Would a DM ban or allow these uses of wish?

[RoboEmperor]

1. Spend the next 145 days crafting an efreeti bottle and then use it everyday until you get the 3 wishes or insane efreeti. If insane efreeti, spend another 145 days crafting another efreeti bottle. If you get 3 wishes, use them to create +10 enhancement bonus non-epic weapons/armor/equipment. What about epic gear?

2. Planar Bind an efreeti, pay the efreeti equal amount of gp for it to use wish to create an item. For example, pay 200,000gp for it to use one of its wishes to craft a +10 enhancement bonus weapon, pay the efreeti 100,000 for a +10 enhancement bonus armor/shield, etc.

3. Gate in an efreeti/solar to use its wish only to replicate spells you need during crafting.

4. Do you people have other methods of using wish other than using it directly yourself that a DM would allow?

[Vogonjeltz]

Enhancement levels are a game concept to represent an abstraction. As a DM, I would require the player to phrase their wish in character. That is where the DM interpretation comes into play.

[RoboEmperor]

Enhancement levels are a game concept to represent an abstraction. As a DM, I would require the player to phrase their wish in character. That is where the DM interpretation comes into play.

1. "I wish for you to craft me a (insert specific weapon here) of ___, ___, and ___" or "with the ___, ___, and ___ enhancements"
2. "I'll pay you 200,000gp if you craft me an (insert specific weapon here) of ___, ___, and ___"
3. Since I gated the guy I have full control so I just make him use wish to duplicate a spell for me when I craft, or create a scroll/wand/staff

[weckar]

Slight technicality, but for most item types the total bonus cannot exceed +5. Carry on the conversation, although I fail to see why you would use a wish to obtain a wish.

[RoboEmperor]

Slight technicality, but for most item types the total bonus cannot exceed +5. Carry on the conversation, although I fail to see why you would use a wish to obtain a wish.

I know they can't exceed +5, but I want to create an item of:
+2 Flaming Burst
+2 Icy Burst
+2 Shocking Burst
+1 Spell Storing
+1 Thundering
+2 Wounding

which totals +10

I'm not wishing to obtain a wish, I'm wishing the efreeti to use his wish as a spell to create an item, not some sort of twisted backfiring thingy ^^

[Deophaun]

Enhancement levels are a game concept to represent an abstraction. As a DM, I would require the player to phrase their wish in character. That is where the DM interpretation comes into play.
Tordek disagrees!

“My armor? +3 adamantine light fortification full plate. I wouldn’t leave home without it.”
—Tordek

[weckar]

I know they can't exceed +5, but I want to create an item of:
+2 Flaming Burst
+2 Icy Burst
+2 Shocking Burst
+1 Spell Storing
+1 Thundering
+2 Wounding

which totals +10


As someone with a degree in mathematics, I have to inform you that +10 does in fact exceed +5.

[RoboEmperor]

As someone with a degree in mathematics, I have to inform you that +10 does in fact exceed +5.

"In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. "

[weckar]

I stand corrected. I must be confusing the rules with armour or some other item class. To be fair, though, the wording in your last post was no less than internally contradictory.

[RoboEmperor]

I stand corrected. I must be confusing the rules with armour or some other item class. To be fair, though, the wording in your last post was no less than internally contradictory.

Rules say you can't exceed a +5 enhancement bonus, so I thought you meant that I was trying to make a +10 weapon and you were pointing out that you can at most get a +5 weapon. :P

[weckar]

Go with that. It makes me sound a lot smarter.

Also, I found a slight flaw in your wish, and as a DM I would gladly grant it :smallamused:

[RoboEmperor]

Go with that. It makes me sound a lot smarter.

Also, I found a slight flaw in your wish, and as a DM I would gladly grant it :smallamused:

Please do tell so I can amend it D:

[weckar]

Well, currently you specifically wish for the weapon to be crafted, so it being stolen or otherwise illegally obtained is out. It being animated, sentient, cursed, of brittle/unusable material, of inappropriate size, or simply unfashionable is not.

[RoboEmperor]

Well, currently you specifically wish for the weapon to be crafted, so it being stolen or otherwise illegally obtained is out. It being animated, sentient, cursed, of brittle/unusable material, of inappropriate size, or simply unfashionable is not.

I was hoping that
1. Freeing the efreeti from its prison would shower me with overwhelming gratitude and not do something like that.
2. I'm buying stuff from him like a merchant so he wouldn't pull a fast one on me and if he does and I catch it upon inspection, I can refuse to pay him.
XD

But my main concern is that DMs would punish players for using wish loops, etc. and forever invoking the "NPCs can break it better than you." so the purpose of this post is would the DM accept those methods I mentioned as non-abusive, etc. and not try to screw me over :P

Also, although my sorcerer would not have enough intelligence/wisdom to ask the efreeti to craft my item perfectly, I was hoping my char's high charisma would instead make it love him/her and be nice to him/her to some degree

[weckar]

Alignment: Always lawful evil
An efreeti will screw you over with 'exact wording clauses' whenever possible. It is in their nature. In as much that it is in their nature to make such tampering not immediately detectable and to ask for payment upfront.

