Leap attack + power attack

[Forks]

Ok question about a lv6 Barb char in a game Im DMing. If he has Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack, is the following possible:

Take -6 to attack rolls for +6 on damage. He's using 2H weapon, so it becomes +12 damage.

The attack penalty is applied to AC due to Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge.

Leap Attack then takes the normal damage bonus of +12 from Power Attack and triples it to become +36.

Finally, his Str while raging is +5, so he gets +5 to attack and +7 to damage.

His end numbers on an opening charge/leap attack with these feats turns out to be: +11 attack and +43 damage. At level 6. He does of course have a really terrible AC at this point, but he's definitely taken a big chunk out of the encounter with that opening.

This seems kinda crazy. Is this the way these feats are supposed to interact? The only other thing I can think of is that Leap Attack modifies the +6 damage to become +18.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not only that, but here's something more fun:

A Spiked Chain is a two-handed weapon, which means it gets the exact same bonuses.

So go Fighter2. Grab EWP: Spiked Chain and Combat Expertise

Continue Barbarian. At 9th level, grab Improved Trip.

Not only can you do all that, but you can also trip people before making your uber attack, and forcing them to provoke an AoO by getting back up for another round of damage-dealing goodness.

Base damage of Greatsword: 2d6
Base damage of a Spiked Chain: 2d4
Average loss of damage per hit: 2 points
Keeping people from closing with you and your buddies while you turn them into past: Priceless.

[Bears With Lasers]

Yes, that's how it works. Yes, it's powerful. Shock Trooper is the real problem; ban it if the single-strike damage output is the problem.

(Or, since he doesn't have Elusive Target and Karmic Strike, have something that can survive it Power Attack *him* back on a full attack, smashing in his dropped AC.)

[Zherog]

No, that's not how it works.


Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:

If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

So, in your example, Power Attacking for 6 with a two-handed weapon gives you +18 damage - your 6, the double from using a two-handed weapon, then +6 for your "normal" bonus damage.

[Roland St. Jude]

No, that's not how it works.

So, in your example, Power Attacking for 6 with a two-handed weapon gives you +18 damage - your 6, the double from using a two-handed weapon, then +6 for your "normal" bonus damage.

I agree, except that your normal damage from power attack is +12. So your damage should be +24. I think 4:1 is the generally accepted PowerAttack/LeapAttack output.

[JaronK]

Indeed, it's 4:1 returns, so it should be 24 in that case. If he gets Frenzied Berserker 10, it's 6:1. Power attacking with a two handed weapon doesn't give you 1:1 returns and then double it... it just gives 2:1 damage. Leap attack doubles that.

And yes, it's powerful. Then again, it's one of the few things melees can do really well at high level, so I see little problem with it. After all, he's a character focused on charging in like a crazed maniac and killing things. That's exactly what he can do. If the wizard gets jealous he can always launch a save or die and kill the thing outright anyway.

JaronK

[Zherog]

Leap attack doubles that.

JaronK

Be careful how you word that. In that single, specific example it doubles it. But it won't always double it. Leap Attack adds 100% the normal value. If you have something else that adds on (I know there's something out there, I just can't remember what it is), Leap Attack doesn't do diddly or squat with it. ;)

[The_Snark]

Leap Attack specifically states that if you use it with a two-handed weapon, the damage is tripled. It's a little ambiguous, and there are two ways of looking at it, but I have no idea where 4:1 comes from.

Number 1: The tripled is on top of the standard double for a two-handed weapon, meaning a 6: 1 ratio. This is pretty absurd, and I don't think that was how it was meant to work.

Number 2: The tripled is instead of the standard double for using a two-handed weapon, meaning a 3:1 ratio. This is, I think, the intention behind the feat.

Does anyone else miss the rule from 3.0, which states that unless otherwise ruled, any doubling of something that's already doubled (i.e. Spirited Charge with a lance, lance with critical hit) triples it, and so on? I was sorta surprised to learn that that basic rule isn't there anymore. It certainly makes calculating a Frenzied Berserker's damage a lot harder.

[ken-do-nim]

Number 2: The tripled is instead of the standard double for using a two-handed weapon, meaning a 3:1 ratio. This is, I think, the intention behind the feat.


