Rain Man of the Bow (PF)

[Reprimand]

I'm making a ranger I rolled really well except on 1 roll so I was going to tank charisma and become the Rain Man of the bow. Thoughts on my build would be appreciated.

My stats would be 15 str, 20 dex (after racial mod and level 4 point), 15 con, 15 wis, 13 int, 5 cha.

My feats would look like this

1(L) - Point Blank Shot
1(H) - Precise Shot
1(B) - Track
2(B) - Rapid Shot
3(L) - Deadly Aim
3(B) - Endurance
5(L) - Weapon Focus: Longbow
6(B) - Improved Precise Shot
7(L) - Combat Reflexes
9(L) - Snap Shot
10(B) - Point Blank Master
11(L) - Improved Snap Shot
13(L) - Manyshot
15(L) - Clustered Shots
17(L) -
19(L) -

Not sure what to take for 17 and 19 so help there would be nice. I was going to take combat reflexes instead of manyshot at 7 to become a turret at level 11.

Favored enemy Undead and evil outsiders
Favored Terrain underground

Traits
Magical Knack (+2 to caster level unless it would put you over your caster level so I'm at -1 caster level not -3)
Sworn Enemy: Undead (+1 attack bonus on AoOs vs undead)

Animal companion is a male horse named Abrams (yes, like the tank) and likes apples

[khachaturian]

unless endurance is a feat tax for something else, i'm not seeing how it fits in

[Reprimand]

3rd level ranger gives you endurance

The little (B) means bonus feat
The little (L) means level feat

I also forgot to put in track at level 1 but eh, EDIT: fixed

[Keneth]

Even with all that focus on archery, this is gonna end up being a really weak character. The simple fact that you can't add Dex to damage for ranged weapons (but you can for melee!) is just ridiculous.

My only suggestion is, you should invest some resources into being a switch hitter. Either go with Weapon Finesse + Piranha Strike + agile short sword, or Power Attack + any greatsword.

You always want to be able to hit stuff in melee and be at least somewhat decent at doing so, even if you're primarily a ranged character.

[Reprimand]

Even with all that focus on archery, this is gonna end up being a really weak character. The simple fact that you can't add Dex to damage for ranged weapons (but you can for melee!) is just ridiculous.

My only suggestion is, you should invest some resources into being a switch hitter. Either go with Weapon Finesse + Piranha Strike + agile short sword, or Power Attack + any greatsword.

You always want to be able to hit stuff in melee and be at least somewhat decent at doing so, even if you're primarily a ranged character.

I've read and understand treantmonk's guide but with point blank mastery I can just not switch and attack in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity anyway. Why bother switching to use power attack when I can just use deadly aim into melee? I also threaten 15' around me with improved snap shot.

I understand I can't add dex to damage so I'm using a composite bow with what will be 16 str (3) + whatever other modifers I don't have to worry about DR since I just total my damage with clustered shots not to mention special arrows..

Also when I use this character before 10th level I just carry a greatsword without power attack less damage but it does the job

[Keneth]

Because using a bow is not always an option. Sometimes you can't use both hands (like when someone grapples you), sometimes ranged weapons are ineffective (windstorm), etc.

If you put everything you've got into only one thing, you'll be really good at that thing, but that also means that you can be quickly and completely shut down.

Plus, a lot can happen from lvl 1 to lvl 10 (when you've elected to take point blank master). Are you expecting not to run into any trouble for the first half of the campaign? You can always retrain the feats later.

[Reprimand]

I wasn't sure I could retrain feats like I could in 3.5

Mostly were just going up against environment appropriate encounters the GM is rather new and the main villain is a aristocrat with a ton of money Generally as long as we stick to underground areas (which we are) there isn't a lot I can't handle and were already level 7.

It's also not to say I don't have other means I fighting

I have several daggers and a morning star for bypassing DR on certain creatures and the daggers/gauntlet and used during grapples

I haven't run into a problem yet + a studded gauntlet for threatening spaces around me while using a bow.

[Keneth]

It is possible to retrain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining#TOC-Feat) feats, along with just about anything else. Although there's a modest fee involved and you might need to find a trainer.

[Reprimand]

I'll bookmark that, thanks.

I mean you could argue that my character is weak because it focuses on one thing.

But my DM had to ask me to tone down the powergaming so this is what I have.

I was literally one spell level away from becoming god because we had a scroll of gate and I almost had enough levels to cast simulacrum.

We're using SOME 3.5 spells

[Keneth]

He's not weak because he focuses on one thing, he's weak because that thing is archery. :smallwink:

[Reprimand]

He's not weak because he focuses on one thing, he's weak because that thing is archery. :smallwink:

What would be something to focus on without being either op or underpowered?

like a couple of examples

[OverdrivePrime]

I don't know where anyone's getting "weak" from this build. I guess it's vulnerable to Charisma drain from a ghost or something, but any character with a dump stat could say the same.

Reprimand, it looks like you're covering your bases well to be your group's heavy machine gunner. What sort of damage are you seeing? Is it usually enough?