In general, Efreet should be a last resort for wishes and nothing less. It also has both Invisibility and Permanent Image SLAs, so dealing with an unbound efreeti will always end up with them not actually being there once the **** hits the fan.

[TuggyNE]

I know they can't exceed +5, but I want to create an item of:
+2 Flaming Burst
+2 Icy Burst
+2 Shocking Burst
+1 Spell Storing
+1 Thundering
+2 Wounding

which totals +10

So it does, but unfortunately all magic weapons and armor must first have at least a straight numeric +1 enhancement bonus, so you'll have to take either thundering or spell storing off.

[weckar]

Is that how it works? I've always been better at lore than rules, but I always assumed that a magical property implied an equal numerical enhancement bonus. So I'm probably a very confused DM with very lucky players.

[RoboEmperor]

So it does, but unfortunately all magic weapons and armor must first have at least a straight numeric +1 enhancement bonus, so you'll have to take either thundering or spell storing off.

I thought being masterwork enough to fulfill the +1 thing. After a 2nd reading through the rules though I think you are right. Oh well, good bye wounding. I'll find another +1 thing to fill it. Spell-storing and thundering are more important than wounding imo.

[John Longarrow]

someonenoone11,

While I am away from my books at the moment, I believe wish has a limit of 25,000gp value for items wished for. If you exceed that value, you don't get anything. That being said, talk it over with your DM FIRST. Wish is ment to be rather broken, but DMs can also make sure they dont unduly affect their games.

[HammeredWharf]

someonenoone11,

While I am away from my books at the moment, I believe wish has a limit of 25,000gp value for items wished for. If you exceed that value, you don't get anything.

That's only for nonmagical items.

[weckar]

The 25k limit only holds for nonmagical items. By RAW, you should be perfectly fine to wish for this and have it happen. In effect, the slightest slip of the tongue will turn it into your worst nightmare (aka a soulbound blade of the bloodfued. Have fun with that.)

[qwertyu63]

someonenoone11,

While I am away from my books at the moment, I believe wish has a limit of 25,000gp value for items wished for. If you exceed that value, you don't get anything. That being said, talk it over with your DM FIRST. Wish is ment to be rather broken, but DMs can also make sure they dont unduly affect their games.

Having mine, that limit only applies to non-magical items. Magical items just carry a steeper XP cost. I know that's stupid, but that's the way it is.

[RoboEmperor]

Unless the wish is from an efreeti or some other monster, wish shouldn't backfire imo. I remember reading a post on wizards.com that talked about this and it can only backfire if the player tries to do something not written in the book. If the player treats it as a spell, then no backfire, he can just pay the 5000xp + double XP to create whatever item he wanted.

The methods I've listed here are ways to lessen the XP cost of wish, but it seems like a general consensus here that the answer is if you don't cast wish yourself, the DM will screw you over. There is no way to lessen the XP cost.

[weckar]

But, in the situation stipulated, the wish DOES come from a creature. Also, the xp cost of creating such an item (x2, +5000) would create a rift in time itself you'd go so far back, keeping in mind that exp costs cannot remove levels so you would have to go a while without leveling up.

[Graypairofsocks]

Rules say you can't exceed a +5 enhancement bonus, so I thought you meant that I was trying to make a +10 weapon and you were pointing out that you can at most get a +5 weapon. :P

Actually you can exceed a +5 enhancement bonus although that is only with epic magic items (which also don't have a max limit on enchantments), but your DM might not allow you to wish for them because I think they were intended for loot at epic levels.

[Captnq]

1. Spend the next 145 days crafting an efreeti bottle and then use it everyday until you get the 3 wishes or insane efreeti. If insane efreeti, spend another 145 days crafting another efreeti bottle. If you get 3 wishes, use them to create +10 enhancement bonus non-epic weapons/armor/equipment. What about epic gear?

No.


2. Planar Bind an efreeti, pay the efreeti equal amount of gp for it to use wish to create an item. For example, pay 200,000gp for it to use one of its wishes to craft a +10 enhancement bonus weapon, pay the efreeti 100,000 for a +10 enhancement bonus armor/shield, etc.
No.


3. Gate in an efreeti/solar to use its wish only to replicate spells you need during crafting.
Get an artificer. have him just pretend to have the spells.


4. Do you people have other methods of using wish other than using it directly yourself that a DM would allow?

Yes.


- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK (3.0)
- PLAYER’S HANDBOOK 1 (3.5)
Universal
Level: Envy Domain 9, Sorcerer/Wizard 9, Wu Jen 9
Components: V, XP
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: See text
Target, Effect, or Area: See text
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you. Even wish, however, has its limits. A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
o Editor: This ability is rarely worth it, as it is extremely situational, and rarely worth the XP cost, furthermore, it is even less likely that you will have wish prepared when not trying to use it for a more powerful effect.
• Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
o Editor: Again, rarely worth it.
• Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
o Editor: This is useful if you’ve banned both illusion and evocation and therefore have no other access to contingency. Best for focused specialists (or dare I say it, focused specialist Incantatrices)
• Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
o Editor: 5000 XP for a 5th level spell? Uh, how screwed do you have to be to fall back to using a wish for a 5th level spell? The answer: VERY.
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
o Editor: Some effects can only be undone with wish. Therefore it’s good at getting rid of them.
• Create a non-magical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
o Editor: Meh, I don’t generally feel that 1 XP is worth 5 GP. If you plan on creating valuable items, this is hardly the way to go about it. When this comes in handy is when you absolutely, positively need to create a bridge. Another use is to use wish to repair something that is broken. While a new city wall would cost far more then 25,000 gp, putting a pile of rubble of recently knocked down city wall back together would fall under this use. If you need to put a price tag on it, calculate how much the labor costs would be to perform the repair project. No repairs greater then 25,000 gp should be allowed.
• Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
o Editor: Sometimes you just want to get a magic item done RIGHT NOW. A good rule of thumb is using a wish can reduce the creation time of a magic item to one day. Normally not that important, but when making something that will take 100 days in game, you just might want to shave a few months off. That said, a DM is much more likely to allow you to have your +6 belt of magnificence if you get all the parts together (ie spend the 100,000 gp) and just slam them together with a wish. A kind GM can skip the gathering of magical thingies and simply have the required amount of gold disappear. If you are speeding up creation time only, then xp and gp costs are normal.
o Editor: A wish can rearrange magical powers from one item to another. For example, if you have four magic swords, each with a different special ability and want to transfer all the powers over to the same sword, It can do that, provided that the new sword doesn’t exceed the value of the combined cost of all four swords. Four +2 swords is worth 16,000 gp, but one +5 sword with 3 levels of special powers is worth 128,000 gp. As a DM, you can hand wave that and allow any combo you want, but it’s suggested that you use the above cost guidelines. The DM has final word on what the end product is and if any of the original items survive. That said, it should only cost 5,000 xp and nothing more. The wish is just restructuring magic, not creating something new.
o Editor: If you wish to add powers to a magic item, then it’s simply the 5,000 xp and double the XP cost of the additional power. No additional time. No additional gold.
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
o Editor: Can be good IF your DM rules that you can cast the wishes out of immediate succession. Else, go for a tome instead. A kind DM can simply rule that inherent bonuses do stack, because they are instantaneous. Regardless, he should enforce the +5 maximum, no matter what. This makes it easier for players to use tomes and wishes in combination to achieve +5 to any given stat. For the record, the official stats that can be thus increased are Cha, Con, Dex, Int, Str, Wis
o Editor: Possible other stats that could be subject to inherent bonuses are: Base Attack Bonus, any Damage Reduction the caster has or DR 1/-, Initiative, Movement (5’ increments), Natural Armor Bonus, and Skills (A kind DM would allow you to increase a skill by 4 points per wish, maximum of +20.) Any attempt to wish for more damage or improved to hit should increase the corresponding base stat. A wish for more hit points would increase the target’s con score. Any wish for more spells per day should increase the mental base stat that is used by that spellcaster. If a spontaneous caster wishes for more spells known, It is recommended that it grant the caster a feat instead. There are several that give spontaneous casters extra known spells. Use whatever is appropriate for your campaign. However, if you do allow this, the players might wish for more feats. If you allow this, it’s recommended that you cannot wish more then five extra feats, and you must qualify for the feats you wish for.
o Editor: In theory, one could wish an inherent bonus onto an object, but it would have to be an object that had a stat on it. You cannot wish a given magic item an inherent bonus that grants more uses per day, that would fall under wishing a magic item had a new power. You cannot wish a magic item that grants an inherent bonus to the wearer. The inherent bonus is for the object alone. You could wish up the stats of an intelligent magic item. You could wish an object had more hit points, or improved toughness. You could wish a reduction of the penalties or limitations of an object. A suit of armor could have reduced armor check penalty. You could wish a 5% reduction of arcane spell failure. You could change the alignment or class restrictions on an object. You could remove the curse off an object (DM’s discretion). It is tempting to allow a caster to add inherent bonuses to a weapon’s to hit and damage, or the armor class of a suit of armor, but that is not recommended. The item doesn’t use to hit or armor class bonuses. Those bonuses are used by the user, and thus hardly qualifies as an “Inherent Bonus”. However, it’s your campaign. All of these uses of wish falls outside the normal use to the spell, so my only suggestion is to carefully write out these new uses and make sure your player’s agree. The specifics are left up to the apt pupil.
o Editor: The other consideration is what if someone wishes for a level in a class. A wish cannot restore the level lost from being raised from the dead. This would imply that a wish cannot just give you a level. However, consider the possibility of a wish transferring XPs that could be used only for a specific class. For example, you could get a ring of wishes and ask to be a better fighter. The wish would then grant you 5,000 xps towards being a fighter. If you use this, then I suggest the following limitations. First, you would have to be equal to, or a lower character level then the one casting the wish. In the case of a ring of wishes, you would have to be 17th level or lower. Second, no more then 25,000 xps could be transferred in this method. Third, the xps have to go for a specific class and that class only. It can be a base class, a prestige class, or a monster HD, but it must be specified when the wish is cast, or the wish will pick something. Then the character benefiting from the wish is stuck with taking that class next level, like it or not. Furthermore, they cannot spend xps on anything else until that level is obtained. No item creation, no spells with xp cost. Nothing. Once you start down the road, you have to see it to the end. Having play tested this, I recommend caution. You should discuss it with your players, as they may not like the idea of someone finding a ring of three wishes and fast tracking past the other players a level or two, depending on when it’s found.