Until this thread came along, I never even knew you could read it differently. So yeah, I'm in total agreement with you Snark; leap attack boosts 1:1 to 2:1 and 2:1 to 3:1. I still think it's a very good feat, but not out of this world amazing.

Btw there's a feat in PHII called Brutal Strike that sickens the opponent of a power attack with a dc of 10 + the bonus damage. So if you take off 9 points from your to hit and power leap attack for 27 damage, the dc is 37, already nearly impossible. With these 4:1 and 6:1 interpretations, the dc would be off the scale. Of course, most people don't take 9 points off without shock trooper to back it up.

[Arbitrarity]

K, here's what happens. Rage, charge, shock trooper, leap attack.

-6 to AC, -10 total (rage/charge), +13 to hit (+2 charge bonus) (14 with MW, which he likely has), +6x3 + 7 to damage, or 25.

So with a greatsword he deals 2d6+25, with +13 to hit, and a -10 to AC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't pass up Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes if you're using a Shock Trooper build.

Everyone who hits you gets hit back... hard.

Remember, all your PA bonuses last until your next turn. So all your AoO that round are similarly nasty. Since you're a Barb, you've likely got high Con and highest hit die in the game, so you can take a hit or three to return the favor with interest.

[Forks]

Yea I do remember the 2 X 2 = 3 rule. Im leaning towards the 3:1 interpretation as a result. Its definitely still powerful, just not mind-boggling.

I havent quite had to deal with the danger of well-played caster classes yet...everyone who plays my games seems to make some variant of a melee dude or a blaster caster.

[Thrawn183]

K, here's what happens. Rage, charge, shock trooper, leap attack.

-6 to AC, -10 total (rage/charge), +13 to hit (+2 charge bonus) (14 with MW, which he likely has), +6x3 + 7 to damage, or 25.

So with a greatsword he deals 2d6+25, with +13 to hit, and a -10 to AC.

I myself am playing a level 2 barbarian (barb 4, fighter 2) with reckless rage, charge, shock trooper, leap attack. So instead of a mere -10 to AC, he has -12. Conversely he has a +16 to hit. I don't think its unbalanced because of the imense loss of AC that accompanies such an attack.

I actually thought this was a thread started by my DM about my character for a second before I realized it was a just slightly less specialized barb.

[Rigeld2]

How do you get -12 AC? 6 from Shock Trooper, 2 from charge, 2 from rage...

[JaronK]

Leap Attack specifically states that if you use it with a two-handed weapon, the damage is tripled. It's a little ambiguous, and there are two ways of looking at it, but I have no idea where 4:1 comes from.

Number 1: The tripled is on top of the standard double for a two-handed weapon, meaning a 6: 1 ratio. This is pretty absurd, and I don't think that was how it was meant to work.

Number 2: The tripled is instead of the standard double for using a two-handed weapon, meaning a 3:1 ratio. This is, I think, the intention behind the feat.

Does anyone else miss the rule from 3.0, which states that unless otherwise ruled, any doubling of something that's already doubled (i.e. Spirited Charge with a lance, lance with critical hit) triples it, and so on? I was sorta surprised to learn that that basic rule isn't there anymore. It certainly makes calculating a Frenzied Berserker's damage a lot harder.

First of all, the feat has been errataed, hence your confusion. It now simply adds 100% of what you would otherwise have gotten.

Thus, 1:1 becomes 2:1 and 2:1 becomes 4:1.

This has been gone over many times.

The "double twice is a triple" rule is still in effect... that's why the Frenzied Berserker doubling combined with leap attack gives 6:1. The point here is that weilding a two handed weapon doesn't double your power attack. It simply sets it at 2:1 returns.

JaronK

[ken-do-nim]

First of all, the feat has been errataed, hence your confusion. It now simply adds 100% of what you would otherwise have gotten.

Thus, 1:1 becomes 2:1 and 2:1 becomes 4:1.

This has been gone over many times.

The "double twice is a triple" rule is still in effect... that's why the Frenzied Berserker doubling combined with leap attack gives 6:1. The point here is that weilding a two handed weapon doesn't double your power attack. It simply sets it at 2:1 returns.

