Spellthief Beguiler 3.5 Any clues?

[cricricri13]

So hi. I know it's a liitle bit too late to innovate in 3.5 builds. But Somehow I think I found one and wanna see what you think. Or why I found no posts of this when it seems to be good.

So yeah. I haven't roleplayed D&d 3.5 in like ages now. Seriously, ages. So when one of my friends let me enter a game I was super excited. Now normally I'd make an artificer, cause I just love that class. But he didn't wanted eberron at all. So I ended up making an elven spellthief. And I allways loved the spellthieves, they're not the hardest hitting class but sure as hell they are usefull. And this campaign is full of magic users (both friends and enemies) so it's pretty usefull. (Except when that blasted rogue/warrior two-sword-wielding nemesis I have comes to kick my ass... f*ck him...)

So now I'm level 2, wich was surprisingly harder than normal to achieve because somehow we keep getting suuuper low xp from our enemies... I suppose the master just want's to make it slower paced. Which I like, so no big deal. And I thought of a build. I thought on multiclassing to Beguiler, the reasoning is pretty simple: Spellthief needs his sneack attacks like bread and butter. Beguiler has some super good class characteristics that make him capable of sneack attacking almost every turn (because it negates dex bonus and hides you and stuff) their spell and skills lists are also pretty compatable (I dunno if that's a true word, I'm spanish and my orthographic corrector is messing a lot today, so sorry if it isn't). And even if I loose some spellthief potential I kinda gain a lot of chances to use that potential and some more variety of stuff to do. So: My build would be like this: (lvl by lvl)

-Lvls 1-3=Lvsl 1-3 spellthief
-Lvls 4-5=Lvls 1-2 beguiler
-Lvl 6=Lvl 4 spellthief, and since at 6 I get a feat and I now can take it=Master spellthief feat.
-lvls 7-15=Lvls 5-13 spellthief
-Lvls 15-20=Lvls 3-7 beguiler

now:explaining part by part: I wait till lvl 3 to multiclass because the 3 first spellthief levels are a good basis, while the 4th what does is qualify me for some spells (and steall spell 2), the beguiler does offer me a good list and at 2nd level gives me the chance to start sneack attacking much more than before. Now, for having master spellthief at 6th (and since at 3rd it's impossible to get that's the lvl I want to have it) I need 4 spellthief levels and 2 beguiler levels. So that's exactly what I'm doing, and then I just forget about beguiler levels because past that lvl 2 I have my objective (sneacks) accomplished and I can focus on the utility that the spellthief gives, and then when I end what I see more usefull I go back to beguiler to get more of it's awesomeness and combat advantages (and I know I'm renouncing to pretty sweet stuff the spellthief gets at higher levels, and that this way I won't be able to chanell high-level spells without stealing them first, but I see the spell list as more of a utility stacker, and plan on stealing as much as I can, since the campaign has a huge lot of arcane magicians. And no psionics, the master forbid psionics too, I dunno why).

So now:
1-What do you think about this build?
2-can you give me any help on how to make it better, like feats and equipement and all that stuff (I already plan on getting weapon finesse -or I dunno if it has another name on english, I'm translating litterally here. I mean using dex. Instead of strength with the rapier) and all.
3-Would you change something? If so: What? and: Why?

And one last thing: If you are now thinking on multiclassing or prestige classing, take on account that the master is kinda strict with the fluff (I am too so it's fine, but that means multiclassing is pretty hard, I asked him on advance for the beguiler multiclass but dunno if he'll let me more classes. Plus I personally think a 7-beguiler 13-spellthief is a pretty good combination)

[weckar]

I'm mostly curious as to what you would actually be doing. Your spellcasting won't ever progress beyond 3rd level spells, and you'd be losing out on raw sneak attack potential. Most of what the spellthief does is quite situational and random as it is (most often you do not know what an opponent is capable of), so a loss of capacity is the last thing you need. Personally, depending on what you want to do, I'd either multi into rogue (just a dip for the extra early sneak attack die) or go beguiler all the way, still picking up the Master Spellthief feat. In fact, by the nature of that feat, you may even want to take a more general caster class as the Beguiler won't benefit from the armored casting.

