Rogue - Is Sneak Attack worth it?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm mainly considering the class for the skill points. Trying to make an Intelligent and Charismatic mastermind.

However, sneak attack seems sub-par. So many enemies immune to it, having to get them flat footed or flanked, and then going feat heavy to capitalize on it.


Makes me seriously consider going a Strength and Charisma based Martial Rogue instead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You can make it work pretty reliably with the Penetrating Strike ACF (DS) if you're melee. Ranged is a little harder.
I prefer martial rogues myself especially if you have access to ToB. Setting Sun synergizes well with high dex without investing a lot of feats. It makes you useful enough in combat while leaving you the resources to concentrate on other things.

You could also consider making a factotum instead.

[Ravens_cry]

It's fairly campaign dependent, but it can work. It works better in Pathfinder, but a game where you are mostly fighting sneak attackable enemies, and the Ablative Armour isn't doing scientific notion levels of damage, the extra dice can be very nice. Ranged is trickier, but at higher levels, a ring of blinking can give pretty consistent ranged sneak attack, though it should not be your only method.

[TrueJordan]

Seems like you're looking for Swordsage, at least as a few level dip, which will both advance sneak attack and give you a maneuver that allows you to know the enemy flat footed.

If you just want the rougey aspect as a spellcaster, go Beguiler, they're cool as glaciers.

[Techwarrior]

Sneak Attack, like a lot of Core options that aren't in the Spell chapter, is worth it, but you have to do a bit of work to make it good.

The easiest method by far to trigger SA is to flank. You want a melee buddy anyway, since you aren't the greatest at taking hits. As a rogue, if you have a buddy, no matter the source, you can reliably trigger Sneak Attack, and with Penetrating Strike, deal a nice chunk of damage with only half your dice.

You just have to be careful. If your DM likes you, steal the Shadow Strike feat to deal with concealment. Greater Truedeath Crystals, Greater Demolition Crystals, Deathstrike Bracers, wands of the various Strike spells, they're all options for dealing with immunity.

Once you can reliably trigger your SA, and can get it to work reliably, try to boost it. There's at least four different items that specifically grant extra d6's, and there are plenty of ways to get extra to hit or damage. Extra attacks are great, since they let you deal even more damage.

Tome of Battle is very Sneak Attacker friendly. Between the Shadow Hand goodies, maneuvers that make an opponent flat-footed, and Tiger Claw, it's great as a dip or as a major part of your build.

Another hidden gem is Bloodstorm Blade 4. Treating your ranged attacks as melee attacks gets around the 'within 30 ft.' clause, and let's your Rogue deal Sneak Attacks to anything they can see and hit with a thrown weapon.

[OldTrees1]

There are 2 kinds of rogues:

Skillmonkey vs Fistful of d6s
If you prefer the skill side of rogues, then you can safely ignore the sneak attack side.

[weckar]

There is a Martial Stance (the name escapes me) that allows sneak attacks whenever you are adjacent to the same enemy as an ally. No longer a need for direct flanking. Also, with a scout dip and the CF-overlap feat for Scout/Rogue (only requires one level of scout) you get near-full Skirmish and Sneak Attack, which are inherently separate abilities and can be used on the same target as long as you keep moving around. Especially at early-to-mid levels this will allow for high-damage battle joiners as long as one of your allies is already fighting a foe. Add one of the numerous ways to double the length of your 5-foot step and you'll be weaving through the battlefield as a whirlwind of blades.

THAT is how you use a sneak attack.

[Curmudgeon]

If your DM likes you, steal the Shadow Strike feat to deal with concealment.
I'm guessing by "steal" you mean bypass the racial (Krinth) requirement of Shadowstrike. But why try to avoid this requirement? Krinth get a racial bonus to Hide in shadowy conditions, and a racial bonus vs. fear effects which dovetails nicely with the downside of Craven. Since every sneak attack Rogue requires Craven, it's an excellent racial choice. If you've got a Cleric in the party, get them to cast Deeper Darkness on the tip of your blade. Whenever you draw it, you'll supply the concealment which

enables your racial Hide bonus;
satisfies one Hide skill requirement; and
activates the Shadowstrike feat.