JaronK

I read the errata the way Zherog does (quoted below). Maybe it's been gone over many times, but that doesn't mean we're wrong. It all depends on the reading of 'normal bonus damage'. If normal bonus damage is 1:1 (with two-handed weapons being an exception, thus not normal), then +100% for a two-handed weapon becomes 3:1. This way of reading it is in line with the actual feat description, which talks about doubling the power attack damage for a one-handed weapon and tripling (3:1) for a two-handed weapon. Thus we believe that the errata clarifies, rather than changes, the feat to make sure people don't do 6:1.



No, that's not how it works.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete Adventurer Errata
Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:

If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

So, in your example, Power Attacking for 6 with a two-handed weapon gives you +18 damage - your 6, the double from using a two-handed weapon, then +6 for your "normal" bonus damage.

[ken-do-nim]

Now for some fun. Here's putting it all together in a fighter build:

H - Power Attack
1 - Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain
F1 - Dodge
F2 - Combat Reflexes
3 - Combat Expertise
F4 - Improved Bull Rush
6 - Leap Attack
F6 - Shock Trooper
F8 - Improved Trip
9 - Karmic Strike
F10 - Brutal Strike
12 - Powerful Charge
F12 - Greater Powerful Charge
F14 - Mobility
15 - Elusive Target
F16 - Weapon Focus Spiked Chain or Combat Focus if wis 13
18 - Weapon Specialization Spiked Chain or Combat Defense
F18 - Melee Weapon Mastery Spiked Chain or Combat Stability
Then 2 levels barbarian.

[JaronK]

Ken, that's just not how it works. No where does it say that the "normal" power attack damage ratio is 1:1. What it says is that it doesn't work at all for Light Weapons, gives 1:1 returns for 1 handed weapons, and gives 2:1 returns for two handed weapons. That's it. The 2:1 isn't doubling the 1:1, it's just a seperate figure for a different sort of weapon... just like the 1:1 isn't infinitely multiplying the 0:1 ratio of Light Weapons.

In D&D, when you double a double, you get triple... but when you double 2, you get 4.

JaronK

[Person_Man]

I while back I sent WotC Cust Serv a question, asking what the exact ratio was for Leap Attack, and how it stacked with the Frenzied Berserker Supreme Power Attack ability. Initially, they gave me some crazy math. I thought it was BS, so I posted it on the Optimization boards (generally the best source of info on RAW). It caused a lot of argument. Not long afterwards I got this reply from Cust Serv:


There was a revisit to the Leap Attack feat official answer, and it seems that I misunderstood what the answer was supposed to be. Because of our Help system, I'm able to send you this update and inform you how the rule is supposed to be properly adjudicated. This is passed down from the big dogs.

The 100% entry in the errata only applies to the second sentence. The 100% entry in the errata document was created to cut down on the confusion regarding the intent behind the word "double". They got rid of the "double" entry because it confused how it was supposed to work with other effects that "doubled" power attack damage.

The 3rd sentence is not changed. The "Tripled" entry is intended to replace the "doubled" entry mentioned in the Power Attack feat.

The final math behind the feat is as follows:

Power Attack + Leap Attack + one-handed weapon: -1 atk, +2 damage

Power Attack + Leap Attack + two-handed weapon: -1 atk, +3 damage

According to the errata, Leap Attack doesn’t add any more damage when used with a two-handed weapon than it does when used with a one-handed weapon. Either way, it is intended to add one more point of damage per point of attack penalty.

I'm very sorry for the confusion that has occurred regarding this issue. Hopefully this will help to solve any debates that have occurred due to the previous incorrect ruling on my part.

When coupled with Supreme Power Attack, the ratio would be: -1 atk, +7 damage.
I agree with this ruling - though obviously everything Cust Serv writes has to be taken with a grain of salt. They basically just hire college kids with a stack of D&D books to answer email. So their answers are equally as reliable (or unreliable) as any of the regulars on this board (who often disagree, because the rules are poorly written). But apparently it caused enough of a ruckus that someone important interceded, so maybe this ruling should be respected more then others.

[ken-do-nim]

Ken, that's just not how it works. No where does it say that the "normal" power attack damage ratio is 1:1. What it says is that it doesn't work at all for Light Weapons, gives 1:1 returns for 1 handed weapons, and gives 2:1 returns for two handed weapons. That's it. The 2:1 isn't doubling the 1:1, it's just a seperate figure for a different sort of weapon... just like the 1:1 isn't infinitely multiplying the 0:1 ratio of Light Weapons.

