Which psionic items can be used by non psionics?

[RoboEmperor]

So I understand that there are 5 types of psionic items
Dorjes
Power Stones
Psicrowns
Psionic tatoos
Universal Items

So I was wondering which of these items allow non-psionics like wizards or sorcerers to use them?

The goal is to use wish to craft a ___ of true mind switch.
Power stones are out because non-psionics can't use them.
Psionic tatoos are out because they can't target anyone but I'd still like to know if non psionics can use em.

But what about Dorjes, Psicrowns, and Universal items?

I think Dorjes are allowed to be used by non-psionics but they are unyielding on the 50charges upon creation, so a guy crafting a dorje of true mind switch needs... 50 x 10,000 x 2 = 1million xp

There is a mirror of mind switch in universal items, but can you make a mirror of true mind switch? (this would be a custom item, so not sure if they are allowed)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dorjes are basically wands so you need the power on your class list or use UPD to activate one.
Power Stones are roughly equivalent to scrolls so the same restrictions apply.
Psicrowns are roughly equivalent to a staff. There's some differences but they're power trigger items, so you also need the power on your class list (or use UPD).

Psionic Tattoos are usable by anyone but can only target the creature they're on.
Universal Items are the psionic equivalent to wondrous items, so they're usable by anyone. They can basically do anything if your DM allows custom items.

Technically you can't use Wish to craft psionic items (it's restricted to magic items). Psionic-Magic transparency may apply here but it's not clear from the RAW imo.

Your best bet to manifest TMS as a non-manifester is to get a single point of Use Psionic Device (or use one of the options to use it untrained) and stack skill boosters and charisma boosts until you can autopass the DC 37 UPD check to manifest it from a power stone.

[RoboEmperor]

Dorjes are basically wands so you need the power on your class list or use UPD to activate one.
Power Stones are roughly equivalent to scrolls so the same restrictions apply.
Psicrowns are roughly equivalent to a staff. There's some differences but they're power trigger items, so you also need the power on your class list (or use UPD).

Psionic Tattoos are usable by anyone but can only target the creature they're on.
Universal Items are the psionic equivalent to wondrous items, so they're usable by anyone. They can basically do anything if your DM allows custom items.

Technically you can't use Wish to craft psionic items (it's restricted to magic items). Psionic-Magic transparency may apply here but it's not clear from the RAW imo.

Your best bet to manifest TMS as a non-manifester is to get a single point of Use Psionic Device (or use one of the options to use it untrained) and stack skill boosters and charisma boosts until you can autopass the DC 37 UPD check to manifest it from a power stone.

I dont mind spending a lot of skill points in use psionic devices. So what you are saying is... I can use any psionic device as long as I beat the use psionic devices check? Awesome!

As for the wish crafting thing and the transparency, on one side detect magic detects psionic items, dead magic kills psionic, and anti-magic field works on psionics, on the other side use magic devices and use psionic devices are different skills...

If wish is not allowed to craft said item, what would be alternative methods of getting a power stone of true mind switch? Only other I can think of is dominating a psionic.

[weckar]

I'd just like to point out that most psionic creatures (even those which are humanoid, completely sentient, etc etc) would not be able to use those items. Only those with levels in psionic classes would be able to. Or, of course, there is always UPD. Obtaining a stone heavily depends on how common psionics is in the game you are playing. If users of psionics are as common as magic users, it should be generally easier to obtain psionic items than magic items on the open market due to the "1 PP makes a psionic" rule. In other words: for every character that uses psionics there are 5 that have a latent, non-developed or otherwise-developed potential. A straight, pure Fighter could thereby still be psionic character, after all, and such exception for in fact whole races (!) does not exist for magic, and thereby not for magic items.

Long story short: if you can generally obtain magic items, psionic items should not be an issue.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The only thing being psionic gets you is psionic focus and access to psionic feats. A fighter can never use a Dorje or Power Stone, no matter how many PP he has.
To use power trigger items you need to have the power on your class list or use UPD.

For getting a power stone if there's no way to buy one and no psionic crafters in the campaign, Gate will let you summon a Gem Dragon (MM2). They get natural manifester progression so calling one of high enough level to manifest 9th level powers and having it manifest Reality Revision is pretty much foolproof short of DM fiat.

