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Fawsto
2007-02-06, 06:18 PM
I am posting thsi thread just for the fun of discovering some bugs and glitches in D&D rules and some of the best powerbuilds to be found here (till lvl 20 only, pls) .

It is just for the fun of the thing. (This topic will look like extremely idiotic at some points!)

Glitch #1: The Pole and Ladder glitch

Check players handbook and you will see that a 10 foot ladder costs 5cp each, right? Well a 10 foot Pole costs 2sp each! Why dont you buy a ladder and transform it into 2 poles and sell them both for 2sp (2sp each but when you sell the item price is halved o.O). Well, you still have the equivalent to 20cp, so you can buy 4 more ladders. Repeat this as much as you can and you'll be rich at some point. Scary isn't it?

Glitch #2: The Chain and Spikes glitch

Again, checking the equipment, you'll notice that a 10 foot chain costs 30gp, a spiked chain costs 25gp and spikes costs between 10 to 50gp! Well, Buy a spiked chain, remove the spikes, and sell them both! Again, ghost money!


Powerbuil #1: (Couldn't find no name for this.. o.O)

This is a Human Fighter/Paladin/Rogue/Kensai Build for 20 lvls

.Lets start with the Fighter, and 2 levels for him
The feats he will get are these ones: Monkey Grip (or Use exotic weapon), Weapon Focus: Longsword, Combat Expertise amd Improved Trip
.8 levels for the paladin, that makes it another 2 feats and a Dire Lion as his mount. The feats are Knock-Down (from Sword and Fist) and Devoted Inquisitor.
.2 levels for the rogue class, so he can get Evasion and Sneak attack +1d6 and an extra feat: this one will be Power attack.
.8 reamining levels to teh Kensai class, that means more 3 extra feats, used to complete the Great Cleave tree: Cleave and Great Cleave. There is a spare feat... Not usig it...

Well here is the thing. Knock Down says that whenever you deal 10 points or more damage (very easy if you consider the free magical weapon of the Kensai PC) you make a free trip attempt against that foe. If you are succesful the guy falls down and you receive an extra attack against him, cool isnt it? Well, Cleave says that whenever you drop an enemy (aka. making the guy fall) you receive an extra attack against a ajacent foe, where you can reapeat the process again and again, always making 2 attacks per enemy while keeping them in the ground. Against a single foe things get even better! Get your dire lion to flank the poor guy and make dust of him using the same combo + sneak attack + smite evil. With some luck when you hit the guy the first time he wont have any other oportunities to attack you back.

Well, this one isnt even compared to the combos made with spellcasting classes. But it is cool as a fighting class one.

TSGames
2007-02-06, 06:32 PM
Power Build #2
Wizard(throw in some archmage or something too) strait to 20.

Here's a twist, become a Necropolitan and learn the corrupt spells. You can now destroy the stats of any opponent you come up against, often without a save, and you suffer no penalties. Worried about Clerics? Not anymore! Learn the level 7 spell chain of sorrows and instantly reduce any foe's CHA by 2d10 with a save for half: be a cleric and use turn/metamagic cheese to maximize and empower it. You win D&D.

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 06:34 PM
Glitch #1: The Pole and Ladder glitch

Check players handbook and you will see that a 10 foot ladder costs 5cp each, right? Well a 10 foot Pole costs 2sp each! Why dont you buy a ladder and transform it into 2 poles and sell them both for 2sp (2sp each but when you sell the item price is halved o.O). Well, you still have the equivalent to 20cp, so you can buy 4 more ladders. Repeat this as much as you can and you'll be rich at some point. Scary isn't it?

Doesnt work - the poles will have holes in them making them less than sturdy.


Glitch #2: The Chain and Spikes glitch

Again, checking the equipment, you'll notice that a 10 foot chain costs 30gp, a spiked chain costs 25gp and spikes costs between 10 to 50gp! Well, Buy a spiked chain, remove the spikes, and sell them both! Again, ghost money!
Destroying both in the process of removing them... good idea.


Powerbuil #1: (Couldn't find no name for this.. o.O)

This is a Human Fighter/Paladin/Rogue/Kensai Build for 20 lvls


.Lets start with the Fighter, and 2 levels for him
The feats he will get are these ones: Monkey Grip (or Use exotic weapon), Weapon Focus: Longsword, Combat Expertise amd Improved Trip
.8 levels for the paladin, that makes it another 2 feats and a Dire Lion as his mount. The feats are Knock-Down (from Sword and Fist) and Devoted Inquisitor.
.2 levels for the rogue class, so he can get Evasion and Sneak attack +1d6 and an extra feat: this one will be Power attack.
.8 reamining levels to teh Kensai class, that means more 3 extra feats, used to complete the Great Cleave tree: Cleave and Great Cleave

(Finishing this later, sry :smalleek: )
I cant wait to see the finish for this... since its looking pretty un-power buildish atm.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 06:39 PM
Here's another: Take a whip build. Probably fighter, going in for trip-monkeying or disarming.

Give it Exotic Weapon Proficiency (scorpion-tail whip). 1d43 damage, ta-daa.

You did say glitches.

DaMullet
2007-02-06, 06:52 PM
Here's another: Take a whip build. Probably fighter, going in for trip-monkeying or disarming.

Give it Exotic Weapon Proficiency (scorpion-tail whip). 1d43 damage, ta-daa.

You did say glitches.
1d43, huh? Where y'all gon' find a 43-sided die?

tarbrush
2007-02-06, 07:07 PM
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801

Pun Pun wins.

Fawsto
2007-02-06, 07:11 PM
Lets just say this, Rigeld2:

There is no rule that says that a Pole with some holes isn't good enougth as a 10 feet pole... Nosense there...

Turning Spiked chains into Chains and Spikes isnt hard at all! Just get a freaking pliers or something to cut them. Again, no rule says that it is not possible. You see, there is a class at Sword And Fist that can attach more Spikes to his chain. If they can be added, why not removed?
----------------------------------------------------

Wait, you said 1d43?!? What the hell? Explain it better!

----------------------------------------------------

Pun-Pun is devil himself... Veeeery scary...Veeeeeeeery!

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 07:14 PM
Well, Cleave says that whenever you drop an enemy (aka. making the guy fall) you receive an extra attack against a ajacent foe, where you can reapeat the process again and again, always making 2 attacks per enemy while keeping them in the ground.

"Dropping" refers to reducing to 0 or less HP.

Fawsto
2007-02-06, 07:27 PM
No it doesnt: I says, USUALLY dropping it bellow 0 hit points or killing it. These are ways to make the creature drop. That creates an opening that can be explored. :smalltongue:

Tengu
2007-02-06, 07:30 PM
It is also never written that you cannot shoot lightnings out of your arse. What a great opening that can be explored! Consider pulling a William Wallace on the next session.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-06, 07:31 PM
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it),...

The untypical versions would be to render it unconscious through nonlethal damage, or kill it through massive damage. "Dropping" is not "tripping." They're very different things.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-06, 07:31 PM
Your melee build is horridly sub-par. Monkey-Grip, in short, sucks. There are MANY other ways to do this much better.

Powerbuild #1: Sit Down and Shut Up
Half-Giant PsiWar5/Pyro4/Slayer10

In short, this build does what yours does... better.

Feat Progression:

1st: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus)
2nd: EWP: Spiked Chain (PsiWar Bonus)
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Improved Bull Rush
5th: Combat Reflexes (PsiWar Bonus)
6th: Karmic Strike
9th: Shock Trooper

Basically, those are the important ones. From there, get whatever you want.

Important powers to manifest: Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge

Manifester Level: 15th

He gets BAB*2 to every hit with his weapon by dumping his AC. Fine, he's got craptons of AoO, a successfull hit on him provokes an AoO. So does walking within 20' of him. Oh, and he's doing about 4d6+(Str mod * 1.5) + 32 + 2d6 fire per hit. Ouch.

Right, so this guy is Battlefield Control. No one can get near him without falling over and getting a free hit on him. Reason: Improved Trip and Expansion. Manifests it to increase two sizes. Half-Giant has Powerful Build, which lets him act as though he were one size larger if it benifits him, including trip checks and weapon size. So we're looking at an effective Gargantuan creature here for purposes of bonuses for trips and weapon damage. In other words, yes he IS tripping you, then getting a free attack on you after you are prone. Then getting another AoO on you for standing in his threatened area.Then another one for moving out of a threatened square if you move more than a 5' adjustment, which he uses to knock you prone and get a free hit again. Unless your name happens to be Torrasque, this is likely going to be the final nail in your coffin considering he's going to follow that up with a full attack of another 4 attacks, and you're denied dex bonus to AC because you're prone.

This guy is damage output. 4 attacks per round on full attack. He can charge and make a full attack with Psionic Lion's Charge. He can drop his AC down by 16 to get +32 damage by using Power Attack in conjunction with Shock Trooper to trade off AC penalty for attack penalty. Oh, and all weapon hits do an additional +2d6 fire damage due to Pyro. Plus if you're out of reach, he can shoot 4d6 bolts of fire at you every round as a psi-like ability at no cost. Yea, that won't hurt as much as him closing with you, but you can't just hang back with immunity. Plus all the AoO he's going to be doing if anyone is stupied enough to do anything that provokes within 20' of him (including trying to close with his cleric or wizard, or getting back up once he trips you).

Oh, and don't bother trying to lock him down by exploiting his will save either. He's immune to mind-affecting abilities. His fort save is, by necessity, also not something you want to tangle with. His Reflex save is good enough from the Pyro levels that he's going to be harder than you might think to affect that way. He can also get the power Evade Burst to temporarily give him Evasion.

And this isn't even considered a Powerbuild by the CharOp boards. Head on over to the WotC boards and check out the D20 Character Optimization boards.

The guy you're wanting to talk to is Pun-Pun.

The_Snark
2007-02-06, 07:33 PM
Wait, you said 1d43?!? What the hell? Explain it better!

With great power comes great responsibility. The Typewriter is a mighty tool, my friend, but alas misused all too often, even by those in power.

In other words, typo by Wizards of the Coast. Persistent one, though, since the Small version of the weapon does 1d33.

Jade_Tarem
2007-02-06, 07:35 PM
Well, since this is a glitch thread, I might as well point out what OOTS did in that one comic: Spot and Listen, which generally deteriorate with age, improve as you advance age categories in DnD, because those two skills are tied with wisdom, for which you keep getting +1's as you advance age categories in DnD. So, barring truly unfortuanate circumstances, it is physically impossible to have worse sight and hearing than you did at a younger, healthier age.

