Question about brass knuckles

[jjcrpntr]

I'm a new dm to pathfinder and a new player want to play a monk. Cool no problem with that. But he wants to get brass knuckles. Now this is a new player so he's learning with the rest of us. My question is can you get mw brass knuckles and enchant them with stuff or are the different because they are for making unarmed strikes do lethal damage?

My original ruling was that a player could buy and enchant them like any other weapon because I didn't see anything that said other wise.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm a new dm to pathfinder and a new player want to play a monk. Cool no problem with that. But he wants to get brass knuckles. Now this is a new player so he's learning with the rest of us. My question is can you get mw brass knuckles and enchant them with stuff or are the different because they are for making unarmed strikes do lethal damage?

My original ruling was that a player could buy and enchant them like any other weapon because I didn't see anything that said other wise.

Yes, they can, but brass knuckles don't get monk's boosted unarmed upgrade.

[jjcrpntr]

Yes, they can, but brass knuckles don't get monk's boosted unarmed upgrade.

I thought it would since the description says a monk can use them and use the monk unarmed strike damage

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

They do get monk UA progression. They are so the monk can get enhancements for their attacks.

[animewatcha]

I don't do pathfinder so my only source for it is the d20pfsrd. I could that monks could find flurry with knuckles, but where is thing for it saying can use it for damage progression and enhancements? Likely am missing where it is.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Ok I guess I got the Cestus and the Knuckles mixed up in my head, I was at work when I posted.

Benefit: While wearing a cestus, you are considered armed and your unarmed attacks deal normal damage. If you are proficient with a cestus, your unarmed strikes may deal bludgeoning or piercing damage. Monks are proficient with the cestus.

Since it talks about your unarmed strikes I guess it is just a presumed fact that you use the monk's enhanced unarmed strike

But the knuckles can be enchanted as any normal weapon can.

EDIT: It might be due to the Monk special ability which
*Monk: A monk weapon can be used by a monk to perform a flurry of blows

Of course that does not mean it has to deal with monks unarmed damage though.

[Terazul]

It's on the Paizo site, not the pathfinder SRD site. For some reason they don't have some things as up to date as they are in the APG:


Brass Knuckles: These close combat weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch. They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks. You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you're casting). Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

Bolded for emphasis.

[Larkas]

I have the latest printing of APG, and it says the same thing as the official PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedGear.html#_brass-knuckles), that is, it specifically allows for increased unarmed damage.

Anyways, yes, they can be enchanted. It might lead to some weird interactions with monks and unarmed attacks in general, but nothing that will even remotely break the game.

[Yanisa]

It's on the Paizo site, not the pathfinder SRD site. For some reason they don't have some things as up to date as they are in the APG:



Bolded for emphasis.

It's because brass knuckles got nerfed... not that that is greatly communicated. Ultimate Equipment has the most up to date version, and that one is found on the d20pfsrd. The Advanced Players Guide is out of date and it seems the official SRD too. Good job Paizo. (Atleast the d20pfsrd site keeps track of things like this and updates their site accordingly, for better or worse.)

So yeah, officially, in the newest version brass knuckles don't deal unarmed strike damage. Yay. :smallsigh:

[Keneth]

Yanisa is correct, Paizo has stated that all references to unarmed attacks in weapons should be ignored. Aside from specific abilities which state otherwise, like a zen archer's ki arrows, monks can't use UA damage for their weapons, and no weapons are treated as unarmed attacks. If you want to enchant a monk's unarmed attack, you need to purchase an amulet of mighty fists.

[Vedhin]

The best way to enchant a monk's unarmed strikes in PF is to have Masterwork Transformation (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/masterworkTransformation.html#_masterwork-transformation) cast on them. Their unarmed strike then becomes legal for enchanting.

Nobody let the PF devs know about this; they'd nerf it instantly.

