Arcanist or Sorcerer Gish Help

[AngelisBlack]

Hey guys! I'm trying to create a Catfolk Arcanist or Sorcerer Gish in Pathfinder using only Pathfinder rules and sources. I've read up on a few of the pathfinder gish guides, but I'm still having trouble with optimization.

Sources: Most recent pathfinder Advanced Class Guide playtest, and all the rest of Pathfinder 1st party sources.

The goal: Hopefully ending up at 20th level with a BAB of at least 16 and a caster level of preferably 17 or 18.

Parameters [non-negotiable]:
Race: Catfolk
Class: Arcanist or Sorcerer
Point Buy: 15 or 20
Alignment: Not Evil, nor Lawful Good [my fellow players make playing a Paladin...difficult, and no, joining another gaming group is not viable]

What I'm wondering also, is a Dex based gish possible or preferable? The Eldritch Knight capstone makes playing finessable high crit weapons tempting.

What I have so far:

Stats 15 point buy and after racial mods of (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis):
Str 12
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 15
Wis 8
Cha 15

I might be able to convince my DM for a 20 point buy.

Class Lineup: Arcanist 6/Swashbuckler or Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10/Unknown Afterwards
Arcanist Exploits: School Understanding: Admixture Evocation, See Magic, Dimensional Slide, Bloodline Development: Draconic
Feat Lineup: Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Power Attack [when I boost Str up by 1], ???, Profit?


I would definitely appreciate any help on this.

[Larkas]

A bit uninspired, but... Aasimar Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 4/ Eldritch Knight +7. Nets you BAB 17 and 18th level Sorcerer casting. Certainly works if you substitute Sorcerer for Arcanist too.

[genericwit]

I wouldn't try for a gish with those stats, if I were you. You'll be shooting yourself in the foot, and the first 5 or so levels are gonna be hell for you, as you're essentially just a caster geared towards combat (but without the combat class to back it up). Just play a Bloodrager or an Inquisitor or a Magus. With those stat buys, a gish is gonna be really hard to pull off.

[Larkas]

I went browsing the SRD and I found two first-party PrCs you could take with your proposed build and still reach BAB +16 together with 9th level spells. One is the Spherewalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/spherewalker), and should be the easiest to qualify. The other is the Hell Knight Enforcer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer), and could be a drag to qualify. If it wasn't for a small, stupid requirement, you could also use the Dissident of Dawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/dawnflower-dissident). :smallfrown:

[Snowbluff]

A bit uninspired, but... Aasimar Sorcerer 6/ Eldritch Knight 3/ Arcane Archer 4/ Eldritch Knight +7. Nets you BAB 17 and 18th level Sorcerer casting. Certainly works if you substitute Sorcerer for Arcanist too.

Aasimar no longer give outsider weapon proficiency. I wept.

Also, aasimar are not allowed. I would suggest Arcanist1/Fighter1/EK10. One of the Diviner options is a 3rd level SLA, which would get you in.

Here's a build stub I had (from before I knew about the Planetouched nerf) on a sticky:

Aas Wizard EK Traits: Bruising Intellect, (The one for +2 CL)
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int 17
Wis: 9
Cha: 9

Feats: 1 Combat Casting
(EK2) Power Attack
3: Weapon Focus
5: Dazzling Display
(EK6): Cornugan Smash
7: Penetrate Defenses

[Larkas]

D'oh! Totally forgot the OP wanted a cat folk! :smallfrown: Well, the classes on the second post should still help him out.


Aasimar no longer give outsider weapon proficiency. I wept.

What... When... How? They're still outsiders, and that's still part of the outsider type's trait! :smallconfused:

[Snowbluff]

What... When... How? They're still outsiders, and that's still part of the outsider type's trait! :smallconfused:
It's Paizo, Lark. Don't say anything. Just let them do what they want. :smallfrown:

Here is the post (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lhtm?Clarification-request-Do-AasimarsTiefling#11). Ignore it, if you can.

[Larkas]

It's Paizo, Lark. Don't say anything. Just let them do what they want. :smallfrown:

But but but... I still can't find it! Nothing in the Aasimar entry, nothing in the Outsider type description, not even in the native subtype! I don't even... Was that one of those stealth errata/FAQ they're so fond of? Seriously, Paizo? :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Oh. These guys SERIOUSLY can't read the rules they write, right? There's nothing in the entry about 0 HD saying that these creatures lose goddamn CREATURE TYPE TRAITS!!! No worries, Snow, I WILL ignore it. :smallfurious:

[Snowbluff]

But but but... I still can't find it! Nothing in the Aasimar entry, nothing in the Outsider type description, not even in the native subtype! I don't even... Was that one of those stealth errata/FAQ they're so fond of? Seriously, Paizo? :smallannoyed:

EDIT: Oh. These guys SERIOUSLY can't read the rules they write, right? There's nothing in the entry about 0 HD saying that these creatures lose goddamn CREATURE TYPE TRAITS!!! No worries, Snow, I WILL ignore it. :smallfurious:

I think a point of contention is that the rule will NEVER see print. It was listed in the Advanced Race Guide or as a clarification for the that material, which is not due for reprint. The Bestiary will be reprinted without the correction, since it is not intended for player use.

[Larkas]

I think a point of contention is that the rule will NEVER see print. It was listed in the Advanced Race Guide or as a clarification for the that material, which is not due for reprint. The Bestiary will be reprinted without the correction, since it is not intended for player use.

There's nothing about that in the official PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/aasimars.html). Neither is there anything in the d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar), and these guys generally paste "decentralized" FAQ everywhere for our convenience. That's completely under the radar. Do these guys seriously expect us to go board diving for each and every character we decide to make? :smallmad:

Anyways, sorry for hijacking your thread, AngelisBlack. I won't derail it any further.

[Snowbluff]

There's nothing about that in the official PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/featuredRaces/aasimars.html). Neither is there anything in the d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar), and these guys generally paste "decentralized" FAQ everywhere for our convenience. That's completely under the radar. Do these guys seriously expect us to go board diving for each and every character we decide to make? :smallmad: Yes, they do. I would get made with you, but I was already mad about it weeks ago.


Anyways, sorry for hijacking your thread, AngelisBlack. I won't derail it any further.

Mea culpa. Anyway, if you have questions about the above build (I'm mostly suggesting those feats), feel free to ask.

Additionally, Evolve Familiar+Reach+Familiar=Free Aid Attack/Intimidation/some damage.

Finally, anyone who says an Arcanist needs Cha is incredibly incorrect. None of their good features use Cha and/or need Cha.

[AngelisBlack]

I'm surprised about that exploit with the Diviner and the Eldritch Knight. I didn't realize Spell-Like abilities counted towards the spell level requirement. With this in mind and taking into account the other advice I've seen, here's what I got so far:

Catfolk
Stats 15 point buy and after racial mods of (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis):
Str 7
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 8
Cha 14

If a 20 point buy:
Str 8
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 17
Wis 8
Cha 14

Class Lineup: Arcanist 1/Fighter 1 (Archtype Unknown)/Eldritch Knight 10
LV 12: BAB 11 1/2, Caster Level 11

From that, possibly: +Arcanist 4 [+2 BAB]/Spherewalker 4 [+3 BAB] [Ending BAB of 16, and Arcane Caster Level 19 snag 2 additional arcane exploits. I might be missing something but the Spherewalker Capstone just doesn't seem worth it.]

Arcanist Exploits: School Understanding: Scrying Divination

Main Weapon: Agile Rapier (When I get the funds)[Dex to attack and to damage]
Main Armor: Mithril Chain Shirt

Feat Lineup:
Combat Casting [1]
Weapon Finesse [Fighter Bonus1][2]
Arcane Armor Training [3],
Piranha Strike [Eldritch Knight Bonus 1] [3]
Arcane Strike [5]
Eschew Materials [7]
Improved Critical: Rapier [Eldritch Knight 5][7]
Critical Focus [11]
Accursed Critical [Eldritch Knight Bonus 9][11]

[Larkas]

I'm curious: why are you keeping both Int and Cha high? I can't remember the play test, is the arcanist a dual attribute caster?

[Snowbluff]

School Understanding is a nice touch. People keep telling me Arcanist isn't a frakked up classed, but it totally is. :smalltongue:

I suggest Dervish Dance (Finesse a Scimitar, and add dex to damage) or Piranha's Strike.

Chop your Cha down. You're not a sorcerer.

[AngelisBlack]

School Understanding is a nice touch. People keep telling me Arcanist isn't a frakked up classed, but it totally is. :smalltongue:

I suggest Dervish Dance (Finesse a Scimitar, and add dex to damage) or Piranha's Strike.

Chop your Cha down. You're not a sorcerer.

A weapon with the Agile enchantment allows me to add dex to damage anyway. Although it seems that I need to use something else besides a rapier as Piranha strike only works with Light weapons (Rapier is One Handed). Perhaps a Kukri instead? Or is there a better weapon that might be worth a feat?

[Snowbluff]

A weapon with the Agile enchantment allows me to add dex to damage anyway. Although it seems that I need to use something else besides a rapier as Piranha strike only works with Light weapons (Rapier is One Handed). Perhaps a Kukri instead? Or is there a better weapon that might be worth a feat?
I'm more of a "My DM rarely gives me the weapons I want, so I plan feats accordingly" kind of guy.

As for Pirhana Strike, the alternative is bumping up your Str to 13 to use Power Attack, which you could get the two handed bonus with a Rapier.

[stack]

How are you using the rapier two-handed? By default it cannot be.

[Snowbluff]

How are you using the rapier two-handed? By default it cannot be.

Not exactly. The loophole is still present. Power attack mentions nothing about strength bonus, just using 2 hands.

[AngelisBlack]

I'm more of a "My DM rarely gives me the weapons I want, so I plan feats accordingly" kind of guy.

As for Pirhana Strike, the alternative is bumping up your Str to 13 to use Power Attack, which you could get the two handed bonus with a Rapier.

Would the Wakizashi be worth a feat so that I can use that over the Kukri?

[Snowbluff]

Would the Wakizashi be worth a feat so that I can use that over the Kukri?

Protip: Hell no. EWP sucks, especially in pathfinder. It's not a point of damage on average. Dervish Dancer/Power Attack/Piranha Strike are only really worth it for the higher returns. The only instances it would be worth it are those that grant you abilities above and beyond the abilities of regular weapons, like the Spiked Chain used to.