You can evasion your way out of a 20' blast radius and back into the spot you vacated, but even with improved evasion you can't get out of the way of a charge.

When you put "distance" (epic ranged weapon special ability) on a longbow and fire at a star, it will get there, crossing many light years, in the same 6 seconds it takes to hit a target 5 feet away. This is shown in lesser variations in non-epic levels.

Some DM's won't allow it, but you can evasion your way out of a fireball in a 5x5 room.

Weapon substance layout for rare substances is off. For example, you can't have an adamantine spear because the majority is made out of wood. However, the business end is metal, so shouldn't that be the important part?

Electrical effects do not correlate to conductivity in any way, shape, or form.

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 07:49 PM
There is no rule that says that a Pole with some holes isn't good enougth as a 10 feet pole... Nosense there...
... Do you really think a 10ft pole with holes in it is as sturdy as a solid 10ft pole?


Turning Spiked chains into Chains and Spikes isnt hard at all! Just get a freaking pliers or something to cut them. Again, no rule says that it is not possible. You see, there is a class at Sword And Fist that can attach more Spikes to his chain. If they can be added, why not removed?Sword and Fist is 3.0 (not that I recall that class offhand). Theres no rule that says I cant shoot Lightning Bolts out my arse. Maybe I should start doing that.

edit: to add to the thread - Buy a cow. Cast Flesh to Salt on the cow. Sell the salt. Profit. Repeat until rich or until you bomb the salt market.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-06, 07:57 PM
Easy way to bomb the market:

Create Wall of Iron. Break it up into managable chunks. Sell for enormous profit. Repeat until Iron market is flooded.

Rama_Lei
2007-02-06, 08:34 PM
Druid. Cleric. 'Nuff said.

cupkeyk
2007-02-06, 09:16 PM
Other means of dropping is via a physical stat reduction induced paralysis or a mental stat reduction induced coma, tripping an opponent render him prone NOT dropping him. DnD jargon. Knockdown is also 3.0(from Deities and Demigods and Sword and Fist) and has not been reprinted because everyone and his kid brother should get it, who doesn't do 15 damage anyway...

timmy_pyromancer
2007-02-06, 09:25 PM
"
you're denied dex bonus to AC because you're prone.
While it would be cool it isn't but you do get +4 to hit in melee vs prone. it it helps some.

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 10:28 PM
Other means of dropping is via a physical stat reduction induced paralysis or a mental stat reduction induced coma, tripping an opponent render him prone NOT dropping him. DnD jargon. Knockdown is also 3.0(from Deities and Demigods and Sword and Fist) and has not been reprinted because everyone and his kid brother should get it, who doesn't do 15 damage anyway...
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown
Its 3.5.

clarkvalentine
2007-02-06, 10:33 PM
There is no rule that says that a Pole with some holes isn't good enougth as a 10 feet pole...


Using the same logic that says a small longsword is not a short sword, I'd argue that it's not a pole, it's half a ladder.

cupkeyk
2007-02-06, 10:40 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown
Its 3.5.
Nope, it was included there for reasons beyond me, but neither Deities and Demigods nor Sword and Fist is 3.5.

Rigeld2
2007-02-06, 10:45 PM
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/DivineAbilitiesandFeats.rtf
Page 22.

Thats the official WotC 3.5 SRD. So its 3.5. So..................

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-06, 10:49 PM
Nope, it was included there for reasons beyond me, but neither Deities and Demigods nor Sword and Fist is 3.5.
1. That doesn't matter. Most material is easily upgraded and can be used just fine. See the sidebar in the first few pages of the DMG. There's a lot of stuff that needs changing, but most of it is good to go.

2. Re: Deities and Demigods. It has been officially revised and updated by WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). In fact, if you get a sufficiently recent printing, the update booklet is included in the back of the book as an appendix for your convenience.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-06, 10:59 PM
Your melee build is horridly sub-par. Monkey-Grip, in short, sucks. There are MANY other ways to do this much better.

Powerbuild #1: Sit Down and Shut Up
Half-Giant PsiWar5/Pyro4/Slayer10

In short, this build does what yours does... better.

Feat Progression:

1st: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus)
2nd: EWP: Spiked Chain (PsiWar Bonus)
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Improved Bull Rush
5th: Combat Reflexes (PsiWar Bonus)
6th: Karmic Strike
9th: Shock Trooper

Basically, those are the important ones. From there, get whatever you want.

Important powers to manifest: Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge

Manifester Level: 15th

He gets BAB*2 to every hit with his weapon by dumping his AC. Fine, he's got craptons of AoO, a successfull hit on him provokes an AoO. So does walking within 20' of him. Oh, and he's doing about 4d6+(Str mod * 1.5) + 32 + 2d6 fire per hit. Ouch.

Right, so this guy is Battlefield Control. No one can get near him without falling over and getting a free hit on him. Reason: Improved Trip and Expansion. Manifests it to increase two sizes. Half-Giant has Powerful Build, which lets him act as though he were one size larger if it benifits him, including trip checks and weapon size. So we're looking at an effective Gargantuan creature here for purposes of bonuses for trips and weapon damage. In other words, yes he IS tripping you, then getting a free attack on you after you are prone. Then getting another AoO on you for standing in his threatened area.Then another one for moving out of a threatened square if you move more than a 5' adjustment, which he uses to knock you prone and get a free hit again. Unless your name happens to be Torrasque, this is likely going to be the final nail in your coffin considering he's going to follow that up with a full attack of another 4 attacks, and you're denied dex bonus to AC because you're prone.

This guy is damage output. 4 attacks per round on full attack. He can charge and make a full attack with Psionic Lion's Charge. He can drop his AC down by 16 to get +32 damage by using Power Attack in conjunction with Shock Trooper to trade off AC penalty for attack penalty. Oh, and all weapon hits do an additional +2d6 fire damage due to Pyro. Plus if you're out of reach, he can shoot 4d6 bolts of fire at you every round as a psi-like ability at no cost. Yea, that won't hurt as much as him closing with you, but you can't just hang back with immunity. Plus all the AoO he's going to be doing if anyone is stupied enough to do anything that provokes within 20' of him (including trying to close with his cleric or wizard, or getting back up once he trips you).

Oh, and don't bother trying to lock him down by exploiting his will save either. He's immune to mind-affecting abilities. His fort save is, by necessity, also not something you want to tangle with. His Reflex save is good enough from the Pyro levels that he's going to be harder than you might think to affect that way. He can also get the power Evade Burst to temporarily give him Evasion.

And this isn't even considered a Powerbuild by the CharOp boards. Head on over to the WotC boards and check out the D20 Character Optimization boards.

The guy you're wanting to talk to is Pun-Pun.

Don't forget Enlarge Person followed immediately by Permanency. Then, when you hit epic, take the Oversized Weapon feat, and suddenly you're wielding a gargantuan weapon. With gargantuan reach.:smallamused:

timmy_pyromancer
2007-02-06, 11:07 PM
Don't forget Enlarge Person followed immediately by Permanency. Then, when you hit epic, take the Oversized Weapon feat, and suddenly you're wielding a gargantuan weapon. With gargantuan reach.:smallamused:

well here i am again being a party pooper but enlarge person only works on humanoids and ha half giant isn't a humanoid.

Tho i might add that it does work on were creatures such as an enarged were cheatah that can charge you from at least 500ft and trip on a normal hit with its +4 size and +4 from legs and any other things you can add. now if only it had one more animal hit die then it would be another size category bigger.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-06, 11:13 PM
I'm pretty sure the half-giant is a humanoid, since being a non-humanoid would be yet another advantage to an already powerful race.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-06, 11:26 PM
HALF-GIANT
Half-Giant, 1st-Level Warrior
Medium Giant (Psionic)
It be Giant.

I never liked racial "features" that say "X-Blood" anyway. It's never clear whether or not you actually have the specified creature (sub)type or are simply treated as having that (sub)type in addition to some unspecified default.

barawn
2007-02-06, 11:43 PM
Easy way to bomb the market:

Create Wall of Iron. Break it up into managable chunks. Sell for enormous profit. Repeat until Iron market is flooded.

It's not that enormous profit, actually. It's only about ~400 gp for each casting at earliest level, so it's only a profit of about ~150 gp (assuming half sale). Doesn't scale wonderfully, either.

Is there any way to magically cut it up, as well? Or is there labor cost as well?

Behold_the_Void
2007-02-07, 12:45 AM
Don't forget the Hulking Hurler! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 12:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the half-giant is a humanoid, since being a non-humanoid would be yet another advantage to an already powerful race.

Level adjustment, race. Except for a few cheesy things like the Feral template, nothing with +1 LA is particularily powerful.

Everyman
2007-02-07, 12:54 AM
My favorite "glitch" that I've discovered:

1) Take a warforged PC.
2) Make'em a monk
3) Take the tatooed monk PrC
4) Grab the Chameleon tatoo
5) Use tatoo to turn into a Large wagon

Essentially, the chameleon gives your warforged "alter self" X times per day. Alter self can only turn you into a creature of the same type as you. An animated object is a construct, so you can turn into an animated wagon. In essence, you're pulling a true "transformers" move with this.

Terraneaux
2007-02-07, 02:16 AM
Transformer warforged: very, very sweet.

Dhavaer
2007-02-07, 02:18 AM
That is made of good and godly win.

daggaz
2007-02-07, 02:27 AM
Yeah, in all of those market busting ideas, you are completely forgetting the time and cost of labor. You need an army of workers ripping ladders apart to see any real profit (read:McDonalds), and yeah, since they are not magical, we can go all physics on your ass without killing catgirls. -2 or even -4 circumstance penalties for anything involving a strength check. Its got HOLES in it dude. Therefor its worth even less than a normal 10-ft pole.

As for the spikes and chains deal... that is even MORE labor intensive! How are you gonna quickly and easily remove the spikes? Any blacksmith worth his salt would have cast the links with spikes already attached, its not like they spot weld them on. So once again, a huge chance you mangle the chains (%d of wasted chains or chains of inferior length, as well as a -2 or even -4 circumstance penalty for str checks).

Whats even better about this one is, after you pay somebody to laboriously remove those spikes, you are assuming the 50 gp price of spikes is for the raw materials alone! DUDE! Most of that cost is incurred as labor, the blacksmith has to spend a lot of time attaching those spikes to your armor! The spikes themselves are almost worthless, look at the price of iron. Labor costs are NOT profit.

I could go on, but whats the point. Somebody summed it up best when they said, 'Its far more cost efficient to take a level in fighter, cough up for some 1st level gear, and hit the nearest dungeon for your returns.'

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 02:29 AM
Okay.