[cricricri13]

I'm mostly curious as to what you would actually be doing. Your spellcasting won't ever progress beyond 3rd level spells, and you'd be losing out on raw sneak attack potential. Most of what the spellthief does is quite situational and random as it is (most often you do not know what an opponent is capable of), so a loss of capacity is the last thing you need. Personally, depending on what you want to do, I'd either multi into rogue (just a dip for the extra early sneak attack die) or go beguiler all the way, still picking up the Master Spellthief feat. In fact, by the nature of that feat, you may even want to take a more general caster class as the Beguiler won't benefit from the armored casting.

Ok, part by part:

1-3rd level spells are good enought. I know they don't seem. But most of the time I'd be stealing tons of more powerfull spells at higher levels, even at level 2 it's pretty easy to predict what spells do enemies have, and as I stated before, we're on a heavily magical campaign. In fact the only character in our party that's not an arcane caster is a cleric, so everything goes around magic (except that blasted rogue-warrior guy) what makes a spellthief pretty usefull. In fact I chose that class because of that. So my own "level list" is more to help me do the spellthief stuff better, instead of making me a caster. In fact with 2 more casters and a cleric on the party I don't wanna be a caster, that's not my role. (plus if I eventually need higher spells I can go grab some wands)

2-Again. The sneak attack is there to make sure I can steal a lot of stuff. I'm not planning on being a heavy hitter. I'm trying to take out the great amout of magic users on our way. Spellthief is a class about usefullness (buffing/debuffing, mage killing and ally protecting thanks to absorb spell) and in high levels I'll have the detect magic class feature for those mages that don't let me know their spells other way, so I can actually do that role pretty well right now. And I'm trying to implement that role. That's why I thought of the Beguiler, because it might not implement my sneack attack, but it's level 2 class features allow to make a lot more of sneak attacks than just spellthief. I'm exchanging quality for quantity, because after all what I'm trying with the sneak attacks is to be able to use the spellthief features, not do more damage, so with little sneak attack I get all I need. I have to say again that this isn't a normal campaign. Mostly all the BBEG and nemesis (except 1-That god damn warrior-rogue) are arcane castersand most combats have at least one of them, wich highly incremented the spellthief class features from mostly circumstantial to a real pain in the game masters ass.

3-About multiclassing rogue: that mostly would serve me to: 1-avoid stuff and 2-Hit harder with the sneak attack. As I said before. I just don't find that useful. And multiclassing is hard when you're on a fluff-intense game. So I just don't think it's all that good.

4-About going all beguiler, I started with spellthief, and the master said pretty seriously that your first class is your basic class, and as such the one you should add more levels into. Plus I find it usefull right now.

5-I know beguiler doesn't benefit from the armored caster. But multiclassing to other casters is kinda hard. Because my character became a spellthief because she HATES MAGES. So by fluff most casting classes are forbidden for me. Plus, I'm using the Beguiler to implement, and let me use more, the spellthief habilities, and not the other way round, and for that I think beguiler is probably the one that fits the most. I know it's like super specialized, but for once, that speciallyzation is a good thing, or so it seems right now.

[weckar]

Okay, I have a better idea what you're doing right now.... kind of. I don't really see how the beguiler's abilities fit into this picture, though. One of them allows your spells to be more effective when Dex to AC is denied (and when you would want to be sneak attacking, and spells with which you can sneak attack are rare), and the other allows a sneak attack if you successfully feinted the turn before (costing you a standard action and a roll). I'm not saying the choice is bad, I'm just saying there is better out there to improve sneak attack odds (not damage, odds). Most of it is shadow hand stuff.

[Ernir]

You want to steal spells. Just take more Spellthief levels. That distribution of Beguiler levels is dead weight on your build.

If there are specific spell effects the Beguiler grants that you're after, check first whether your Spellthief spellcasting can't just grant it on its own, and secondly whether you can replicate the effects with a magic item.

For instance, check the situation you'd be looking at at character level 15. One more Spellthief level, and you'd get 4th level spells. The extreme late-game Beguiler casting wouldn't even be able to give you that before level 20.


If you want to multiclass out of Spellthief, do so only if you need to for Master Spellthief CL shenanigans. Don't do it for Beguiler casting.

And certainly don't do it for the Beguiler level 2 feature. It's bad! :smalleek:

[cricricri13]

ok. Now we're talking. I made this build 'cause, primarly of 2 things:

1-The 2nd level Beguilers stuff. I dunno. I don't see them that bad. I mean, feinting is kinda common when you're in the middle of a trap, and sadly but true my partners, specially the god damn cleric. Seem to be an ambush-magnet. So I kinda seek for Quantity of stolen spells, and there it seemed a good chance.

