ignoring them entirely like that.

[Ravens_cry]

As others have said, CMW doesn't exist in pathfinder.

That said, this isn't a problem nor is it abuse of anything. If the entire party is at full health for every fight, than you can plan your encounters around that. Heck, have your enemies do it too. Infinite healing is not a bad thing. In fact, if I ever play Pathfinder, I'd likely re-add that spell.
Eh, I find it removes some dramatic tension and strategic choice. Things like, "We can either push forward and hope to catch them off guard while been less than full capacity ourselves, or we can rest and get resources back at the risk of them being better prepared when we get there." Of course, in a static game with set pieces and where everything moves at the speed of plot, it's less of an issue, but in a more dynamic game it could be.

[killem2]

Well it is. Good characters can cast evil spells. Neutral characters can easily get by casting them routinely without anyone batting an eye.

Doesn't apply to arcane casters anyway. Good ones can cast evil spells all day long.

[BWR]

Doesn't apply to arcane casters anyway. Good ones can cast evil spells all day long.

And there we have a big RAW fail - if you do stuff that's by nature evil (casting spells with the Evil descriptor) you should end up evil before long. Otherwise it's just another variation on "I'm not evil, I'm Chaotic Neutral".

[Ravens_cry]

And there we have a big RAW fail - if you do stuff that's by nature evil (casting spells with the Evil descriptor) you should end up evil before long. Otherwise it's just another variation on "I'm not evil, I'm Chaotic Neutral".

You do, eventually, as doing evil acts makes you evil, though at what point the tip over is is largely DM adjudicated, thank gods.

[Slipperychicken]

Doesn't healing up between fights make your job easier, since you can reasonably assume the PCs will go into most fights with max hit points?


I don't know about Pathfinder, but the 3.5 custom item guidelines say that an item of at-will Cure Minor Wounds would cost a few hundred thousand gold. Which is almost certainly higher than it should be, and it would be quite reasonable for a DM to decide to make it cheaper, but don't try to claim to use those guidelines as a justification for ignoring them entirely like that.

How did you arrive at such an astronomical sum? Here's what I'm getting:


Use-Activated or Continuous item = Spell level * Caster Level * 2,000gp

Spell Level = 0 -> considered to be 0.5
Caster Level = 1

0.5 * 1 * 2,000 = 1,000gp.

[Keneth]

I've never played under a DM who had a problem with item crafting.

Every DM should have a problem with custom item crafting by strictly following guidelines. That's not what the books recommend, and it's how we get continuous true strike items for 8k. :smallannoyed:

Don't get me wrong, I fully support cheap healing. I run a modified version of the strain/injury hp variant which allows the party to heal fairly easily several times per day without being dependent on magic.

Forcing a party to jump through hoops for healing might be fine for games with a focus on attrition, but in most cases it just bogs down the gameplay. There's not really much difference between "ok, you can rest now for a bit and heal your damage" and "ok, you can rest now for a bit and heal your damage, make sure to note how many wand charges you have left." It's just a matter of WBL and that's up to the DM anyway.

[Terazul]

Every DM should have a problem with custom item crafting by strictly following guidelines. That's what the books recommend, and it's how we get continuous true strike items for 8k. :smallannoyed:

Which hilariously only works once and then stops working forever (or you have to remove it and put it back on, true strike is a discharged effect). Making a use-activated one is cheaper and gets you more uses out of it, though still a standard action (probably your whole turn!) so you don't benefit from it until next round. :smallwink:

That said, spell doesn't exist, make him aware of it, though cheap healing isn't too big of a deal. They'll probably find a way around it eventually.

[sonofzeal]

Personally, I'm fond of Custom Magic Items of 1/day Mind Blank (24 hour duration, so w/e) or Gloves of Continuous Wraith Strike.




...and by "fond" I mean it'll result in books being thrown. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

As for the "healing is basically free anyway". It isn't at low levels where a 1st level wand is a significant expenditure, especially if you need to replace it occasionally. Lateron it's still a nice touch because it can make PCs nervous that, although a new wand may be cheap, the one they have with them is almost empty and they're not out of the dungeon yet... Maybe the Cleric will finally cast a real cure spell then!

If you have to replace it while still low level, you're already doing something terribly wrong anyway.


Every DM should have a problem with custom item crafting by strictly following guidelines. That's what the books recommend, and it's how we get continuous true strike items for 8k. :smallannoyed:

Forcing a party to jump through hoops for healing might be fine for games with a focus on attrition, but in most cases it just bogs down the gameplay. There's not really much difference between "ok, you can rest now for a bit and heal your damage" and "ok, you can rest now for a bit and heal your damage, make sure to note how many wand charges you have left." It's just a matter of WBL and that's up to the DM anyway.

Indeed. You're supposed to be engaged and an active party in negotiations with the party artificer. :smallbiggrin:

Agreed. It's boring at 1st level when you have to run away and spend an entire day healing up from a fight with a couple of dire rats a quarter of the way into the dungeon without even having stumbled upon the actual plot there and it'll still be boring at 15th level.


And there we have a big RAW fail - if you do stuff that's by nature evil (casting spells with the Evil descriptor) you should end up evil before long. Otherwise it's just another variation on "I'm not evil, I'm Chaotic Neutral".

You're forgetting about everything else the characters would be doing and being both rather myopic and hyper-focused on casting a single spell. Or using a wand of it. That's... not exactly an enviable position to be arguing from.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A first level wand costs 750gp. Split it four ways (since the whole party benefits) and you shouldn't have any problem replacing it when it runs out.

Restricting out of combat healing doesn't lead to more immersion or sense of danger. It leads to someone being forced into playing a cleric or forcing the cleric to turn into a healbot.
There might be exceptions but in general very few people actually have fun being a walking bandaid.

The only reason a cleric should cast "a real cure spell!" is to keep someone from dropping in combat or get someone back up from negatives. Spending actions and spell slots on keeping everyone topped off is a waste of resources and becomes infeasible quickly because of the way damage scales in relation to healing.

[Keneth]

Which hilariously only works once and then stops working forever

It works for your next attack, but since the effect doesn't end after the attack (as it is continuous), it also works for your next attack, and the attack after that, and the one after that.


Personally, I'm fond of Custom Magic Items of 1/day Mind Blank (24 hour duration, so w/e) or Gloves of Continuous Wraith Strike.