Take 9k.
Buy a Candle of Invocation.
Use it to Gate in an Efreeti.
Agree to give it 25k if it uses its wishes to make you some wealth.
Use the three wishes it can grant you to wish for 25k each time.
You've made 41k.
Now, take 9k of that...

daggaz
2007-02-07, 02:43 AM
yeah, but c'mon bears, everyone knows the gate spell is THE most broken thing ever =) You use that one on just about every cheese thread there is.

Besides, as the DM, I would have to wonder why a being that can just wish itself 75k would be tempted to part with a third of it for you, or why it would even care about wealth.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 02:57 AM
Efreeti can't grant themselves wishes. They can only grant wishes to other people.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-07, 02:59 AM
The Omniscificer: A Rational Solution to the Pun-Pun problem. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=546612)

That Hulking Hurler build can throw the universe at you for infinity billion d6 damage.
Ok, I'm exaggerating. But not by much.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 03:46 AM
Turning into a Shambling Mound and zapping yourself with electricity repeatedly to gain an arbitrarily high Constitution score.

Saph
2007-02-07, 05:48 AM
Turning into a Shambling Mound and zapping yourself with electricity repeatedly to gain an arbitrarily high Constitution score.

Actually my favourite use of that was with the Druid spell Shambler.

Make yourself half a dozen or so shambling mounts, then get an electrical weapon or spell effect of some kind and go around hitting them until your arm falls off.

After a few hours of abusing your shamblers, you'll have half-a-dozen obedient servants, each with a hundred thousand HP or so and immune to nearly everything. Either use them on guard duty (seven month duration!) or just send them in as meat shields in your next battle. They're not absolutely invulnerable, but they're pretty close, and by the time your enemy figures out that no amount of hit point damage can possibly kill them, you should have won.

Your DM will probably kill you, but there's something amusing about commanding a squad of infinite-HP monsters.

- Saph

Marius
2007-02-07, 08:32 AM
Miner's Picks can't penetrate rocks hardness...

Rigeld2
2007-02-07, 08:39 AM
Miner's Picks can't penetrate rocks hardness...
I cant find the stats for a Miner's Pick... I can find a Military Pick, which isnt the same thing. And a hardness of 8 is hardly impossible a Heavy Pick to get through - it just requires someone strong to do it.

Wow... werent most miners actually... strong?

Wolf53226
2007-02-07, 08:58 AM
Well, not that I would allow the 10 ft poll thing, but I must say that a "Half-ladder" would be stronger than a 10ft poll. Ladders struts would be much thicker and the small holes that bore into them would do little to the structural strength of the strut, remember that a ladder is meant to hold a persons weight. A 10ft poll is not meant for anything nearly as strenuous as holding someone's weight for hours on end. But again, the strut would be thicker and heavier and thus not as easy to wield and use as a 10ft poll for the uses that a 10ft poll has.

daggaz
2007-02-07, 09:10 AM
Well first, I suppose it would be a DM's call on the ladder strut versus pole thickness (I cant find them in the SRD, are the diameters given?), but there are two holes in your argument. And remember, these are non-magical items, so the laws of physics do apply. Nice kitty..

1) not being strong enough to hold things 'for hours on end.' Wooden materials (really almost all materials) generally do not break in this fashion. Either it is strong enough to carry a load, or it is not. If it is not, it either breaks immediately, or the strain causes it to deform and eventually snap, but deformation takes place over a much shorter time frame, usually seconds but it could be several minutes... it gets complex but it depends on the micro structure of the material (composite materials often show this behavior as one after another layer breaks...the breakdown always happens at an exponentially increasing rate tho. At some point the load is too much and the entire unit fails.) At any rate, a typical wooden pole from a tree will either bare a load, or it will fail.

2) If the ladder must bare the weight of a human, the side poles need to be only half the diameter of a single pole to carry the same load. The big factor is actually the rungs, which must be thick enough to carry almost the entire load each time they are stepped on (so the argument about 'thin rungs' is kinda without merit).

3) where in the DMG does it say that a 10-ft pole can't bare the weight of a person anyhow? We've used them to get out of pit traps (or to place a halfling across a gap) many times...

ReluctantDragon
2007-02-07, 09:22 AM
Wow, catgirls all over the place in here. That's what that smell is.

Glitch?

The fact that D&D leaves it up to the players and DM to "fix" everything that is "wrong" with it. Darn those publishers and their desire to make money! Why oh why must these people complain about things like "balance" and "physics in phantasy"?

*cough*



Although I do enjoy that PsyWar build. Very nice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-07, 09:29 AM
Don't forget Enlarge Person followed immediately by Permanency. Then, when you hit epic, take the Oversized Weapon feat, and suddenly you're wielding a gargantuan weapon. With gargantuan reach.:smallamused:


Important powers to manifest: Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm)

Umm... re-read. He can Manifest Expansion to increase *TWO* sizes, which, if I recall correctly, doesn't exactly stack with Enlarge person.

In other words, he *IS* suddenly wielding a gargantuan weapon. Re-read my build for details.

Wolf53226
2007-02-07, 09:40 AM
1) not being strong enough to hold things 'for hours on end.' ......
Yeah, the for Hours on end was not really a supporting argument other than a wooden ladder WILL eventually fail, but that is really more due to the wood breaking down.


2) If the ladder must bare the weight of a human, the side poles need to be half the diameter of a single pole to carry the same load. The big factor is actually the rungs, which must be thick enough to carry almost the entire load each time they are stepped on (so the argument about 'thin rungs' is kinda without merit).
This is not true, this assumes that your weight is evenly distributed on both side poles at all times, I'd say it has to be more in the realm of 3/4 as thick, since generally how people climb one and lean off to the side on one puts more weight on one side or the other. Thus if you the sides can only hold half the weight, then when one leans off to the side, to say paint beside him, it would fail soon enough.


3) where in the DMG does it say that a 10-ft pole can't bare the weight of a person anyhow? We've used them to get out of pit traps (or to place a halfling across a gap) many times...
Well, as a DM, I would say allowing these things is more of a per attempt basis. Would you allow the 10ft pole to help the 210 lb paladin in his full plate, I would think not, but the 120 lb thief in leather armor, sure. As there are no rules, it is pretty much DM fiat, but one must inquire as to the sanity of the DM that just allows the pole to hold any weight. As all pictures of the 10ft pole show it as rather thin, I would say that it isn't meant to hold great amounts of weight.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 09:42 AM
Pole is spelled pole. A poll is a survey.

jjpickar
2007-02-07, 10:26 AM
Are there any glitches involving Shadow-Casters from the ToM? Because initially they look like a better NPC class than a full fledged player class.

Matthew
2007-02-07, 11:38 AM
I cant find the stats for a Miner's Pick... I can find a Military Pick, which isnt the same thing. And a hardness of 8 is hardly impossible a Heavy Pick to get through - it just requires someone strong to do it.

Wow... werent most miners actually... strong?

Yeah, but there's strong and STRONG. An Elite Array Human Miner could just about manage it (1 in every 6 blows will cause 1 Damage), but an average Human, no; Expert and Commoner Miners would have to use a Feat to even gain Proficiency in Picks. Of course, by the time he reaches Level 2, he has some BAB to use in conjunction with Power Attack and he's probaby using some sort of Great Pick anyway (Maybe 2D4 or 1D10 Damage). I assume Rocks are immune to Critical hits, but maybe not.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-07, 12:12 PM
Are there any glitches involving Shadow-Casters from the ToM? Because initially they look like a better NPC class than a full fledged player class.

Yes, there was. I can't recall the exact build off-hand, but basically you can set it up so you cast shadow spells at greater than 100% 'real', making the spells effectively stronger if they *DO* make their will save. This makes things like Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration really really obnoxious.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-07, 12:24 PM
Yes, there was. I can't recall the exact build off-hand, but basically you can set it up so you cast shadow spells at greater than 100% 'real', making the spells effectively stronger if they *DO* make their will save. This makes things like Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration really really obnoxious.
That didn't use shadowcasters, though. It was a prestige class for Illusionists using spells of the Shadow subschool.

I'm not familiar with the PrC in question myself, so I don't know whether or not you can apply it to a Shadowcaster.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-07, 12:59 PM
You cannot.

There is, however, some twinkery involving the Shadowcaster: Wiz 3/Shd 3/Noctumancer 10/MystTh 4 gives double-nines casting.

Fawsto
2007-02-07, 10:42 PM
Dire Pick is good there... At least for me is the biggest "Pick" weapon I've ever seen. 1d8 dmg x4 crit, one handed with the proper feat. Personaly, my weapon of choice (I like devastating criticals xD)

JaronK
2007-02-07, 10:51 PM
Yes, there was. I can't recall the exact build off-hand, but basically you can set it up so you cast shadow spells at greater than 100% 'real', making the spells effectively stronger if they *DO* make their will save. This makes things like Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration really really obnoxious.

That's not Shadowcasters, that's Shadowcraft Mages. And yes, you can put enough shadow magic into a spell to do more damage than a spell would normally do. It's not a glitch, and it's not even unrealistic (though the part where passing your will save makes you take more damage is a little odd).

JaronK

Arceliar
2007-02-07, 11:36 PM
You know...there's the spell Wood Shape. You could use that to make a bisected ladder into 10ft poles. Better yet, according to the guidelines presented for magic item cost estimation, a wondrous item that does it at will should cost approximately 10,800 GP. I mean...if you're THAT determined to get money out of ladders...

*Edit: A quick calculation shows that if you had sufficient supplies to cast Wood Shape one one half-ladder every round 24 hours a day, you could covert 7200 Ladders into 2 poles each in one day. That's a net profit of 2520 GP per day. You know...if you're THAT determined to do it....

daggaz
2007-02-08, 07:40 AM
In that case, I would just get a wonderous item with unlimited create food and water at will. And open a restaurant/bar in a BIG city.

Blandannigans -where mundane is our motto!

Rigeld2
2007-02-08, 07:46 AM
The food that this spell creates is simple fare of your choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland.
Emphasis mine.
Good luck with your restaurant business.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 07:50 AM
Prestidigitation.
It tastes like AMBROSIA.

Saph
2007-02-08, 08:06 AM
Prestidigitation.
It tastes like AMBROSIA.

One-hour duration.

Better hire a good-sized staff of wizards and sorcerers.

- Saph

edit: come to think of it, that would make for a really funny character background. 'Well, I learnt wizardry at Sharn College of Magic, and I paid my way through with a job at the Magic Diner opposite the palace . . .'

Rigeld2
2007-02-08, 08:07 AM
For an hour. /shrug.