o Editor: Finally, there is the issue of balance. I recommend that for every +1 inherent bonus to anything a player has, you add 25,000 gp to his total wealth for the purpose of determining wealth by level. A 5th level character should not have 15 wishes boosting his stats, even if by some luck he managed to find that many rings. But a 20th level character having 750,000 gp in wishes is not unreasonable, and he should have a corresponding reduction in available equipment.
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
o Editor: This is what Clerics are for. That said it CAN be useful for healing a large group, or if the cleric is down, for example. When all else fails, this can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, but at a very hefty price.
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
o Editor: Good only if you’re reviving the cleric and you have NO other means of doing so. Now, the upside is, if you use a wish to bring someone back, they return back in one round and with full hit points. It’s important to note that that Revivify is a 5th level cleric spell. Since wish can imitate any 5th level cleric spell, if you are wishing someone back to life within one round of death, use Revivify instead, so that the target doesn’t suffer from any level loss. They’re be at -1 hit point and unable to engage in combat immediately, but assuming the battle is going well and that death was a fluke, it might be the preferred use.
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
o Editor: If you can cast still spell, chances are you have other spells at your disposal that can do the same thing. That said, maybe you just want to skip to the end of an adventure and jump past a series of death traps, this will do it. Some DMs might see that as “cheating”, by wishing yourself right next to your target. It’s recommended that you use wish as a last resort. Make every attempt to locate the target and at least narrow down the possible locations before you use a wish to “Scry-and-Die”. That said, the part about “regardless of local conditions” bares some attention. That means you teleport without error right to where you want to be. If you want to be in solid rock, the spell can make a small pocket for you to land in. If you want to land in an antimagic field, the wish will work where teleport would fail.
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
o Editor: Another one that is potentially good if you have it prepared, which is damn unlikely. 5k XP can be worth un-killing a partner who natural 1 died. If he does it twice, smack him.
• If you are playing with dead magic zones or wild magic zones, a wish can expand, or shrink said zone by 10 feet per wish.
o Editor: There is one other use requires DM approval: Metamagic. If someone else is casting a spell, a wish should be able to modify that spell. The question is, how much? If a wish can create an 8th level spell, then it should be able to add 8 levels of metamagic onto an existing spell someone else is currently casting, right? That would be INSANE. I recommend a flat 5 levels of metamagic can be added to any spell that someone else is casting. You cannot add on any metamagic that the spell already has when cast. You cannot stack these metamagic levels with a second wish. The last wish cast takes effect and any previous wishes are lost. That said, you can apply any valid metamagic feat that exists without changing the casting time of the spell, the caster level, or the spell level. You cannot add sudden metamagic or metamagic rods to a spell. Only valid metamagic feats from the metamagic feat section.
o Editor: Wish is the ultimate counter. You simply have the target offending spell fail. In effect, you create a temporary dead magic area, so the spell has no chance of taking effect.
• Casting wish to become a new kind of creature, with full access to all extraordinary, spell-like, and supernatural abilities, while retaining Intelligence, memory, and personality, falls under the “wishing for greater effects” rules in the spell description. While this is the quickest method of transformation and potentially the least expensive, it has substantial risks. The DM may, for instance, require the spellcaster to make a Spellcraft check. For every point by which the check result exceeds 20, the transforming character gains a 5% chance to have the goal creature’s abilities. The transforming character must roll for each ability. For instance, if the spellcaster gets a 28 on her Spellcraft check, the transforming character has a 40% chance to have any of the goal creature’s abilities. He rolls for each special attack or special quality, and each time he gets a 61 or higher on d%, he gains that ability. It is entirely possible to fail every roll and gain the characteristics of a goal creature but none of the creature’s special attacks or special qualities. Wish is expensive (a cost of at least 26,530 gold pieces) and may not work. Since characters of lower than 8th level shouldn’t be able to afford this method of transformation, a DM who uses this ritual it is setting a minimum level at which transformation can occur. If the DM wishes to discourage transformation, she can enforce the Spellcraft check described above. If so, she must inform her players that transforming via wish may not grant all the special abilities and special qualities of the goal creature.
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. Such a wish gives the DM the opportunity to fulfill your request without fulfilling it completely. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment). For example, wishing for a staff of the magi might get you instantly transported to the presence of the staff’s current owner. Wishing to be immortal could get you imprisoned in a hidden extra-dimensional space (as by an imprisonment spell), where you could “live” indefinitely. Duplicated spells allow saves and spell resistance as normal (but save DCs are for 9th-level spells).
Editor (Player Only): At this point we enter the realm of DM fiat. The DM will grant one of three effects:
1: Exactly what we wanted: This is the best option for us, as it gives us what we want, sadly, unless we are very inglorious about the effects of our wish, it is also the least likely.
2: A literal granting of the wish: For most DMs this is the most likely situation we as players will have to deal with if we attempt to abuse wish. It will be the focus of our guide. In a properly worded wish, this will be identical to possibility 1.
3: A partial fulfillment of the wish: This is the worst possible effect. The wish simply will not do what we want. This option is less likely than possibility 2, unless we seriously overreach ourselves. As players it will be our goal to avoid this possibility.
The most likely circumstance we will experience is a literal interpretation of the Wish. As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for. But lets look at exact how that might be overcome. I will be using a fairly standard wish: I wish I had one million gold pieces. To avoid a negative effect (yes, a failure is a negative effect, the spell costs 5000 XP) we must first establish the parameters of the spell: Where, When, What, and How.
