Toughness Revised [Feats]

[The Orange Zergling]

Toughness [General]
You are hardier than usual.
Benefits: You gain a permanent bonus to your Hit Points equal to your highest Hit Die. (Example: d12 equals +12 Hit Points, d4 equals +4, etc. A multi-class fighter/wizard, for example, would get +10 Hit Points.)


Improved Toughness [General]
You are extremely tough.
Prerequisites: Toughness, Con +13
Benefits: You gain a permanent bonus to your Hit Points equal to 150% of your highest Hit Die. (Example: d12 equals +18 Hit Points, d4 equals +6, etc. A multi-class fighter/wizard, for example, would get +15 Hit Points.)



These are probably imbalanced, but I'd still like comments. Pwetty Pwease?

[MeklorIlavator]

Actually, it seems pretty decent

[magic8BALL]

What about multi-class characters? Is it the Hit DIe of the level you take it? The most Hit Die you have? The first Hit Die you got? Your mean Hit Die size?
(the 1st one makes more sence, but there are other interpritations.)

I prefere the current Improved Toughness...ish.

And your toughness... a level 1 human fighter with 40+con hp? (toughness 3 times)...cant do anything else, but can take the damage... or 50+con hp (toughness+2 improved toughness)

[The Orange Zergling]

What about multi-class characters? Is it the Hit DIe of the level you take it? The most Hit Die you have? The first Hit Die you got? Your mean Hit Die size?
(the 1st one makes more sence, but there are other interpritations.)

I prefere the current Improved Toughness...ish.

And your toughness... a level 1 human fighter with 40+con hp? (toughness 3 times)...cant do anything else, but can take the damage... or 50+con hp (toughness+2 improved toughness)

Uhh, I'll work on that first point. EDIT: teh fix'dz0rz.

And a fighter may not take these feats as his bonus feats, as they are not marked as "A fighter may select this feat as one of his bonus feats". Although, that's still 30+Con at first level...

But... I may have to impose a "May not be taken at first level" rule...

[Icewalker]

This seems a little bit overpowered, although I found the old toughness underpowered. Maybe you should just get to roll your HD, and still get your con bonus to the roll, as if you gained one level's worth of hp. Or maybe half a hit die, but then that would be underpowered for sorcerers and wizards and such.

With "May not be taken at first level" and not a fighter bonus feat, and with your three feat max each, maybe it is balanced. You could do a maximum of 4 toughness or improved toughness feats (1 tough 3 imp tough, etc), or maybe the first imp toughness takes 13 con, and the ones after that take an additional 2, 15 for the second, and 17 for the third.

[cferejohn]

With "May not be taken at first level" and not a fighter bonus feat, and with your three feat max each, maybe it is balanced. You could do a maximum of 4 toughness or improved toughness feats (1 tough 3 imp tough, etc), or maybe the first imp toughness takes 13 con, and the ones after that take an additional 2, 15 for the second, and 17 for the third.

I guess, but boy is that cludgey, and I'm not sure it makes sense in general for this to be so much better for high HD characters, I mean, tough is tough right? What's wrong with toughness being like 3 HP + 1 HP/2 levels (or maybe 3 levels?). It scales. It's conceivably more useful for spellcasters, but that was already true (and at least this way it's still somewhat useful as they go up in level rather than just keeping a Con 10 wizard/sorcerer alive until 3rd level).

[The Orange Zergling]

Removed the "May be taken multiple times" line.

[TheOOB]

These feats arn't overpowered, but they need a prerequisite so they can't be taken at really low levels. In the old 3.0 splat books they had a series of toughness feats that granted a progressivly higher hp bonus (up to 12 I think), but each one required a progressivly higher base fort save, thus making it so caster types can't get huge hp bonuses early on.

Right now the best toughness feat around is improved toughness, which works just like toughness did in NWN, it adds hp based on level which is nice and useful for every class.

[InaVegt]

The way I would do it

Toughness
When you take this feat for the first time you gain 4 hit points
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of hit points you gain increases by 2.

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell

[The Orange Zergling]

Toughness
When you take this feat for the first time you gain 4 hit points
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of hit points you gain increases by 2.