Morty
2007-02-08, 08:10 AM
After reading about Pun-Pun... can someone tell me what Divine Minion is? I think it's a template, but I'm not sure.

Rigeld2
2007-02-08, 08:14 AM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 08:17 AM
An item of at-will Prestidigitation is 900 gp. Just keep usin' it.

hewhosaysfish
2007-02-08, 08:17 AM
After reading about Pun-Pun... can someone tell me what Divine Minion is? I think it's a template, but I'm not sure.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a

daggaz
2007-02-08, 08:18 AM
Heh thanks bears, I forgot about that one. So I guess I can change the name of my business from 'Blandannigas' (emphasis mine), to dun dun duh..

'In Your Face!' - the restaurant of divine eating, until you throw up, and you realize it all tastes like s---.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-08, 08:19 AM
I think most miner's have power attack... Except they're 1st level commoners...


Oh well, Dwarf Miners probably have warrior levels due to militia training.

NullAshton
2007-02-08, 08:20 AM
The listen skill. Seems ordinary enough, but...

The DC to hear people talking is 0, even at point-blank range. To actually understand what they are saying, however, you have to beat the roll by +10, so it's a 10 DC to understand what people are saying. Now lets take average commoners, with a wisdom score of 10. Half of the time, they can't understand what's being said.

They could possibly just take 10... but then what about the people with a wisdom of 9 or lower? They can't take 10. Whispering would be nearly impossible, since it's a DC of 25 no matter how close the other person may be.

Thus, commoners and average people without any ranks in the listen skill cannot understand what is being said half of the time.

daggaz
2007-02-08, 08:50 AM
Yeah but isn't that for when you are listening in on a conversation, as opposed to being directly talked to? In which case, it makes more sense, especially if you aren't right next to them, or their head is turned, or they aren't talking that loudly, or there are distracting noises in the area, etc..

Rigeld2
2007-02-08, 08:51 AM
Thus, commoners and average people without any ranks in the listen skill cannot understand what is being said half of the time.
Thats a surprise?

Charity
2007-02-08, 09:14 AM
Thus, commoners and average people without any ranks in the listen skill cannot understand what is being said half of the time.
At last some realism in D&D.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-08, 02:27 PM
The food that this spell creates is simple fare of your choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland.
Emphasis mine.
Good luck with your restaurant business.
I dunno. Fast food joints do pretty well for themselves, and they don't even have the "highly nourishing" part down.

Matthew
2007-02-08, 03:23 PM
The listen skill. Seems ordinary enough, but...

The DC to hear people talking is 0, even at point-blank range. To actually understand what they are saying, however, you have to beat the roll by +10, so it's a 10 DC to understand what people are saying. Now lets take average commoners, with a wisdom score of 10. Half of the time, they can't understand what's being said.

They could possibly just take 10... but then what about the people with a wisdom of 9 or lower? They can't take 10. Whispering would be nearly impossible, since it's a DC of 25 no matter how close the other person may be.

Thus, commoners and average people without any ranks in the listen skill cannot understand what is being said half of the time.

That's not how Listen works, as far as I know. You don't use it for normal conversation any more than you use Spot to be able to see.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-08, 05:31 PM
The listen skill. Seems ordinary enough, but...

The DC to hear people talking is 0, even at point-blank range. To actually understand what they are saying, however, you have to beat the roll by +10, so it's a 10 DC to understand what people are saying. Now lets take average commoners, with a wisdom score of 10. Half of the time, they can't understand what's being said.

They could possibly just take 10... but then what about the people with a wisdom of 9 or lower? They can't take 10. Whispering would be nearly impossible, since it's a DC of 25 no matter how close the other person may be.

Thus, commoners and average people without any ranks in the listen skill cannot understand what is being said half of the time.

How about the fact that the listen DC to hear a battle is -10? Put that battle on the opposite side of a stone wall, stand twenty feet away, and distract somebody (with, say, regular talking that he must take 10 to hear), and the DC goes up to 12. Ayup, that's right, the average commoner cannot hear a battle taking place twenty feet away if there's a stone wall and some sort of distraction.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-08, 05:52 PM
Of course, I don't believe they say how big a battle.

If the battle is only between two or three people, I can see a good foot of solid stone and 20 feet of dead air obscuring that.

Collin152
2007-02-08, 05:54 PM
"
While it would be cool it isn't but you do get +4 to hit in melee vs prone. it it helps some.
Incorect. Prone gives +4 versus ranged only; Melle attacks you recieve a penalty against. Yes. :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-02-08, 05:54 PM
...and Circumstance Modifiers put an end to all such silliness.

Douglas
2007-02-08, 05:56 PM
For more craziness with Listen, consider your typical lightning bolt and the thunder it causes. Assign an appropriate base Listen DC to make the DC for hearing it 5 miles away 0. So, an average commoner with no ranks and 10 wisdom can hear the thunder from 5 miles away even on a 1. Add another 200 feet, a measly .75% of the distance, and he needs a natural 20. Make it 5.1 miles away and you need a fairly high level character with max ranks and substantial other bonuses to hear it. At 5 and a half miles, you'd have to be pretty far into epic to be able to hear the thunder.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-08, 06:07 PM
Incorect. Prone gives +4 versus ranged only; Melle attacks you recieve a penalty against. Yes. :smallwink:
You are aware that the table those numbers come from are modifiers to the Prone character's AC?

Of course, timmy_pyromancer was incorrect. You recieve no bonus to your attack roll against a prone character. But the prone character does recieve that -4 penalty to AC.

Arceliar
2007-02-08, 06:09 PM
For more craziness with Listen, consider your typical lightning bolt and the thunder it causes. Assign an appropriate base Listen DC to make the DC for hearing it 5 miles away 0. So, an average commoner with no ranks and 10 wisdom can hear the thunder from 5 miles away even on a 1. Add another 200 feet, a measly .75% of the distance, and he needs a natural 20. Make it 5.1 miles away and you need a fairly high level character with max ranks and substantial other bonuses to hear it. At 5 and a half miles, you'd have to be pretty far into epic to be able to hear the thunder.

Well yeah... that's what happens when you assign a linear progression to a phenomenon that is inversely proportional to the square of the distance away it is triggered.

Don't get me started on spot checks. Suffice to say nobody goes blind from staring at the sun in D&D--cause there's NO WAY they could see it, especially if there's clouds providing even partial cover...

NullAshton
2007-02-08, 06:37 PM
Well yeah... that's what happens when you assign a linear progression to a phenomenon that is inversely proportional to the square of the distance away it is triggered.

Don't get me started on spot checks. Suffice to say nobody goes blind from staring at the sun in D&D--cause there's NO WAY they could see it, especially if there's clouds providing even partial cover...

There's no way they could see it even on a perfectly clear day. Distrance penalties get way too high.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-08, 07:36 PM
I can't believe that no one has mentioned one of the glitches that even OoTS had poked fun of (heck, I'm surprised I didn't either)...

Fire does 1d4/round. So yea, you can run into a burning building, with absolutely no protection whatsoever, and pretty much camp out as long as you want. Come on, kobolds do more than 1d4/round...

Behold_the_Void
2007-02-08, 07:45 PM
It's 1d6, as I recall.

Matthew
2007-02-08, 07:46 PM
Does Fire threaten? Then it would be 9D6. I bet some Fire even has Reach...

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 07:59 PM
There's no way they could see it even on a perfectly clear day. Distrance penalties get way too high.Then again, the sun is really big, so you're getting some serious bonuses which would counterbalance the penalties.

Of course, the distance mods might stack up a lot faster than the size mods, I'm not sure. The sun is sooo much bigger than the D&D rules can handle. It'd be, like, Collossal+x10^really big number.

Math/phsyics savants, please help us out. Can we see the sun in D&D?

Mewtarthio
2007-02-08, 08:04 PM
Spot (Wis)

Check

The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding. Typically, your Spot check is opposed by the Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) check of the creature trying not to be seen. Sometimes a creature isn’t intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible) creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.
Spot is also used to detect someone in disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm), and to read lips when you can’t hear or understand what someone is saying.
Spot checks may be called for to determine the distance at which an encounter begins. A penalty applies on such checks, depending on the distance between the two individuals or groups, and an additional penalty may apply if the character making the Spot check is distracted (not concentrating on being observant).

Nothing in there about making Spot checks for perfectly mundane, non-camoflagued things. Unless the Sun attempts to Hide from you, that is.

Arbitrarity
2007-02-08, 08:07 PM
Math incoming...

Sun is 150 million KM away, or 500 billion feet. That's a +50000000000 on spot DC.

It's... got a circumfrence of about 5 (4.373 actually) million KM, which is a size category... 20 sizes larger than medium. So that's -80 to the DC.

So no. You can't see the sun, without incredibly, horrifically, Pun-Pun style spot checks, or masochism. When you die, you get a huge bonus on spot checks (for hindsight), and that's why you can see the light.

Oh come on, DC 50 billion?! No check?!

Fine, I'll add that it is very bright, which gives.... -80 to DC?

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-08, 08:08 PM
Nothing in there about making Spot checks for perfectly mundane, non-camoflagued things. Unless the Sun attempts to Hide from you, that is.You mean, like, behind some clouds? :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, obviously I would never make people roll to see the sun. But I think it'd be fun to figure out, if you had to, how hard would it be by the rules.

@Arbitrary: it's only 20 sizes larger than medium? That seems...like not enough. How are you calculating that?

Arbitrarity
2007-02-08, 08:11 PM
Remember, a size category is twice the size (double in height, etc), so 2^20 is 1 million, from the medium height of about 5 ft.

20 categories 0.o.

EDIT: The sun with a greatsword deals a mere 2048d6. add in +160 str, so 2048d6+120. Not actually to scary, relatively (it's the friggin' SUN!)

Jack_Simth
2007-02-08, 08:32 PM
For more craziness with Listen, consider your typical lightning bolt and the thunder it causes. Assign an appropriate base Listen DC to make the DC for hearing it 5 miles away 0. So, an average commoner with no ranks and 10 wisdom can hear the thunder from 5 miles away even on a 1. Add another 200 feet, a measly .75% of the distance, and he needs a natural 20. Make it 5.1 miles away and you need a fairly high level character with max ranks and substantial other bonuses to hear it. At 5 and a half miles, you'd have to be pretty far into epic to be able to hear the thunder.
... and meanwhile, just 200 feet further in, everyone knows where it struck to within five feet. Another 100 feet further in still, and that's even if they were asleep at the time.