Where: It is essential that we explicitly state where we want our effect to occur. This is especially important when we creating something or conjuring something. Take our example: I wish I had a million gold pieces. One million gold is going to weigh, by the PHB, 10 tons, and take up, by the Draconomicon, approximately 83 1/3 cubic feet of space. How does this affect our wish? Well, most sinisterly if that much gold happens to land on top of us, we had best pray that we have a contingency spell in place to prevent our imminent squishy death. Furthermore, the transportation of the gold is going to be a major factor. Even the largest bags of holding are far from capable of transporting such an amount of gold, so either you’ll need to wish for the gold to appear in the secure place you’d be wanting to transport it to (Such as your tower, if you’re a wizard you should have one), or to have a portable hole.
Example rewording: I wish that I had one million gold pieces in my possession, located in the basement of my tower.
However, we are seriously overreaching this wish (by 975,000 gold to be precise) and therefore we do not know where this gold is coming from, we only have specified that we wish to possess it. If it perhaps came from the personal trove of a CR 50 dragon, we are, as we say in the business, screwed. Therefore it is necessary to specify not only where in the end location, but the starting location. It is best in this case to specify the creation of the gold (although this will likely get the partial fulfillment option, gaining us only 25,000, I’ll discuss workarounds below).
Example rewording: I wish for one million gold pieces to be created in the basement of my tower.
When: It’s a somewhat trivial parameter, however it is sometimes necessary to indicate a temporal aspect. If you are wishing to obtain something, or cause something to occur, the DM could simply have it occur far later in the future, thus making it a moot point. For example, if we wished for a mortal creature to die, the GM could rule that the wish does nothing, other than assuring that that creature eventually dies, possibly of natural causes. Therefore it is sometimes necessary to establish something like “ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell.” (One should not use “after the completion of this spell,” as that could be seen as paradoxical, the spell not being fully completed until after the gold has appeared, thus causing the spell to go on infinitely, unable to ever complete).
Example rewording: I wish for one million gold pieces to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell.
What: This is a surprisingly easy parameter to detail, it is mostly important to be exact and unambiguous in what we want to occur, and to realize exactly what we want to occur. For example, in our above wish, in game terms, we want to obtain 1,000,000 GP. However, by stating gold pieces, we open ourselves up to ambiguity. A piece could be the size of a pinhead. So a closer statement would be that we want 1,000,000 gold coins. Once again, we run into the troubling question how big is a coin? So a less ambiguous version of what we want is 10 tons of gold minted as coins. If your DM is a **** however, you might end up with two 5 ton coins. So an even better approximation of what we want is 10 tons of gold minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders.
Example rewording: I wish for 10 tons of gold, minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders, to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds after the completed speaking of this spell
How: This is a somewhat ambiguous parameter, but it helps us wrap up our other parameters nicely. It primarily concerns measurements, sources (see where above), and over all preciseness. This is the parameter in which we ‘exactify’ our wording. The most important aspect of this parameter is providing definitions of measurements. The phrase “As per my understanding of the quantity/quality x” is our absolute best friend in this case. This prevents the DM from using the timeless perspective argument (one day in the eyes of god is as a million years to mortals).
Example rewording: I wish for 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the quantity ton and the quality gold, minted as solid 1 inch wide, 1/10 inch high cylinders, as per my understanding of the quantities cylinder and inch, to be created in the basement of my tower ten seconds, as per my understanding of the quantity seconds, after the completed speaking of this spell, as per my understanding of completed speaking.
However, we are still vastly overreaching ourselves, and our DM may simply rule that only 25,000 GP appears, as that is the guideline of the spell. Therefore it is necessary that we reevaluate our What and Where parameters. We do not really care if the spell creates the gold, we only care that we obtain said gold. Thus we could try to simply transmute the gold, or to transport it from elsewhere. I personally recommend the former (the epic level handbooks says that we can get many tons of adamantine when attempting to create an adamantine golem, which is worth more than gold, so there’s a precedent), however, for the sake of example let us choose the former, leaving the following example wish:
Example rewording: I wish that 10 tons of pure gold, as per my understanding of the quantity ton and quality gold, be transported from deposits of ore unclaimed as property by sentient entities, as per my understanding of the qualities unclaimed, property, sentient, and entity, to the basement of my tower, as per my understanding of ‘basement of my tower,’ and be minted as solid cylinders one inch in diameter and one tenth inch in height, as per my understanding of the quantity inch and of the qualities solid and cylinder, ten seconds from the completed speaking of this spell, as per my understanding of the quantity second and quality completed speaking.
Which leaves us with one final problem. What if we misspeak? Any DM at this point may in desperation have you make a skill check to pronounce it clearly, or have you speak it out loud for real and hope you sneeze. A cruel DM might say if you stop to take a breath, that’s the end of the wish. To avoid this, not only should you have your wish worded as above, but you should take the time to write it out, clearly and labeled at the top, “WISH CONTRACT”. No other writing should be on it. Then, if you feel the wish is too long to be read aloud, you should hold the wish contract in your hand and wish the following: “I wish the wish contract that I hold in my hand, as per my understanding of my hand and what a wish contract is, is fulfilled as the writing reads, as per my understanding of what writing and reading is.” If that doesn’t cover everything, I don’t know what will.
Editor (DM Only): So the above section is some serious rules raping, as you may have noticed. May I suggest the following: Wish sages. To use wish sages is rather simple. A wish sage is someone with a high knowledge skill in Arcana or spellcraft, depending on your point of view of how the process works. The players makes a request, and the wish sage writes out a contract to fulfill it, based on his knowledge of wishes. He rolls against a DC set by how difficult the wish is. Getting a 50,000 gp object would be a DC 25 check. A million gold pieces might be DC 50. The roll is in secret, then he gets paid his fee and hands a wish contract to the player. The player says, “I wish this wish contract fulfilled.” Poof. The wish contracts vanishes and the wish is fulfilled depending on how well the sage rolled. Most sages won’t fill out suicidal contracts, but players are fine to roll on their own. This way, it gets rid of all the annoying crap while allowing the players a chance to get lucky, instead of just trying to abuse the system.
Material Component: When a wish duplicates a spell with a Material Component that costs more than 10,000 gp, you must provide that component.
XP Cost: The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

