Rogue/Warlock/Arcane Trickster -- looking for some help for my brother!

[RavynsLand]

Whelp, our party was destroyed by a Deck of Many Things. Our Telepath/Puppet Master drew the Skull and was curbstomped by a Dread Wraith, and our Ruby Knight Vindicator drew the Talons which erased all of his magical gear, including the artifact sword he'd spent the entire game looking for, so he retired on the spot.

This leaves my 9th level Chordsage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338243-Chordsage!&p=17223876#post17223876) with a massive reputation, a hell of a lot of money, and a couple of minor artifacts he's looking for a dragon to sell to.

Our psion is making a boring 2h Fighter, but my brother (the RKV) has decided on a more unusual combo that we've been looking into together, and I figured I'd ask you guys for some tips.

He's starting at 8th level and will be a Rogue3/Warlock3/Arcane Trickster2 (using Fey Presence and Spell Hand to apply for ArTrick).

So I guess the question is, how can we make this best work? What invocations/feats are best to use to constantly keep using sneak attack? I looked into Quicken SLA but to quicken Flee the Scene he'd have to be like 16th level, and even to quicken the Invisibility one he'd have to be 12th. Any suggestions, gang?

[Chronos]

Why rogue 4? Rogue 3 would meet the Sneak Attack prerequisite, and leave more room for warlock and PrC. For that matter, you could get your Sneak Attack in just two levels, by dipping one level each in a pair of classes (any two of rogue, spellthief, psychic rogue, ninja, sneak attack variant fighter, or a variety of prestige classes).

Spell Hand will meet the Mage Hand prerequisite, but how are you planning on meeting the "3rd level arcane spell" requirement?

I'm also not sure why Beguiler doesn't work for you-- They get Search, Open Lock, and Disable Device, as well as trapfinding. Was there something else you meant by "machinist skills"?

Anyway, for invocations, you might consider Devil's Sight and Darkness, to conceal you without impeding your own vision. You can also then take the feat Blend Into Shadows, from Drow of the Underdark, to effectively gain Hide in Plain Sight.

[Doc_Maynot]

From Dragon Magazine there is a feat called eldritch claws, lets you manifest EB as a set of claws you can use as normal attacks.

Instead of dropping the feat on hide in plain sight there is the collar of umbral metamorphosis from Tome of Magic, very useful.

Also if they want to keep up their rogue skill list they can start as a human and take the able learner feat.

And if they want to increase that EB damage the beauty of Hellfire Warlock may be for him.

[RavynsLand]

Why rogue 4? Rogue 3 would meet the Sneak Attack prerequisite, and leave more room for warlock and PrC. For that matter, you could get your Sneak Attack in just two levels, by dipping one level each in a pair of classes (any two of rogue, spellthief, psychic rogue, ninja, sneak attack variant fighter, or a variety of prestige classes).

I was looking at the skill requirements which were 7 ranks in rogue skills.


Spell Hand will meet the Mage Hand prerequisite, but how are you planning on meeting the "3rd level arcane spell" requirement?

Somehow that bit managed to totally slip me. And it takes a 6th-level warlock to get the 3rd-level equivalent spells... wow, I screwed up.


I'm also not sure why Beguiler doesn't work for you-- They get Search, Open Lock, and Disable Device, as well as trapfinding. Was there something else you meant by "machinist skills"?

Beguiler itself would work, it's Eldritch Theurge that doesn't work, as they totally stop getting skills while Arcane Trickster keeps getting them. By machinist skills I mean Open Lock, Search, and Disable Device -- stuff to deal with locks and traps (machines).


Anyway, for invocations, you might consider Devil's Sight and Darkness, to conceal you without impeding your own vision. You can also then take the feat Blend Into Shadows, from Drow of the Underdark, to effectively gain Hide in Plain Sight.

I'll check out that Blend into Shadows for sure, and those others are good ideas as well.

[RavynsLand]

From Dragon Magazine there is a feat called eldritch claws, lets you manifest EB as a set of claws you can use as normal attacks.

Instead of dropping the feat on hide in plain sight there is the collar of umbral metamorphosis from Tome of Magic, very useful.

Also if they want to keep up their rogue skill list they can start as a human and take the able learner feat.