...and by "fond" I mean it'll result in books being thrown. :smalltongue:

Exactly, which is why the "rules" are guidelines and not actual rules. If someone wants a custom magic item, that's fine, but the GM always gets to decide if it can be made and how much it should cost.

[Pex]

My group uses a house rule of all healing is maximized when outside of combat. It still uses up the resource of whatever is doing the healing, but less is needed and allows for everyone to play on. The bad guys are always at full health for the non-first combat of the day anyway. With potions and wands doing full healing it also takes away some pressure from the party's healer.

The house rule gives us a nice consequence in one of our campaigns. I play an Oracle of Life while another player is a Mystic Theurge. With only 3 levels of cleric his Channel Energy is 2d6. He also doesn't have Selective Channeling feat which no one complains about. Out of combat he gets to use his otherwise useless channeling for 12 hit points of healing a pop. It saves my healing resources for in combat which have proven necessary and effective.

[sonofzeal]

It works for your next attack, but since the effect doesn't end after the attack (as it is continuous), it also works for your next attack, and the attack after that, and the one after that.

The spell is continuous - it doesn't expire with time. However, True Strike is special in that it can both expire (if you don't make the attack within the next round) and be expended (when you make the attack).

Even if you make many attacks in the round following a normal casting, when the duration should still be in effect, you don't gain the benefit of the spell on any past the first. Same thing here, except now the duration is effectively infinite.

[Terazul]

The spell is continuous - it doesn't expire with time. However, True Strike is special in that it can both expire (if you don't make the attack within the next round) and be expended (when you make the attack).

Even if you make many attacks in the round following a normal casting, when the duration should still be in effect, you don't gain the benefit of the spell on any past the first. Same thing here, except now the duration is effectively infinite.

Ding ding ding. Even if it was continuous, it specifies it only works on a single attack to begin with, too. This is why you go for Wraithstrike instead.

[Keneth]

The spell is continuous - it doesn't expire with time. However, True Strike is special in that it can both expire (if you don't make the attack within the next round) and be expended (when you make the attack).

Unless you can show me in the RAW where it says otherwise, continuous effects do not expire or get expended. That's why they're continuous.

Developers even list this item as an example of why the guidelines should not be used as actual rules.


Example: Rob's cleric wants to create a heavy mace with a continuous true strike ability, granting its wielder a +20 insight bonus on attack rolls. [...]

[Terazul]

Unless you can show me in the RAW where it says otherwise, continuous effects do not expire or get expended. That's why they're continuous.

Developers even list this item as an example of why the guidelines should not be used as actual rules.

Probably for the same reason you can't make a continuous Fireball. In any case, it has Duration: See text. Ok. It's normal duration is Until the end of the next round. Cool. The effect is, "your next single attack gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target". So, making it continuous changes the duration to "forever". The effect is still your next attack roll, and only that one.

...Though in fact, yeah, Since it doesn't even have a normal duration measured in rounds, you can't even make a continuous item of it to begin with (and again if you did, it'd suck). I dunno why people always bring it up when it's such a poor example. Just because the developers brought it up doesn't make it not still a very poor example. Sometimes they forget how their own abilities work.

[Keneth]

It has a duration. The fact that this duration is specified in the text rather than the specs, and that it's more complicated than simply "1 round", is irrelevant, as long as it's not instantaneous.

And I still don't see where you're getting the idea that a continuous effect can somehow be expended. Maybe you need to look up the word continuous in a dictionary.

[BWR]

You're forgetting about everything else the characters would be doing and being both rather myopic and hyper-focused on casting a single spell. Or using a wand of it. That's... not exactly an enviable position to be arguing from.

"That will totally make up for that orphanage we burned down."
I'm not forgetting about any such thing, and am only literally myopic. You're assuming that good and evil are merely flat points on a scale and you get a certain amount for any given action and can stay good, neutral or evil depending on how many points you get. That's a good way to end up evil. Using that sort of logic you can torture and rape people all day long for fun so long as you donate enough money to good causes.

[sonofzeal]

It has a duration. The fact that this duration is specified in the text rather than the specs, and that it's more complicated than simply "1 round", is irrelevant, as long as it's not instantaneous.

And I still don't see where you're getting the idea that a continuous effect can somehow be expended. Maybe you need to look up the word continuous in a dictionary.

Continuous: "forming an unbroken whole". In mathematics, lacking any discontinuities over the stated interval.


Neither requires "unending" though. Or, even if it's "unending", nothing changes the effect of the spell. The effect of the spell only applies to your next attack roll. You might still have the spell on you, in that it might get hit by a Dispel Magic and would show up with Magic Probe and Arcane Sight, but you don't benefit from it any more than you do on the subsequent attacks when casting it normally.

You're not going to argue that the spell boosts all attacks within the next round by 20, right? Same diff.

[Psyren]

Eh, I find it removes some dramatic tension and strategic choice. Things like, "We can either push forward and hope to catch them off guard while been less than full capacity ourselves, or we can rest and get resources back at the risk of them being better prepared when we get there." Of course, in a static game with set pieces and where everything moves at the speed of plot, it's less of an issue, but in a more dynamic game it could be.

This. Unlimited healing does make a difference for many groups, even when the TO-happy crowd couldn't care less.

[Keneth]

"You're assuming that good and evil are merely flat points on a scale and you get a certain amount for any given action and can stay good, neutral or evil depending on how many points you get.

I can totally see the scale with flat points (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules#TOC-Forced-Alignment-Change) though. :smallbiggrin:

[Zanos]

This. Unlimited healing does make a difference for many groups, even when the TO-happy crowd couldn't care less.
Wands of CLW aren't exactly TO. It's pretty cheap to heal people up out of combat.

[Coidzor]

"That will totally make up for that orphanage we burned down."
I'm not forgetting about any such thing, and am only literally myopic. You're assuming that good and evil are merely flat points on a scale and you get a certain amount for any given action and can stay good, neutral or evil depending on how many points you get. That's a good way to end up evil. Using that sort of logic you can torture and rape people all day long for fun so long as you donate enough money to good causes.

Casting an evil spell, where it has been covered, has either been very minor or almost negligible. Regularly casting lots of evil spells such as the designer's imagined Dread Necromancer, still allows for one to easily maintain a Neutral alignment along the moral axis. So unless Pathfinder's re-invented the wheel on that front, the existing body of thought is that you'd have to actually be doing the rest of those bad things to change alignment rather than being generally heroic and using Infernal Healing and occasionally summoning the odd Fiendish Wossname. Also, the casting of good aligned spells should counterbalance casting evil spells, especially given the actual uses and effects.