2-The Master Spellthief let's you steal spell of a level much higher than a normal spellthief would, so it's kind of a no-brainer. And there's some controversy if you need to multiclass or not for it (it doesn't say that you need to multiclass but it clearly references to multiclassing characters and not monoclass ones, so it wouldn't be the first master to say it's only for multiclassers, wich makes some sense since it's more spellcasting-involved that most stuff you can get for the spellthief)

So. Yeah I've been without playing a decent d&d game for months now, and this one is kinda peculiar, so that's why I tried to innovate and see if I can maximize that stealing. If this build it's not the way to do it: What do you think would be the best way to make sure I can steal more spells? Is there any feat or multiclass to help me with that?

[weckar]

I think we're reading a different feat here, but Master Spellthief doesn't seem to give any advantage to a straight Spellthief at all....

EDIT: except the lack of spell failure it gives you for stolen spells. Is that it?

[nedz]

I quite like Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / Arcane Trickster 10

The problems with this build are

Unseen Seer can trash non-divination CL, hence only two levels
Arcane Trickster has odd skill pre-reqs
Spellthief can only hold 1 spell level per Spellthief level, even with Master Spellthief

You do only lose 1 caster level though.

Also it doesn't fit your character, though your fluff restrictions could just be flim-flam which is very typical for Beguilers.

BTW the Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feat is worth a look.

[cricricri13]

I think we're reading a different feat here, but Master Spellthief doesn't seem to give any advantage to a straight Spellthief at all....

EDIT: except the lack of spell failure it gives you for stolen spells. Is that it?

That is exactly the point. It says your levels stack with those of other classes, but then in the example it adds it clearly counts the spellthief levels as "1" and not "1/2" as common, so some players and masters asume it actually gives you that boost even if not multiclassing, while most think it doesn't. I personaly think that fluff-wise it doesn't (since it's more of a caster stuff) wich is a shame, because it means I need to multiclass to use that piece of gold.

[cricricri13]

I quite like Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / Arcane Trickster 10

The problems with this build are

Unseen Seer can trash non-divination CL, hence only two levels
Arcane Trickster has odd skill pre-reqs
Spellthief can only hold 1 spell level per Spellthief level, even with Master Spellthief

You do only lose 1 caster level though.

Also it doesn't fit your character, though your fluff restrictions could just be flim-flam which is very typical for Beguilers.

BTW the Godsblood Spelltheft (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) feat is worth a look.

And here's an example of what I don't need. Sorry to put that so straightforward. Bt we allways play fluff-wise around here, if I try to make such a munchkin with levels of lots of stuff the master will insta-kill my character and make me another one. We're trying to solve some issues and get the most out of the roles, not min/maxing.
About the godsblood stuff. I've seen it before and I like it, but fluff-wise my character is a thief that learned to steal spell to be able to fight the mages that she hates, and not a preacher, so again if suddenly she's a half-cleric thing the master will be very, very pissed.

[weckar]

That is exactly the point. It says your levels stack with those of other classes, but then in the example it adds it clearly counts the spellthief levels as "1" and not "1/2" as common, so some players and masters asume it actually gives you that boost even if not multiclassing, while most think it doesn't. I personaly think that fluff-wise it doesn't (since it's more of a caster stuff) wich is a shame, because it means I need to multiclass to use that piece of gold.

I assume you mean this example?

For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. I don't see where the problem is? level/2 is the level you can steal, with or without the feat.

[cricricri13]

I assume you mean this example?
I don't see where the problem is? level/2 is the level you can steal, with or without the feat.

O_o then the translation they did to spanish is the worst sh*t I've ever seen (sorry to express myself like that, but here in spain there's a lot of confusion because the translation of that example states that you would be able to steal as an 8th level caster wich when on higher levels means you access level 5 spells much sooner. Like: If you multiclass with mage F*ck I knew there was somthing wrong with that. And that's why you should never trust a fan-translated manual... Now I'll have to review all them in the english versions...

[cricricri13]

Ok, nope, the manual is bad translated, but the expression change isn't that bad, what is bad is how most interprete it. It's just a language stuff but in-game it's just... I think we've been battling over semantics all this time... oh well. At least it's not that bad after all I guess.