And if they want to increase that EB damage the beauty of Hellfire Warlock may be for him.

He wants to be a fey warlock. :( I don't think anything involving "Hellfire" would really work for our group unfortunately.

And we don't have Tome of Magic. x_x

[Urpriest]

I was looking at the skill requirements which were 7 ranks in rogue skills.

Unless the character's Int is pretty low, you can just pick up the extra one rank per skill during the Warlock levels.




Somehow that bit managed to totally slip me. And it takes a 6th-level warlock to get the 3rd-level equivalent spells... wow, I screwed up.

Some SLA-granting feats may help.

[RavynsLand]

Unless the character's Int is pretty low, you can just pick up the extra one rank per skill during the Warlock levels.

Though they'd be cross-classed, which makes it trickier.


Some SLA-granting feats may help.[/QUOTE]

Any suggestions?

Also, what if he did Beguiler/Warlock/Eldritch Theurge/Arcane Trickster, using ET to get his warlock level high enough to get into AT without dead air? Use Precocious Apprentice to get 2nd level spells immediately and be a Beguiler1/Rogue1/Warlock3/Eldritch Theurge3/SA-granting PR1/Arcane Trickster10/Warlock+1?

[Techwarrior]

Some SLA-granting feats may help.

This. A human Rogue 3/Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 2 with Able Learner (1), Spell Hand (H), Fey Heritage (3), and Fey Presence (6) would get your friend the fey flavor and prerequisites that they seem to want, without being too terrible on the guy.

Able Learner allows you to keep buying cross-class skills as if they were class skills.

[RavynsLand]

A human Rogue 3/Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster 2 with Able Learner (1), Spell Hand (H), Fey Heritage (3), and Fey Presence (6) would get your friend the fey flavor and prerequisites that they seem to want, without being too terrible on the guy.

I'm familiar with Uncanny Trickster, but what does it give in this scenario?

And you're absolutely right, Fey Presence makes this a cakewalk.


Able Learner allows you to keep buying cross-class skills as if they were class skills.

Right! I keep forgetting it does that. Perfect!

[Chronos]

For the skills, you just take one level of one roguelike class, then two levels of something else, then one level of another roguelike class. Your level cap goes up with every level of every class, as long as it's a class skill for any of them, and you pay the standard rate as long as it's a class skill for your current class. So you can catch up on your skills. You might still need to buy a couple of ranks cross-class to get enough in time, but you can get most of them without resorting to that.

And Warlocks never meet a requirement of "Able to cast Xth level spells". The only prerequisites they meet are "Arcane caster level X" or "Able to cast Y specific spell, if an invocation mimics it".

[RavynsLand]

For the skills, you just take one level of one roguelike class, then two levels of something else, then one level of another roguelike class. Your level cap goes up with every level of every class, as long as it's a class skill for any of them, and you pay the standard rate as long as it's a class skill for your current class. So you can catch up on your skills. You might still need to buy a couple of ranks cross-class to get enough in time, but you can get most of them without resorting to that.

And Warlocks never meet a requirement of "Able to cast Xth level spells". The only prerequisites they meet are "Arcane caster level X" or "Able to cast Y specific spell, if an invocation mimics it".

In our group we always allow them if they can imitate the spell level, since so many prestige classes (esp. pre-CArc ones) don't take warlocks into consideration. So unless a prestige class specifically requires spell slots and stuff (Arcane Trickster does not) we allow warlock.

[Techwarrior]

I'm familiar with Uncanny Trickster, but what does it give in this scenario?

And you're absolutely right, Fey Presence makes this a cakewalk.


It gives me a chance to insert my foot in my mouth. I meant Arcane Trickster (the one you mentioned in your OP) and got them mixed up while posting.

[RavynsLand]

It gives me a chance to insert my foot in my mouth. I meant Arcane Trickster (the one you mentioned in your OP) and got them mixed up while posting.

Hah! Thanks so much, I'll edit the OP to fit in the build.

[squiggit]

He wants to be a fey warlock. :( I don't think anything involving "Hellfire" would really work for our group unfortunately.