That seems decent, except that it's a lot like the old toughness, where you gain +3 Hit Points every time you take it. You'd need to blow a lot of feats on this version to get much benefit, unless you're a casting class.

[Neek]

If it's a matter of giving too much, then give less:

Toughness - Add 75% of HD to HP.
Improved Toughness - Add 100% of HD to HP.

Retarding it a little seems to accomplish a more of a balancing act. The feat overall benefits the figher classes more than the spellcasting ones, but it's a benefit nonetheless. (Speaking of benefiting the spellcasting classes, the best way to make sure you get enough HP to survive a battle is making your first level Barbarian. My gnome did it. ;))

[InaVegt]

That seems decent, except that it's a lot like the old toughness, where you gain +3 Hit Points every time you take it. You'd need to blow a lot of feats on this version to get much benefit, unless you're a casting class.

Yes, you need to blow a lot of feats on it to become effective, but let's just take our 1st level human fighter as an example (and use a constitution of 14): without toughness 12, with toughness once 16, with toughness twice 22. On third level we have: without toughness 28, with toughness once 32, with toughness twice 38, with toughness thrice 46. Then on 6th level we have: without toughness 50, with toughness 54, with toughness twice 60, with toughness thrice 68, with toughness four times 78.

Conclusion: yes, it is feat intensive, but it gives a huge benefit (28 hit points bonus on 50 is pretty high, and a fighter has the feats to blow. A wizard would benefit even more (same 14 con) from 28 till 56, that's doubling your HP, if you're really worried about this being underpowered you could make it a fighter bonus feat (that 6th level fighter woul have the feat 3+3+2 = 8 times, for a total increase in HP of 88 HPs and 138 HP total)

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, chapion of Hell

[The Orange Zergling]

(Speaking of benefiting the spellcasting classes, the best way to make sure you get enough HP to survive a battle is making your first level Barbarian. My gnome did it. ;))

Cheesetastic. :P



*snip*

Hmm, good point. I think it's *pretty much* balanced now, with the "May be taken multiple times" line gone.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'd say "You gain a permanent bonus to your Hit Points equal to your highest Hit Die. (Example: d12 equals +12 Hit Points, d4 equals +4, etc. A multi-class fighter/wizard, for example, would get +10 Hit Points.). This bonus can never be more than twice your current HD (and increases retroactively)" but that's too much like improved toughness.

I like the Incarnum version of toughness...

How about;

Toughness [General]
Prerequisite: Metagame Wisdom 12-
Benifit: You gain bonus hp arbitrarily assigned based on how much your DM likes you.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Every time you do you get a cumulative +10 bonus to Perform (clowning).

[Neek]

I prefer the Star Wars d20 version of Toughness (adding 3 Wound Points! w00!) Since we lack the WP/Vitality option for D&D...


Cheesetastic. :P

A BarbSor's a cheesey build. Not as a bad as a (Barb)PalaMonk build. If you play it right and your character is not quite right in the head either... then I think it works to some extent. :D

[magic8BALL]

Toughness
When you take this feat for the first time you gain 4 hit points
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat after the first time, the number of hit points you gain increases by 2.

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell


That seems decent, except that it's a lot like the old toughness, where you gain +3 Hit Points every time you take it. You'd need to blow a lot of feats on this version to get much benefit, unless you're a casting class.

Huh?

The old version is even more feat intensive than the one proposed by Gezina. The following table shows:

Times . (total bonus HP)
Taken . . Old . Gezina's
1 . . . . . +3 . . . +4
2 . . . . . +6 . . . +10
3 . . . . . +9 . . . +18
4 . . . . . +12. . .+28
5 . . . . . +15. . .+40
x . . . . . +3x. . .+[4+2(x-1)]

Gezina's vesion starts off better, and gets better the more times you take it. Exactly the boost toughness needed.

...now the Tyrannosaurus gets +18 hp from its three takings of the feat (not +9), and the Tarresque gets +54 instead of +18 from its six takings.

[The Orange Zergling]

Huh?

The old version is even more feat intensive than the one proposed by Gezina.