[ace rooster]

Given that crafting the bottle requires summon monster, I would rule that it would not be happy about you letting it out, as you put it there. While I would grant you the wishes, I would be doing my upmost to make sure that it did not work out well for you. Expect diminutive longswords and the like.

Binding would be very situation specific, but in general I regard it as a bad idea to bind powerful creatures. Planar ally I regard similarly, as solars have more important things to do than be item shops for mortals. Anything can be overruled by the power of plot, and if the PCs need an item that plot detemines is not available, then using binding or ally saves the DM coming up with another dungeon sidequest. These spells work well if it makes the DMs job easier.

I would allow this use of gate, but you have to remember that you require a casting every day, and each casting costs 26980gp (90*22 +5000*5. The fact that the solar does not have to pay the xp cost does not stop it being part of the spell, so affecting the price). The solar would probably just save everyone time and money by making it himself and just charging you the market price.

Wish has any power the DM says it does, hence can advance the plot if it is stalling, or cause any effect that does not damage the plot. It will never be able to derail the plot, or trivialise the work the DM has done on an adventure. The same goes for planar binding and ally.

[Urpriest]

It's my opinion that Efreet, as CR 8 monsters, shouldn't have access to Wish in the first place. So ideally I would have come up with an alternative "lesser Wish" that this guy could grant. The rest of the procedure would then be find, but chances are it wouldn't give you such a powerful magic item.

Otherwise, it would depend on the optimization level of the campaign. Wish is the sort of thing you want a gentleman's agreement to handle.

[weckar]

But the whole Wish Granting thing is basically their Shtick! Screw CR on this one.

[Urpriest]

But the whole Wish Granting thing is basically their Shtick! Screw CR on this one.

Granting wishes isn't the same as granting Wishes.

But anyway, this is off-topic.

In general, I would be ok with a player doing 2. and 3., although in the case of 2. I might institute a general houserule that Wish can't make items worth more than 25,000gp even if they're magic. In both cases I'd expect some decent roleplay and social skill use as befits dealing with a powerful being with specialized interests, but I definitely wouldn't say "he's LE, you will inevitably get screwed" because "evil ultimately screws you" is a bad roleplaying precedent that encourages players to play evil characters immaturely and rules out "lesser of two evils" types of plots.

1....first, I would correct any player making this statement by saying that they're talking about equivalent enhancement bonus, because that's a dangerous sort of imprecision that, as later posts in this thread demonstrate, is often tied to other common but dumb misunderstandings like not knowing that you need at least +1 magic enhancement bonus on weapon before adding other effects. But second, it depends on whether this campaign's optimization level allows free-ish Wishes and allows Wishes to create arbitrary magic items. I wouldn't treat it differently from Planar Binding an Efreeti, though since the item is based on Summon Monster I'd probably let you omit the "good negotiation and roleplay" requirement since in general Summoning doesn't require negotiation.