You might consider an adaptive bow (+1000 gp) instead of a mighty bow to take advantage of buff spells like Bull's Strength and the like.

Also consider picking up bracers of falcon's aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-falcon-s-aim) asap. Only 4000gp and they give your bow a 19-20 crit range and a +1 competence bonus to hit, as well as +3 to your perception checks.

[khachaturian]

i certainly wouldn't call the build weak; when it works, it works really well. but it is *very* vulnerable to being shut down by pretty trivial strategies. wind wall is an obvious way to shut this character down, but honestly, lower level spells like fog cloud, or even obscuring mist and silent image can make it impossible for you to target a character.

[PsyBomb]

Oddly, that build will work better on a Fighter or Zen Archer chassis.

[arkangel111]

I second both the adaptive and the falcons aim bracers... look at getting the bracers of greater archery as well added onto those bracers. I am currently a level 14 ranger focused on archery and have now done the most amount of damage in my career. After a couple rounds buffing (damn thing had a huge AC and I couldn't hit reliably) I cast a few spells and gave myself a total +32 to hit and still needed a 9+. After that I managed to hit 4x with 5 arrows (many shot) and crit with 3 of them. the auto confirm from Quarry made sure I hit for around 400 dmg in 1 round (round 4, 2 rounds buffing, first was all misses). So anyone who tells you an archery build is weak is flat out wrong. I focused primarily on strength, originally planning to be a switch hitter, but found that I could always full attack with the bow, or I could waste several rounds moving from enemy to enemy and only get one attack once I dropped my bow.

Another thing to look into is a plus 4 enchantment for your bow, brilliant energy (don't have the money myself) it lets you bypass armor, drastically raising your amount of hits. If anyone knows of a better way to increase your to hit with a bow I would appreciate it. the cheaper the better.

If cash isn't a problem for you several stacks of +2 arrows (Shocking, Frost) can drastically increase your damage, but you will blow threw them super fast. I just bought 100 and used ~25 in 2 combats.

Choose your favored enemies and terrains wisely, and let the arrows loose. you won't be disappointed once you realize even the blinking rogue only gets one attack/round with most combats and you have full attacked every round with as many attacks as most monks (rapid/manyshot stack, and you have full bab.).

One more thing. If you don't mind the caster level loss, a one level dip of zen archer monk lets you roll an extra d20 for one attack every round giving you a much better chance to hit, though I forget the name of the ability.

[Keneth]

So anyone who tells you an archery build is weak is flat out wrong.

So you made three crits in a round against an enemy relying on AC and that's your base point for a DPR comparison? :smallconfused:

I'd be surprised if you didn't score over 400 damage at 14th level in such circumstances.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm making a ranger I rolled really well except on 1 roll so I was going to tank charisma and become the Rain Man of the bow. Thoughts on my build would be appreciated.

My stats would be 15 str, 20 dex (after racial mod and level 4 point), 15 con, 15 wis, 13 int, 5 cha.

...You rolled ALL odds?! That's unfortunate.


My feats would look like this

1(L) - Point Blank Shot
1(H) - Precise Shot
1(B) - Track
2(B) - Rapid Shot
3(L) - Deadly Aim
3(B) - Endurance
5(L) - Weapon Focus: Longbow
6(B) - Improved Precise Shot
7(L) - Combat Reflexes
9(L) - Snap Shot
10(B) - Point Blank Master
11(L) - Improved Snap Shot
13(L) - Manyshot
15(L) - Clustered Shots
17(L) -
19(L) -

Not sure what to take for 17 and 19 so help there would be nice. I was going to take combat reflexes instead of manyshot at 7 to become a turret at level 11.

Snap Shot is a very costly chain for not-fighters; it's basically 3 feats long (Snap Shot, Imp. Snap Shot, Combat Reflexes) until then it's not worth it at all. Even then, you really shouldn't go looking to mix it up in melee range so it'll be situational. I'd drop it to much later in the build. Weapon Focus Longbow can wait till level 9 so you have it just in time for Point Blank Master. That's the whole reason it's in there at all, right? Deadly Aim...it's a bad trade at higher levels and at low levels you're starving for feats, so dropping it out from your feats entirely isn't a bad thing if necessary. You basically want IPS at Ranger 6 and PBM at Ranger 10 (which you did, good job) and Manyshot and Clustered Shots ASAP in that order (so Manyshot at 9, Clustered at 9, or 11 if using 9 for weapon focus). Boon Companion is a good feat to erase your penalty on animal companion progression. Basically, consider this build:

1(L) - Point Blank Shot
1(H) - Precise Shot
1(B) - Track
2(B) - Rapid Shot
3(L) - Deadly Aim
3(B) - Endurance
5(L) - Boon Companion
6(B) - Improved Precise Shot
7(L) - Manyshot
9(L) - Weapon Focus: Longbow
10(B) - Point Blank Master
11(L) - Clustered Shots
13(L) - Snap Shot
15(L) - Imp. Snap Shot
17(L) - Combat Reflexes
19(L) -