Mind you, the listen/spot rules work okay in a dungeonesque environment, where lighting is poor at best, dripping water covers a bunch of sounds, everything echos oddly, and there's lots to confuse or cover important sounds and sights. They don't work so grand elsewhere (which is why you get things like encounter distance spot rules in the DMG - it's known that it's insane that nobody can see anybody at 400 feet).

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-09, 05:31 AM
Looking through Wizard's CO boards, I found the "free lunch" thread.

Fighter 2ish, takes the Dragon Devotee PrC(from Races of the Dragon) to level 3(which grants you +1 effective Sorceror casting level, so if you weren't one before, you get the spells of a 1st level Sorceror), then switches to Dragon Disciple. 10 levels later, you've lost 3 BAB(maybe 4, if Dragon Devotee is 3/4 BAB, but I think it was full BAB) and about half a dozen feats, but now have a half-dozen extra uses of True Strike per day, +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, your flat-footed AC is 4 higher(from Natural Armour), you get Blindsense 60', at least 2 natural weapon attacks(unless your old ones were of the same type), and a breath weapon(which you can use Dragon style, once per 1d4 rounds, with a feat also from RotD). And you can fly. I don't think your flight is the "double base land speed" of a Large or larger Half Dragon, but you can't have everything (although you can come pretty close with this build. :D).

V
2007-02-09, 06:22 AM
Easy way to bomb the market:

Create Wall of Iron. Break it up into managable chunks. Sell for enormous profit. Repeat until Iron market is flooded.

The real trick here, of course, is to conjure a wall of iron and then use fabricate to turn that into a pile of masterwork longswords...

-V

Zincorium
2007-02-09, 06:39 AM
Looking through Wizard's CO boards, I found the "free lunch" thread.

Fighter 2ish, takes the Dragon Devotee PrC(from Races of the Dragon) to level 3(which grants you +1 effective Sorceror casting level, so if you weren't one before, you get the spells of a 1st level Sorceror), then switches to Dragon Disciple. 10 levels later, you've lost 3 BAB(maybe 4, if Dragon Devotee is 3/4 BAB, but I think it was full BAB) and about half a dozen feats, but now have a half-dozen extra uses of True Strike per day, +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha, your flat-footed AC is 4 higher(from Natural Armour), you get Blindsense 60', at least 2 natural weapon attacks(unless your old ones were of the same type), and a breath weapon(which you can use Dragon style, once per 1d4 rounds, with a feat also from RotD). And you can fly. I don't think your flight is the "double base land speed" of a Large or larger Half Dragon, but you can't have everything (although you can come pretty close with this build. :D).

Duskblade 5 is easier, since knowledge: arcana is a class skill (I think, the description says 'all skills taken individually'), you have full BAB the entire way up to entering the Prc, your duskblade spells work much better for the melee combatant role (they're supposed to), and you get several other useful abilities. Correct me if I'm off base on the skills thing.

El Honcho
2007-02-09, 06:55 AM
You could use a adamantin saw to cut the iron wall, it ignores the DR.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-09, 07:18 AM
The sun with a greatsword deals a mere 2048d6. add in +160 str, so 2048d6+120. Not actually to scary, relatively (it's the friggin' SUN!)
Don't forget the +xd6 Fire/Heat damage.
Plus, the Hulking Hurler will probably throw it at you.

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-09, 09:32 AM
Duskblade 5 is easier, since knowledge: arcana is a class skill (I think, the description says 'all skills taken individually'), you have full BAB the entire way up to entering the Prc, your duskblade spells work much better for the melee combatant role (they're supposed to), and you get several other useful abilities. Correct me if I'm off base on the skills thing.

Well yeah, but it's a freaking Duskblade. :smallsmile:

Was just trying to make the Fighter at least a marginal bit better.

Also, Duskblade taking DD would lose out on higher level spells, and more importantly, being able to channel spells as part of a full-attack, allowing them to be able to fire off one spell hit per attack.

Golthur
2007-02-09, 11:46 AM
The real trick here, of course, is to conjure a wall of iron and then use fabricate to turn that into a pile of masterwork longswords...

-V

Yep. I did that. DM didn't even see it coming, either, and I had the buyer prearranged.

It was a beautiful, beautiful thing. :amused:

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-09, 12:41 PM
You could use a adamantin saw to cut the iron wall, it ignores the DR.
What DR?

Iron walls have hardness, not DR.

</terminology police>

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 02:27 PM
No it doesnt: I says, USUALLY dropping it bellow 0 hit points or killing it. These are ways to make the creature drop. That creates an opening that can be explored. :smalltongue:

Actually, check your rules. Being knocked below 0 hit points does not cause a character to fall down or attain the prone condition.


The sun with a greatsword deals a mere 2048d6. add in +160 str, so 2048d6+120. Not actually to scary, relatively (it's the friggin' SUN!)

Yeah, the hulking hurler can do way more than that. Of course, the hulking hurler could throw the moon at the sun...


The real trick here, of course, is to conjure a wall of iron and then use fabricate to turn that into a pile of masterwork longswords...

But the optimal trick is to max out ranks in Craft: Alchemy, get the Fabricate spell and turn raw materials into saleable alchemical goods in near-zero time. If the DM fails to allow you to sell your gallons of acid, store them in really large ceramic jars and shrink them to 1/200th normal size, without changing them to cloth-like consistency. Then have your friend throw a handful at your enemy while you say the command word to change them back to normal size, as a readied action contingent on the tiny jars reaching the target's square. Then ask how much damage 400 "vials" of acid do as a single attack.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-09, 04:08 PM
In DnD, even if the whole planet explodes; 5% of everyone with Evasion will survive, floating in space.

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 04:20 PM
In DnD, even if the whole planet explodes; 5% of everyone with Evasion will survive, floating in space.

For 6 seconds.

I added that mention of clouds to the post on the sun specifically BECAUSE hide checks require cover.

Quietus
2007-02-09, 04:22 PM
For 6 seconds.

Nope. I think it's 2d6 cold and 1d4 from the vacuum, for space - check the "Nailed to the Sky" Epic Spell.


::edit:: They do suffocate, but if they have that magical bottle of air, that's hardly a concern.

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 04:33 PM
Nope. I think it's 2d6 cold and 1d4 from the vacuum, for space - check the "Nailed to the Sky" Epic Spell.


::edit:: They do suffocate, but if they have that magical bottle of air, that's hardly a concern.

Touche. So, the occasional multiclass Wizard/rogue might live long enough to plane shift out of there...

My point was, living through the planet exploding doesn't help a lot when you're (probably) stranded in a vacuum.

barawn
2007-02-09, 05:25 PM
Yep. I did that. DM didn't even see it coming, either, and I had the buyer prearranged.

DM should've forced you to make an entire pile of Craft checks. By definition, masterwork swords have a high degree of craftsmanship. DC of 15 + DC of 20 for each of them. And you probably would've only been able to make two of them, considering Fabricate requires materials of equal cost, and a masterwork sword costs 300 gp, and a Wall of Iron, at caster level 20, is barely over 1000 gp.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the entire "wall of iron" thing is pretty minor. If the cost were 500 gp instead of 50, there'd be little to no profit in it, assuming half sale.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-09, 06:08 PM
I added that mention of clouds to the post on the sun specifically BECAUSE hide checks require cover.
But, even when you have cover, you still have to take an action to hide. Can the sun take any sort of action?

Well, you can't see anything with total cover...

enderrocksonall
2007-02-09, 06:23 PM
But, even when you have cover, you still have to take an action to hide. Can the sun take any sort of action?

Well, you can't see anything with total cover...


Well if the sun decided it wanted to hide how well do you think you'd be able to see if i put out the torch it is holding?:smalltongue:

Hyfigh
2007-02-09, 06:32 PM
Incantrix and Dweomokeeper can provide some very nasty broken-ness.

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 06:36 PM
My point was that given the conditions the sun (or an object of equal size and luminous intensity) experiences, if it wanted to hide you'd never find it, as D&D uses a linear progression for spot (and listen) DC's even though the actual difficulty of spotting or hearing someone is proportional to the square of the distance.

While we're on the subject, moving diagonal costs 1.5 spaces. Pythagoras must be rolling over in his grave.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-09, 07:22 PM
My point was that given the conditions the sun (or an object of equal size and luminous intensity) experiences, if it wanted to hide you'd never find it, as D&D uses a linear progression for spot (and listen) DC's even though the actual difficulty of spotting or hearing someone is proportional to the square of the distance.
Which actually makes things blink out even faster.

You know...

{table="width=40%;head"]Distance|Linear Difficulty|Quadratic Difficulty
1 unit|
1|
1

2 units|
2|
4

3 units|
3|
9

4 units|
4|
16

5 units|
5|
25[/table]

Assuming "1 unit" of distance equals 10 ft., that would cause our usual "+1 to Listen DC per 10 ft./-1 to Spot Check" to become:

{table="width=40%;head"]Distance|Listen DC increase|Spot Penalty
10 ft.|
+1|
-1

20 ft.|
+4|
-4

30 ft.|
+9|
-9

40 ft.|
+16|
-16

50 ft.|
+25|
-25[/table]

(Anyone else find it wierd that distance increases DC for Listen, but imposes a penalty to Spot? Nearly identical mechanically, but conceptually different... it's just... :smallconfused:)

So that doesn't help with "spotting the sun". In fact, it makes it even more difficult. Whatever bonus the DC/penalty the check has under standard rules just got squared.

In any case, the general property of pretty much every D&D rule has in common is "Does not scale at extremes". In those cases, should they be unavoidable, common sense-DM fiat rules.

Obligatory comment about killing catgirls...

Arceliar
2007-02-09, 08:30 PM
Yes, things break faster on the square ratio thing. This is because D&D was built around a linear range 20 units across, aka the d20 dice. Something that takes a roll of 11 (1:2 chance) to see should take a 16 (1:4) to see twice as far away if it's to be at all realistic. Yes, I meant to say 11 and 16, not 10 and 15.

NecroPaladin
2007-02-09, 08:32 PM
Aw man, alla these are CLASSICS. :smallsmile:

Rigeld2
2007-02-09, 11:14 PM
While we're on the subject, moving diagonal costs 1.5 spaces. Pythagoras must be rolling over in his grave.
Not really 1.5, its 1 then 2. Important difference.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-10, 12:13 AM
But then, if it's difficult terrain (i.e. requiring double movement), a diagonal is just counted as 3 squares (15 ft.).