[Cruiser1]

It's my opinion that Efreet, as CR 8 monsters, shouldn't have access to Wish in the first place.
I don't mind Efreet being able to grant Wishes. What's broken is that (Sp) and (Su) abilities don't require expensive material and XP costs. Make Wish always require 5000+ XP, and many problems in the game get fixed. You can Planar Bind or Gate in Efreet, Solars, etc, but it can't Wish for you unless it has 5000 XP saved up, which it probably doesn't. Currently there's nothing stopping an Efreeti from using its Wish spell-like to create a +1000000000 sword, or a magic item granting infinite free Wishes. With that kind of power, every level 9 Wizard, or the set of Efreet in the City of Brass, should have conquered the multiverse by now.

In the epic adventure Kerlith's Tower (from ELH), you can rescue an Efreeti from a Mirror of Life Trapping. In return he's willing to show you around the City of Brass, or grant you one Wish. Why only one wish, when you saved him from eternal imprisonment, and he's obviously not granting any other Wishes that day? It seems like that Efreeti can't grant any more than one even if he wanted to, because he only has 5K and not 10K XP saved up. Having (Sp) and (Su) abilities still require expensive meterial and XP costs seems to be RAI (which is more balanced and less broken). For example, it should be fine to Shapechange into a Zodar and use its Wish (Su) ability, but it should cost you 5000 XP to activate it.

[Seer_of_Heart]

1. Spend the next 145 days crafting an efreeti bottle and then use it everyday until you get the 3 wishes or insane efreeti. If insane efreeti, spend another 145 days crafting another efreeti bottle. If you get 3 wishes, use them to create +10 enhancement bonus non-epic weapons/armor/equipment. What about epic gear?

2. Planar Bind an efreeti, pay the efreeti equal amount of gp for it to use wish to create an item. For example, pay 200,000gp for it to use one of its wishes to craft a +10 enhancement bonus weapon, pay the efreeti 100,000 for a +10 enhancement bonus armor/shield, etc.

3. Gate in an efreeti/solar to use its wish only to replicate spells you need during crafting.

4. Do you people have other methods of using wish other than using it directly yourself that a DM would allow?

1. Yes and yes

2. I think that's a fair negotiation for planar binding

3. Yes but what's the point of this

4. Eh gate+creature with such/SLA wish would work with me.

[RoboEmperor]

Alright, thanks for the answers, in a high op game I'll gate abuse wish and skip all crafting feats. In a low op game I'll just craft the stuff myself or suck it up and cast wish myself if I need to.



3. Yes but what's the point of this

Being a crafting sorcerer gish I might not have all the spells I need. Summon monster VII rectifies most of the spells, gate rectifies the rest, but it's a just in case. I have yet to find creatures that can provide me with demand and modify memory for thought bottles.

As for Cruiser1's post, I think there are a million ways of punishing wish abusers without resorting to rule changes. Role-play wise genies are very vengeful so after a player gates an efreeti for wishes, the DM should have a fun time sending assassins while the player sleeps or something. OR invoke "NPCs can break it better than you" and have a million NPCs abuse wish and power every enemy up with the most epic gears, at which point the player will try to abuse wish even more and eventually he'll probably take back abusing wish since the DM is so adamant against it.

[atemu1234]

For broken item making, look no further than the Artificer. Any questions?

[Urpriest]

I don't mind Efreet being able to grant Wishes. What's broken is that (Sp) and (Su) abilities don't require expensive material and XP costs. Make Wish always require 5000+ XP, and many problems in the game get fixed. You can Planar Bind or Gate in Efreet, Solars, etc, but it can't Wish for you unless it has 5000 XP saved up, which it probably doesn't. Currently there's nothing stopping an Efreeti from using its Wish spell-like to create a +1000000000 sword, or a magic item granting infinite free Wishes. With that kind of power, every level 9 Wizard, or the set of Efreet in the City of Brass, should have conquered the multiverse by now.

In the epic adventure Kerlith's Tower (from ELH), you can rescue an Efreeti from a Mirror of Life Trapping. In return he's willing to show you around the City of Brass, or grant you one Wish. Why only one wish, when you saved him from eternal imprisonment, and he's obviously not granting any other Wishes that day? It seems like that Efreeti can't grant any more than one even if he wanted to, because he only has 5K and not 10K XP saved up. Having (Sp) and (Su) abilities still require expensive meterial and XP costs seems to be RAI (which is more balanced and less broken). For example, it should be fine to Shapechange into a Zodar and use its Wish (Su) ability, but it should cost you 5000 XP to activate it.

See, if there was a system that determined how much XP an LA -- creature has, I would be almost OK with this. :smalltongue:

(Though using the Savage Species LA, an Efreeti could have enough for three Wishes only if they were fairly close to leveling...which I guess seems fair in its own right.)