In D&D, when you double a double, you get triple... but when you double 2, you get 4.

JaronK

It kinda does say the normal power attack damage ratio is 1:1. If you look at the power attack feat description, the 1:1 ratio is described in the Benefit section. The two-handed exception is described in the Special section.

Edit: Vindication!



According to the errata, Leap Attack doesn’t add any more damage when used with a two-handed weapon than it does when used with a one-handed weapon. Either way, it is intended to add one more point of damage per point of attack penalty.


Hence, +100% normal power attack damage.

[Zherog]

Heh. Customer Service agrees with my initial interpretation? That means it must be wrong...

http://www.majik.be/smilies/uptosomething.gif

[Cobra]

Heh. Customer Service agrees with my initial interpretation? That means it must be wrong...

http://www.majik.be/smilies/uptosomething.gif

Sadly, you are quite correct that customer service is wrong on this one.

The rule for leap attack is:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

The errata for the frenzied berzerkers supreme power attack reads:


deals +100% the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat. In other words... wielding a two-handed ewapon gains a +4 bonus on damage rolls .. for each -1 penalty she applies to her attack rolls.

Both use the same +100% language. The Frenzied Berzerker entry is just a bit more informative and gives a specific example. The errata makes it pretty clear that leap attack gives a 4:1 ratio.

That being said, keeping it at a 3:1 ratio is probably a pretty decent houserule seeing as a good leap attack can end an encounter right off the bat and make a session less fun for everybody.

[ken-do-nim]

Both use the same +100% language. The Frenzied Berzerker entry is just a bit more informative and gives a specific example. The errata makes it pretty clear that leap attack gives a 4:1 ratio.

That being said, keeping it at a 3:1 ratio is probably a pretty decent houserule seeing as a good leap attack can end an encounter right off the bat and make a session less fun for everybody.

Ah Wizards. Always keeping us on our toes. I fully believe that the author of Leap Attack intended it to simply increase power attack damage by 1 additional point per point taken off. I wonder if the guy who wrote the errata was the same author. I also wonder if the guy who wrote the frenzied berserker errata was the same guy who wrote the leap attack errata. I'm guessing not. When it comes to D&D rules, I think you have to discern the spirit, the intent, of what is written.

Edit: Like my post about the defending bonus. I've written up a new character with defending armor spikes, but I don't think that was the intent of the defending weapon. I'm starting to feel slimy about it.

[jjpickar]

What book is leap attack in? Even a 3:1 ratio is pretty good and I like the greatsword. On top of that I need to give a fighter some more muscle. :smallbiggrin:

[ken-do-nim]

What book is leap attack in? Even a 3:1 ratio is pretty good and I like the greatsword. On top of that I need to give a fighter some more muscle. :smallbiggrin:

Leap Attack - Complete Adventurer.
Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge - Eberron Campaign Setting
Karmic Strike, Shock Trooper, Elusive Target - Complete Warrior
Brutal Strike, Melee Weapon Mastery, Combat Focus feats - Player's Handbook II

[Bears With Lasers]

The Powerful Charge feats are also from the Miniatures Handbook.

Edit: the Shock Trooper holy trinity involves Shock Trooper, for massive damage by killing your AC, Karmic Strike, to hit them back when they hit you... and on the defense side, Elusive Target, to negate their Power Attack so you don't get mauled.

[ken-do-nim]

The Powerful Charge feats are also from the Miniatures Handbook.

Edit: the Shock Trooper holy trinity involves Shock Trooper, for massive damage by killing your AC, Karmic Strike, to hit them back when they hit you... and on the defense side, Elusive Target, to negate their Power Attack so you don't get mauled.

Let me just tweak the build I posted earlier to move elusive target up. There, that gives the holy trinity by level 12, with brutal strike to go along with it.