[Prince Raven]

I'm mainly considering the class for the skill points. Trying to make an Intelligent and Charismatic mastermind.

Sounds you want to play a Factotum more than a Rogue.

[Techwarrior]

I'm guessing by "steal" you mean bypass the racial (Krinth) requirement of Shadowstrike. But why try to avoid this requirement? Krinth get a racial bonus to Hide in shadowy conditions, and a racial bonus vs. fear effects which dovetails nicely with the downside of Craven. Since every sneak attack Rogue requires Craven, it's an excellent racial choice. If you've got a Cleric in the party, get them to cast Deeper Darkness on the tip of your blade. Whenever you draw it, you'll supply the concealment which

enables your racial Hide bonus;
satisfies one Hide skill requirement; and
activates the Shadowstrike feat.


Nope. I meant the Shadow Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shadow-strike-combat)feat from Pathfinder. Being able to ignore concealment is pretty much necessary for a precision damage dealer, and Pierce Magical Concealment can be really rough to get, being a three feat chain and all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Nope. I meant the Shadow Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shadow-strike-combat)feat from Pathfinder. Being able to ignore concealment is pretty much necessary for a precision damage dealer, and Pierce Magical Concealment can be really rough to get, being a three feat chain and all.

Unless you run into a lot of concealed enemies you're probably better off getting a Scout's Headband (MIC) and saving your feat slots for stuff that's always useful. It's very cheap so you can get more than one if true seeing 1/day doesn't cut it anymore.

[Azoth]

A swordsage dip would nab you Distracting Ember for a round round flanking buddy at the cost of your swift action that round, but if you take it late enough Assassin's Stance makes up for the lost SA progression.

It is pretty easy as a Rogue to throw around 6-8 attacks a round for 15d6+20 sneak attack damage (average damage per strike= 72.5 before other bonuses to damage). If your target isn't dead by the end of your barrage...you did something wrong and are about to pay dearly for it.

[Chronos]

If you intend to play a skillful rogue, then you'll probably try to avoid combat as much as possible anyway. And of course, if you do avoid combat, then Sneak Attack is completely irrelevant. That said, sometimes it comes up whether you like it or not, and when it does, Sneak Attack is what prevents you from being completely useless until it's over.

Incidentally, to the people suggesting to play this class, or play that class: Don't listen to them. Any of them. Skillful rogue-types benefit from having many different classes. Consider three levels in Factotum, one level in Marshal, one level in Incarnate, three in Umbral Disciple, one in Exemplar, etc.

[ace rooster]

I love how the shouting "TOB" has pretty much become a reflex. It is better at pretty much everything I will grant you, but not really relevant to the question.

Sneak attack is a decent way of doing damage with anything down to a toothpick, allowing you to do decent damage in combat without focusing on it. If you pick up weapon finesse then you can almost dump strength entirely, relying solely on SA damage. Not a great plan in an undead heavy campaign, but in most campaigns you will be able to contribute to most combats, whatever your main focus. If you want killing things to be your main focus, then SA is a feat heavy way of doing it, but otherwise SA works well without any feats backing it up.

It depends how you want to play. If you want to play an int based skills character, then SA keeps you from being irrelevant in combat, even without effort. Martial rogue does not have a good damage option out of the box, and power attack loses out on your lower bab, as well as preventing you from using a shield (no proficiency, but a mithral one has no penalty anyway). It seems like martial rogue needs you to give up more than just sneak attack to work effectively, while sneak attack is a bit more situational but free.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I love how the shouting "TOB" has pretty much become a reflex. It is better at pretty much everything I will grant you, but not really relevant to the question.

Sneak attack is a decent way of doing damage with anything down to a toothpick, allowing you to do decent damage in combat without focusing on it. If you pick up weapon finesse then you can almost dump strength entirely, relying solely on SA damage. Not a great plan in an undead heavy campaign, but in most campaigns you will be able to contribute to most combats, whatever your main focus. If you want killing things to be your main focus, then SA is a feat heavy way of doing it, but otherwise SA works well without any feats backing it up.