I never said it wasnt, just that Gezina's was more like the old one than I'd like. Toughness is widely regarded as a near-worthless feat, except for low level casters. And while Gezina's is more powerful than the old version, I'd like to have an HP-increasing feat that doesnt take a crapload of feats to be effective.

[magic8BALL]

Yeah... good point... something that is balanced at low levels, but still worth it at higher levels without spending a few (too many) feats... but if you have feats to spend (like monsters) you can, and it's still worth it.

How about:

Toughness [General]
You are tougher than normal.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain a bonus to your hit points equal to your Base Fortitude Save Bonus plus three.
Special: A fighter may take toughness as a fighter bonus feat.

Extra Toughness [General]
You are much tougher than normal.
Prerequisites: Toughness.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain 2 hit points.
Special: Every time you take this feat, you gain 2 more hit points than last time.
A fighter may take toughness as a fighter bonus feat.

[The Orange Zergling]

Yeah... good point... something that is balanced at low levels, but still worth it at higher levels without spending a few (too many) feats... but if you have feats to spend (like monsters) you can, and it's still worth it.

How about:

Toughness [General]
You are tougher than normal.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain a bonus to your hit points equal to your Base Fortitude Save Bonus plus three.
Special: A fighter may take toughness as a fighter bonus feat.

Extra Toughness [General]
You are much tougher than normal.
Prerequisites: Toughness.
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain 2 hit points.
Special: Every time you take this feat, you gain 2 more hit points than last time.
A fighter may take toughness as a fighter bonus feat.

The first one looks like a good alternative... not so sure about the second one, though.

[Leush]

You see, I think that "equal t your highest hitdice" is a bit much at first level. I remember that there was a toughness feat which gave 1 extra hitpoint per level- which is nice, since it doesn't overpower at first level, and scales with level. Magic Ball's original toughness is pretty sweet too.

"The extra toughness" is weak to the point of being rediculous since it's even weaker than the original Toughness feat

[magic8BALL]

You see, I think that "equal t your highest hitdice" is a bit much at first level. I remember that there was a toughness feat which gave 1 extra hitpoint per level- which is nice, since it doesn't overpower at first level, and scales with level. Magic Ball's original toughness is pretty sweet too.

"The extra toughness" is weak to the point of being rediculous since it's even weaker than the original Toughness feat

not really. Extra Tougness is only really for the monsters with more than 2 toughness feats already (T-Rex, Mr Tarresque, and so on). With two takings of Extra Toughness (and the 1st toughness), your are not only par with what you would normally be, your are ahead by your base fort save. (+11 hp for T-Rex). Mr T (with Toughness and 5xExtra Toughness) gets 38 more Hit Points. (26 base fort +3 +2 +(2+2) + (2+2+2) + (2+2+2+2) + (2+2+2+2+2) - (6x3)). Heaps more powerful than core toughness, wouldnt you agree?

[Leush]

Well yes, it is far more powerful- the "Toughness" at least. Although no one in their right mind would take the "extra toughness" because it's worse than the prerequisite. I can understand a monster who has no choice, but it becomes redundant for pcs. You said you wanted it to be rare, but that's taking it a bit too far.

The point is that with +26 base fortitude, you get 29 from the first feat, and then 10 from the next *five*. That is, the first feat gave three times more hitpoints than the next five- making the first feat fifteen times more powerful than the others and hence wonky. Now forgive me, but natural selection will *kill* t-rexes that took extra toughness five times instead of say, improved grab, a weapon size increase and three others. Besides if you want a monster really really tough, surely you'd give it stronger toughness feats...

Now I know that arguing about it is dumb, since it's a matter of opinion about how it's meant to work, however, from general trends (feats with prerequisites being more powerful than base feats), it's odd. Personally I'd probably go with something like extra toughness giving you extra hitpoints equal to your base fort save (without the +3), but then perhaps it's my inner munchkin, or perhaps I like all feats being more or less viable.

[InaVegt]

The point is that with +26 base fortitude, you get 29 from the first feat, and then 10 from the next *five*.
Actually, using his extra toughness he would get 30 HPs (2 + 4 + 6 +8 +10 = 30), still making it more powerfull, but not as much as you say.

Gezina van den Vechte, Fallen celestial, Champion of Hell