So, have fun with the completely irrelevant strawman you seem to have picked up from somewhere completely outside of what we were actually talking about. :smallconfused:


This. Unlimited healing does make a difference for many groups, even when the TO-happy crowd couldn't care less.

If the DM can't create a situation where the heroes would want to press forward rather than take a half-minute to 2 minute break between fights, that's on the DM, really.

And if they can't create a situation which requires action sooner than a 15 minute break, well, then they're just letting wizards who've left spell slots empty prepare exactly the right spell for a situation. :smalltongue:

Pretty sure cutting down on access to healing items and forcing characters to spend spell slots on healing just increases the pressure on the party to engage in the 15 minute adventuring day though, so it's kind of at cross-purposes.

[Keneth]

Neither requires "unending" though. Or, even if it's "unending", nothing changes the effect of the spell.

Continuous (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/continuous): 1: marked by uninterrupted extension in space, time, or sequence
Continuous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/continuous): 1. uninterrupted in time; without cessation

It's the effect that is continuous, not (merely) its duration. True strike applies to your next attack. If you perform that attack, its effect ends. A continuous effect cannot end, therefore it keeps applying to your next attack.


The effect of the spell only applies to your next attack roll. You might still have the spell on you, in that it might get hit by a Dispel Magic and would show up with Magic Probe and Arcane Sight, but you don't benefit from it any more than you do on the subsequent attacks when casting it normally.

What exactly is the effect of a true strike spell that has been expended? Nothing? The effect of a true strike spell is always a bonus to your next attack. Expending it merely ends its duration and continuous effects cannot end.

[Psyren]

If the DM can't create a situation where the heroes would want to press forward rather than take a half-minute to 2 minute break between fights, that's on the DM, really.

Except you can cast while moving (i.e. move+standard), and in fact the party will be inclined to do so since the rogue will be needing 30ft. increments to check for traps anyway. So it's not about "taking a 2 minute break." You end up losing all that tension for no opportunity cost. It's not an interesting choice.



Pretty sure cutting down on access to healing items and forcing characters to spend spell slots on healing just increases the pressure on the party to engage in the 15 minute adventuring day though, so it's kind of at cross-purposes.

Laying up for 8 hours (or much, much longer - divine casters working the way they do) in the middle of a dungeon is much easier to discourage/punish.

[Coidzor]

Except you can cast while moving (i.e. move+standard), and in fact the party will be inclined to do so since the rogue will be needing 30ft. increments to check for traps anyway. So it's not about "taking a 2 minute break." You end up losing all that tension for no opportunity cost. It's not an interesting choice.

Laying up for 8 hours in the middle of a dungeon is much easier to discourage/punish.

So you didn't have the tension in the first place to be able to lose it anyway because the Rogue was having to stop to check for traps. :smallamused:

Doesn't fully negate the impact on the mindset either, though. Besides, it's stating the obvious to point out that attrition is a sometimes food, since otherwise you just end up with player fatigue from things getting repetitive.

And the more one squeezes and tightens the screws, the more insecure one makes one's self look as a DM, to boot.

[Psyren]

So you didn't have the tension in the first place to be able to lose it anyway because the Rogue was having to stop to check for traps. :smallamused:

We're talking Pathfinder here - you don't "stop" to check for traps, it's a move action and works line of sight. Basically as long as everyone isn't charging full-tilt down the corridor you can do it.

It looks something like this (panel 1). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html)

In 3.5. it would slow the group to a crawl, but not here.



Doesn't fully negate the impact on the mindset either, though. Besides, it's stating the obvious to point out that attrition is a sometimes food, since otherwise you just end up with player fatigue from things getting repetitive.

Well sure, sometimes they're going to have the time to sit and patch up. Doesn't mean it shouldn't cost some wand charges though.

[Coidzor]

We're talking Pathfinder here - you don't "stop" to check for traps, it's a move action and works line of sight. Basically as long as everyone isn't charging full-tilt down the corridor you can do it.

It looks something like this (panel 1). (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0855.html)

In 3.5. it would slow the group to a crawl, but not here.



Well sure, sometimes they're going to have the time to sit and patch up. Doesn't mean it shouldn't cost some wand charges though.

Then what and why on earth were you arguing about it combining with proceeding at a slower pace and healing as one travels for if it doesn't actually slow the party down at all in Pathfinder? It certainly seems like you've already lost the tension if you're not able to really hustle but have to deal with traps along the way.

Ah, my mistake, I thought you were arguing on the side of the person who didn't like wand charge healing to be kosher either.

[Psyren]

Ah, my mistake, I thought you were arguing on the side of the person who didn't like wand charge healing to be kosher either.

No, I'm fine with wand charge healing, or spell-slot healing. It costs resources. (It's also generally quicker to heal up that way than sitting around for 2 minutes plinking for 1 HP at a time -that's what I was getting at :smalltongue:)

[sonofzeal]

Continuous (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/continuous): 1: marked by uninterrupted extension in space, time, or sequence
Continuous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/continuous): 1. uninterrupted in time; without cessation
Surprise surprise, words have multiple meanings. "Continuous" generally means "without interruption" - it doesn't stop and then start again. That meets your definitions and doesn't contradict what I was saying either.


What exactly is the effect of a true strike spell that has been expended? Nothing?

Actually, reading it again, the effect is a negation of miss chance from concealment. That portion is in a different clause, and would be applied over the whole duration. Which is somewhat reasonable as a custom magic item, given that it consumes a slot.

[Chronos]

Quoth Slipperychicken:

How did you arrive at such an astronomical sum?
From the custom-item guidelines. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPieceValues)

Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values.
The most similar item to an at-will item of Cure Minor Wounds is a Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration), which costs 90,000 GP. The at-will CMW is much better than the ring, since it heals quicker (30x quicker at 20th level, even more so at lower levels), doesn't take up a body slot, and can be used for the entire party. Therefore, it ought to cost more.