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-10, 05:44 AM
Hmm. Does Great Cleave work with the standard Lupine Bite/Trip combo? :P The text specifically says "deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". As far as wolves and the like go, any hit with the bite is "enough damage to make it drop", even if it's 0 damage due to Damage Reduction. ;P

Zincorium
2007-02-10, 06:07 AM
Hmm. Does Great Cleave work with the standard Lupine Bite/Trip combo? :P The text specifically says "deal a creature enough damage to make it drop". As far as wolves and the like go, any hit with the bite is "enough damage to make it drop", even if it's 0 damage due to Damage Reduction. ;P

I'm inclined to say that 'make it drop', given all the possible meanings, was a particularly poor choice of words. "...deals enough damage to bring a creature to or below zero hit points..." would have been a much better way of describing what was apparently intended, but alas, proofreading seems to not be a class skill for game writers.

onasuma
2007-02-10, 08:10 AM
Characters never use the toilet!

Rigeld2
2007-02-10, 09:06 AM
Characters never use the toilet!
Maybe in your games...

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-10, 10:39 AM
I'm inclined to say that 'make it drop', given all the possible meanings, was a particularly poor choice of words. "...deals enough damage to bring a creature to or below zero hit points..." would have been a much better way of describing what was apparently intended...
Or say, "make it drop unconcious," which specifies thing and allows for using it with nonlethal damage, which I believe is a legal use.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 04:52 PM
Characters never use the toilet!

Not unless they think they're going to get Roleplay XP (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20070120.html) for it!

MandibleBones
2007-02-10, 05:16 PM
I'm amused that no-one has yet mentioned the Ur-Priest cheese here yet.

Wiz10/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge 8 for Double-9s. *shrugs* Not the best, certainly, but not crappy either.

Zincorium
2007-02-10, 07:04 PM
Or say, "make it drop unconcious," which specifies thing and allows for using it with nonlethal damage, which I believe is a legal use.

Yeah, it is, but it just never made sense to me personally. I mean, it's 'cleave', as in, 'seperate into two (or more) pieces'. I just can't imagine an attack which chops through one opponent and smashes into another with equal force as being 'nonlethal'.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-10, 08:13 PM
I'm amused that no-one has yet mentioned the Ur-Priest cheese here yet.

Wiz10/Ur-Priest2/Mystic Theurge 8 for Double-9s. *shrugs* Not the best, certainly, but not crappy either.

I was under the impression that Ur-Priest was a PrC with significant prerequsites... including already being a cleric...

Douglas
2007-02-10, 08:20 PM
It's the other way around. Ur-Priest has a special requirement that you not have any divine spellcasting ability. If you have levels in a divine casting class, you have to somehow lose that ability (usually by pissing off your deity) before you can start as an Ur-Priest.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 08:22 PM
Does ot Mystic Theurge require higher level spells? Like, third?
Or do Ur-Priests gain spells Uber fast?

Douglas
2007-02-10, 08:29 PM
No spellcasting prereq at all, they just go up the spell levels super fast. With enough wisdom, Ur-Priests get level X spells at class level X. Without a bonus spell slot from wisdom you have to wait one more level, except for first level spells. They don't get very many spells per day but it's possible with an Ur-Priest to get a single 9th level divine spell per day at character level 14 if you have 28 or higher wisdom.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 09:07 PM
Somehow I doubt your argument. ima go dig up my complete Divine from the landfill.

Raistlin1040
2007-02-10, 09:11 PM
Pun Pun the mighty kobold > all other builds

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-10, 09:31 PM
A 7th-level Vigilante (CAdv) gets 20 3rd-level spells per day, and no 4th-level.
This continues, as an 8th-level, it gets 31, 9th = 32, and 10th = 33.

Collin152
2007-02-10, 09:33 PM
You still have to cast those wretched spells, you know.

NullAshton
2007-02-10, 09:37 PM
Yeah, but... think of the CHAOS with 33 fireballs!

Collin152
2007-02-10, 09:41 PM
You STILL have to cast them. And I don't think Vigilantes GET fireball. Just those stupid sneaky spells.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-10, 09:42 PM
Yeah, it is, but it just never made sense to me personally. I mean, it's 'cleave', as in, 'seperate into two (or more) pieces'. I just can't imagine an attack which chops through one opponent and smashes into another with equal force as being 'nonlethal'.
Can you justify a blow that "Cleaves" a person in two simply dropping that victim to -1 rather than outright death? Cleave is just a colorful name. It doesn't necessarily reflect how the act would actually be pulled off. Using Cleave implies no type of follow through whatsoever. As such, there are plenty of other strange ways to apply Cleave.

Say Bob, Sara, Dan, and Patricia are fighting a Giant, Ogg the Cleaver, so named because he likes to use his Cleave feat. The group isn't particularly bright when it comes to tactics, so they all stand shoulder to shoulder and engage Ogg in head-on melee. Sara stands between Bob and Dan, and Dan stands between Sara and Patricia.

During the fight, Ogg knocks Dan to -3 hp. He gets an extra attack, and decides to use it on Bob. I have no idea how exactly Ogg performed this Cleave, but it certainly wasn't a matter of just hitting Dan and keeping the club going in one direction as a matter of follow through. For that to be the case, Ogg would have had to use his bonus attack on Sara or Patricia instead of Bob.

The whole thing's rather wierd, but that's how it works.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-02-11, 12:01 AM
Pun Pun the mighty kobold > all other builds

I believe we've already gone over that.

Besides, Pun-Pun's primary ability is the abuse of a monster ability which is inherently broken. Simply state that the monster which has the ability which is abused does not exist in your cosmos anywhere, and his abusiveness simply vanishes.

Zincorium
2007-02-11, 12:24 AM
Can you justify a blow that "Cleaves" a person in two simply dropping that victim to -1 rather than outright death? Cleave is just a colorful name. It doesn't necessarily reflect how the act would actually be pulled off. Using Cleave implies no type of follow through whatsoever. As such, there are plenty of other strange ways to apply Cleave.

'Doesn't make sense' and 'seems impossible' are two entirely different declarations, and I only made the first one. It doesn't make sense mostly for the reasons you gave, in that it doesn't require you to physically pass through one target and continue on to the next. The fluff and name are somewhat inconsistent with the actual ability of the feat.

To clarify, I have no issue whatsoever with the mechanics and usability of the feat, I just think that it would make more sense to me personally if it was described in some other way.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-11, 12:28 AM
You STILL have to cast them. And I don't think Vigilantes GET fireball. Just those stupid sneaky spells.
They get Glibness. Think of the chaos with 33 Glibnesses.
"Run for your lives! It's the Tarrasque!"
"Y'know, lava has been proven to enhance your ability scores if you drink it."
"I just cast Water Breathing on you."

Mewtarthio
2007-02-11, 12:46 AM
They get Glibness. Think of the chaos with 33 Glibnesses.
"Y'know, lava has been proven to enhance your ability scores if you drink it."


A) Glibness does not stack with itself.

B) A successful Bluff check does not allow you to mind-control someone. It means that they believe you're not lying. They don't necessarily believe you're telling the truth: They may think you're just crazy. The same thing would happen if you, say, told a Fighter that you were really Ao in disguise and he needed to give you all his money.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-11, 12:54 AM
A) Glibness does not stack with itself.

B) A successful Bluff check does not allow you to mind-control someone. It means that they believe you're not lying. They don't necessarily believe you're telling the truth: They may think you're just crazy. The same thing would happen if you, say, told a Fighter that you were really Ao in disguise and he needed to give you all his money.
A) I know that, but it does make your Bluff check insanely high.

B) I thought a successful Bluff check meant they did think you were telling the truth. Ah, well.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 12:56 AM
Taking a -50 penalty on your Bluff check allows you to make a nonmagical suggestion, as per the spell of the same name.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-11, 01:25 AM
Taking a -50 penalty on your Bluff check allows you to make a nonmagical suggestion, as per the spell of the same name.
Which a Cha-monkey rogue can easily do, and still meet the requirements of the Vigilante class. Unfortunately, Bluff isn't a class skill for the Vigilante.
A friend of mine made a build that could Bluff with like +95.

Mewtarthio
2007-02-11, 01:30 AM
A) I know that, but it does make your Bluff check insanely high.

B) I thought a successful Bluff check meant they did think you were telling the truth. Ah, well.

A) My bad, I thought that when you mentioned "33 Glibnesses" you meant "stack 33 Glibnesses for a +990 bonus."

B) Well, as Bears pointed out, beating the Sense Motive by fifty has that effect so long as it's allowed under Suggestion. But that comes with the caveat "must seem reasonable." If you attempt to suggest someone into believing that lava is healthy, and they fail their Will save, they'll realize how ridiculous that is and know they're being influenced. If you attempt to Bluff someone into believing that lava is healthy, and you succeed on the Bluff check (so they don't realize you just want them dead), they'll realize how ridiculous that is and decide you must really be insane.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-11, 01:41 AM
No, you have to make the activity sound reasonable. It doesn't have to actually BE reasonable.

Kantolin
2007-02-11, 02:17 AM
If you attempt to Bluff someone into believing that lava is healthy, and you succeed on the Bluff check (so they don't realize you just want them dead), they'll realize how ridiculous that is and decide you must really be insane.

Incidentally, that may make someone believe that lava is healthy, but still be a bit uncomfortable about trying it.

I mean, lots of people are uncomfortable about flying despite statistics which state that flying is safer than driving.

Edit: On the other hand, I'd let "Run for your lives! It's the Tarrasque!" and "I just cast Water Breathing on you." slide. ^_^ Although in the second case, that would imply the person had some incentive to get into water beforehand.

Golthur
2007-02-11, 01:42 PM
DM should've forced you to make an entire pile of Craft checks. By definition, masterwork swords have a high degree of craftsmanship. DC of 15 + DC of 20 for each of them. And you probably would've only been able to make two of them, considering Fabricate requires materials of equal cost, and a masterwork sword costs 300 gp, and a Wall of Iron, at caster level 20, is barely over 1000 gp.

As I mentioned elsewhere, the entire "wall of iron" thing is pretty minor. If the cost were 500 gp instead of 50, there'd be little to no profit in it, assuming half sale.

Covered that. I had sunk ranks in Craft (Weaponsmith) in advance, and used the spell Wieldskill from FR. I nailed masterwork by taking a 10. :biggrin:

As for the materials cost, it's less than you think. You only need 1/3 the final cost for raw materials.

But, you're right, it took time to do. Still, we had approximately a month of downtime, so it was no big deal.

Arceliar
2007-02-11, 05:25 PM
This may be redundant to say, but that 33 level 3 spells per day or whatever was a typo... the 2nd number should have been 1 column over, in the 4th level slot...

Just wanted to clarify that for anyone who didn't have the book..

