Grappling a ghost?

[Deaxsa]

Say i'm a druid and i cast Spirit Jaws while fighting a ghost. Does it just auto-lose the grapple, or does it act with a Str score of 10? Or any situation in which something without a strength score begins to grapple (or trip, or bull rush, etc).

Methinks that they really should act like paper. Or give them a -5 to the grapple check (as if they had a str score of 0, not -). Basically, their form should be shredded when it is able to be targeted that way.

[Yanisa]

Ghost, and in general Incorporeal creatures, are flat out immune to grappling.

Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled.

[BWR]

Here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a).
(https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a)
3 seconds of Google.

[Yanisa]

Here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a).
(https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a)
3 seconds of Google.

:smallconfused:

The whole charisma for grappling is not in the rules as far as I can see. So did that article just make that rule up? A dexterity check for the grapple itself makes at least some more sense then charisma.

[BWR]

It's an expansion of the rules for precisely this sort of situation. Charisma is generally used as strength of personality in d20, so it makes perfect sense for Charisma to be used, especially when you consider how many other supernatural abilities are keyed off Cha.

[Ravens_cry]

I say you strip down, oil up, don a +1 ghost touch Necklace of Natural Attacks, and get Greco-Roman on its ectoplasmic ass. Not in the rules, but you so should be able to.

[Yanisa]

I mean that dexterity is offered within the books as an alternative to attack rolls (due lack of strength score and all that) and grapple happens to be an attack, sort off. The charisma comes straight out of no where, but you can make an logical argument why it would work in universe.

[Psyren]

Here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a).
(https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a)
3 seconds of Google.

Rules of the Game is not RAW and while it can be helpful to expand on places the rules are not clear, it does not take precedence in places where it directly contradicts them. It typically consists of Skip's houserules without having consulted any other designers. For example, this other RotG article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) claims that antimagic fields block line of effect, which is directly contradicted by Rules Compendium pg. 11.

Yanisa is correct - by RAW, incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled, period. It also makes sense, because a pair of jaws (even force jaws) will have gaps that a ghost or other ectoplasmic entity could slip through.

[Necroticplague]

Yes, however ghosts are also Ethereal, meaning they can be grappled by the jaws because its a force effect. As for what they would use while grappling, its simple: use their strength score. Ghosts have a strength score on the Ethereal plane, where they aren't incorporeal, its just when they manifest on the material that they're incorporeal (on the material plane, they're still entirely solid on the Ethereal while manifesting).

[Jack_Simth]

Say i'm a druid and i cast Spirit Jaws while fighting a ghost. Does it just auto-lose the grapple, or does it act with a Str score of 10? Or any situation in which something without a strength score begins to grapple (or trip, or bull rush, etc).

Methinks that they really should act like paper. Or give them a -5 to the grapple check (as if they had a str score of 0, not -). Basically, their form should be shredded when it is able to be targeted that way.

The ghost (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm), specifically, is a very special case. On the material plane, they're incorporeal (and have no strength score). On the Ethereal plane, they're corporeal, however, and do ... and they're on both simultaneously (see the Manifestation special quality). As per the Ethereal State definition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness), Force effects extend to the Ethereal. Spirit Jaws, as I recall, is force-based, which means they affect creatures on the Ethereal plane normally. So yes, Spirit Jaws can grapple a ghost, but the ghost gets to use it's strength score (as it's on the ethereal, too).

[Psyren]

So all they have to do is manifest and slip free once their immunity kicks in. Not much of a barrier.

[Yanisa]

So all they have to do is manifest and slip free once their immunity kicks in. Not much of a barrier.

Nope, it doesn't seem to work like that. Ghosts are weird.


A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

Because the ghost remain on the ethereal plane it can be affected by force magic from the material plane towards the ethereal plane, it bypasses the whole incorporeal part. I think. It's weird regardless.

[Psyren]

Nope, it doesn't seem to work like that. Ghosts are weird.



Because the ghost remain on the ethereal plane it can be affected by force magic from the material plane towards the ethereal plane, it bypasses the whole incorporeal part. I think. It's weird regardless.

It becomes unstoppable force/immovable object at that point and therefore a DM call.

[Yanisa]

It becomes unstoppable force/immovable object at that point and therefore a DM call.
I dunno, ethereal creatures affect ghosts normally, and the ghost keeps being on the ethereal plane. So mr ghost cannot shake an ethereal creature off by manifesting. I guess the same applies to spells...? If you can choose on what plane the spell hits. :smallconfused:

I do wonder why ghosts are the only incorporeal undead that also haunt the ethereal plane too.

[Psyren]

I dunno, ethereal creatures affect ghosts normally, and the ghost keeps being on the ethereal plane. So mr ghost cannot shake an ethereal creature off by manifesting. I guess the same applies to spells...? If you can choose on what plane the spell hits. :smallconfused:

But they're still incorporeal and therefore get blanket immunity. Like I said, DM call.