Quoth Coidzor:

Casting an evil spell, where it has been covered, has either been very minor or almost negligible.
Not true. According to Fiendish Codex II, any lawful character who's cast [Evil] spells nine times or more in his life is guaranteed to go to Hell when he dies, no matter what acts of good he's done in his life. It's in principle possible to remove corruption points to avoid this fate, but in practice, it's usually extremely difficult to do so for [Evil] spells, since it requires giving up all the benefits that the evil act gave you.

[Slipperychicken]

The most similar item to an at-will item of Cure Minor Wounds is a Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration), which costs 90,000 GP. The at-will CMW is much better than the ring, since it heals quicker (30x quicker at 20th level, even more so at lower levels), doesn't take up a body slot, and can be used for the entire party. Therefore, it ought to cost more.


Cure Minor Wounds doesn't do the limb-regeneration effect, so I don't think the two are comparable.

[Anlashok]

Yeah the fiendish codex has some really really stupid things in it

[sleepyphoenixx]

The most similar item to an at-will item of Cure Minor Wounds is a Ring of Regeneration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#regeneration), which costs 90,000 GP. The at-will CMW is much better than the ring, since it heals quicker (30x quicker at 20th level, even more so at lower levels), doesn't take up a body slot, and can be used for the entire party. Therefore, it ought to cost more.


With the difference being that the ring regenerates limbs and doesn't take an action to use. It's also severely overpriced because it's practically useless in combat situations and out of combat healing can be accomplished much cheaper.
Despite its name it doesn't actually give you regeneration (which would make it worth the money). It just increases your natural healing by a factor of 24. The limb regeneration doesn't come up often enough to justify the price tag.

Making out of combat healing cost the WBL of a 12th level character isn't balanced, no matter how you look at it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This. Unlimited healing does make a difference for many groups, even when the TO-happy crowd couldn't care less.

Yeah, it allows the martials to actually fight "all day." Without CLW wands and such, they'd be the first ones begging to stop and rest at mid to high levels, cause a wizard has way more spell slots than a fighter has hit points to lose to attacks.

So you are correct, it does make a big difference.

[Psyren]

Yeah, it allows the martials to actually fight "all day." Without CLW wands and such, they'd be the first ones begging to stop and rest at mid to high levels, cause a wizard has way more spell slots than a fighter has hit points to lose to attacks.

So you are correct, it does make a big difference.

CLW wands aren't "unlimited healing." They're just healing. I never said I was against healing.

[Keneth]

Surprise surprise, words have multiple meanings.

So, we're gonna ignore the obvious meaning of "continuing without interruption" to fit some niche interpretation in which continuous spells can somehow be expended because that's totally not an interruption. Yeah, whatever. :smallannoyed:


Actually, reading it again, the effect is a negation of miss chance from concealment. That portion is in a different clause, and would be applied over the whole duration.

Oh, so since that clause is not connected to the actual attack, that means the effect doesn't end when you make the attack. Basically, once you cast true strike once, you get a +20 insight bonus on your next attack, and can ignore concealment forever. I wish I had known that sooner, before I took Blind-Fight. Now you're just being silly. The "next attack" part is not a spell charge, it is the spell's duration, or more precisely "immediate future during your next attack if it is made before the end of the next round". And during that duration you get a +20 insight bonus on the attack and can ignore concealment. If the effect is continuous, the bonuses apply continuously to all attacks, that's all there is to it. If you can point me to any RAW that says otherwise, feel free to do so.

[StreamOfTheSky]

CLW wands aren't "unlimited healing." They're just healing. I never said I was against healing.

Not literally unlimited, but in a typical dungeon having a wand or two of CLW basically is.

[Slipperychicken]

Not literally unlimited, but in a typical dungeon having a wand or two of CLW basically is.

A single CLW wand can carry you through multiple levels, especially around the 1-6 range.

And that's saying nothing about an Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing) wand. That's 10hp per charge, almost double what you'll get from a CLW wand. There are things it won't heal, but those are pretty rare. Ironically, it makes arcane casters pretty good at filling the healing role.

[Psyren]

Not literally unlimited, but in a typical dungeon having a wand or two of CLW basically is.

And I repeat, I have no problem with wands. If the players want to have them on hand all the time, they need to expend resources to do so (gold, crafting feats) or if they try to buy/find them, the DM can control the supply. Either way, there are balance levers in place to offset the benefit provided by the healing. To ramp up the tension temporarily, wands can be confiscated, stolen or sundered.

When they decided to create at-will orisons, removing CMW was a good decision. DMs who don't care can easily bring it back in, but it doesn't need to be there baseline.

[StreamOfTheSky]

A single CLW wand can carry you through multiple levels, especially around the 1-6 range.

And that's saying nothing about an Infernal Healing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing) wand. That's 10hp per charge, almost double what you'll get from a CLW wand. There are things it won't heal, but those are pretty rare. Ironically, it makes arcane casters pretty good at filling the healing role.

The best I ever got was 1 and a 3/4 wands of CLW expended; couldn't get the last one drained out.
That was when the party got captured and did a jail break in a massive complex. No equipment the first two encounters (but they weren't too hard; I'm not that evil...); no rogue or the like so they missed EVERY secret passage shortcut (that the guards made good use of), triggered EVERY trap, and had to make a ton of noise and waste lots of time smashing down steel bulkhead doors that were shut to impede there progress rather than just lock pick them. Because of that, the guards knew exactly where they were at all times and multiple easy encounters assimilated into one giant encounter after another of guards from different areas all joined up with make shift defenses setup and prep rounds for casting. The party seriously couldn't have bungled their way out any worse, it was comical how much they got stabbed, shot, burnt, etc... But, they had those wands.... About 6 super high EL (due to combining of forces and favorable ground/cover) encounters and innumerable traps later, they crawled their way out, fought the boss, and....holy crap they still had some charges left!

For what it's worth, they were level 6 gestalt at the time. Yes, gestalt. In a party of 4 they couldn't be bothered among their 8+ classes to have anyone cover the rogue role and I had let it slide the entire campaign by avoiding using much traps and such. Not in there, though. :smallwink:
I'm sure it's possible to get a party to burn through their wands of CLW and still have to fight more encounters. But it sure would take one hell of a concerted effort.

[Anlashok]

effect of the spell only applies to your next attack roll.

Yes, the effect of the spell only applies to your next attack roll.

And then, because it's a continuous item, the effect is still there when you get to your next attack roll after the first. So it applies there. And then when you get to your third attack, because it's a continuous item, the effect is still there, so your third attack gets the benefit too.