Here's a good one. Warlocks can create magic items significantly stronger than they should via boosting UMD checks to insane amounts. It says if he makes the (rather easy to succeed on) check he can create a magic item "as if he had cast the required spell."

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

However, the Imbue Item class feature states as if he had cast the spell, the same way a Bard can make a scroll of Magic Mouth at caster level 2 and a wizard has to wait till 3.

At least, it appears that way to me. I've been trying to find some rule that says otherwise but thus far have not. Even if it's not okay at pre-epic (for some reason I have yet to find), this can become almost (or in some cases more than) as broken as epic spells if warlocks get Scribe Epic Scroll.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-12, 12:35 AM
This may be redundant to say, but that 33 level 3 spells per day or whatever was a typo... the 2nd number should have been 1 column over, in the 4th level slot...

Just wanted to clarify that for anyone who didn't have the book..
I know, but since the Scorpion Whip (1d43) was mentioned, I thought I'd say this one too.

Wehrkind
2007-02-12, 02:11 AM
You could think of cleave as "cleaving two attacks into one action" since you in essence get two attacks for the price of one.

Go go antonymous synonyms!

Arceliar
2007-02-12, 01:33 PM
Thought of another one...

Cloak Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance): The feat lets you take a move action to gain concealment, or a full-round action to gain total concealment. Despite the name, it never states that you're required to have a cloak.

Now, this may be a bit redundant as you can just take a full round for total concealment, but I for one thing it's funnier. You can use a move action to gain concealment, then use the Bluff for diversion + Hide combo, and hide behind yourself.

Think about it.

NullAshton
2007-02-12, 01:49 PM
Thought of another one...

Cloak Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance): The feat lets you take a move action to gain concealment, or a full-round action to gain total concealment. Despite the name, it never states that you're required to have a cloak.

Now, this may be a bit redundant as you can just take a full round for total concealment, but I for one thing it's funnier. You can use a move action to gain concealment, then use the Bluff for diversion + Hide combo, and hide behind yourself.

Think about it.

Artfully avoiding your enemies gaze?

barawn
2007-02-12, 02:06 PM
Well, another thread led me to remember: I always thought it was odd Feint doesn't require you to be able to melee attack your opponent when you do it. It just requires you to make an attack before or on your next turn.

Which means that you could Feint from 60 feet away (or more with higher movement/whatever), deny your opponent his Dex bonus, and next round Charge and nail him. I consider it a "glitch" because the idea that you're paying attention to someone 60 or 80 feet (or farther) away is silly.

There's another use for Improved Feint as well. Before combat starts, you can Feint twice - once as a move action, once as a standard action. Whoever it succeeds against, you charge and nail them.

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 04:23 PM
Feinting in Combat

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively).

Unless you have lots of reach, its hard to be in melee combat at 60-80 feet.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-12, 04:24 PM
For ranged sneak attackers, Tome of Battle has a feat that lets you make people count as flanked, period, for (I think) a minute if you succeed on an Intimidate check. They still count as flanked if you're shooting at'em.

barawn
2007-02-12, 04:35 PM
Unless you have lots of reach, its hard to be in melee combat at 60-80 feet.

True - although the description for Feint doesn't mention that at all. Hence my confusion. It doesn't say that you have to be in melee combat with the person you're Feinting, though. But that's just silly.

Hyfigh
2007-02-12, 05:15 PM
Almost forgot...

Leap Attack + Shock Trooper + Battle Jump + a reliable way to pounce (Psionic Lion's Charge, Snow Tiger Berserker, ect.) = Massive amounts of damage.

Josh Inno
2007-02-12, 05:27 PM
Weapon substance layout for rare substances is off. For example, you can't have an adamantine spear because the majority is made out of wood. However, the business end is metal, so shouldn't that be the important part?


I actually covered that part with a friend of mine recently. Spears tend to bend when you strike with them, they also wobble, and tend to shatter if you strike to hard with them. Making the tip out of a better metal just means that when the spear bows out due to the shaft being made of the same old wood, the tip doesn't get dinged up any. The weakness in the weapon is in the wood. So making the spear tip stronger doesn't really help any.

Indon
2007-02-12, 05:32 PM
I actually covered that part with a friend of mine recently. Spears tend to bend when you strike with them, they also wobble, and tend to shatter if you strike to hard with them. Making the tip out of a better metal just means that when the spear bows out due to the shaft being made of the same old wood, the tip doesn't get dinged up any. The weakness in the weapon is in the wood. So making the spear tip stronger doesn't really help any.

This addresses hardness-increasing metals like Adamantine, sure, but what about special metals that would penetrate nonsolid defenses such as cold iron and silver?

I suspect the rule was first designed before this point was really brought up, and exists purely for consistency now.

NullAshton
2007-02-12, 05:38 PM
For ranged sneak attackers, Tome of Battle has a feat that lets you make people count as flanked, period, for (I think) a minute if you succeed on an Intimidate check. They still count as flanked if you're shooting at'em.

Hmmm... combined with a bluff check to make people think you're not just intimidating them... you can seriously freak people out by sneak attacking every round, with no noticeable reason as to how you're sneak attacking!

You would be seriously freaked out if someone constantly every round did something that looks like a critical hit. Muuwaahaahaa...

Mewtarthio
2007-02-12, 05:48 PM
Hmmm... combined with a bluff check to make people think you're not just intimidating them... you can seriously freak people out by sneak attacking every round, with no noticeable reason as to how you're sneak attacking!

You would be seriously freaked out if someone constantly every round did something that looks like a critical hit. Muuwaahaahaa...

But if you trick someone into thinking they haven't been intimidated, doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of intimidation?

Gamebird
2007-02-12, 05:53 PM
But if you trick someone into thinking they haven't been intimidated, doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of intimidation?

That's like making an illusion of something invisible. Which technically, you *can* do. Easy way to freak out your players! (Especially if you're the one rolling the miss chance, secretly.)

Quietus
2007-02-12, 05:57 PM
Illusion out of something invisible? I suppose that would have to be something with only audible, olfactory, and thermal effects?

I would say you don't so much bluff them into thinking they've been intimidated, so much as let them be shaken, but bluff them into thinking someone else intimidated them.

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 06:02 PM
True - although the description for Feint doesn't mention that at all. Hence my confusion. It doesn't say that you have to be in melee combat with the person you're Feinting, though. But that's just silly.
...
I just quoted where it does say that. From the SRD.



Feinting in Combat

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively).

Jayabalard
2007-02-12, 06:18 PM
But then, if it's difficult terrain (i.e. requiring double movement), a diagonal is just counted as 3 squares (15 ft.).3 isn't really that far off from 2.8284271247461900976033774484194

nor is 1.5 that far off from 1.4142135623730950488016887242097

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 07:28 PM
But by the time you hit "9" squares (i.e. 45 ft.) going directly diagonal, you've really only gone 8.48528137422 squares, which is closer to 8 than it is 9.

barawn
2007-02-12, 07:58 PM
...
I just quoted where it does say that. From the SRD.

That's not the description for Feint. That's the description for Bluff.

Quietus
2007-02-12, 08:32 PM
But by the time you hit "9" squares (i.e. 45 ft.) going directly diagonal, you've really only gone 8.48528137422 squares, which is closer to 8 than it is 9.

That's really starting to bite at things that aren't all that important. I'm sure if you wanted to start showing your math (*Sounds of catgirls screaming*), some DM's would give you that one free square every 18 diagonals. Personally I'd tell you that you just moved 90 feet, five more isn't gonna make a huge difference.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 08:49 PM
That's really starting to bite at things that aren't all that important.
Isn't that what this thread is really about? :smalltongue:

Quietus
2007-02-12, 09:06 PM
I suppose you do have a point there. :smalltongue:

NullAshton
2007-02-12, 09:32 PM
But if you trick someone into thinking they haven't been intimidated, doesn't that defeat the entire purpose of intimidation?
Not trick someone into thinking they haven't been intimidating. Bluffing to make them think that the cause came after the effect. Make them think that they're intimidated, BECAUSE you hit with a sneak attack every single time.

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 10:27 PM
That's not the description for Feint. That's the description for Bluff.
To Feint is too Blooove... (sorry, movie reference)

Quoting the whole section so maybe youll get it


Feinting in Combat

You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it can’t dodge your next attack effectively). To feint (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint), make a Bluff check opposed by your target’s Sense Motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm) check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.
If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/senseMotive.htm) check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) in this way against a nonhumanoid is difficult because it’s harder to read a strange creature’s body language; you take a -4 penalty on your Bluff check. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2) it’s even harder; you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.
Feinting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#feint) in combat does not provoke an attack of opportunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm).



Using the Feint option in combat uses the Feinting in combat section of Bluff.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 10:31 PM
Using the Feint option in combat uses the Feinting in combat section of Bluff.
Or does it use the "Feint" section of "Special Attacks" in "Combat" (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html#feint)?

Which is the primary source? :smalltongue:

barawn
2007-02-12, 10:31 PM
Sigh. I'll quote the Feint section in the SRD, so you understand.


Feint

Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check by your target. The target may add his base attack bonus to this Sense Motive check. If your Bluff check result exceeds your target’s Sense Motive check result, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid you take a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), you take a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

There's nothing there about needing to be in melee combat with the opponent being targeted. It should be in both sections. It's just a stupid omission.

Rigeld2
2007-02-12, 10:40 PM
There's nothing there about needing to be in melee combat with the opponent being targeted. It should be in both sections. It's just a stupid omission.
I disagree. Always read the skill that youre using (see those links? Thats what theyre for) because the skill should be the primary source.

Nevertheless, its not the case that you can Feint from 60 feet away.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 10:42 PM
Despite my jesting post above: the rules for feinting are a lot like the rules for Spell-like abilities. Though spell-like abilities are described in at least three separate sections, only one place ever mentions that they don't need any sort of component.

The primary source rule is meant to head off conflicts. There is no direct conflict. It's just the full rules for feinting are under the Bluff skill. Just like the full rules for Spell-like abilities are in... oh, heck, I'm too lazy to look it up right now... but they don't directly contradict any of the other items that don't mention their lack of components.

barawn
2007-02-12, 10:55 PM
What is the definition of a melee opponent, anyway? Someone in a square that you can hit with a melee weapon you're wielding? Or is it just an opponent in a square you're threatening (no feinting with a whip, then)?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-02-12, 11:01 PM
"Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other."
–From the section on "Shooting or Throwing into Melee (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/actionsInCombat.html#shooting-or-throwing-into-melee)."