[Keneth]

Haha, masterwork body. I'd allow that in my game just for laughs. I'd even throw in a +2 bonus on the monk's Appearance score. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Oh, and SKR has already vetoed masterwork transformation on the grounds that unarmed strike has no masterwork equivalent. Just to be clear on the RAW.

[Vedhin]

Edit: Oh, and SKR has already vetoed masterwork transformation on the grounds that unarmed strike has no masterwork equivalent. Just to be clear on the RAW.

Well then. May SKR be pummeled by the sadly ineffective fists of all the monks he apparently loathes so much.

But SKR is wrong if he is basing the rulings on those grounds. There is no whitelist or blacklist for being masterwork. By his logic, masterwork longswords are out, and nobody gets magic weapons. The monk's unarmed strike is a weapon, so it has a masterwork version, just like a longsword. The only reason it's not normally masterwork is that it's not crafted, which masterwork transformation gets around by ignoring that limitation on becoming masterwork.

[Keneth]

The monk's unarmed strike is a weapon, so it has a masterwork version, just like a longsword.

Prove it. Nothing in the rules says that every weapon has a masterwork counterpart, and there is no precedence for a masterwork unarmed strike (since that's the creature itself).

[jjcrpntr]

Yanisa is correct, Paizo has stated that all references to unarmed attacks in weapons should be ignored. Aside from specific abilities which state otherwise, like a zen archer's ki arrows, monks can't use UA damage for their weapons, and no weapons are treated as unarmed attacks. If you want to enchant a monk's unarmed attack, you need to purchase an amulet of mighty fists.

That's good to know in the future. The guy playing the monk isn't experienced enough or the type of guy to really exploit anything even remotely so I don't think it will be an issue in my game. But it's good to know for the future thanks guys.

[Snowbluff]

May SKR be pummeled by the sadly ineffective fists of all the monks he apparently loathes so much.


Hey now, nerfing monks is the best decision he's ever made. I hate monks. :smalltongue:

[Larkas]

Hey now, nerfing monks is the best decision he's ever made. I hate monks. :smalltongue:

Hey, now, that's no reason to nerf the poor guys even further :smallbiggrin:

On that note, this (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le61?Monkeying-Around) is probably the best ruling regarding monks to come from Paizo.

[Yanisa]

Haha, masterwork body. I'd allow that in my game just for laughs. I'd even throw in a +2 bonus on the monk's Appearance score. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Oh, and SKR has already vetoed masterwork transformation on the grounds that unarmed strike has no masterwork equivalent. Just to be clear on the RAW.

"Officially" masterwork fist because that is the only part that counts as weapon for magic. But my DM allowed this trick and even gave me the full body, so all my strikes are enchanted (he wanted a kicking, elbowing, kneeing and punching monk).
So I am playing a +2 Monk. :smalltongue:
The barbarian even asked if he could use me as a magic weapon. :smalleek: Or a flail, on the count of me being a dwarf,

But yeah, I call this an exploit which my DM and the group accepted.

Besides that, the blog post Larkas posted with monk errata prices the amulet of mighty fists to the normal price of 2 magical weapons. Which is probably the best way for a monk to get his enchants, and the price isn't unfairly high anymore.

[Keneth]

"Officially" masterwork fist because that is the only part that counts as weapon for magic.

Where'd you get that idea? Unarmed strikes count as a weapon, and at the very least a monk's unarmed strikes include fists, elbows, knees, and feet.


A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet.

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Although someone (probably JJ) has stated the this list was not meant to be exhaustive, so you can, in fact, headbutt someone.

[Coidzor]

It's because brass knuckles got nerfed... not that that is greatly communicated. Ultimate Equipment has the most up to date version, and that one is found on the d20pfsrd. The Advanced Players Guide is out of date and it seems the official SRD too. Good job Paizo. (Atleast the d20pfsrd site keeps track of things like this and updates their site accordingly, for better or worse.)