It's almost like "continuous" meant that it was... you know, "continuous".



You're not going to argue that the spell boosts all attacks within the next round by 20, right? Same diff.
Actually no. Because the spell has specifically defined parameters for how long it lasts. In turn, a continuous item removes those parameters and makes it continuous.

The correct analogy here would be arguing that a continuous item of Mage Armor does absolutely nothing after an hour passes, which is your position on the subject. After all, the effect ends after an hour (per level)! It says so right in the spell's description!


Not true. According to Fiendish Codex II, any lawful character who's cast [Evil] spells nine times or more in his life is guaranteed to go to Hell when he dies, no matter what acts of good he's done in his life.
Just to re-iterate, this is an utterly absurd idea.

A cleric healer, nine times across his entire life, casts a spell to quickly perform triage or to make sure someone is still alive before administering treatment or to make sure someone is definitely dead before having their body carted away....and because of this he is utterly and irrevocably damned to hell?

[Slipperychicken]

A cleric healer, nine times across his entire life, casts a spell to quickly perform triage or to make sure someone is still alive before administering treatment or to make sure someone is definitely dead before having their body carted away....and because of this he is utterly and irrevocably damned to hell?

To be fair, a Good-aligned god wouldn't even let him prepare [Evil] spells.


Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells
A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own or his deity’s (if he has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

So yeah, in D&D, that [Evil] tag is serious business. Every [Evil] spell cast, and every evil act committed is a victory for the forces of darkness. The BoED says something to that effect: Evil acts, even in the service of the greater good, are evil and help promote evilness in some vague cosmic way. Personally, I imagine it's some kind of WoD-style thing where the struggles in the other planes are shaped by mortal thoughts and actions.

[TuggyNE]

Just to re-iterate, this is an utterly absurd idea.

A cleric healer, nine times across his entire life, casts a spell to quickly perform triage or to make sure someone is still alive before administering treatment or to make sure someone is definitely dead before having their body carted away....and because of this he is utterly and irrevocably damned to hell?

The correct answer here is not to ask "someone who casts deathwatch goes to hell because it's [evil]?" but to ask "why is deathwatch marked [evil]?" The rules dysfunction is certainly present, but you have misidentified its source in this situation.

[ryu]

The correct answer here is not to ask "someone who casts deathwatch goes to hell because it's [evil]?" but to ask "why is deathwatch marked [evil]?" The rules dysfunction is certainly present, but you have misidentified its source in this situation.

The vast majority of the [evil] spells that aren't just meanie flavor versions of normal spells don't make sense as evil either. I do mean the vast majority of them by the way. Most of necromancy got completely shafted on that front and on the same note had all healing banished from it because necromancy is the evil spell school. Goes right down to creating undead by throwing neutrally aligned negative energy into an already dead corpse the soul isn't even inside anymore being cosmically bad because vague arbitrary reasons.

[Telok]

The BoED says something to that effect: Evil acts, even in the service of the greater good, are evil and help promote evilness in some vague cosmic way.

Because casting Protection from Good while trying to subdue a mind-controlled 1st level LG Aristocrat is an evil act and zapping him with a Maximized Fell Draining Vampritic Touch is totally neutral.

Really the whole thing about infinite cantrip healing comes down to style. Say your party goes into a dungeon and gets into a fight with some trolls, you win but everyone has only one hit point left. One style has the characters say "That was a tough fight, we can't take another beating like that. We'd better leave now and come back later with more information and supplies. If there are any more trolls we don't want to be surprised like that again." The other style goes something like "Dude, awesome fight! Let's sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya for five minutes and then go kill some mind flayers!"

It's a style thing. If yor preference is for a strategic game that involves planning, preparation, and taking calculated risks then you want it one way. If you like straight up tatical combats without long term consequences then you want it another way.

[TuggyNE]

The vast majority of the [evil] spells that aren't just meanie flavor versions of normal spells don't make sense as evil either. I do mean the vast majority of them by the way. Most of necromancy got completely shafted on that front and on the same note had all healing banished from it because necromancy is the evil spell school. Goes right down to creating undead by throwing neutrally aligned negative energy into an already dead corpse the soul isn't even inside anymore being cosmically bad because vague arbitrary reasons.

Healing should be in Necromancy, sure, but other than that, I disagree; any spell that can prevent someone's resurrection because it is apparently using their soul to power a magical construct is pretty seriously questionable if not outright [evil]. And undead creation spells do exactly that.

Incidentally, your math seems to be off, since in Core only 9 out of 45 Necromancy spells are [evil], and one of those is almost universally considered a printing error. Command undead, circle of death, enervation, and magic jar, to name a few candidates one might expect to receive such overzealous treatment as you describe, are not among that select group. Curious.


Because casting Protection from Good while trying to subdue a mind-controlled 1st level LG Aristocrat is an evil act and zapping him with a Maximized Fell Draining Vampritic Touch is totally neutral.

Since all the protection from <alignment> versions are equally good at suppressing mental control, choosing the [evil] version is, in fact, consistent with supporting cosmic Evil in some fashion.

Obviously, it is possible to commit an evil act with a spell that is not [evil], but making any kind of argument against the meaning of [evil] based on that is fallacious.

Anyway, the original question has been correctly answered in several different ways, so I guess we're mostly done here?

[ryu]

Healing should be in Necromancy, sure, but other than that, I disagree; any spell that can prevent someone's resurrection because it is apparently using their soul to power a magical construct is pretty seriously questionable if not outright [evil]. And undead creation spells do exactly that.

Incidentally, your math seems to be off, since in Core only 9 out of 45 Necromancy spells are [evil], and one of those is almost universally considered a printing error. Command undead, circle of death, enervation, and magic jar, to name a few candidates one might expect to receive such overzealous treatment as you describe, are not among that select group. Curious.



Since all the protection from <alignment> versions are equally good at suppressing mental control, choosing the [evil] version is, in fact, consistent with supporting cosmic Evil in some fashion.

Obviously, it is possible to commit an evil act with a spell that is not [evil], but making any kind of argument against the meaning of [evil] based on that is fallacious.

Anyway, the original question has been correctly answered in several different ways, so I guess we're mostly done here?