It depends how you want to play. If you want to play an int based skills character, then SA keeps you from being irrelevant in combat, even without effort. Martial rogue does not have a good damage option out of the box, and power attack loses out on your lower bab, as well as preventing you from using a shield (no proficiency, but a mithral one has no penalty anyway). It seems like martial rogue needs you to give up more than just sneak attack to work effectively, while sneak attack is a bit more situational but free.

People suggested ToB because the OP mentioned that he doesn't want the heavy feat investment required to make SA worth it. With even a minor dip into ToB material you get some basic combat ability without expending several feats. You won't be a damage monster but you'll be able to contribute, which is all that's really needed for a skill-focused rogue.

To make SA combat worthy you need at least Weapon Finesse and Craven, and that's barely. Add to that the TWF feats and you'll barely have any feats left.
You also hamper your main form of damage any time you take a dip that enhances your skillmonkey role but doesn't increase SA progression so it doesn't mesh well with a skill build.

You don't need high damage to contribute to combat. Getting some Setting Sun BFC maneuvers is enough not to be a liability in combat.
You can accomplish that with a 2 level dip into Swordsage. Couple that with Psychic Renewal and Psionic Meditation or Adaptive Style to get around the Swordsage recovery mechanic and you can focus the rest of your build on skills. You can use some of those fighter bonus feats from martial rogue to take Martial Study later on when your IL is higher to expand your options.

Alternatively, take a level of Crusader or Warblade for the better recovery mechanic and spend those bonus feats on Martial Study to get the maneuvers you want.

All your other feats can go towards non-combat functions and you can multiclass freely without crippling yourself.

[cricricri13]

Well as someone else noted, rogues are the skillmonkeys, not just sneackattackers, and have great stealth too. They are a lot of stuff besides those sneaks and if you feel it's not worth it you can allways go double-welding with keen rapiers or scimitars and make a good crit-hitter. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not all about that hab. That class has a lot of features that are worth it, and sneak attack is pretty good most of the time. If you don't like it you can allways go for similar classes like the beguiler, that exchanges some of the class features including the sneak attack for magic using. Or the factotum if you're simply wanting to maximize your skillmonkey power. Or bard, as much as I hate them they can be pretty usefull too. So, the point is: Are YOU convinced? Because if not there are a lot of classes that might suit better for you. But if you are, it's pretty worth it. That's the good thing about D&D, it has classes for almost every kind of player, you just have to think if you like it or not.

[ace rooster]

People suggested ToB because the OP mentioned that he doesn't want the heavy feat investment required to make SA worth it. With even a minor dip into ToB material you get some basic combat ability without expending several feats. You won't be a damage monster but you'll be able to contribute, which is all that's really needed for a skill-focused rogue.

To make SA combat worthy you need at least Weapon Finesse and Craven, and that's barely. Add to that the TWF feats and you'll barely have any feats left.
You also hamper your main form of damage any time you take a dip that enhances your skillmonkey role but doesn't increase SA progression so it doesn't mesh well with a skill build.

You don't need high damage to contribute to combat. Getting some Setting Sun BFC maneuvers is enough not to be a liability in combat.
You can accomplish that with a 2 level dip into Swordsage. Couple that with Psychic Renewal and Psionic Meditation or Adaptive Style to get around the Swordsage recovery mechanic and you can focus the rest of your build on skills. You can use some of those fighter bonus feats from martial rogue to take Martial Study later on when your IL is higher to expand your options.

Alternatively, take a level of Crusader or Warblade for the better recovery mechanic and spend those bonus feats on Martial Study to get the maneuvers you want.

All your other feats can go towards non-combat functions and you can multiclass freely without crippling yourself.