[weckar]

The only thing being psionic gets you is psionic focus and access to psionic feats. A fighter can never use a Dorje or Power Stone, no matter how many PP he has.
To use power trigger items you need to have the power on your class list or use UPD.
That is indeed the statement I made in the first line of my post. I just pointed out that there are generally more characters that will be POTENTIALLY able to use psionic items at a point, if the psionic/magic encounter distribution in a campaign is approximately 1:1. It's not like being a sorcerer where you either are or are not. If the power is naturally ingrained in more of the population odds are that it will eventually develop in those that even just seek to use these items and not even necessarily use the abilities themselves. In other words, the potential market will always be bigger.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That is indeed the statement I made in the first line of my post. I just pointed out that there are generally more characters that will be POTENTIALLY able to use psionic items at a point, if the psionic/magic encounter distribution in a campaign is approximately 1:1. It's not like being a sorcerer where you either are or are not. If the power is naturally ingrained in more of the population odds are that it will eventually develop in those that even just seek to use these items and not even necessarily use the abilities themselves. In other words, the potential market will always be bigger.

Using logic in a D&D world? Preposterous!

It depends on your campaign world. Even if everyone has power points the same applies to everyone with an intelligence score of 11+. They have the potential to learn wizard magic. The same applies to any other magical discipline that's learned instead of inborn, which is most of them afaik.
In fact naturally psionic races are generally heavily outnumbered so by the fluff more people have the potential to learn magic unless your fluff allows non-psionic races to learn psionics (instead of it being an inborn mutation your psionic PCs just happen to have).

It's also pretty safe to assume that psionic knowledge is as hard or as easy to acquire as basic magical training, barring campaign specific fluff.

[RoboEmperor]

I just learned the existence of Reality Revision, which is basically the psionic equivalent of wish, which means... wish can only make magic items and reality revision can only make psionic items, which mean wish can't make psionic items via RAW at least.

DAMN, my entire character I've been planning is in ruin D:. I wanted him to play normally until he got wish as a level 9 spell, then true mind switch into a pitfiend, cause I think they're the best looking devils.

Other than finding a power stone of true mind switch or buying from a shop, what other methods are there? Like maybe involving some other planar creature? Is there a creature that can cast reality revision? These will be what I'll be looking into, but anyways thanks all. If I can't find another method I'll probably just go dominate a psion somehow and make him craft it.

One last quick question, by RAW, can I create something like a headband of +20 use psionic devices through crafting and/or wish?


It's not like being a sorcerer where you either are or are not.

I disagree. Official description says sorcerers are just like poets, spells come naturally to them. SOME sorcerers say they got dragon blood but the other sorcerers says that's hogwash created by jealous wizards who don't have the talent.

[weckar]

^ Another argument for another topic, but you can't simply CHOOSE to become a Sorcerer if you never had the inborn gift.

On topic: A Pit Fiend eh? Of all Devils their Will save is relatively easy to overcome, I'll grant you that. They also don't have any abilities that would make the mission any more difficult. You'd probably have to deal with the level loss unless you have a way to prevent it from killing itself afterwards, though.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Use Gate to call a Gem Dragon(MM2). They have around 35-37HD at the levels you need them so by the time you can cast gate you can call one.
They get racial manifesting as a psion so any Wyrm or older Gem Dragon should be capable of manifesting Reality Revision.

You can create an item of +20 competence to a skill but it's subject to DM approval like all custom items.
You could also learn Moment of Prescience for a +25 boost and add a few other skill boosts and save your money/xp. Take a look here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3797).
Making a DC 37 skill check isn't actually that challenging at the level in question if you're a spellcaster.

[RoboEmperor]

Use Gate to call a Gem Dragon(MM2). They have around 35-37HD at the levels you need them so by the time you can cast gate you can call one.
They get racial manifesting as a psion so any Wyrm or older Gem Dragon should be capable of manifesting Reality Revision.

You can create an item of +20 competence to a skill but it's subject to DM approval like all custom items.
You could also learn Moment of Prescience for a +25 boost and add a few other skill boosts and save your money/xp. Take a look here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=3797).
Making a DC 37 skill check isn't actually that challenging at the level in question if you're a spellcaster.

Thank you so very much! I'm going to look into that dragon thing right now!
Could you kind of walk me through a proof of how I would get a gem dragon to use reality revision to craft my a power stone of true mind switch?

[Eldest]

Thank you so very much! I'm going to look into that dragon thing right now!
Could you kind of walk me through a proof of how I would get a gem dragon to use reality revision to craft my a power stone of true mind switch?