I did not say that a majority of necromancy was [evil] I stated that most unique [evil] spells didn't actually make sense as evil. I also insinuated that this phenomenon was at its most prominent in necromancy. Further Undead are not powered by the souls of the previous people. They're powered by negative energy from an entirely neutral plane. The preventing of ressing is an entirely separate thing built into the clauses of the various resurrecting spells. I personally attribute that to celestial politics on the part of Pelor the burning hate.

[Chronos]

I never said that hundreds of thousands of GP was a fair price for an unlimited-healing item. I said that that's what the custom item guidelines suggest it should cost. If you ignore the guidelines, you can price it lower, and you realistically probably should do so. That doesn't mean you should price it all the way down to 900 GP, though.

Really, there are three approaches a DM can take: They can decide that they don't want infinite healing at all, they can decide that they'll allow it, but only if the players decide they want to invest significantly to get it, or they can decide that they want the players to have it. In no case should a 900 GP infinite healing item exist: In the first two approaches, that's way too cheap, and in the third case, it shouldn't cost anything at all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I never said that hundreds of thousands of GP was a fair price for an unlimited-healing item. I said that that's what the custom item guidelines suggest it should cost. If you ignore the guidelines, you can price it lower, and you realistically probably should do so. That doesn't mean you should price it all the way down to 900 GP, though.

Really, there are three approaches a DM can take: They can decide that they don't want infinite healing at all, they can decide that they'll allow it, but only if the players decide they want to invest significantly to get it, or they can decide that they want the players to have it. In no case should a 900 GP infinite healing item exist: In the first two approaches, that's way too cheap, and in the third case, it shouldn't cost anything at all.

Unlimited healing sounds really broken until you consider that it heals 1hp for a standard action. Aside from not running out it's completely inferior to a wand of CLW.
It still has all the same limitations otherwise (only feasible out of combat, can be taken away, takes time you might not have).

You can't make it much more expensive than 900-1000gp or there would be no point to ever buying it over just stocking up on one or two CLW wands (per person if you're really worried about running out).

Some people argue that limited healing makes the game more exciting. In my experience however all it does is turn people away from playing a spellcaster with access to healing spells because they don't want to be reduced to a walking bandage. Honestly, i'd rather suck it up and sacrifice a feat for Craft Wand before i play one of those if the DM limits the availability of ******* 1st level wands.

[Psyren]

Really the whole thing about infinite cantrip healing comes down to style. Say your party goes into a dungeon and gets into a fight with some trolls, you win but everyone has only one hit point left. One style has the characters say "That was a tough fight, we can't take another beating like that. We'd better leave now and come back later with more information and supplies. If there are any more trolls we don't want to be surprised like that again." The other style goes something like "Dude, awesome fight! Let's sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya for five minutes and then go kill some mind flayers!"

There's several other scenarios that could result besides "full heal kumbaya" and "abandon ship."

"Guys, I can heal the fighter and myself to full, but healing the rogue and wizard will eat into some of the buffs I prepared like magic vestment. Which ones do you think I should convert?"
"Guys, I can heal us all to full, but that CLW wand/partially-charged CLW wand we found/bought will be spent; it'll be some time before we can replace it."
"Guys, I can heal us all to about 60% health, or fully heal the barbarian and paladin while everyone else gets healed to about 40%."

Situations like these create not just strategic considerations, but roleplay opportunities as well. The very first roleplay consideration is whether the cleric even chooses to lay these options out, rather than just healing everyone however they see fit and leaving their exact spell layout a secret. Secondly, in scenario 3 the Paladin might very well refuse the healing, selflessly requesting that it go to someone else while she soldiers on - or at least request that others be fully healed first and she will accept whatever is left over. Said paladin might not even have LoH uses left for herself. Or the group's Belkar (i.e. selfish backup melee) might demand they get fully healed, justifying their stance by saying the ranged classes ("ears") will be in less danger.

It creates a trifecta of metagame resource management, atmospheric tension and character interaction that you can't really get outside of tabletop.



Some people argue that limited healing makes the game more exciting. In my experience however all it does is turn people away from playing a spellcaster with access to healing spells because they don't want to be reduced to a walking bandage.

All I can say is that I'm glad I don't play in games where limited resources make people not want to play spellcasters :smallconfused: It's really a fundamental assumption of the model.

[sleepyphoenixx]

All I can say is that I'm glad I don't play in games where limited resources make people not want to play spellcasters :smallconfused: It's really a fundamental assumption of the model.

That's not what i said. What i said is that there's no point to playing a cleric if the only spells you're ever allowed to cast are cures.
Which is what happens when players don't have a source of out of combat healing, at least in my experience.
You can't "waste" those cleric spells when they're the only healing available after all or you get the 15 minute adventuring day.

The way i see it CLW wands are effectively unlimited healing. They're cheap enough to carry spares at all but the lowest levels and CLW is a 1st level spell for lots of classes so they should be readily available unless you have absolutely no access to any kind of civilization. It just makes no sense to arbitrarily limit wands of this one spell.

In a world where such wands are unavailable it stands to reason that any halfway competent adventuring spellcaster would get Craft Wand asap.
It only takes a day (8 hours, actually) to craft a new one. Or are the players forbidden from crafting their own wands, too?

You don't walk into a fight without a source of healing any more than you'd walk into a desert without a water source.
If you want your players to operate on limited healing to add tension you can take that away via plot but it shouldn't be a general state of affairs.

[Psyren]

That's not what i said. What i said is that there's no point to playing a cleric if the only spells you're ever allowed to cast are cures.

I can't think of a scenario where this would ever be the case anyway, unless that was what the player truly wanted to do. Part of the cleric player's responsibility - like every other spellcaster - is managing/triaging their daily resource appropriately, and making judgement calls on when a buff/summon might be more helpful to the party's objective than another cure. Ultimately it is their decision and nobody else's.

And even if a player does decide to convert every last spell into healing, that's his choice, plus they'll still have domain slots (unless they took the Healing domain, in which case cure-spam was probably what they signed up for anyway.)



The way i see it CLW wands are effectively unlimited healing. They're cheap enough to carry spares at all but the lowest levels and CLW is a 1st level spell for lots of classes so they should be readily available unless you have absolutely no access to any kind of civilization. It just makes no sense to arbitrarily limit wands of this one spell.

In a world where such wands are unavailable it stands to reason that any halfway competent adventuring spellcaster would get Craft Wand asap.
It only takes a day (8 hours, actually) to craft a new one. Or are the players forbidden from crafting their own wands, too?