H - Power Attack
1 - Exotic Weapon Spiked Chain
F1 - Dodge
F2 - Combat Reflexes
3 - Combat Expertise
F4 - Improved Bull Rush
6 - Leap Attack
F6 - Shock Trooper
F8 - Improved Trip
9 - Karmic Strike
F10 - Mobility
12 - Elusive Target
F12 - Brutal Strike
F14 - Powerful Charge or Combat Focus if wis 13
15 - Greater Powerful Charge or Combat Defense if wis 13
F16 - Weapon Focus Spiked Chain
18 - Weapon Specialization Spiked Chain
F18 - Melee Weapon Mastery Spiked Chain
F20 - Cleave

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's one
Half-Giant PsiWar5/Pyro4/Slayer10

Feat Progression:

1st: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (PsiWar bonus)
2nd: EWP: Spiked Chain (PsiWar Bonus)
3rd: Power Attack
4th: Improved Bull Rush
5th: Combat Reflexes (PsiWar Bonus)
6th: Karmic Strike
9th: Shock Trooper
12th: Leap Attack

You know what to do from there...

Ths build has the following advantages over your straight figher build:

1) Immune to mind-affecting stuff to keep his poor will save from shutting him down every time someone casts 'Hold Person' on him due to Slayer 9 ability Cerebral Immunity.

2) Manifesting Psionic Lion's Charge to get a Full Attack on a charge, so he gets 4 attacks rather than just one when he chooses to smite someone.

3) Can manifest Evasion Burst to give him Evasion for one reflex save as a swift action.

4) 4d6 fire ranged attack if you just can't close with them for some reason.

5) Effective Gargantuan size, thanks to manifesting Expansion and Powerful Build, means he gets insane bonuses to tripping and lots of extra damage.

What your build has over mine:

1) Dodge chain and Elusive Target. I might be able to fit it in with the remaining feats, but I don't know for certain since I don't have my books handy.

2) All the feats 12+ in your build, pretty much. I'm not so sure what they do, but there are MUCH better things to do than Greater Weapon Specialization, I'm fairly certain. Take, for example, being able to do 4d6 base damage with a spiked chain rather than 2d4... that alone ought to make up for the lack of damage from Greater Weapon Specialization.

All psionic material is straight from SRD.

Just be glad I don't have access to Swordsage right now... some of the things they can do are just obscene.

[ken-do-nim]

Good build, Shneekey. I don't know anything about the pyro and slayer classes, but the psychic warrior's gargantuan lion's charge makes it all worthwhile.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Good build, Shneekey. I don't know anything about the pyro and slayer classes, but the psychic warrior's gargantuan lion's charge makes it all worthwhile.


Pyro 4 gives the following abilities:

Flame Lash: Basically, lets you make a 15' flame whip (as a medium sized critter) which can be used to trip and PA. It's only a one handed weapon, but if your Chain goes away, it's a handy backup weapon

Weapon Afire: +2d6 fire damage on any weapon you wield

Fire Bolt: (Pyro Levels)d6 damage ranged touch attack at will

Slayer has the capstone ability at 9... Cerebral Immunity, which gives me a complete and total imunity to mental effects. Plus it's full BAB and only looses one level of manifesting. So it's like Eldrich Knight for psionics, only it actually does more than just manifest and BAB.

Yea, psionics is pretty beefy if you use it right. Another power you can pick up gives you like DR 6/-, which stacks with Adamantium Full Plate for a total of DR 9/-. Sure, you're getting hit a lot... not that you care, since they don't hurt. Body Adjustment is another one that is a heal self 1d12 for a PP cost. There's some fun stuff there.

[Roderick_BR]

I think the math is right...

To counter it, you can give the feat "Hold the Line" to the guy being attacked. It enables him to do attacks of opportunity against charging enemies. And equip him with a heavy lance. :smallwink:

[its_all_ogre]

the combo is hard, i have a gestalt barb/scout (L6) and she rocks.
but its not all powerful, most enemies have weaker frontline grunts anyway and the charge next turn from power attacking giants hurts. a lot.

plus invisible minions pcs do not know about etc.
tons of ways around it.

[JaronK]

In the end, it's just a way for melees to actually contribute at high level. Otherwise, they really can't (oh joy, I can stand under the flying dragon and shoot it for 1d8+3 with my nifty longboy. Oh wait, the Wizard just used spectral hand to launch a maximized shivering touch and killed it in one hit. Boy I feel useful). And even with this combo, they're still just good at swinging a sword (which they should be!) but they don't dominate the whole game.

JaronK