[OldTrees1]

A manifested Ghost is Corporeal on the Ethereal plane. Corporeal creatures use their Strength score (yes, ghosts have a Strength score) when grappling.

A force effect interacts with Ethereal creatures as if it were on the Ethereal plane.

So the Ghost does not have its incorporeal based immunity to grapple against a force effect.

[CIDE]

The Shen class (Dragon Magazine) explicitly gains the ability to grapple ghosts.

[Deaxsa]

It's an expansion of the rules for precisely this sort of situation. Charisma is generally used as strength of personality in d20, so it makes perfect sense for Charisma to be used, especially when you consider how many other supernatural abilities are keyed off Cha.

Pet peeve of mine, but Int is generally used as Mental Dex, while Cha gets double-duty as mental Con AND Str? It makes sense, but suddenly, your ghost bard has ludicrous AC, saves (if he took force of personality), AND combat maneuver checks?


I mean that dexterity is offered within the books as an alternative to attack rolls (due lack of strength score and all that) and grapple happens to be an attack, sort off. The charisma comes straight out of no where, but you can make an logical argument why it would work in universe.

While I agree with you that Cha comes out of nowhere, Dex makes as little sense as Cha. I'm fast therefore i'm strong.. is a silly argument.


Rules of the Game is not RAW and while it can be helpful to expand on places the rules are not clear, it does not take precedence in places where it directly contradicts them. It typically consists of Skip's houserules without having consulted any other designers. For example, this other RotG article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050503a) claims that antimagic fields block line of effect, which is directly contradicted by Rules Compendium pg. 11.

Yanisa is correct - by RAW, incorporeal creatures cannot be grappled, period. It also makes sense, because a pair of jaws (even force jaws) will have gaps that a ghost or other ectoplasmic entity could slip through.

Okay. i read this (especially the last bit about the gaps), and then i realized the problem: we're restricting ourselves to assuming the ghost has to make a GRAPPLE check. This is not true. Maybe a good 'fix' is to agree with RAW: ghosts DON'T have a Strength score. They may NOT make grapple checks. What they may make, on the other hand, are escape artist checks. So Spirit jaws vs a ghost (or other incorporeal foe) would ALWAYS be grapple check vs. escape artist check. Additionally, this means that even manifested ghosts may not initiate grapple checks ever. Thoughts?

Edit: best of all, it means you can do this: :smallbiggrin:


I say you strip down, oil up, don a +1 ghost touch Necklace of Natural Attacks, and get Greco-Roman on its ectoplasmic ass. Not in the rules, but you so should be able to.

[OldTrees1]

Okay. i read this (especially the last bit about the gaps), and then i realized the problem: we're restricting ourselves to assuming the ghost has to make a GRAPPLE check. This is not true. Maybe a good 'fix' is to agree with RAW: ghosts DON'T have a Strength score. They may NOT make grapple checks. What they may make, on the other hand, are escape artist checks. So Spirit jaws vs a ghost (or other incorporeal foe) would ALWAYS be grapple check vs. escape artist check. Additionally, this means that even manifested ghosts may not initiate grapple checks ever. Thoughts?

False: According to RAW, Ghosts have a Strength score on the ethereal plane.

[Yanisa]

While I agree with you that Cha comes out of nowhere, Dex makes as little sense as Cha. I'm fast therefore i'm strong.. is a silly argument.
Dexterity has a history to be used for attack rolls (not damage). Hand-eye coordination and all that, not sure if that helps in a grapple, but contrast that to holding someone down with the force of your personality.

But it doesn't matter because ghosts ALWAYS have a strength score, even when incorporeal. Manifesting doesn't give the ghost the incorporeal subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#incorporealSubtype), but rather makes the ghost incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality). A slight difference, but that means they keep that strength score.

Not that matters because:


we're restricting ourselves to assuming the ghost has to make a GRAPPLE check. This is not true
First off, the only reason an incorporeal creature doesn't have to make a grapple check is because it is immune to grapple. That is also why it cannot grapple other creatures. But we are dealing with ghosts, and ghosts are weird.

A non manifested ghosts floating around the ethereal can be grappled and grapple normally as a ethereal creature.

A manifested ghost however is a Schrodinger's cat like creature. It both exists on the ethereal plane and the material plane. If you grapple it on the ethereal plane, it is still immune to grapple on the material plane and thus is not grappled on said material plane. So the ghost is both grappled and immune to grappling at the same time. Ergo DM call, Ergo Psyren is right.

Because the description of manifesting seems to hint that the ghosts strongest presence is on the material plane (evident by the line "A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane") I would say the immunity caries trough the ethereal plane, thus a manifesting ghost is immune to grapple. But your DM ruling may vary.

However you can grapple a ghost in an anti magic field, due manifesting being a supernatural ability, but then spirit jaw also wouldn't work. Also good luck finding a non magical way to grapple an ethereal creature.