So yeah, officially, in the newest version brass knuckles don't deal unarmed strike damage. Yay. :smallsigh:

Yeah, they refused to even do an online-only errata of it and restricted it to the forum post by Sean K Reynolds claiming that "they crunched the numbers" and found it to be totes brokens, further leading to the disgust that was felt for Sean K Reynolds as a person by many. Glad they finally put it out in the open even if I disagree with their decision and lack of reasoning for it and would whole-heartedly encourage anyone and everyone to ignore the nerf.


Hey, now, that's no reason to nerf the poor guys even further :smallbiggrin:

On that note, this (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le61?Monkeying-Around) is probably the best ruling regarding monks to come from Paizo.

That is much nicer, yeah.

[Larkas]

That is much nicer, yeah.

I know, right? Now, if monks have access to a friendly crafter, they can finally get up to +8 worth of special abilities for a competitive price. (AoMF (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/wondrousItems.html#_amulet-of-mighty-fists) +5 + slotless (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html) tattoo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation) of AoMF +5 = 150,000 gp, for example).

[Keneth]

"they crunched the numbers"

Paizo's "number crunching" is probably equivalent to someone getting too many lucky crits in a round and scaring an unprepared GM in a local game.

We all know what their official NPCs' stats look like, and if that's the benchmark for character optimization...


Now, if monks have access to a friendly crafter, they can finally get up to +8 worth of special abilities for a competitive price.

Why +8? AoMF doesn't need a +1 to add special abilities.

[Larkas]

Why +8? AoMF doesn't need a +1 to add special abilities.

Oh, didn't realize there was a specific clause for that. Then you could get +10 weapon abilities for 150,000 gp. Still very reasonable, a hypotetical +11 weapon would cost only 121,000 gp to create.

[Keneth]

http://i.imgur.com/SeSwm2r.gif

[grarrrg]

The barbarian even asked if he could use me as a magic weapon. :smalleek: Or a flail, on the count of me being a dwarf,

That depends if you are willingly being a weapon or not.
If you go along with it, a club.
If you are against it but he does it anyway, then you be flail-ing it. :smalltongue:

[Vedhin]

Prove it. Nothing in the rules says that every weapon has a masterwork counterpart, and there is no precedence for a masterwork unarmed strike (since that's the creature itself).

Here (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html). Scroll down to the weapons table. Second entry on the list.
It is a weapon, therefore a masterwork version exists just as any other weapon. There is no rule explicitly barring or enabling a masterwork unarmed strike, just as there is none explicitly barring or enabling a masterwork longsword. Therefore, you can either have masterwork versions of both based on the masterwork items rules, or masterwork versions of neither, given that nothing says masterwork unarmed strikes or masterwork longswords exist.

[Keneth]

It is a weapon, therefore a masterwork version exists just as any other weapon.

That's not actually how it works. There are rules for crafting a masterwork weapon. You can craft a masterwork longsword. You cannot craft a masterwork unarmed strike because it is not crafted, therefore there is no precedence for one.

Like I said, nothing in the rules states that every weapon has a masterwork counterpart, and unarmed strike is the surest example of that. Masterwork transformation doesn't get around that. In fact, it clearly states that it can't.

[Vedhin]

Like I said, nothing in the rules states that every weapon has a masterwork counterpart, and unarmed strike is the surest example of that.

Nothing in the rules states that any specific weapon has a masterwork counterpart either.

[TuggyNE]

That's not actually how it works. There are rules for crafting a masterwork weapon. You can craft a masterwork longsword. You cannot craft a masterwork unarmed strike because it is not crafted, therefore there is no precedence for one.

Sadly, this appears to be correct.


Nothing in the rules states that any specific weapon has a masterwork counterpart either.

Oh? In Magic Weapons there's a set of tables for common melee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#tableCommonMeleeWeapons), uncommon, and ranged masterwork weapons for use as magic weapon bases. Pretty much all weapons are on there, with the notable exception of unarmed strikes and sais.

[Vedhin]

Oh? In Magic Weapons there's a set of tables for common melee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#tableCommonMeleeWeapons), uncommon, and ranged masterwork weapons for use as magic weapon bases. Pretty much all weapons are on there, with the notable exception of unarmed strikes and sais.

Well, you aren't going to find an unarmed strike in a treasure chest, are you? Unless your campaign is a horror campaign or something.

The sai thing is baffling.

[Coidzor]

Oh? In Magic Weapons there's a set of tables for common melee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#tableCommonMeleeWeapons), uncommon, and ranged masterwork weapons for use as magic weapon bases. Pretty much all weapons are on there, with the notable exception of unarmed strikes and sais.

And every weapon that wasn't yet published. XD

But is that "pretty much all" or "all[save for those two]?"

Granted, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with the stance that it isn't RAW, but that one really should just go ahead and depart from the RAW here, whether it be by houserule or homebrew.

[TuggyNE]

Well, you aren't going to find an unarmed strike in a treasure chest, are you? Unless your campaign is a horror campaign or something.

Presumably not. However, there's no indication that the only purpose of those tables is random generation, any more than there's an indication that the list of valid Bane weapons is only for random generation. In both cases, the tables combine valid random loot with a (seemingly) exhaustive list of valid possibilities for custom-made weapons, and I have often used the MW weapon tables in exactly that way, since it's a little simpler than looking up the cost of the weapon, adding 300 or 600 or 6 or whatever, and adding that to the cost of enhancements and properties.

TL/DR: There is very definitely RAW support for exactly the proposition you asserted was not true: that MW longswords etc specifically and explicitly exist, in contrast to unarmed strikes.


And every weapon that wasn't yet published. XD

Yeah, RAW on that is a little funky, so it's possible there's some serious dysfunctions there. However, if e.g. elvencraft longbows make some reference to being made masterwork, then those are fine, and so on; they don't have to be on the table as such, just mentioned in some capacity somewhere.


But is that "pretty much all" or "all[save for those two]?"

All save those two, I think. See above for the similar case of Bane's limitation, where relaxing it allows Humanoid (all) or Outsider (all) weapons, which is pretty grody.


Granted, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with the stance that it isn't RAW, but that one really should just go ahead and depart from the RAW here, whether it be by houserule or homebrew.

I'm not against monks having Nice Things, but allowing masterwork transformation or (worse yet) pre-birth Crafting to get a MW unarmed strike seems like the wrong way to go about it, in much the same way that (warning: hyperbole!) homebrewing a 5000gp item to grant +10 AC, 50% concealment, and a bonus d6/level on all attacks when worn by a Dwarven Defender is the wrong way to go about fixing the problem with that class.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm not against monks having Nice Things, but allowing masterwork transformation or (worse yet) pre-birth Crafting to get a MW unarmed strike seems like the wrong way to go about it, in much the same way that (warning: hyperbole!) homebrewing a 5000gp item to grant +10 AC, 50% concealment, and a bonus d6/level on all attacks when worn by a Dwarven Defender is the wrong way to go about fixing the problem with that class.

You never put ranks in Craft (baby)? You get high enough skill bonus and make a masterwork baby.

[grarrrg]

homebrewing a 5000gp item to grant +10 AC, 50% concealment, and a bonus d6/level on all attacks when worn by a Stalwart Defender is the wrong way to go about fixing the problem with that class.

Fixed that for you.
PF thread, it's Stalwart Defender now. :smallwink:

[Erianerson]

Currently at level 1 my monk does 1d6 per hit, but Brass Knuckles are listed as doing 1d3 damage. Does that mean the brass kuckles would override my 1d6, or get added to it? I can't find much information about how these would work.

[Yanisa]

Currently at level 1 my monk does 1d6 per hit, but Brass Knuckles are listed as doing 1d3 damage. Does that mean the brass kuckles would override my 1d6, or get added to it? I can't find much information about how these would work.

Officially, it overrides. The rules has gone back and forth on this topic. Here's a great answer for some in-depth info (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/87302/brass-knuckles-on-a-monk-in-pathfinder).

Also threadnecro. If you have more questions just start a new thread.