For now the fourth time, I said I was fine with the cleric player (or at least, one of the players) spending a feat on Craft Wand :smalltongue: a feat is a far more valuable expenditure than the gold to buy even a dozen wands.

CLW wands do get relatively cheaper as the party rises in level but (a) hit point and damage totals rise as well and (b) the party may not always have ready access to Wendy's Wand Emporium (her Baator storefront was short-lived.) And I haven't even gotten to high-level threats like ongoing damage or Vile damage that can persist when combat ends. All of these can burn through wands even faster and keep their limited nature relevant.


You don't walk into a fight without a source of healing any more than you'd walk into a desert without a water source.
If you want your players to operate on limited healing to add tension you can take that away via plot but it shouldn't be a general state of affairs.

"Limited healing" just means there should be an opportunity cost. The crafting feat to make your own wands is a good example, as is the 8 hours and peaceful environment needed to do so in the field. Healing from spell slots is another example, as those spell slots that could have contained something else for the fight.

But inexhaustible slots that were never going to be used for anything else useful anyway have no tradeoff. It's not interesting for either side.

[icefractal]

Really the whole thing about infinite cantrip healing comes down to style. Say your party goes into a dungeon and gets into a fight with some trolls, you win but everyone has only one hit point left. One style has the characters say "That was a tough fight, we can't take another beating like that. We'd better leave now and come back later with more information and supplies. If there are any more trolls we don't want to be surprised like that again." The other style goes something like "Dude, awesome fight! Let's sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya for five minutes and then go kill some mind flayers!"Biased much? :smallamused:

There certainly are different styles, but that's not exactly a fair way to categorize them. I mean, I could phrase it like this:

One style has the characters say "Well, we fought a goblin and I lost a whole 3 hp. Better go back to town." The other styles goes something like "That fight was close - too close. But we can't give up now, the village is depending on us. As soon as we catch our breath, we need to keep pushing forward, before that missing sentry is noticed."

But that wouldn't really be fair either. :smalltongue:


Personally, most groups I've played in have gone for a faster-paced style where when you go to do something, you don't make a series of exploratory raids with trips back to town between, you get in there and finish it.

That doesn't mean we're doing "combat as sport" though. We're doing "combat as special forces team", where you have a mission, you don't try to bivouac or gradually whittle down the foes, you get in fast and get out fast, because **** has hit the fan and there's no time to lose.


Although even then - unlimited healing item for 1000 gp = nope. Those guidelines have their gaps, and that's one of them. If I want full recovery after combat, I'll just make that a house-rule, not kludge into it with badly priced items.

Re: The Ring of Regeneration - Pathfinder's version is much less useless, healing 1 point/round (and an equal amount of nonlethal). With that as a basis, I could see one that required active use and didn't regenerate missing parts being less than that. Although still not 1K or 2K.

[pi4t]

Interestingly, there IS a way to get unlimited healing in Pathfinder using class abilities, which my group discovered by accident. The Vitalist (the psionic equivalent of the cleric) can redirect any regained hit points from one member of their collective to another. This explicitely includes fast healing. Just have one player play a race with good fast healing, or failing that recruit a creature with fast healing to follow you around, and you never need to worry about out of combat healing again!

[Svata]

Except for the minor issue that it's [evil] though

Because healing at a rate of 1 hp/round is absolutely DIABOLICAL.

[Slipperychicken]

Because healing at a rate of 1 hp/round is absolutely DIABOLICAL.

To be fair, though, it's powered by unholy water and devils' blood.

[Kudaku]

I never did understand why Golarion's goddess of Healing refuses to offer her clerics the most effective healing spell in the system, or at the very least offers a "good" alternative of equal power.

[Coidzor]

I never did understand why Golarion's goddess of Healing refuses to offer her clerics the most effective healing spell in the system, or at the very least offers a "good" alternative of equal power.

Because Evil will always triumph because Good is dumb.

[Psyren]

I never did understand why Golarion's goddess of Healing refuses to offer her clerics the most effective healing spell in the system, or at the very least offers a "good" alternative of equal power.

Perhaps the use of fiendish blood and unholy water is precisely why it is so effective. Lots of fiends are capable of recovering from injury very quickly - regardless of how efficient that might be, it's easy to see why the good deities wouldn't be thrilled with copying that method.

[Kudaku]

Perhaps the use of fiendish blood and unholy water is precisely why it is so effective. Lots of fiends are capable of recovering from injury very quickly - regardless of how efficient that might be, it's easy to see why the good deities wouldn't be thrilled with copying that method.

Holy and Unholy water are frequently interchangeable depending on the alignment of the spell. Fiendish blood is a fair point, but there are celestials with regeneration and the tears of angels are supposed to have miraculous properties - it seems like a fair trade.

Also, it should be noted that the spell requires either unholy water or devil's blood - not both.

[Slipperychicken]

I never did understand why Golarion's goddess of Healing refuses to offer her clerics the most effective healing spell in the system, or at the very least offers a "good" alternative of equal power.

Well, for one thing, Clerics cannot prepare spells with alignment tags opposed to their gods' alignment.

[Kudaku]

Well, for one thing, Clerics cannot prepare spells with alignment tags opposed to their gods' alignment.

...Which is why I mentioned a "good" alternative. "Celestial Healing" would be a welcome addition.

[mcv]

It does, and it's on most arcane casters spell lists too (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Infernal%20Healing)

Yes, but that doesn't mean it's actually available. It's not core. I asked my GM (it'd be totally appropriate for my devil summoning wizard), but he didn't allow it, which is totally reasonable.

[Psyren]

Holy and Unholy water are frequently interchangeable depending on the alignment of the spell. Fiendish blood is a fair point, but there are celestials with regeneration and the tears of angels are supposed to have miraculous properties - it seems like a fair trade.

Also, it should be noted that the spell requires either unholy water or devil's blood - not both.

Holy stuff like that - angel tears, unicorn blood, pegasus feathers etc. - tends to be thematically much rarer or difficult to acquire than fiendish variants. Typically the fiends want their humors as widespread as possible for corruption purposes, while the holy articles are mythologically more precious (and, often, more potent.)

[Kudaku]

Holy stuff like that - angel tears, unicorn blood, pegasus feathers etc. - tends to be thematically much rarer or difficult to acquire than fiendish variants. Typically the fiends want their humors as widespread as possible for corruption purposes, while the holy articles are mythologically more precious (and, often, more potent.)