You gate a gem dragon through. You then ask them to use reality revision to craft a power stone of true mind switch and offer to pay them for xp or use a thought bottle for them and pay them for their troubles. You then do not piss off a high-epic dragon and get your true mind switch.

[sleepyphoenixx]

You gate a gem dragon through. You then ask them to use reality revision to craft a power stone of true mind switch and offer to pay them for xp or use a thought bottle for them and pay them for their troubles. You then do not piss off a high-epic dragon and get your true mind switch.

Gem Dragons aren't all that tough actually. Getting one dominated or dead isn't that hard with a little optimization. The fair method is more likely to fly with your DM though.

[RoboEmperor]

Which gem dragon knows reality revision? I read monster manual II and none of them explicitly state they have reality revision >.<. Does it say anywhere that gem dragons know most psion abilities? I only could find "They can manifest ___ several times a day at caster level ___"

As for the fair trade/domination thing, gate by itself is a domination tool so I'll be using that. Gate in a gem dragon, force it to use reality revision, then kill said dragon while under my command (make it fail against some save or die spell). Then I'll gate in a pitfiend, force it to willingly fail the save v.s. power stone of true mind switch, or make it use it on me.

So I guess I have a few options currently.
1. Buy one from the market.

2. Wish for one, because wish can do additional stuff than what's written for it. I'll probably end up paying more than 25,000xp for it though, and only if DM allows it and doesn't make the wish fail on me (partial completion).

3. Gem dragon, though as I said before, I can't find the RAW that says they can use reality revision >.<

4. Dominate a psion that knows reality revision or dominate and train a weak psion.


Just a quick question though, what spell would reveal the location of a psion with reality revision or true mind switch+imprint stone feat? Would:
a. wishing for an item belonging to said psion so I can use discern location work?
b. wish act as a more powerful discern location and give me the information I need?

[sleepyphoenixx]

MM2 is 3.0 so the descriptions use 3.0 psionics, which are significantly different from 3.5 psionics. There's a paragraph in the beginning of the book under special attacks - psionics that basically boils down to "if you use the psionics handbook you can actually give these creatures real psionics instead of using refluffed arcane magic". I'm not aware of a 3.5 update for gem dragons.

[hamishspence]

The MM2 and several others got a free update booklet online at the WOTC site- but that was published before the XPH.

[RoboEmperor]

MM2 is 3.0 so the descriptions use 3.0 psionics, which are significantly different from 3.5 psionics. There's a paragraph in the beginning of the book under special attacks - psionics that basically boils down to "if you use the psionics handbook you can actually give these creatures real psionics instead of using refluffed arcane magic". I'm not aware of a 3.5 update for gem dragons.


"Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day—color spray; 1/day—control winds. (When using the Psionics Handbook, replace control winds with the control air psionic power.)"

It doesn't say you can give it any psionic ability, only that you swap out control winds with the actualy psionic equivalent.

"A crystal dragon manifests powers, and gains additional attack and defense modes, as if it were a psion with Telepathy as its primary discipline."

Does this mean he can get any power a telepath can have? If true then this would be the RAW I was looking for, but I'm interpreting it as "powers he uses is like a telepath" not "he can do whatever a telepath can"

[sleepyphoenixx]

The "psionics" entry of the Amethyst Dragon says this:

An amethyst
dragon manifests powers, and gains additional attack and
defense modes, as if it were a psion with Psychokinesis as
its primary discipline.


Attack and defense modes don't exist anymore in 3.5 psionics, the rest is easily interpreted as a psion(kineticist). ML is given in the "Dragon abilities by Age" table. Conversion done.
Some of the the PLA's don't have equivalent powers anymore but that's not really a problem since they where designed for use without the psionics handbook in the first place.

So, since a Great Wyrm Amethyst dragon has a CL of 17, with psionics we get manifesting as a 17 level psion with the kineticist discipline.

[RoboEmperor]

Yeah, gem dragons does not seem to be a valid choice for me, unless someone here wishes to convince my interpretation is wrong :)
Anyone know of a way to find information on said psion?

Scrying requires me to have some sort of connection with the target, so... would a "being of same race" count as some sort of connection for scrying him? To fulfill the "None" requirement of scrying.

Would planar binding/gate work somehow? You know, ask for information for such a being. What kind of creature would know this stuff?

[Psyren]

But what about Dorjes, Psicrowns, and Universal items?


Dorjes are psionic wands and psicrowns are psionic staves, more or less. You need the power on your list to use them.

Universal items are just like wondrous items, usable by anyone (unless specified otherwise in the item's entry.)