And we don't have Tome of Magic. x_x

Feylocks are just a refluffing in 3.5 so what's stopping you from refluffing Hellfire Warlock to something more fey related? Maybe talk to your DM about changing the language requirement.

[RavynsLand]

Feylocks are just a refluffing in 3.5 so what's stopping you from refluffing Hellfire Warlock to something more fey related? Maybe talk to your DM about changing the language requirement.

Hmm, I checked it out. I'll pitch it to him but if I know my brother he'll HATE the idea of con damage. But I'll pitch it.

[JeminiZero]

In our group we always allow them if they can imitate the spell level, since so many prestige classes (esp. pre-CArc ones) don't take warlocks into consideration. So unless a prestige class specifically requires spell slots and stuff (Arcane Trickster does not) we allow warlock.
In that case, it would be much easier to just gun for Unseen Seer [Complete Mage]. Something like 1 Rogue (or Scout, see below) / 4 Warlock / 10 Unseen Seer. The requirements for Unseen Seer are: 1st level arcane spells including 2 divinations. Warlocks get Detect Magic at will, and usually take See the Unseen (which is based on See Invisibility) and under your houserules qualify for Unseen Seer, without having to burn feats on Fey stuff.

The advantage of unseen seer over Arcane Trickster is: faster BAB progression, at the cost of lower sneak attack. But also he can progress Skirmish damage instead of sneak attack.

If you go with Rogue, I recommend going for Glaivelock (extra attacks from higher BAB), and using flanking to trigger his sneak attack.

If not, you can use Scout. Scouts get their damage bonus as long as they move, and since Warlocks (aside from Glaivelocks) usually have nothing better to do with their move action, they move and fire to trigger skirmish damage.

(Also see if you can apply Practiced Spellcaster applied to Warlock. It takes care of the Rogue dip, and the 3 caster level penalty for Unseen Seer).

[Ellowryn]

Involving the whole class/cross-class skill thing, i would just like to point this out:

"If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.) For example, a 7th-level rogue/4th-level wizard (an 11th-level character) can have as many as 14 ranks in any skill that is a class skill for rogues or wizards. That same character can have as many as 7 ranks in any skill that is not a class skill for rogues or wizards."

This from Phb3.5 pg 59

So it only takes 1 level of rogue to forever have all the rogue skills as class skills, so while Able Learner is a nice feat, its not required.

Hope that helps!

[Techwarrior]

In that case, it would be much easier to just gun for Unseen Seer [Complete Mage]. Something like 1 Rogue (or Scout, see below) / 4 Warlock / 10 Unseen Seer. The requirements for Unseen Seer are: 1st level arcane spells including 2 divinations. Warlocks get Detect Magic at will, and usually take See the Unseen (which is based on See Invisibility) and under your houserules qualify for Unseen Seer, without having to burn feats on Fey stuff.

The advantage of unseen seer over Arcane Trickster is: faster BAB progression, at the cost of lower sneak attack. But also he can progress Skirmish damage instead of sneak attack.

If you go with Rogue, I recommend going for Glaivelock (extra attacks from higher BAB), and using flanking to trigger his sneak attack.

If not, you can use Scout. Scouts get their damage bonus as long as they move, and since Warlocks (aside from Glaivelocks) usually have nothing better to do with their move action, they move and fire to trigger skirmish damage.

(Also see if you can apply Practiced Spellcaster applied to Warlock. It takes care of the Rogue dip, and the 3 caster level penalty for Unseen Seer).

Unseen Seer is better for actual casters though. A warlock doesn't benefit from Advanced Learning, and the Sneak Attack progression is much worse for Unseen Seer. Don't get me wrong, it's a great class, I just don't see that it's really what the OP is looking for.

Glaivelock is also a really good idea. If you go to Rogue 3, Penetrating Strike works for the Glaive, but not for the normal blast.

[RavynsLand]

What exactly is a Glaivelock? I've heard of it but don't know where it comes from or what it actually does.

[JeminiZero]

Glaivelocks just refer to Warlocks using the Eldritch Glaive blast shape. A guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?159708).

[RavynsLand]

I may have just convinced him to go Rogue1/Scout2/Warlock3/Arcane Trickster2. So we can skip the sneaky stuff and just kite with blasts :D