Holy Water is fairly common. The 25 gp price cost would make it somewhat less appealing, though there are ways around that. And I'd say quite a few spell components are rare or difficult to acquire but there's still gallons of saltwater, firefly wings, bat guano and devil's blood in your typical 2 lb spell component pouch.

[Psyren]

Holy Water is fairly common. The 25 gp price cost would make it somewhat less appealing, though there are ways around that. And I'd say quite a few spell components are rare or difficult to acquire but there's still gallons of saltwater, firefly wings, bat guano and devil's blood in your typical 2 lb spell component pouch.

This falls under the heading of artifacts and Vecna's eyelashes being in your pouch; RAWtarded and easily dismissed by any competent DM.

[Coidzor]

This falls under the heading of artifacts and Vecna's eyelashes being in your pouch; RAWtarded and easily dismissed by any competent DM.

What, never having to spend game time on gathering bat guano unless it's an active plot point? :smalltongue:

[Anlashok]

What I never understood was that if, by raw, minor components had no cost and you were just supposed to assume you always had them on hand...

Why even list those in the first place? If we're supposed to ignore spell components that aren't explicitly important or pricy... Why are they there? Why not just only call out specific components if it's part of that cost?

[ryu]

What I never understood was that if, by raw, minor components had no cost and you were just supposed to assume you always had them on hand...

Why even list those in the first place? If we're supposed to ignore spell components that aren't explicitly important or pricy... Why are they there? Why not just only call out specific components if it's part of that cost?

Because ALL OF THEM are horrible puns.

[Coidzor]

Because ALL OF THEM are horrible puns.

At least the old ones. I think they gradually petered off and just kept up with it without really knowing why.

[Slipperychicken]

Why even list those in the first place? If we're supposed to ignore spell components that aren't explicitly important or pricy... Why are they there? Why not just only call out specific components if it's part of that cost?

I think it's a legacy thing, back from some olden days when you actually had to track them. I've seen rules (houserules?) where you're supposed to spend ~5gp on components each time you stop in town, or else you run out.

Also, it gives arcane spellcasters a weakness comparable to a Cleric's holy symbol. And some of those puns are quite funny.

[Psyren]

What, never having to spend game time on gathering bat guano unless it's an active plot point? :smalltongue:

I can't think of any of my DMs who would consider rodent feces and fiend blood to be equally trivial reagents to collect :smalltongue:

[ryu]

I can't think of any of my DMs who would consider rodent feces and fiend blood to be equally trivial reagents to collect :smalltongue:

Eh by mid level I'd feel weak if I couldn't make a simple task of self harvesting. Less nasty too.

[Anlashok]

I can't think of any of my DMs who would consider rodent feces and fiend blood to be equally trivial reagents to collect :smalltongue:

BoVD has a spell whose component is something like the severed... something of a good cleric and it's flagged as -- reagent too.


I think it's a legacy thing, back from some olden days when you actually had to track them. I've seen rules (houserules?) where you're supposed to spend ~5gp on components each time you stop in town, or else you run out.

Also, it gives arcane spellcasters a weakness comparable to a Cleric's holy symbol. And some of those puns are quite funny.
I get the legacy part and I get the spell component part. It just seems like you could just as easily say that spells flagged as such require a wizard to have access to a component pouch and leave it at that. Then you'd only list meaningful components and we'd not have dumb things like spell component pouches full of legendary artifacts or, as said above, vermin poop and demon blood being just as common.


Holy stuff like that - angel tears, unicorn blood, pegasus feathers etc. - tends to be thematically much rarer or difficult to acquire than fiendish variants. Typically the fiends want their humors as widespread as possible for corruption purposes, while the holy articles are mythologically more precious (and, often, more potent.)

That and now I'm imagining a church having a unicorn chained in their basement so they could slowly bleed it for reagents.

I honestly don't think "Angel Tears" can ever be a reagent for a good aligned spell.


Because ALL OF THEM are horrible puns.

All the more reason to burn them all.

[Deophaun]

Why even list those in the first place? If we're supposed to ignore spell components that aren't explicitly important or pricy... Why are they there? Why not just only call out specific components if it's part of that cost?
It actually can have a purpose. A PbP I'm in had the party start off being captured, and we were allowed the opportunity to try to hide one item. I tried (and failed, spectacularly) to hide a spell component. Now, we're in the dungeon with no gear, and I'm contemplating tearing the shrine maiden's red robes just so I can cast summon swarm.

So, it's not the sort of thing that matters in normal play, but occasionally it has value.

[Kudaku]

That and now I'm imagining a church having a unicorn chained in their basement so they could slowly bleed it for reagents.

Is that better or worse than the Nine Hells organizing bi-weekly blood drives to feed the Infernal Healing craze? :smallwink:

[Slipperychicken]

It just seems like you could just as easily say that spells flagged as such require a wizard to have access to a component pouch and leave it at that. Then you'd only list meaningful components and we'd not have dumb things like spell component pouches full of legendary artifacts or, as said above, vermin poop and demon blood being just as common.


Yeah, but then people would be left wondering what exactly those spell components are, if wizards need access to a pouch for them. Also, the spell components make the act of spellcasting a bit easier to visualize.

As for devil blood, that's not that hard to get: just have some wizard planar bind a devil and make it give you blood. Or someone just abducted a Lemure (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/devil/lemure) (one of the weakest devils in the game), and keeps it penned up in a basement somewhere so he can milk it for blood every so often (each casting only takes a drop of devil blood, after all), and then sells it to spell component shops. The artifact thing is absolutely RAW-tardedness, though.

[TuggyNE]

What I never understood was that if, by raw, minor components had no cost and you were just supposed to assume you always had them on hand...

Why even list those in the first place? If we're supposed to ignore spell components that aren't explicitly important or pricy... Why are they there? Why not just only call out specific components if it's part of that cost?

Because HAHA aren't they funny?!?

No, no they are not. :smallannoyed:

I do not like trivial material components (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=306203).


BoVD has a spell whose component is something like the severed... something of a good cleric and it's flagged as -- reagent too.

Hand, yes. And it has to be a humanoid cleric, too. My preference in that case is to leave the component there, but give no explicit means of acquiring it, so anyone who wants to cast the spell has to figure out how to get it through the black market, harvesting it themselves, or whatever, rather than just "lol open pouch".