Or this modification:
1(L) - Point Blank Shot
1(H) - Precise Shot
1(B) - Track
2(B) - Rapid Shot
3(L) - Weapon Focus: Longbow
3(B) - Endurance
5(L) - Boon Companion
6(B) - Improved Precise Shot
7(L) - Manyshot
9(L) - Clustered Shots
10(B) - Point Blank Master
11(L) - Snap Shot
13(L) - Imp. Snap Shot
15(L) - Combat Reflexes
17(L) -
19(L) -

Or drop the snap shot line entirely and pick up Mounted Combat and Trick Riding instead. If anyone else in the party is an archer, there's a teamwork feat to shoot at someone as an immediate action if your ally shoots at him; it's basically a free attack each round for both of you. I think it's called Target of Opportunity. Another handy teamwork feat is Lookout; that one you could just take with your animal companion and then you both get a lot more surprise rounds.


Favored enemy Undead and evil outsiders
Favored Terrain underground

Traits
Magical Knack (+2 to caster level unless it would put you over your caster level so I'm at -1 caster level not -3)
Sworn Enemy: Undead (+1 attack bonus on AoOs vs undead)

Magical Knack is good; I don't think Sworn Enemy is good at all, it's much worse than half a feat and you won't even be using it at all until level 9 or so. There are traits to add nearly any skill as a class skill and get a +1; there's a trait to reroll a save 1/day; there's a trait to not lose dex to AC at the start of combat; there's a trait to make Use Magic Device Int-based (though it's the same category of trait as Magical Knack, so...off limits for you); there's....a lot of great traits.

Keep in mind for favored enemy: keep something maxed out, don't spread out the bonuses too much that you don't have at least one creature type as high as it can legally go. That's because the Instant Enemy spell exists...


Animal companion is a male horse named Abrams (yes, like the tank) and likes apples

Consider switching to a Roc once you have an effective Druid level of 7.


Also consider picking up bracers of falcon's aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/bracers-of-falcon-s-aim) asap. Only 4000gp and they give your bow a 19-20 crit range and a +1 competence bonus to hit, as well as +3 to your perception checks.

Didn't that used to be 2000 gp? Did all of the people complaining about how it was better than a worthless item (bracers of archery) actually get their way? :smalleek:

[Sayt]

I don't think roc is a legal choice for Rangers. However, you can get a Hippogriff in ranger with the Sable Company Marine archetype, which is the fastest animal companion in pathfinder once or matures, not counting a sprinting cheetah. That said, it does cost you a whole favored terrain. (Life that's a huge cost)

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think roc is a legal choice for Rangers.

From the Roc entry (http://paizo.com/prd/monsters/roc.html):


Rocs taken as animal companions by druids or rangers are typically newly hatched birds—a baby roc is the size of a person and ready for flight and hunting within minutes of hatching. Unfortunately for druids seeking animal companions of legendary size, an animal companion roc is limited to Large size—still large enough for a Medium druid or ranger to use the flying beast as a mount.

[OverdrivePrime]

Didn't that used to be 2000 gp? Did all of the people complaining about how it was better than a worthless item (bracers of archery) actually get their way? :smalleek:

I can't remember. The cost to create it is 2k, so maybe that's what you were thinking of? At 4k it's still cheaper than bracers of archery by a thousand gold.

[Sayt]

*Stuff*

Odd, the Ranger has a specific white-list of animal companions it can take on the pfsrd, but the Bestiary entry mentions that they can be taken by Druids and Rangers, and it seems like one would need to get into the ugliness of parsing Rules from Fluff text.

[arkangel111]

Beastmaster ranger archetype gets you animal companions as a druid.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Odd, the Ranger has a specific white-list of animal companions it can take on the pfsrd, but the Bestiary entry mentions that they can be taken by Druids and Rangers, and it seems like one would need to get into the ugliness of parsing Rules from Fluff text.

The Bestiary came out after the Core rulebook. The druid does not list Roc as an option in the core rulebook, either. Lots of options came out after core for animals. Most sadly don't specify whether rangers can get them or not, but Roc at least does.

Considering ranger is flat out weaker than druid, I'd just let ranger take all the new druid options. Add in the fact that other primary casters like Fey bloodline Sorcerer, anyone with the Animal Domain, and Nature Oracle can now choose any of the options and....it becomes really hard to justify why rangers should be shafted.

In Pathfinder Society, they houserule that rangers can only take the options listed in core. PFS has a lot of horrible houserules that should give one pause and make one reconsider joining one of those games. Just mentioning before someone brings it up as a "counter-argument."

[DarkOne-Rob]

Just remember that as a Ranger you can take bonus feats without investing in all their prerequisites. This can allow you several alternatives if archery becomes a problem due to clever use of spell effects. Don't go and invest in the sub-par feats because you don't need them.

As a side note, to describe archery as weak because magic shuts it down is to ignore that magic shuts down melee just as effectively, if not worse. Consistent full attack actions as an archer is significantly more likely to put out the damage than inconsistent melee attacks.