[137beth]

See, if there was a system that determined how much XP an LA -- creature has, I would be almost OK with this. :smalltongue:

(Though using the Savage Species LA, an Efreeti could have enough for three Wishes only if they were fairly close to leveling...which I guess seems fair in its own right.)

I'd probably just give them xp based on hit-dice. It's far from perfect, but it is something every monster has without needing to rewrite all the monster manuals.

[Zetapup]

Given that crafting the bottle requires summon monster, I would rule that it would not be happy about you letting it out, as you put it there. While I would grant you the wishes, I would be doing my upmost to make sure that it did not work out well for you. Expect diminutive longswords and the like.

Small magic weapons wouldn't be much of a problem, actually. Scroll down to "size and magic items" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm). I definitely agree with the idea though- a LE creature is going to screw with you in any way it can. Curses, misinterpreting, loopholes... I'd honestly be more surprised if an efreeti made a magic item that wasn't messed up in some way. You might to get one to do that through diplomacy though

As for the op: there are some dms with whom I would never ever use wish, since they'd always attempt to screw me over with the wording. There are some that would be fine with you getting a magic +x sword as long as you don't abuse it too much. Figure out what type your dm is and go from there.


Being a crafting sorcerer gish I might not have all the spells I need. Summon monster VII rectifies most of the spells, gate rectifies the rest, but it's a just in case. I have yet to find creatures that can provide me with demand and modify memory for thought bottles.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to hire another spellcaster who has that spell?

[RoboEmperor]

Wouldn't it be cheaper to hire another spellcaster who has that spell?

It's a self-sufficiency thing. I could always just mass buy the scrolls or hire a spellcaster like you said or dominate a spellcaster but just in case I'd like an alternative method that although not optimal, would allow me to do the whole thing solo. (like a DM saying there's no one available for hire, or I need to work on this during travels)

[Urpriest]

I'd probably just give them xp based on hit-dice. It's far from perfect, but it is something every monster has without needing to rewrite all the monster manuals.

CR is a bit better for this, since HD are so variable between creature types (and go Epic long before the PCs do).

[OldTrees1]

I know they can't exceed +5, but I want to create an item of:
+2 Flaming Burst
+2 Icy Burst
+2 Shocking Burst
+1 Spell Storing
+1 Thundering
+2 Wounding

which totals +10

I'm not wishing to obtain a wish, I'm wishing the efreeti to use his wish as a spell to create an item, not some sort of twisted backfiring thingy ^^
You cannot have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because it is a +11 weapon
You cannot have a +0 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because special abilities require a +1 first.
You can have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Wounding weapon because it is a +10 weapon

[Urpriest]

You cannot have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because it is a +11 weapon
You cannot have a +0 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because special abilities require a +1 first.
You can have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Wounding weapon because it is a +10 weapon weapon with a +10-equivalent bonus

Fixed that for you. We really have to be clear when talking about this so we don't confuse new players.

[Seer_of_Heart]

You cannot have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because it is a +11 weapon


Yeah you can its just now an epic weapon and therefore silly expensive.

[OldTrees1]

Fixed that for you. We really have to be clear when talking about this so we don't confuse new players.

Thank you for the fixed terminology.

[RoboEmperor]

You cannot have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because it is a +11 weapon
You cannot have a +0 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Thundering Wounding weapon because special abilities require a +1 first.
You can have a +1 Flaming Burst Icy Burst Shocking Burst Spell Storing Wounding weapon because it is a +10 weapon

I already posted that I will be dropping wounding but thanks for the clarification. It's actually a load off my mind because no creature has mage's sword, and it's an underpowered spell for a level 7 spell. I'll probably replace it with keen. Having a permanent keen weapon is better than having to cast keen edge every few hours I guess...

[Vogonjeltz]

Yeah you can its just now an epic weapon and therefore silly expensive.

Weapons are considered Epic once the total bonus is +6 or higher. In no case can the total bonus exceed +10.

I think I recall a market value limit as well, still looking that up.

*ah yes, maximum market value is 200k per the MIC

[TuggyNE]

Weapons are considered Epic once the total bonus is +6 or higher. In no case can the total bonus exceed +10.

Ummmm. No. Weapons are considered epic once the total bonus exceeds +10, or once any given component (a single property or the numeric enhancement bonus itself) exceeds +6 on its own. Nonepic rules explicitly provide for weapons (and armor) with effective total enhancement bonuses of +6 to +10, and epic rules explicitly provide for weapons (and armor) exceeding +10 indefinitely.


To find the base price of an epic magic weapon, roll on Table: Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/weapons.htm#tableWeapons). Note that the +6 to +10 rows apply only to weapons that provide an enhancement bonus of +6 to +10 or weapons with a single special ability whose market price modifier is +6 to +10. Magic weapons with a total effective bonus of +6 to +10 but that have an enhancement bonus of +5 or less and special abilities whose individual market price modifiers are +5 or less use the table for nonepic magic weapons to determine price.
[…]
For enhancement bonuses higher than +20, the market price modifier is equal to the square of the bonus ×20,000 gp.