The original question was basically "Should I go martial rogue, or is sneak attack good enough?", to which "TOB!" is not an answer. All good points, but outside the scope of the question.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I prefer martial Rogue to regular, that's for sure. But SA can be made workable, you just need to do a bunch of optimization. Penetrating Strike being the most prominent necessity, Seeking weapon for ranged rogues being likewise required. I don't care about high damage dealing usually though, so the main appeal of a SA rogue for me is Staggering Strike (granted, its effectiveness depends on damage dealt), though I can get that with Martial Rogue by dipping Swordsage for Assassin's Stance and supplementing the piddly 2d6 with Craven if needed.


It's fairly campaign dependent, but it can work. It works better in Pathfinder, but a game where you are mostly fighting sneak attackable enemies, and the Ablative Armour isn't doing scientific notion levels of damage, the extra dice can be very nice. Ranged is trickier, but at higher levels, a ring of blinking can give pretty consistent ranged sneak attack, though it should not be your only method.

Actually it works worse in PF. You may not need items or penetrating strike to sneak attack undead and constructs and such, but actually being able to sneak attack is much harder. They took out a lot of the ways to generate it from 3E. Such as the ring of blinking you happen to mention in this exact same post.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually it works worse in PF. You may not need items or penetrating strike to sneak attack undead and constructs and such, but actually being able to sneak attack is much harder. They took out a lot of the ways to generate it from 3E. Such as the ring of blinking you happen to mention in this exact same post.
I mean for sneak attack in general. For example, taking out a lot of type immunities, like the frankly silly undead immunity. Mister Vampire or Mister Zombie still has joints and tendons and other weak points.
As for blinking, yes, that was BS, but added a few new ways if you know where to look. For example, a Tiefling can take a feat that lets them blind someone they hit with sneak attack for 1 round, with a DC equal to 10 + the sneak attack damage. Nothing says this can't be done at range, so hide and shoot for your first attack and, if they fail, sneak attack the rest of the turn. Rinse, lather, repeat. You can pump up this DC with sniper's goggles, for example, which are a must for ranged sneak attackers anyway.
Doesn't work on all foes, but well worth a feat.
Another method would be a form of smoke or fog and a Goz mask.

[Urpriest]

Rogue gets a lot of skill points, but they don't get many class features that boost skills, and except for Trapfinding itself they all come at level 10+. Rogues have skills to support their Sneak Attack, but if you want a character who is primarily focused on skills then you should pick a class that makes you better at using skills, and that's just not what Rogue is for.

[Red Fel]

Unless I'm forgetting something, Scout gets the same number of skill points as a Rogue, albeit fewer class skills.

Scout also has Skirmish, which has been mentioned, and is a form of precision damage similar to Sneak Attack. But more importantly, with the Swift Hunter feat, you're able to use Skirmish damage on favored enemies who might otherwise be immune to precision damage, such as Constructs or Undead.

So that's one solution. Take Scout/Ranger, take favored enemy (common enemy your DM likes that's immune to SA), take Swift Hunter, go to town.

Now, you said you wanted an intelligent and charismatic mastermind. (I assume you meant the character traits and not the ability scores, given that Int and Cha are not necessarily as valuable to a Rogue as they might be to other classes.) You can still do that with a Scout/Ranger, in many ways better, if you're willing to refluff the classes. Scout, for example, isn't necessarily someone who moves ahead of the army, or someone who sneaks through underbrush; it's someone who is extremely keen-eyed and perceptive, who maneuvers (both physically and mentally) around his enemies looking for weak spots. Ranger isn't automatically someone who stalks through the forests hunting large pigs or orcs; he's someone who studies a particular style of combat, and focuses his training on dealing with particular enemies. As a bonus, your animal companion could always be a fluffy white cat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RightHandCat).

[Telonius]

If you just want the skill points, don't care much about sneak attack, and are concerned about being feat-starved, you'll probably be very interested in the Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant from Unearthed Arcana. It trades Sneak Attack for Fighter Bonus Feats.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If you just want the skill points, don't care much about sneak attack, and are concerned about being feat-starved, you'll probably be very interested in the Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) variant from Unearthed Arcana. It trades Sneak Attack for Fighter Bonus Feats.