"Melee combat consists of physical blows exchanged by opponents close enough to threaten one another's space, as opposed to ranged combat."
–From the PHB Glossary entry for "Melee" (best place to look for definitions)

barawn
2007-02-12, 11:13 PM
"Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens each other."
–From the section on "Shooting or Throwing into Melee (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/actionsInCombat.html#shooting-or-throwing-into-melee)."

"Melee combat consists of physical blows exchanged by opponents close enough to threaten one another's space, as opposed to ranged combat."
–From the PHB Glossary (best place to look for definitions)

So no feinting with a whip (whips don't threaten). That's bizarre.

Edit: OK, there's the glitch. Someone can spend an entire round flicking a whip around your feet, and you'll just ignore it. Love taps! :smallsmile:

Jack Zander
2007-02-12, 11:28 PM
Hugging your friends lets you move faster.

From the SRD:

Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

Seeing this, you can have 5 people grapple each other at a time. Those 5 people can drag each other on their turns at half their speed. While each person drags on his turn, the others purposely fail their grapple checks to allow them to be dragged. This allows the entire group to drag each other at 75 feet per round (5 * 15) if they each have speed 30. And if the middle man is human and the rest halflings (8 instead of 4 for a total of 9 grapplers ), they travel at 95 feet per round (15 + 8 * 10). Overland movement at 6 miles per hour hussle? Pfft, overland movement at 7.5 - 9.5 miles per hour while performing an action that never tires you.

Collin152
2007-02-12, 11:33 PM
Yay for phantom speeds!

Jack Zander
2007-02-12, 11:43 PM
Oh, and don't forget to grapple yourselves into a 5 by 5 foot room and lock the door, then have everyone disengage. Everyone (excluding the middle man) is shunted to their own nearest open space... which happens to be through a wall. Who needs etherealness or dimension door? Just fill a room with summoned creatures, followers, etc. and teleport your party through walls that way.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-02-13, 12:21 AM
Now I have a mental image of a Katamari Damacy-like ball of people grappling each other. Thanks?

Rigeld2
2007-02-13, 07:07 AM
So no feinting with a whip (whips don't threaten). That's bizarre.
The key phrase is either threatens the other. If youre both using whips, yeah no Bluffing. If youre using a whip and hes using a sword, bluff away.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-13, 07:26 AM
Hugging your friends lets you move faster.

From the SRD:


Seeing this, you can have 5 people grapple each other at a time. Those 5 people can drag each other on their turns at half their speed. While each person drags on his turn, the others purposely fail their grapple checks to allow them to be dragged. This allows the entire group to drag each other at 75 feet per round (5 * 15) if they each have speed 30. And if the middle man is human and the rest halflings (8 instead of 4 for a total of 9 grapplers ), they travel at 95 feet per round (15 + 8 * 10). Overland movement at 6 miles per hour hussle? Pfft, overland movement at 7.5 - 9.5 miles per hour while performing an action that never tires you.

Ahh, multiperson grappling.

http://www.acc.umu.se/~zqad/cats/1161382097-1160818052670.jpg

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-13, 07:30 AM
You like cats, don't you.

On the vigilante spells thing, think about the arcane strike synergy.

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 07:44 AM
One of the major glitches is that I cannot find anything that says that fighters have to sleep, or that they get penalties from not sleeping. About the only thing that it talks about is being fatigued if they sleep in medium or heavy armor. So... why sleep? Just let the fighter stay up all night!

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-13, 07:45 AM
Because they get fatigued. If you're already fatigued when something else would make you fatigued, you're exhausted. Being fatigued carries penalties; being exhausted carries even bigger ones.

Of course, the Warblade can use the Iron Heart Surge maneuver to remove his own fatigue. Therefore, he never needs to sleep.

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 07:48 AM
But if the fighter never does something that makes him fatigued...

Rigeld2
2007-02-13, 07:54 AM
All Humanoids have to sleep. I'm not sure if/where it spells out what happens if you dont, but it says that you have to here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 08:04 AM
So... if you DON'T sleep, what happens?

martyboy74
2007-02-13, 08:12 AM
Anyone know what happens when when you create the illusion of light (in the dark)?

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 08:14 AM
Anyone know what happens when when you create the illusion of light (in the dark)?

If it's a shadow conjuration Light spell, then you have the interesting effect of anyone who has a good will save being blind.

Indon
2007-02-13, 08:53 AM
If it's a shadow conjuration Light spell, then you have the interesting effect of anyone who has a good will save being blind.

I'm pretty sure individuals innately know if a spell they're to save against is going to be harmful or not, and get a general feel of its' potential effect.

And in the case of illusions, I'm pretty sure you have to see it before you make your saving throw (and thus, decide to fail your saving throw or not).

NullAshton
2007-02-13, 09:01 AM
I'm pretty sure individuals innately know if a spell they're to save against is going to be harmful or not, and get a general feel of its' potential effect.

And in the case of illusions, I'm pretty sure you have to see it before you make your saving throw (and thus, decide to fail your saving throw or not).

But how would you know what type of spell you're saving against?

Also works with shadow conjuration stone walls over a pit trap. Hey, where'd the wizard go?

AtomicKitKat
2007-02-13, 09:40 AM
Ahh, multiperson grappling.

http://www.acc.umu.se/%7Ezqad/cats/1161382097-1160818052670.jpg

Dare I say it? FURPILE!:smallbiggrin:

Bender
2007-02-13, 10:42 AM
a 5 year old toddler, with an amulet of the mighty fist decides to go kicking a great wyrm gold dragon, the great wyrm gold dragon decides not to react. The toddler takes -4 on his attack rolls to do lethal damage, his size is small, so he deals 1d2+1 damage, overcoming the damage reduction with the amulet. He hits 5% of the times. in 40 rounds, he hits for an average of 5 damage. The dragon has 717 hp: in 40x147 rounds, the dragon is below -10 and death. This takes 588 minutes or less than 10 hours. There is no reason in the rules why the toddler should get tired.

ok, I had to throw in a magic item, because I was to lazy to search for the highest CR monster without damage reduction or regeneration.

to keep the dragon from reacting, you would of course have to chain him up real tight and put him in an antimagic field.

still, I just don't see a toddler even tickling trough the thick scales of a dragon

Gamebird
2007-02-13, 12:10 PM
As long as we're complaining about stupid rules, how about the ability of any melee character with Power Attack being able to dig through solid stone at phenomenal speeds, without damaging their weapon?

Jothki
2007-02-13, 12:19 PM
a 5 year old toddler, with an amulet of the mighty fist decides to go kicking a great wyrm gold dragon, the great wyrm gold dragon decides not to react. The toddler takes -4 on his attack rolls to do lethal damage, his size is small, so he deals 1d2+1 damage, overcoming the damage reduction with the amulet. He hits 5% of the times. in 40 rounds, he hits for an average of 5 damage. The dragon has 717 hp: in 40x147 rounds, the dragon is below -10 and death. This takes 588 minutes or less than 10 hours. There is no reason in the rules why the toddler should get tired.

ok, I had to throw in a magic item, because I was to lazy to search for the highest CR monster without damage reduction or regeneration.

to keep the dragon from reacting, you would of course have to chain him up real tight and put him in an antimagic field.

still, I just don't see a toddler even tickling trough the thick scales of a dragon

It's not just a toddler, it's a toddler with a magical item.

Penguinizer
2007-02-13, 12:46 PM
2 words, pun pun.

barawn
2007-02-13, 01:16 PM
The key phrase is either threatens the other. If youre both using whips, yeah no Bluffing. If youre using a whip and hes using a sword, bluff away.

Exactly. Two people, both weilding whips, standing next two each other. Neither can make a move to try to draw the other off guard (until the first pulls out a dagger and makes a stabbity stabbity motion, before putting the dagger away and attacking with the whip). Seems a little odd.

Dark
2007-02-13, 01:20 PM
All Humanoids have to sleep. I'm not sure if/where it spells out what happens if you dont, but it says that you have to here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#humanoidType
That just says that humanoids sleep. Not that they have to. It gives them the ability, in case they want to.

Altairius
2007-02-13, 01:31 PM
That just says that humanoids sleep. Not that they have to. It gives them the ability, in case they want to.

That's like saying that humanoids have the ability to breathe, or exist, but don't have to.
I think that's reading way too literally to even be a glitch.


However, on the other hand, it would be handy to be able to choose when you exist, just because they said you could, but didn't have to...

Gamebird
2007-02-13, 01:34 PM
But as the Giant beat to death in the Foolishly Answered Questions, it doesn't say how often or how much you have to sleep. He suggested that somewhere in your backstory, you should stipulate that when you were an adolescent, you slept for a few hours, thus satisfying the requirement that you have, at some point in time, slept.

makata kenoza
2010-02-08, 05:27 PM
Don't forget Enlarge Person followed immediately by Permanency. Then, when you hit epic, take the Oversized Weapon feat, and suddenly you're wielding a gargantuan weapon. With gargantuan reach.:smallamused:

coming from the def of enlarge person.... Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. if that is that case then xpansion and enlarge person can not be used in conjunction with each other

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-08, 05:31 PM
coming from the def of enlarge person.... Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,. if that is that case then xpansion and enlarge person can not be used in conjunction with each other

My goodness, that is some of most powerful necromancy I have ever seen!

makata kenoza
2010-02-08, 05:36 PM
now i may have completely missed this as far as other threads go, when it comes to the ladder into gold deally. one thing i saw repeatedly was that the poles would have holes in them...would it not just be possible to have a ladder with the rungs lashed on to them like they did in very old times...then not only do you have completely structurely sound poles but also extra lengths of rope

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-08, 05:39 PM
My goodness, that is some of most powerful necromancy I have ever seen!

Necromancy implies that there was a corpse. makata kenoza just revived a thread from pure dust.

kjones
2010-02-08, 05:47 PM
I didn't notice the dates until I saw that BwL had posted, and I went :smallconfused:

Kobold-Bard
2010-02-08, 06:07 PM
Got half way down the front page before I realised how old this was. Naughty makata.

But as long as it's open, did anyone ever find a d43?

makata kenoza
2010-02-08, 09:12 PM
hahah...ooppps...guess i should be looking into the dates myself!!!!! but even with pure dust ive got part of the thread that once was, so i should be able to cast Resurrection on it!!!!

Roderick_BR
2010-02-08, 09:36 PM
No it doesnt: I says, USUALLY dropping it bellow 0 hit points or killing it. These are ways to make the creature drop. That creates an opening that can be explored. :smalltongue:
Then it should be everytime a creature is tripped or falls.

And removing the spikes from a spiked chain will give you a chain... and a lot of spike points. I don't know if it'll be useable without a good smith work. The chain can still be used if you don't break it though.

And who will buy a pole full of holes? :smalltongue: