3.5 Bard am I missing something, or is this class really so bad?

[SliceandDiceKid]

I don't get it... So few spells. Slow progression. I'd legitimately like to know what they're good for aside from social and a few skills (which don't seem so hard to get from other classes)

[PaucaTerrorem]

ACFs and other class features you can get in splat. UMD as a class skill with the CHA and skill points to use it.

[SliceandDiceKid]

ACFs and other class features you can get in splat. UMD as a class skill with the CHA and skill points to use it.

Any noteworthy examples?

[Xerlith]

Weak compared to what?

Take a look at Dragonfire Inspiration optimized bard. +14d6 bonus damage per attack. For all your team. And GREAT list of spells.

And even if restricted to core, Bard is overshadowed only by the Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer.

[PaucaTerrorem]

And what's the PrC in CM? Lyrical Thaumaturge, I think it's called. Lets you continue inspiring and cast.

Check this out... http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/bards-handbook.html

[Urpriest]

First of all, those "so few spells" are better than about half of the available spellcasting classes. Bards still get Glitterdust, they still get Alter Self, and they can get one or the other at the same level a Sorceror gets them. Their spells slow down later, but they've also got a few good discounted spells like Otto's Irresistable Dance.

They've got great support in terms of Prestige Classes (Sublime Chord) and feats (Dragonfire Inspiration). They've got more skills than anyone except Rogues, so in those few situations where spellcasting fails they've still got options. Inspire Courage, even without Dragonfire Inspiration, is easily boosted to potent levels (some of the more extreme builds can give +8 to attack and damage, but even a basic low level build can give +3 to attack and damage, which translates to +9 damage for characters with Power Attack...and that's all for a single standard action, the bard can then spend the rest of combat fighting alongside their allies).

[Pluto!]

Having 6 levels of spells at all puts them in the top half of published classes, plus they have support from just about every single splat book or dragon issue, notably including Sublime Chord as an easy way to essentially catch up with Sorcerer spell casting and about a half dozen ways to profitably incorporate bard into melee builds.

Charisma is the easiest stat to build around, which gives them a lot of uses in an optimizer's hands. The dumb social skills they specialize in are incidentally the most broken and campaign-bending aspects of the skill system, and Bards have the tools to demonstrate that.

And their built-in class features aren't bad. The only time I saw someone go all-in on Bardic music, the ability to spam Suggestions wasn't something the DM could ignore.

[Waker]

Another person claiming Bards are weak?
Buffing- This is probably bards bread and butter. The "few" spells they get include excellent choices like Haste, Blur, Invisbility, Heroism and a ton of others. On top of which they have the unique ability of Bardic Music, which includes the ever popular Inspire Courage. Now maybe you aren't impressed by a +4 bonus to Attack and Damage rolls along with a bonus on saves against Charm/Fear. Don't worry, there are plenty of feats and items that can boost it, like the feats Song of the Heart or Dragonfire Inspiration, and let's not forget the snazzy Vest of Legends.
Knowledge- Let's face it, Bards are know-it-alls. Between having all Knowledges as a class skill, Bardic Knowledge as a class ability and numerous spells like Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore, Locate Object/Creature and way more others that I can be bothered to list, you have no shortage of options when it comes to finding out something. Frankly if you complain about a lack of resources, you're just being lazy.
Skills- You got 'em. The Bard rocks one of the most robust skill lists in the game, made even better by having one of the highest skill point totals. A bard can be a daring acrobat, sneaky burglar, charming diplomat and a weathered traveler. At the same time.
Doctor- I'm an entertainer, not a Doctor. Actually a bard can do admirably in both roles. Having access to the Cure line of spells, Neutralize Poison, Break Enchantment, Remove Curse and a few others can let Bards play Doctor whenever someone in the party has an owie.
Combat- A lot of people look at the Bard's medium BAB and automatically assume they can't contribute in combat with a sword. How wrong they are my friend. Even if you still think the Inspire Courage boosts don't cut the mustard, you've got other options to further boost your combat potential. Snowflake Wardance and Crystal Echoblades are just two of the options to turn your average singer into a sword swinging menace. To counter their relatively low HD, a Bard can make use of decent spells like Blur, Cat's Grace, Freedom of Movement and Dimension Door.
Crowd Control- When talking about Battlefield Control, the Bard isn't generally the first that comes to mind, but even they have a few options available. Summon Monster, Shadow Conjuration (Cloud effects are best), as well as the abundance of Illusion spells that can prevent line of sight and otherwise obscure the battlefield. Debuffs are also well within the means of a bard: Slow, Fear, Blindness/Deafness, and Silence are some favorites.
Use Magic Device- This is a skill that gets special mention. It is true that a Bard doesn't have a huge amount of spells known, but this skill combined with their above average charisma means that they can effectively emulate being a proper mage like the best of them. A bard who isn't properly utilizing this skill by always having a few scrolls or wands handy is tying their hands behind their back.

[Chronos]

Also don't forget that the Inspire Courage bonuses apply to every warm body on the bard's team. The druid's animal companion, the wizard's familiar, the paladin's mount, heck, a mundane animal someone bought, all get it. This becomes even more dramatic when you put the bard in a decent-sized military unit: In a platoon, that first-level guy with the fife or bagpipe might easily be contributing 50-some damage per round.

[Axinian]

I think Bard's tend to look bad at first because (in core) they don't have much that stands out immediately as special or flashy. But they do. They're spell list is good and pretty versatile. Inspire courage is a small bonus, but I've never heard of a single group that wasn't appreciative of it. Excellent skills, capable of filling many party roles at once in that regard.

It's just that none of these things are considered as "flashy" as being able to hit things very hard or wield PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWAH (though a bard is actually capable of both, even in core).

[Marnath]

Something I've heard suggested is keeping track of all the total hp damage done by each team member, and take all of the extra points from inspire courage and add them to the bard's tally. It adds up faster than you'd think.

[Piggy Knowles]

Something I've heard suggested is keeping track of all the total hp damage done by each team member, and take all of the extra points from inspire courage and add them to the bard's tally. It adds up faster than you'd think.

Don't forget to add the WHOLE total from any attacks that would have missed if not for Inspire Courage while you're at it. It's especially valuable when it comes to iterative attacks - suddenly that fighter's second attack that usually whiffs is hitting as much as his first.

[Yawgmoth]

Bards aren't incredible on their own, they are a force multiplier. A bard built to buff a certain party is going to turn each other member of that party (and possibly themselves as well after buffs; bards can go in many directions) into an absolute wrecking crew. Even semi-optimized a bard can give +8d6 damage (with DFI) and +8 to hit/damage, then start tossing spells that cripple enemies just as badly as the PCs got buffed.

[Adverb]

If you're not comfortable playing a support character, playing a Bard will probably suck. They're the best at very few things, but they tend to be really good for maxing out the other PCs at the table. Inspire Courage is the biggest, or at least most obvious piece of this, but it's true all around.

You do get Glibness, though. Glibness is pretty damned sweet.

[Amphetryon]

As a general baseline, it's often noted that - for any given party of 5 Characters - the Bard will be the 2nd best representative of any particular shtick: They'll likely clock in as roughly the 2nd best damage dealer (particularly when adding in their ability as a force multiplier), the 2nd best at BFC, the 2nd bast Skillmonkey, the 2nd best Blaster, and the 2nd best Healer (not the Class), etc. There are precious few other Classes - particularly in Core, and especially outside of high-op Tier 1 - that rank so highly in every facet of the game.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Weak compared to what?

Take a look at Dragonfire Inspiration optimized bard. +14d6 bonus damage per attack. For all your team. And GREAT list of spells.

And even if restricted to core, Bard is overshadowed only by the Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer.

A nice feat for sure. How on earth do you get the bonus so high? Wouldn't it only be +4d6?

[Piggy Knowles]

Inspirational Boost is a level 1 spell that gives you +1 to your inspire courage.

There are two items that increase your effective bard level for IC or improve the bonus, Badge of Valor and Vest of Legends.

Song of the Heart is an easy to qualify feat that gives you +1 to your inspire courage.

Words of Creation is a pain to qualify for, but it doubles all your bardic music bonuses. This gets a lot of attention because of how it interacts with IC, but I especially like it alongside Inspire Greatness.

[gorfnab]

A nice feat for sure. How on earth do you get the bonus so high? Wouldn't it only be +4d6?
This handbook has the information on how to bump up Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration.
Inspire Courage Optimization Handbook
(http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8936.0)

[khachaturian]

and just to be explicit, sublime chord gets you access to ninth level spells on a very versatile chassis

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

The only thing I can say I dislike about the 3.5 Bard is that at lvl 1 they know 0 lv 1 spells.

[Aliek]

They know 2 spells at lv1, they only have 0 slots. So only bonus slots apply.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Bards also get access to the awesome Doomspeak(CoR). It's one of the more powerful debuffs you'll find, it has a rapidly scaling DC and there's very few defenses against it.
That aside, insulting your enemy so hard he practically falls apart is just cool no matter how you look at it. :smallbiggrin:

They also get several spells one or even two levels lower than other casters and access to some very nice bard-only spells, which mitigates the slow progression somewhat.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

They know 2 spells at lv1, they only have 0 slots. So only bonus slots apply.

A quick peak at the d20srd for Bards shows under spells known lvl 1 a - meaning they know 0 level 1 spells.
they know 4 Cantrips and can cast 2 of them per day, with high Cha granting them more slots to cast their 4 known spells (All 0 levels)

But I meant they know 0 level 1 spells.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

[Draz74]

Yeah ... Bards suck at Level 1, except for their skills. They have to rely on those; cantrips and a single Music use per day aren't going to get you far.

But they improve very quickly.

[GnomeGninjas]

And even if restricted to core, Bard is overshadowed only by the Druid, Cleric, Wizard and Sorcerer.

In my experience core only bards are overshadowed by fighters. This may be because I mostly play lowish level games, because these games are very combat heavy, or because I am terrible at playing a bards but I have never played a core bard that doesn't suck and I have played fighters that are surprisingly competent.

[Red Fel]

In my experience core only bards are overshadowed by fighters. This may be because I mostly play lowish level games, because these games are very combat heavy, or because I am terrible at playing a bards but I have never played a core bard that doesn't suck and I have played fighters that are surprisingly competent.

It really depends on your metric of quality.

If you look at pure, solo damage output, then yes, a lot of core-only classes can cause more hurt directly. Similarly, in terms of pure survival (AC and various other defenses), other classes have an advantage. Similarly, in terms of spells available, all of the Tier 1 classes utterly dominate, no questions asked.

It's not that the core-only Bard does better than these classes in any one thing. It's that the Bard does many things, and helps the other classes do them better. Further, when the Bard's options expand beyond core, his power expands dramatically. For example, the core of many great fear builds includes a Bard with the Inspire Awe ACF. And as mentioned, the Bard has exceptional utility spells, which - while they lack the explosive oomph of the Mailman or the reality-altering powers of Wish or Gate - can do an exceptional job of exerting near-total domination over the battlefield.

Bards have the potential to do many things, when used creatively. And that's the key. A Barbarian is pretty good out of the box; you know exactly what to do with him. Wind him up, point him at an enemy, and charge. A Bard, however, like other caster classes, requires a more comprehensive knowledge of your options. A Bard requires savvy to play. Unlike other caster classes, however, a Bard's utility extends beyond merely optimizing his casting; a Wizard, for instance, doesn't need to worry about optimizing Inspire Courage, or developing a build focused around applying fear to fear-immune targets, or combining Perform checks with spellcasting. Bard builds are vastly divergent as a result. And while a caster build such as the Mailman is complex to set up but straightforward in execution, a Bard requires both planning to design and savvy to operate at all times, in order to make best use of the options available to you. Many players aren't experienced enough to do one or both, and as a result you may encounter less-impressive Bard builds or executions.

But don't let that fool you. While they aren't as gamebreaking as Tier 1s, a Bard played to the hilt is surprisingly devastating, both on and off the battlefield.

[Socratov]

In my experience core only bards are overshadowed by fighters. This may be because I mostly play lowish level games, because these games are very combat heavy, or because I am terrible at playing a bards but I have never played a core bard that doesn't suck and I have played fighters that are surprisingly competent.

if the fighter is outdoing the bard in a party at each and every moment something has gone wrong. Speaking of low level, what class flashy stuff at low level?Barbarians are the only class that rock at lvl one (RAAAAGE! *WHACK*). For the rest: skills are where it's at at low lvl. Quickly, as you build on, you get awesomer and awesomer... (and you make your party awesomer at the same time as well).

[eggynack]

It's not that the core-only Bard does better than these classes in any one thing.
Actually, the core-only bard does do better than those classes in one thing, and that thing is magic. They get reasonably speedy casting off of a pretty amazing list, and to some extent, I think that the impression of them as a non-master of castery is derived more from the existence of serious casters than from their actual poor quality in the field. I'm pretty sure that, even without any other class features, the bard would reign supreme over that entire list of classes. It's a hypothesis that is borne out by the tier 4 nature of the adept, which is a class that reads a lot like a worse version of the bard.

The fact is, your list of stuff that can let an optimized bard exceed the power level of a non-optimized bard is mostly not-core (if not all not-core). The fortunate thing is that that doesn't matter too much, because the bard is amazing out of the box if you make a few good choices. You toss some grease, alter self, and glibness on your spell list, some diplomacy, maybe UMD, and whatever else you want on your skill list, and there ya go. Beyond that point, I'm pretty sure that the bard optimization floor is rather close to its ceiling, even if they might be really far apart when you add more books.

[Chronos]

Others have already mentioned that the bard is a decent jack-of-all-trades. But they also have something that they're the absolute best at, whether you're looking at core-only or all books: They're the absolute best at social interactions. They've got all of the social skills on their list (including Speak Language, which hardly anyone gets), they've got other abilities that synergize with high Charisma, they've got most of the good social spells, including a few that almost no one else gets like Glibness, and you can work in their bardic music, too (Fascinate someone using Perform: Oratory, then use Diplomacy while you've got them fascinated, for instance). Yeah, a dedicated face might want to dip a level in a couple of other classes like Marshal or Binder, but they'll be coming back to Bard.

Personally, I think that the Bard is an excellent choice in a party of any size other than 4. If you've got a smaller party, then the versatility is great, as it lets you (approximately) fill multiple party roles. If you've got a larger party, then their buffing and support gets multiplied accordingly. But if you have exactly four characters, then the bard is going to end up being pigeonholed into replacing one of the "standard four", and is going to feel inferior because of it. For example: If your party is a rogue, cleric, fighter, and bard, then the bard is going to be the "guy in the dress" who provides all of the arcane magic, and he's worse at that than the wizard. If your party is a rogue, cleric, wizard, and bard, then he's going to be the "front-liner", and he's worse at that than the barbarian or fighter, and so on.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Thank you all for the responses. You've dissolved my ill opinion of bards. I'm currently looking at one to be the knowledge/diplo monkey. Still not sure how someone would get +14d6 on d-fire inspiration. Unless you're using multiple songs of it at once. Or x3 with two prestige classes.

Though 14 is not a multiple of 3

[Story]

Still not sure how someone would get +14d6 on d-fire inspiration. Unless you're using multiple songs of it at once.

As mentioned, Words of Creation doubles the bonus.

[nyjastul69]

As mentioned, Words of Creation doubles the bonus.

How does the bonus get to +7? +4 for lvl 20, +1 for IB, +1 for SotH, double that with Words of Creation. End your turn and then spend an immediate action on a Badge of Valor to add +1 for a +13 total. It seems the +14 is somehow doubling the BoV but I can't see how. What am I missing?

[sleepyphoenixx]

How does the bonus get to +7? +4 for lvl 20, +1 for IB, +1 for SotH, double that with Words of Creation. End your turn and then spend an immediate action on a Badge of Valor to add +1 for a +13 total. It seems the +14 is somehow doubling the BoV but I can't see how. What am I missing?

Vest of Legends and a masterwork lute get you +6 levels for bardic music, adding another +1.

[nyjastul69]

Vest of Legends and a masterwork lute get you +6 levels for bardic music, adding another +1.

Okay then. I knew about the VoL, but I didn't realize a MW lute also increased effective level by one. So, VoL and MW lute get you to +5, +1 for SotH, +1 for IB, total of +7 doubled for WoC. That's a total of +14. We can then use BoV as an immediate action and add +1 more for a total of +15, correct?

[Zalphon]

The Dragonfire Inspiration makes you party extraordinarily powerful. However, another option for you is:

Bard 1/Druid 2/Rogue 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

6th Level Bard Spellcasting (3rd Level Spells)
17th Level Druid Spellcasting (9th Level Spells)
10th Level Sublime Chord Spellcasting (9th Level Spells)

14 BAB
10 FORT
9 REF
15 WILL

Use the following:

Harmonizing Short (Long possibly) Sword +5 (Weapon)
Fearsome Mithral Breast Plate +5 (Armor)
Dove's Harp (Instrument)

Bardic Knack (ACF)
Draconic Heritage (Feat - Go for a dragon with Force or Sonic Damage for Dragonfire Inspiration)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Feat)
Snowflake Wardance (Feat)
Melodic Casting (Feat)
Words of Creation (Feat)
Doomspeak (Feat)

[Pluto!]

The Dragonfire Inspiration makes you party extraordinarily powerful. However, another option for you is:
2 questions your build raises:
-How are you qualifying for Sublime Chord with 6 levels of bard casting?
-How are you qualifying for Draconic Heritage with 0 Sorcerer levels?

[Zalphon]

3rd Level Spellcasting from Bard makes me qualify.

And you are absolutely right in regards to Draconic Heritage. I forgot I couldn't get around that with Sublime Chord. Oh well.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Dragonfire Inspiration makes you party extraordinarily powerful. However, another option for you is:

Bard 1/Druid 2/Rogue 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9


You're missing one level of arcane spellcasting for SC and you need Dragontouched to qualify for Draconic Heritage.
Dragonfire Inspiration does not work with force damage. The eligible energy types are named in the feat.
A short sword doesn't work with Snowflake Wardance because it's not a slashing weapon.
You also have only 16 levels of druid casting.

Snowflake Wardance can be traded for Dragontouched no problem. You can boost your AB with normal Inspire Courage since you can decide when you sing wether you want DFI or normal IC and they stack.
You'll have to sacrifice some casting ability to make the build work or invest feats to take Spelldancer to progress casting over the levels it takes to get Evasion.

[Pluto!]

3rd Level Spellcasting from Bard makes me qualify.

And you are absolutely right in regards to Draconic Heritage. I forgot I couldn't get around that with Sublime Chord. Oh well.
Are you using a trick? Level 3 spells come at bard level 7.

You could definitely take care of either or both problem with some small-scale fiddling (eg. picking up Evasion with Impulse Boots+Open Chakra to use the extra levels for ), but those adjustments snowball into some larger-scale decisions for the build that might turn into more significant retooling (Impulse Boots+Open Chakra means opening two feats, which could mean fiddling with racial choices, or dropping existing feats, altering class routes...)

[Socratov]

How to get a whole lot of Inspire Courage/DFI:

lvl 20: IC 4
Vest of Legends: doesn't really help here since lvl 26 is the next inspire courage bump
Masterwork Horn: increases the Accuracy bonus of IC by 1, loses fear resistance
Song of the Heart (eberron song for feat ACF): IC +1
Inspiration boost (SpC)/Badge of Valour(MIC) (activated in that order, costing your next turn's swift action): +1 and +1 IC
Words of Creation: current total * 2
So: (4+1+1+1+1)*2= 16 bonus to to-hit, (4+1+1+1)*2=14 bonus to damage
or
since DFI is keyed off the to-hit bonus of IC where 1 bonus to to-hit equals 1d6 of fire damage (unless you have a different and clear parentage with a breath weapon of one of the main 5 elemental damage types [fire, cold, acid, sonic, electric])

which equals 16d6 fire damage on each hit. No imagine 2 lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians. A crater sounds like an apt description of the aftermath.

Now if you take levels in classes that don't advance bard, you can buy a Vest of legends, and/or take the feat Chaos Music. the former makes you appear 5 levels higher for bardic music purposes, the latter 4 levels higher for bardic music purposes, capped by your total hitdice (i.e. bard 9/virtuoso 1/ with Vest of legends and chaos music counts as bard 15 for the purpose of bardic music and a bard 9/fighter 6 with vest of legends and chaos music counts as a lvl 18 bard for bardic music purposes).

Hope that clears it up.

Please note, I interpret that if you have used your swift action for Inspirational Boost (spell, swift action) and then use your badge of valour (immediate action for next turn's swift action) that it's possible. This may not be entirely legal but it can be interpreted that way in the SRD. Incredibly cheesy though to abuse action rules like that though... else you're stuck with only a measly 14d6 bonus damage for every ally within hearing distance... Sheesh...

[Zalphon]

Are you using a trick? Level 3 spells come at bard level 7.

You could definitely take care of either or both problem with some small-scale fiddling (eg. picking up Evasion with Impulse Boots+Open Chakra to use the extra levels for ), but those adjustments snowball into some larger-scale decisions for the build that might turn into more significant retooling (Impulse Boots+Open Chakra means opening two feats, which could mean fiddling with racial choices, or dropping existing feats, altering class routes...)

Likely drop the Rogue then for a level of Druid and a level of Bard. And take two flaws.

[Pluto!]

Personally, when I build melee bards, I usually forgo Inspirational Boost in order to use Song of the White Raven and to get that extra early round of attacks in. In D&D's haymaker-centric combat system, disabling an enemy a round early is usually worth having a slightly smaller pile of DFI dice to gloat over. Of course that changes if the party has multiple weapon attackers beside the bard, but it can be something to keep in mind - especially in smaller groups.

[Talya]

Not to knock Sublime Chord (as it's a great class), but you miss out on a lot of what Bard offers by multiclassing, at all. With Splatbook support, a single-classed bard is absolutely the most versatile and powerful Tier 3 in the game by a wide margin, all the way from 1-20.

My ideal bard build if single classed:


Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Melodic Casting, Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)




Now, about multiclassing:

There is no doubt that Sublime Chord is a powerful PrC, and straight up improves the bard. But it isn't without sacrifice. Sublime Chord (if you don't go the virtuoso route) costs you bardic music progression, it lowers your hit die, it hurts your BAB, and your skills. It DOES potentially stack Bardic Knack, which is why I consider a bard/sublime chord build better than bard/sublime chord/virtuoso. However, don't kid yourself - with SC, you are sacrificing versatility for power. You are a sorcerer with a bardy coating. So the question is - What do you want to play, a bard or a sorcerer? There's no wrong answer here, but that IS the choice you're making with Sublime Chord.

Virtuoso may seem almost like cheating - here's how you can advance sublime chord spellcasting without sacrificing much in terms of other bardly fun, but the kicker here is it doesn't advance Bardic Knowledge, which also means it cannot be argued to stack with the Bardic Knack ACF.

Any multiclassing at all also cuts into the effectiveness of the Crystal Echoblade.

Alternate multiclassing options that I really enjoy include the Bardadin or the Bardblade builds, but those are not all that bardic at all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Personally, when I build melee bards, I usually forgo Inspirational Boost in order to use Song of the White Raven and to get that extra early round of attacks in. In D&D's haymaker-centric combat system, disabling an enemy a round early is usually worth having a slightly smaller pile of DFI dice to gloat over. Of course that changes if the party has multiple weapon attackers beside the bard, but it can be something to keep in mind - especially in smaller groups.

If the party melee actually optimizes for DFI (high number of attacks) there's really no point squeezing out every last bit of bonus dice. There aren't many published monsters that can stand up to two or more hasted TWFers with 10d6+ bonus damage per attack. Anything that can is probably immune to the bonus damage so more dice won't make a difference.

[Ansem]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

[nyjastul69]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

O.o You can hold this opinion, but it doesn't really hold up well to a serious scrutiny. Bards are a very effective 20 level class. As said before, in core, the only classes superior to it are Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric.

[eggynack]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.
That doesn't really seem accurate at all, given all of the arguments made to the contrary by everyone in this thread. Seriously, it's a class that gets silent image, alter self, glibness, dimension door, shadow conjuration (seems more sweet on a bard, actually), (greater) dispel magic, shadow evocation, project image, and irresistible dance, to give a quick smattering from every level of play. Against full casters, they are certainly not up to that power level without some real pushing, but against just about anything else, that list alone will make them highly competitive. Then you get all of the other amazing class features, and you arrive at a class that likely stands right at the pinnacle of tier 3.

[ericgrau]

Well what the OP is saying does indeed happen often among rookies or even veterans who don't learn better. Often they become the jack of all trades but master of none, and suck at everything because you can only do one thing per round. What you need to do instead is pick the low level stuff that's just as good as the high level stuff and do that every turn. Plus max out your between combat stuff which has no limit on the number of turns you can use.

There are low level spells that continue to work well into high level, such as glitterdust, haste and illusions. You can skillmonkey too between fights. You can sometimes dip for even more skill access if you want, though you'll lose a caster level. During a buff round you might sing, but not at other times unless you use a trick to make it faster than a standard action. And you might want to haste in the buff round instead. There's also UMD plus bard scrolls and wands too for even more between combat utility. You have a good caster level for crafting though spell availability is difficult without resorting to wands or scrolls. And there are certain things any class can do, such as tripping if you focused strength. With free whip proficiency you can do it from the safety of reach.

And ya there is a lot of splatbook stuff to make your songs both crazy strong and a swift action to activate. So you aren't forced to choose between singing and casting. Each one by itself isn't super crazy, but you can stack 5 of them at once. And then it is.

[Socratov]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

excuse my disbelief, but did you actually read the posts made in this thread? sure it doesn't measure up to the full casters who are not just strong by lategame, but just shy of being gods. Sure the Bard doesn't have as many or as serious game breaking features as full casters, but if you want to break a campaign right open without invalidating about 2/3rds of available classes, a bard does help.

[Ansem]

excuse my disbelief, but did you actually read the posts made in this thread? sure it doesn't measure up to the full casters who are not just strong by lategame, but just shy of being gods. Sure the Bard doesn't have as many or as serious game breaking features as full casters, but if you want to break a campaign right open without invalidating about 2/3rds of available classes, a bard does help.
Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

[Socratov]

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

so, even though we have given evidence of the Bard's excellence we must take your word for it that it basically sucks?

[eggynack]

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.
Pretty sure you're just wrong on this one. Perhaps if you tried to refute any of the massive number of points levied against your position, there would be reason to doubt the forum's claims towards bard awesomeness, but you haven't, and there isn't.

[Xerlith]

Pretty sure you're just wrong on this one. Perhaps if you tried to refute any of the massive number of points levied against your position, there would be reason to doubt the forum's claims towards bard awesomeness, but you haven't, and there isn't.

Well, he might be right, if this table of veterans happens to be the table Tippy's group sits around.

[eggynack]

Well, he might be right, if this table of veterans happens to be the table Tippy's group sits around.
I think bards actually have a pretty reasonable ceiling, especially when you factor in sublime chord shenanigans. Those probably aren't a thing that should factor into standard assessment, but when you push the optimization level that high, it feels like a fair maneuver to me.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, he might be right, if this table of veterans happens to be the table Tippy's group sits around.

On the other hand there's 20+ year veterans around that still think that Weapon Focus is the best fighter feat ever, clerics are for healing and wizards should be blasters.
The statement is entirely subjective.

[Xerlith]

On the other hand there's 20+ year veterans around that still think that Weapon Focus is the best fighter feat ever, clerics are for healing and wizards should be blasters.
The statement is entirely subjective.

That's exactly what I meant though - if they are not optimizing like mad, and as you said - not all veterans do - the Bard should be perfectly able to hold his own.

[dextercorvia]

That's exactly what I meant though - if they are not optimizing like mad, and as you said - not all veterans do - the Bard should be perfectly able to hold his own.

But without some optimization, Bard can be really bad. If you try to onehand a weapon in the frontline, and ignore you good BFC spells, you are missing out.

[Anlashok]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

In what scenario?

A 4 man wizard-cleric-druid-bard group? Yeah, the bard can't keep but... but there's only a couple classes in the game that could in the first place and the bard would still be far more useful than most anything else outside that select few.

Hell, you have it exactly backwards too. The bard is the worst at extremely low levels when you have very few spells, very few songs and not enough skillpoints or WbL to mindrape people with diplomacy or abuse UMD.


But without some optimization, Bard can be really bad.
That might explain ansem. At a low level of play with little proper spell use I imagine the bard can't hold a candle to their fireball wizards or monks (which are obviously broken as ****).

[Deophaun]

How does the bonus get to +7? +4 for lvl 20, +1 for IB, +1 for SotH, double that with Words of Creation. End your turn and then spend an immediate action on a Badge of Valor to add +1 for a +13 total. It seems the +14 is somehow doubling the BoV but I can't see how. What am I missing?
Technically, there's no instructions on when you need to apply WoC. You could, theoretically, start your bardic music normally, and then, three rounds later when a big bad shows up in the middle of a routine fight, kick your bardic music into Exalted gear by incorporating the WoC. So yeah, you could get up to +14 with IB and BoV.

[Talya]

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

That's actually the opposite of the truth.

In the hands of a newbie, the bard can seem poor. You don't solve anything through direct force using a bard.

In the hands of a moderately skilled player, the bard will far outpace every tier 4-6 class on its way up to 20, single-classed.

In the hands of a master, it will far outpace every other tier 3 class as well.

Making a bard highly effective requires -- if not a fair bit of optimization talent, at least some research. But "Not scales well?" There's no level you can pick where a single classed bard can't be better than every other class that isn't Tier 1 or Tier 2...and truthfully, they'd still be useful in an all tier 1-2 party.

[Vaz]

Any noteworthy examples?

I can build a Bard to cause all allies within a 314.5 square mile area to deal +17d6 Sonic Damage.

Social Stuff can win campaigns. With a single feat and spell combination, it can get effectively +40 to a bluff check to tell a lie, and with a stndard action and moderate synergy optimizing turn allies into fanatical, mind controlled enemies. And with Charm spells, everyone is an ally. Who 'needs' ultrahigh DC's on SoD's, when everything you've ever met would throw themselves into the mouth of a dragon to clog it up to prevent it from breathing on you?

Spell list increasing is still a thing.

[SiuiS]

I don't get it... So few spells. Slow progression.

Quality over quantity.

Bards also benefit from the added bonus of not being broken, which means most DMs will let you play one; entire campaigns have elapsed which preclude anything higher than tier 3 at it's base. They also have "DM gives me hints" as a class feature and while their main ability can bolster them, it is also directly able to make everyone else in the party better too. I imagine that goes over really well in a cooperative game compared to the usual "Stand aside while I win this one" you get from most good classes.

Bard can do everything wizard can do, too. Not so much the other way around, though. That's gotta count for something, right?

[eggynack]

Quality over quantity.

Also quantity. Bards do get few spells per day, at a slow progression, and off of a generally worse list... compared to sorcerers. However, bards get a lot of spells per day, at a fast progression, and off of a generally better list than a solid chunk of classes, ranging from paladins to rangers to adepts, to say nothing of fighters and barbarians who get nothing at all. Thus, bards are worse than sorcerers, and better than rangers, and for the most part, it's as simple as that. There's a bunch of other factors, and the comparison gets a lot more complicated when you factor in classes that are closer in power level, like the beguiler (that's where you get more of a quality over quantity comparison), but it's a great start.

[Vaz]

Yeah good point. Not many classe have 'give me free XP during downtime' as a class feature. There is Gather Information skill and the Sapphire Hierarch, plus the other Bardic Knowledge variants like Cloistered Cleric.

You can compare a Bard to world rending power of a Psion in a world with Spell to Power Erudites and Wyrm Wizards, and it will not match up (until you Bluff them into lowering their Mind Blank and then Diplomance them into your pocket; at which point their power is your power). Or you can compare it to a Warblade (who hits harder, and harder, and harder...) or Warmage (who casts blastier nd blastier spells) or a Shugenja.

[Story]

Bard can do everything wizard can do, too. Not so much the other way around, though. That's gotta count for something, right?

Sorry, what? You sure you didn't get that backwards? (though even then it's still not accurate, as I don't think Wizards can quite emulate IC)

[Cloud]

Pretty sure that comment was along the lines of, they get a nice selection of spells so can do many tricks the Wizard can do, and then also gets Inspire Courage, so was meant how it was said.

Which sums up nicely why the Bard is the opposite of really bad, it's rather good.

[Talya]

When you think about it, a bard is a good way for a newer character to learn the really good wizard spells -- because they don't get the blasty spells wizards shouldn't be using. So a bard gets you in the habit of using the excellent spells that wizards SHOULD be using.

[nyjastul69]

Technically, there's no instructions on when you need to apply WoC. You could, theoretically, start your bardic music normally, and then, three rounds later when a big bad shows up in the middle of a routine fight, kick your bardic music into Exalted gear by incorporating the WoC. So yeah, you could get up to +14 with IB and BoV.

Okay, I see what your saying now. Although WoC shouldn't be allowed to be used outside of your own turn. But since WoC doesn't list an action cost I can see how some GM's might allow that. I dont , but my opinion is irrelevant as regards RAW. So with what I stated previously, and a fairly generous ruling ;), we're looking at +16 from IC?

[Vaz]

Be a warforged reforged for +17/18.

[gorfnab]

Bard 1/Druid 2/Rogue 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

Try this instead:
Bard 2/ Druid 3/ Green Whisperer 3/ Spelldancer 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ Fochlucan Lyrist 9
- 7 levels of Bard Casting (3rd level spells), 16 levels of Druid casting (8th level spells), and 10 levels of Sublime Chord casting (9th level spells)

[Socratov]

I can build a Bard to cause all allies within a 314.5 square mile area to deal +17d6 Sonic Damage.

Social Stuff can win campaigns. With a single feat and spell combination, it can get effectively +40 to a bluff check to tell a lie, and with a stndard action and moderate synergy optimizing turn allies into fanatical, mind controlled enemies. And with Charm spells, everyone is an ally. Who 'needs' ultrahigh DC's on SoD's, when everything you've ever met would throw themselves into the mouth of a dragon to clog it up to prevent it from breathing on you?

Spell list increasing is still a thing.

You know, I did this trick with a variation. Combat encounter: diplomance/bluff/intimidate (in that order). next combat encounter, same procedure. it meant that I 'solved' all of the combat encounters before they begun, in a gestalted lvl 6 setting. I totally broke the setting thanks to all the spells Bard has to boost social checks (didn't have glibness yet but there are other options). My party started to hate me btw. Sadly the campaign died quickly. funny thing, my colleagues were trying to pull any kind of combat trick but talking. it was glorious

[SliceandDiceKid]

How to get a whole lot of Inspire Courage/DFI:

lvl 20: IC 4
Vest of Legends: doesn't really help here since lvl 26 is the next inspire courage bump
Masterwork Horn: increases the Accuracy bonus of IC by 1, loses fear resistance
Song of the Heart (eberron song for feat ACF): IC +1
Inspiration boost (SpC)/Badge of Valour(MIC) (activated in that order, costing your next turn's swift action): +1 and +1 IC
Words of Creation: current total * 2
So: (4+1+1+1+1)*2= 16 bonus to to-hit, (4+1+1+1)*2=14 bonus to damage
or
since DFI is keyed off the to-hit bonus of IC where 1 bonus to to-hit equals 1d6 of fire damage (unless you have a different and clear parentage with a breath weapon of one of the main 5 elemental damage types [fire, cold, acid, sonic, electric])

which equals 16d6 fire damage on each hit. No imagine 2 lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians. A crater sounds like an apt description of the aftermath.

Now if you take levels in classes that don't advance bard, you can buy a Vest of legends, and/or take the feat Chaos Music. the former makes you appear 5 levels higher for bardic music purposes, the latter 4 levels higher for bardic music purposes, capped by your total hitdice (i.e. bard 9/virtuoso 1/ with Vest of legends and chaos music counts as bard 15 for the purpose of bardic music and a bard 9/fighter 6 with vest of legends and chaos music counts as a lvl 18 bard for bardic music purposes).

Hope that clears it up.

Please note, I interpret that if you have used your swift action for Inspirational Boost (spell, swift action) and then use your badge of valour (immediate action for next turn's swift action) that it's possible. This may not be entirely legal but it can be interpreted that way in the SRD. Incredibly cheesy though to abuse action rules like that though... else you're stuck with only a measly 14d6 bonus damage for every ally within hearing distance... Sheesh...

Thank you for the first ACTUAL step by step explanation. The previous condescending remarks and vague links didnt add up. This is crazy.

[dextercorvia]

Also, they aren't mutually exclusive. So, you can start with DFI one round, then let that song go, and start a regular inspire courage the next. So, in round two all you allies get +14 attack, and +14d6+14 damage. If you have enough party members that double damage, you want to do IC first, since the static boost gets doubled.

[Taffimai]

Thank you for the first ACTUAL step by step explanation. The previous condescending remarks and vague links didnt add up. This is crazy.

It is also highly questionable. Words of Creation specifies that it sets IC to +2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level and +8 at 20th level. Doubling it after you apply other buffs and feats to it means you stopped reading halfway through the sentence. You also take 3d4 nonlethal damage every time you do it.

[dextercorvia]

It is also highly questionable. Words of Creation specifies that it sets IC to +2 at 1st level, +4 at 8th level, +6 at 14th level and +8 at 20th level. Doubling it after you apply other buffs and feats to it means you stopped reading halfway through the sentence. You also take 3d4 nonlethal damage every time you do it.

Examples are not rules text. That is how it would work for an ordinary Bard -- the only kind when BoED was published.

Belt of Healing.

[Togo]

Just a brief shout-out to the harmonise line of spells, from Races of Stone.

A higher level bard should definitely consider greater harmonise, which allows you to start bardsong as a move action. Combine with the large number of swift-action spells, feats and magic items, and a bard can comfortably manage three actions a round, spell, bardsong, and swift action. Or get one of the p-classes that lets you do two bardsongs as a single action, and spam out four bardsongs in the first round.

[dextercorvia]

But, Harmonize costs a Standard action, so it forces you to basically stand still for the first two rounds of combat, except during the 2nd round you get a Standard action.

Round 1
Std: IC
Swift: Insp Boost
Move: ??

Round 2
Std: DFI
Swift Insp. Boost
Move: ??

vs.

Round 1
Std: Harmonize
Move: IC
Swift:Insp. Boost

Round 2
Move: DFI
Swift: Insp. Boost
Standard: ??

Now, if you can have it Persisted for free, via Spelldancer, or something, then Harmonize is worth it.

[SliceandDiceKid]

[QUOTE=Talya;17300009]My ideal bard build if single classed:

How do you account for draconic heritage without 1st level sorcerer?

[dextercorvia]

[QUOTE=Talya;17300009]My ideal bard build if single classed:

How do you account for draconic heritage without 1st level sorcerer?

Dragontouched feat.

[Bloodgruve]

Bards, IMHO, are just such a great class to apply different builds to. They're great Gish's or can be built to cast 9th level spells or both.. Its much more interesting to me then Wizard or Cleric or Druid even if its not as versatile. You could even Dual Wield electric scorpion whips (PF) if you wanted to be that guy.

Plus, who wouldn't follow a full ranked Beat Boxing bard into battle? Defeat your enemies using Mosh Pit tactics.

Every campaign I get to play in Bard is my first choice, unfortunately it's also the choice of other players whom I concede to and end up playing a different class :/

Blood~

[eggynack]

Dragontouched feat.
If I'm not mistaken, silverbrow human also works.

[SliceandDiceKid]

If I'm not mistaken, silverbrow human also works.

From everything I've googled this morning I think it just assigns you cold as a silverbrow. It wouldn't conceptually be worth two feats to me to change that to sonic.

[dextercorvia]

If I'm not mistaken, silverbrow human also works.

Dragontouched has two benefits. The first is that you get the dragonblood subtype (which silverbrow also does). The second is that you qualfiy for Draconic Feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level -- this is the only way to get that, short of being a sorcerer.


From everything I've googled this morning I think it just assigns you cold as a silverbrow. It wouldn't conceptually be worth two feats to me to change that to sonic.

Silverbrow has you descended from silver dragons, but it doesn't change your damage type. The only things that do that are Half Dragon, Draconic Heritage, and a level of Dragon Shaman.

Ironically, an actual Silver Dragon Bard would still get Fire for his energy type if he took DFI.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Dragontouched has two benefits. The first is that you get the dragonblood subtype (which silverbrow also does). The second is that you qualfiy for Draconic Feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level -- this is the only way to get that, short of being a sorcerer.



Silverbrow has you descended from silver dragons, but it doesn't change your damage type. The only things that do that are Half Dragon, Draconic Heritage, and a level of Dragon Shaman.

Ironically, an actual Silver Dragon Bard would still get Fire for his energy type if he took DFI.

Ugh... You're right. That's the worst...

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

[dextercorvia]

Ugh... You're right. That's the worst...

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

Possibly. In an average Campaign you will IC or DFI in each combat. So, if fire won't work, just switch back to standard IC. In a High OP T3 campaign, yeah, go for it. Although, I tend to prefer the one level Dragon Shaman dip unless I am optimizing for casting.

[Togo]

But, Harmonize costs a Standard action,...

Which is why I said the harmonise line, and higher level bards. Greater Harmonise is worth it, Harmonise, only for particular builds, such when you have cheap persist effects, and so on.

[Socratov]

Ugh... You're right. That's the worst...

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?

the higher level you are, the more awesome feats open up. Early level in comparison is not so great in feat choices, setting you stuck between Lingering Song and Extra music

by the way, Silverbrow human works for DFI as qualification.


As a hint to what you need to do when you pick your dragon heritage (using the dragon touched feat line): pyroclastic dragon: it does both sonic and fire, so you can pick either for them at the moment of performing.

[Terazul]

From everything I've googled this morning I think it just assigns you cold as a silverbrow. It wouldn't conceptually be worth two feats to me to change that to sonic.

That's why you don't. You instead, after being a Silverbrow Human or other Dragonblood race, seek to undergo the Rite of Draconic Affinity. 24 hours and 5,000 gp later, you can change your ancestral heritage to a different dragon type of your choice, gaining all the benefits and drawbacks thereof.

[Deophaun]

But is it really worth 2 feats to change the damage type? I know a lot of things are resistant/immune to fire. But two feats?
Considering that you can get Sonic/Fire with a Pyroclastic Heritage, yes, it is.

[Shining Wrath]

Bards are really good at making everyone else better. We had a 6 member party where per DM fiat we fought ourselves, and we went after the enemy bard second.

Before the artificer. Before the Scout. Before the Cleric / Crusader / Fist of Raziel.

After the druid. No, we didn't want to find out what she could summon given time.

Last man standing? The Warblade. Not so much that he wasn't dangerous, it was that he had almost 2x HP of anyone else and took a lot of killing. It was a pretty good scene - big guy with greatsword standing among the bodies of his friends, screaming defiance and selling his life dear.

Note: it was an in-game 'game' set up by a crazy artificer, and deaths / injuries were healed, and the opponents were really simulacra not real, because otherwise we'd have had to lynch our DM. Casualties were high.

[Ansem]

I can build a Bard to cause all allies within a 314.5 square mile area to deal +17d6 Sonic Damage.


Build please.

[Socratov]

Build please.
Ok, take my last post on optimising DFI, and take 2 feats (possible at lvl 1 with human without flaws), at high level (lvl 20, but earlier is very possible just less dice) you can cast Sonic Weapon on Everyone's weapon (1 minute per level, extendable using extra music and meta-magic song to persist it for everyone. then, to make sure everyone within miles can hear it, you get a masterwork alphorn (longer reach, still the extra accuracy bonus) with Amplify cast on it to make sure even the souls of the dead on another plane hear you and get the bonus if you think they are friendly. So, first off: stick that in your pipe and smoke it, second, please provide evidence how a well built bard sucks, because I'm strongly believing by now that your veteran group of DnD players wouldn't know how to build a decent bard if a shining example was dancing in front of them wearing nothing but a teacozy. (if you hadn't guessed by now I'm getting annoyed at your lack of proof on your statement that bards suck when this thread has proven time and time again that the bard in fact doesn't)

[SliceandDiceKid]

Ok, take my last post on optimising DFI, and take 2 feats (possible at lvl 1 with human without flaws), at high level (lvl 20, but earlier is very possible just less dice) you can cast Sonic Weapon on Everyone's weapon (1 minute per level, extendable using extra music and meta-magic song to persist it for everyone. then, to make sure everyone within miles can hear it, you get a masterwork alphorn (longer reach, still the extra accuracy bonus) with Amplify cast on it to make sure even the souls of the dead on another plane hear you and get the bonus if you think they are friendly. So, first off: stick that in your pipe and smoke it, second, please provide evidence how a well built bard sucks, because I'm strongly believing by now that your veteran group of DnD players wouldn't know how to build a decent bard if a shining example was dancing in front of them wearing nothing but a teacozy. (if you hadn't guessed by now I'm getting annoyed at your lack of proof on your statement that bards suck when this thread has proven time and time again that the bard in fact doesn't)

Bahaha I'm glad I asked about bards. Socratov, I always enjoy your input.

[Socratov]

Bahaha I'm glad I asked about bards. Socratov, I always enjoy your input.

Glad you like it. By the way if you employ such tricks (you know, turning your melee characters into giant eardrum and boneshredding blenders after deafening them with your alphorn) you might need to learn how to dodge books. Seriously. let's assume 2 lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians: 5 attacks per turn (pre haste, which you can cast by the way, just saying), 17d6 per attack sonic damage, that makes pre cleave, for some 170d6 bonus damage per round. Add haste that's an extra 32d6 damage per round. that averages out to 202*((1+6)/2)=707 sonic damage, per round. let's assume your precious barbs have cleave and went shocktrooper you're looking at wiping out gods due to HP damage. Loosely translated that makes anything a bloody smear on whatever surface you find yourself on. It really is too bad only the wizard has access to Summon: Deck Chair and Leomunds Finely Stocked Cocktail Bar (including bartender), beucase after that first round of 2 hasted whirling frenzied barbarians going to town nothing will be left standing and you will really love to have that Long Island Iced-Tea for that full round of hard work.

Edit: before people are going to ask: the deck chair and cocktail summon are a reference to the 15 minute workday in which a wizard is on the level of a minor deity in power, quite literally telling reality to sit down and shut up, letting summons do the work for them.

[Ansem]

I just asked for a build, no need to be a jerk all of the sudden....

[eggynack]

I just asked for a build, no need to be a jerk all of the sudden....
It's at least a little justified, given the lack of evidence on your side, along with your somewhat persistent claim that it is the correct one. If that is not still your stance, then you should probably say so, because argument inertia means that you're usually assumed to hold the same position until stated otherwise. Bards are cool, and also often unfairly maligned. Folks get a bit defensive where they're concerned as a result.

[Socratov]

It's at least a little justified, given the lack of evidence on your side, along with your somewhat persistent claim that it is the correct one. If that is not still your stance, then you should probably say so, because argument inertia means that you're usually assumed to hold the same position until stated otherwise. Bards are cool, and also often unfairly maligned. Folks get a bit defensive where they're concerned as a result.

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

[Urpriest]

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

Sure that should be a Leomund? Sounds more like a Mordenkainen.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

While you're at it,
A spell to place toes in the water, and your ass in the sand?

Before a mod flags me for language, I'm referring to a beast of burden.

[Socratov]

Sure that should be a Leomund? Sounds more like a Mordenkainen.
well, I pegged leomund to be the real estate guy... (Leomund's tiny hut and all that), though Mordekainen could have been high level enough to be bored out of his skull enough to research the spell. Also, I think the martini's tastiness should be linked to the number of casterlevels.

While you're at it,
A spell to place toes in the water, and your ass in the sand?

Before a mod flags me for language, I'm referring to a beast of burden.

I gather it's a song of some sort? I could homebrew a bard spell which creates the perfect background music for the situation...

You know what, I'll be starting a new thread on homebrewing the complete bar and hotel resort.

[Shining Wrath]

Thank you.

Also, please remind me that I totally need to make the following spells:

Summon Deckchair

and

Leomund's Fully Stocked Bar

I want to save those away for later times...

Oh and they should totally be 1st level spells, cantrips for a bard...

WRONG.

A bard charms the nearest wizard into summoning those things for him. After first self-buffing with Inspire Competence et cetera.

[Socratov]

WRONG.

A bard charms the nearest wizard into summoning those things for him. After first self-buffing with Inspire Competence et cetera.

well, anyway, Homebrew thread is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342096-Homebrewing-the-bar-with-Socratov)

[Ansem]

It's at least a little justified, given the lack of evidence on your side, along with your somewhat persistent claim that it is the correct one. If that is not still your stance, then you should probably say so, because argument inertia means that you're usually assumed to hold the same position until stated otherwise. Bards are cool, and also often unfairly maligned. Folks get a bit defensive where they're concerned as a result.
I'm still on the same boat, just glad people can make an use of the Bard.
My problem with that specific case is:
1. Why the hell isn't it energy mixtured for automatic slow/sicken (well worth the extra damage)
2: way too much symbolic value on the range of the buff when he's basically never going to be in a situation to actually make use of it
3: wizard/cleric have plenty of spells to add energy damage to weapons, and unlike bardsong they can be meta'd so a bit redundant
4: It's not terrible, but it's your entire build for one buff....
And still of the opinion it's sad to call names.

[Shining Wrath]

well, anyway, Homebrew thread is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342096-Homebrewing-the-bar-with-Socratov)

Typo in title. Or else you mean something different by "homebrewing" :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

1. Why the hell isn't it energy mixtured for automatic slow/sicken (well worth the extra damage)
I'm not really sure what you mean here. Also, if this is a plausible thing, then huzzah, more power for bards.

2: way too much symbolic value on the range of the buff when he's basically never going to be in a situation to actually make use of it
It's a helpful thing for army scenarios, which are valid scenarios. As is though, this argument is mostly that there's too much awesome here, and you don't need that much. In other words, not a valid argument against bardic power.

3: wizard/cleric have plenty of spells to add energy damage to weapons, and unlike bardsong they can be meta'd so a bit redundant
First, what wizard or cleric spell adds that much damage to that many targets, or even that much damage to a smaller number of targets? We're talking about something close to a mass venomfire effect here. Second, why does it matter? Bards aren't wizards, and they can't be wizards. They're tier 3, and that makes the valid comparison between them and warblades, factotums, and beguilers.

4: It's not terrible, but it's your entire build for one buff....
Not really. If you took away all of that inspire courage stuff, like just all of it, you'd still be a tier 3 class, on the basis of skills and spells.


And still of the opinion it's sad to call names.
Given that the "name" was basically "Making a claim without any evidence," it seems like a valid thing, given that you're still ignoring a whole pile of arguments, and claiming bardic suckitude regardless.

[Urpriest]

I'm still on the same boat, just glad people can make an use of the Bard.
My problem with that specific case is:
1. Why the hell isn't it energy mixtured for automatic slow/sicken (well worth the extra damage)

You...should probably look up the feat Energy Admixture before you keep posting. It's in Complete Arcane.

[nyjastul69]

well, I pegged leomund to be the real estate guy... (Leomund's tiny hut and all that), though Mordekainen could have been high level enough to be bored out of his skull enough to research the spell. Also, I think the martini's tastiness should be linked to the number of casterlevels.


I gather it's a song of some sort? I could homebrew a bard spell which creates the perfect background music for the situation...

You know what, I'll be starting a new thread on homebrewing the complete bar and hotel resort.

It might sound something like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9h2m06sFQ

My favorite beach song ever.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Don't you have access to all the songs in the PHB? Or in my skimming did I overlook something about having to pick some at specific levels?

[Socratov]

Don't you have access to all the songs in the PHB? Or in my skimming did I overlook something about having to pick some at specific levels?

Yes, but in some situations it's better to trade some songs away you are only going to use situationally for ACF's that will help you a lot more. these ACF's are found all over the place (bard is one of the best supported classes in all of DnD). Notable ones are Bardic Knack (PHBII), Healing Hymn (CDiv) and trading bardic music for feats (Eberron Campaign Setting).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Yes, but in some situations it's better to trade some songs away you are only going to use situationally for ACF's that will help you a lot more. these ACF's are found all over the place (bard is one of the best supported classes in all of DnD). Notable ones are Bardic Knack (PHBII), Healing Hymn (CDiv) and trading bardic music for feats (Eberron Campaign Setting).

Ok cool. I saw the tiny section in the eberron c setting and it led me to believe that.

I assume in actual gameplay, fascinate/suggest just isn't reasonable. Knack, song of growth, savage, and song of heart are really awesome. And yes the line from earlier is a Zach brown band song.

[Chronos]

I assume in actual gameplay, fascinate/suggest just isn't reasonable.
Depends on what you mean by "isn't reasonable". If you mean the part about them being negated by any overt threat, it's easy enough to coordinate that with your allies, so they wait to draw on the creature until after you've done your thing. If you mean that the save DCs are ludicrously high, well that's true, but that's just one more point of evidence of the strength of bards as written.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Depends on what you mean by "isn't reasonable". If you mean the part about them being negated by any overt threat, it's easy enough to coordinate that with your allies, so they wait to draw on the creature until after you've done your thing. If you mean that the save DCs are ludicrously high, well that's true, but that's just one more point of evidence of the strength of bards as written.

I mostly mean the fascinate/suggest
2 rounds in an action economy game.

Still just now giving the bard serious consideration. I suppose it could still be great for distractions... Non combat wise.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Oh my God

+10d6 at level 8?!
I just pieced together how early you get this for one spell, one 1400gp item, two feats, good alignment, and a masterwork horn (which I can't find a price for but assume from several posts 100gp/lb).

I now formally apologize for my awful blasphemous doubts.

Thank you for correcting my path.

[Talya]

I mostly mean the fascinate/suggest
2 rounds in an action economy game.

Still just now giving the bard serious consideration. I suppose it could still be great for distractions... Non combat wise.


Fascinate/suggestion can actually be very good, depending on the campaign. I still tend to trade them away. If I really want suggestion (and I do), I take it as a level 2 spell known.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Dragontouched has two benefits. The first is that you get the dragonblood subtype (which silverbrow also does). The second is that you qualfiy for Draconic Feats as if you were a sorcerer of your character level -- this is the only way to get that, short of being a sorcerer.



Silverbrow has you descended from silver dragons, but it doesn't change your damage type. The only things that do that are Half Dragon, Draconic Heritage, and a level of Dragon Shaman.

Ironically, an actual Silver Dragon Bard would still get Fire for his energy type if he took DFI.

Also thank you for your consistent, constructive input. May I ask how the level of dragon shaman allows you to alter the energy type?

And a source for this.
Thanks :)

[Deadline]

Also thank you for your consistent, constructive input. May I ask how the level of dragon shaman allows you to alter the energy type?

And a source for this.
Thanks :)

Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon is the source (I forget which). I know you get Dragontouched as a bonus first level feat from ... Dragonfire Adept? At any rate, Dragontouched grants you the dragonblooded subtype, and lets you qualify for feats as a sorcerer of your level. That means you can take the Draconic Heritage feat, which lets you pick a type of dragon to be your ancestor (which works with Dragonfire Inspiration). So, Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage = dragonblooded of a type of dragon of your choice.

[Shining Wrath]

Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon is the source (I forget which). I know you get Dragontouched as a bonus first level feat from ... Dragonfire Adept? At any rate, Dragontouched grants you the dragonblooded subtype, and lets you qualify for feats as a sorcerer of your level. That means you can take the Draconic Heritage feat, which lets you pick a type of dragon to be your ancestor (which works with Dragonfire Inspiration). So, Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage = dragonblooded of a type of dragon of your choice.

Both Dragonfire Adept and Dragonborn ritual grant Dragontouched, which gives you the dragonblooded subtype and also gives you some minor skill points, and 1 HP in addition to qualifying for sorcerer feats.

A Dragonborn Dragonfire Adept doesn't get the bonus feat twice - I don't think - since the feat doesn't mention that you can take it multiple times.

[Marnath]

Also thank you for your consistent, constructive input. May I ask how the level of dragon shaman allows you to alter the energy type?

And a source for this.
Thanks :)

Your energy matches your totem dragon instead of always being fire.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Your energy matches your totem dragon instead of always being fire.

I figured this was the connection. But how do you reach this conclusion RAW?

[dextercorvia]

I figured this was the connection. But how do you reach this conclusion RAW?

It's in the sidebar at the bottom of page 18 or Dragon Magic.


Whenever a dragon shaman selects a feat or other option whose effect depends on a character’s draconic heritage (from the Draconic Heritage feat), treat his totem dragon as his heritage selection.
For example, if a dragon shaman who has chosen silver dragon as his totem selects the Dragonfire Assault feat, the extra damage dealt by the feat would be cold damage, as appropriate for a character with Draconic Heritage (silver).

[SliceandDiceKid]

It's in the sidebar at the bottom of page 18 or Dragon Magic.

Ooooooh I thought you were saying I didn't need dragon heritage IF I went d shaman. Cool. Still a fun dip after lvl 6! :)

[dextercorvia]

Ooooooh I thought you were saying I didn't need dragon heritage IF I went d shaman. Cool. Still a fun dip after lvl 6! :)

You don't. If the effect depends on your heritage ( from the Draconic Heritage feat), treat your totem dragon as your Heritage selection.

It isn't saying that your DH heritage has to match your totem. It is saying any time a feat or ability checks for Hertiage from DH, use your totem dragon type instead.

The example makes it clear for that Dragon Shaman, that he is gets cold damage as if he had DH(silver).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Ah
Cool cool cool. You're the best!

[Chronos]

The action cost isn't usually relevant for Fascinate, given that you can't use it in combat anyway. But in the odd case that it is relevant, your first action to fascinate the target also takes away their action, so it works out to a net cost of one action anyway.

[SliceandDiceKid]

The action cost isn't usually relevant for Fascinate, given that you can't use it in combat anyway. But in the odd case that it is relevant, your first action to fascinate the target also takes away their action, so it works out to a net cost of one action anyway.

Cool. As I'm thinking about it, it seems like it could have it's uses.

Is there any precedence for using a pyroclastic dragon as your totem dragon?

I'm planning that silverbrow human bard/Dshaman/bard7/?

I'd definitely need to be able to argue pyroclastic dragon in. The dragon totem says it must be from monster manual. Is that only because there were fewer books at the time of publication? Or was this overruled by a later book?

[dextercorvia]

I'd definitely need to be able to argue pyroclastic dragon in. The dragon totem says it must be from monster manual. Is that only because there were fewer books at the time of publication? Or was this overruled by a later book?

RotD came first, so that is, unfortunately WotC's usual habit of having one splat ignore the others.

[SliceandDiceKid]

RotD came first, so that is, unfortunately WotC's usual habit of having one splat ignore the others.

Does anyone know where this came from?

http://www.mit.edu/~locutus/DnD/classes/TotemDragons.html

Looks legit

[dextercorvia]

Does anyone know where this came from?

http://www.mit.edu/~locutus/DnD/classes/TotemDragons.html

Looks legit

Unfortunately that is just someone's detailed homebrew. Getting a different Totem Dragon is the kind of thing you should be able to work out with your DM. Or, you can undergo the Rite of Draconic Affinity, as someone mentioned earlier.

[SliceandDiceKid]

Ok cool! Thanks a bunch! I'm eager to test this out. My friend is planning a dervish and I'm going to take a ranger follower at lvl 9 with leadership. Hehehe