"Martial Rogue" is the common forum name for a "feat rogue," btw. OP mentioned it right in the first post.

[Techwarrior]

Unless you run into a lot of concealed enemies you're probably better off getting a Scout's Headband (MIC) and saving your feat slots for stuff that's always useful. It's very cheap so you can get more than one if true seeing 1/day doesn't cut it anymore.

Really? Let's say I fight 4 encounters a day, like the DMG 'expects.'

Today, while on my Adventurous JourneyTM, our fourth level adventuring party encounters:
An Ogre with a Riding Dog companion that wants to collect a toll. From our hides. (CR 4 Encounter)
A 3rd Level Kobold Focused Illusionist and his 4 Kobold Warrior buddies that have been tracking us down since we ruined their thug ring, trickery, and lies in town. (Also a CR 4 Encounter)
2 Wights, and a group of 4 Zombies (CR 6)
A pair of rabid, hungry wolves looking for food in our camp at night. (CR 2)

In three out of these four encounters, the Rogue gets to sit out, unable to apply their Sneak Attack damage natively.
The Kobold Illusionist has enough castings to give most of the kobolds Blur, and if it gets desperate, it can cast Obscuring Mist to give everyone concealment.
The undead encounter is undead, and can't be SA'ed natively, although if our Rogue has Penetrating Strike (melee) or Death's Ruin (if ranged) then they still get a bit of bonus damage.
The wolves attacked at night. You get concealment for that unless the attacker has low-light vision or darkvision.

Now, what is your Rogue's plan for dealing with the day with his Scout's Headband (which costs over half of his WBL) instead of the Shadow Strike feat.

This is just at fourth level. It gets so much harder for a Rogue the farther in levels they go, as the options for gaining Concealment, or flat out immunity to Sneak Attack increase.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Really? Let's say I fight 4 encounters a day, like the DMG 'expects.'

...

Now, what is your Rogue's plan for dealing with the day with his Scout's Headband (which costs over half of his WBL) instead of the Shadow Strike feat.

This is just at fourth level. It gets so much harder for a Rogue the farther in levels they go, as the options for gaining Concealment, or flat out immunity to Sneak Attack increase.

For 2. you don't even need SA. A level 3 kobold wizard will fall to a stiff breeze, especially if he wasted all his spell slots on buffs and thus has nothing left to cast. The fight will be mildly annoying because of miss chances but the wizard pretty much blew everything he had on buffs. If you have a Scout's Headband you're good but you can do without it.
For 3. If you're a melee rogue with SA you get Penetrating Strike. The same way a druid gets Natural Spell, only it doesn't cost you a feat and only trades away a minor class feature.
For 4. Get a light source. A Sunrod costs 2gp. Have one of your party casters spent a cantrip on Light if you're really badly prepared. That's significantly cheaper than a feat slot.

Your examples all assume a badly build/ill prepared rogue. The only one that should give any trouble at all is the one with the kobolds, and there's ways to get around the Blur. UMD a scroll, use splash weapons or have your party casters take care of it.

At higher levels total concealment will become more common so you'll need something to deal with that anyway. And at that point the cost for an additional Scout's Headband is a minor speed bump. Almost everything else can be dealt with by Penetrating Strike.

If your DM throws concealment into every encounter, get the feat. But that's hardly universal.

[Person_Man]

Depending on your build, it might be worth taking one or two levels of Rogue for the large amount of 1st level Skill points, 1d6 Sneak Attack, and maybe Evasion. (Depending on how common Reflex Saves are in your game, and whether or not you have the resources to get it via a ring or Feats instead). In particular, 1d6 Sneak Attack is all you need to qualify for the Staggering Strike and Craven feats, which are a strong addition to most melee builds, and Able Learner can help a lot on your Skill Ranks.

I have and would play builds like Rogue/Binder/Knight of the Sacred Seal, Rogue/Totemist/Ironsoul Forgemaster, Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper, Rogue/Cleric/Landforged Walker, and so on.