[weckar]

You still effectively get the spell levels of a spontaneous caster. A spellthief can steal 5th level spells at lv 10, while a beguiler could potentially cast 5th level spells at lv 10.

[cricricri13]

yeah. No it wasn't that part. I got confused because trying to discuss this with you and my partners here in spain at the same time and translating everything is just... confusing.

The point is not that. The point is that in the example it clearly says that the caster level of that guy would be the 8th, while an 8th level spellthief has caster level 4. In fact it's stated pretty clearly that the spellthief caster level is half his class level in the complete adventurer. But on that example, if they had taken that on account, it would be caster level 6 not 8th, so technically the master spellthief feat would double your caster level (or stop dividing it by two if you prefer it that way). So monoclass spellthiefs can get an awesome bonus out of that. Plus avoiding the armor penalty is just so good. But that example is a multiclass and it specifies multiclass various times. But in fact it doesn't add it as prereq. So half the people say it should be accessible to monoclass too, making the spellthief effectivelly a full caster with a slightly smaller list but stealing spells while the other half say it's only for multiclassing characters because fluff-wise it's helping you cast stuff and therefore it's only for spellthiefs that are also casters by other means.

[nedz]

And here's an example of what I don't need. Sorry to put that so straightforward. Bt we allways play fluff-wise around here, if I try to make such a munchkin with levels of lots of stuff the master will insta-kill my character and make me another one. We're trying to solve some issues and get the most out of the roles, not min/maxing.

It's not a Munchkin build thank you. E.g. Straight Wizard is somewhat more powerful, as are half a dozen other classes.

Fluff is mutable, limited only by your imagination.

I was just trying to suggest other options, if you don't like them then fine.

Your last sentence contains a contradiction BTW: How is getting the most out of the rules not min-maxing ?

[cricricri13]

It's not a Munchkin build thank you. E.g. Straight Wizard is somewhat more powerful, as are half a dozen other classes.

Fluff is mutable, limited only by your imagination.

I was just trying to suggest other options, if you don't like them then fine.

Your last sentence contains a contradiction BTW: How is getting the most out of the rules not min-maxing ?

1-If it contains various classes in an seemingly aleatory basis only because their stacked potential independent from the fluff is bgger that way, it's a munchkin, it can be good or bad, but it's a munchkin.

2-Fluff is pretty mutable, but there is a story, and the character has to be part of it, if it starts diverging to various different directions with no real undertone basis appart from it's numbers, then you anger the DM and he kills the character.

3-I actually like munchkins like that, it's fun to play those characters in some campaigns where everyon else does, it's fun. What I tried to say in the other message is that this is not one of those campaigns, and if I try to do that the master will kill my character and spazz one of his pre-mades ones in place, and they are bad, really bad.

4-Well there's a big ass difference between the two. Because we're not "getting the most out of the rules" we're "solving problems", there's a great difference: We're trying to realize what issues does a character has so that it doesn't end being a problem for the rest but taking on account that we can't just get out of the way, and that there's a story to be told, with changing parts but coherent with itself.
Min/maxing is looking only at the numbers, leaving fluff aside untill your character is just the best of the best and then trying to adapt the story to him.
If you can't see the difference it means you can't realize what's the power of narrative, and the master's influence. And therefore you probably will cause a lot of issues on any fluff-wise campaign you go to.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1-If it contains various classes in an seemingly aleatory basis only because their stacked potential independent from the fluff is bgger that way, it's a munchkin, it can be good or bad, but it's a munchkin.

In-character, from a role-playing perspective, character classes don't exist. All that matters in-character is what the character is capable of.

If you get a job as a cashier, and after a year and a half get promoted to assistant manager, then after another year get promoted to store manager, and then after two years get promoted to district manager and work in that position for five years, you could be seen as a Cashier 3/ Assistant Manager 2/ Store Manager 4/ District Manager 10, but you wouldn't be a munchkin. Your skill set would reflect your experiences in that career path, and while you wouldn't be the best cashier around, you wouldn't need to be because that's not something you focused on. People wouldn't view you as a Cashier/Assistant Manager/Store Manager/District Manager, you would just be cricricri13, and the same goes in-character in any RPG. There's no such thing as classes, people don't think that way, all that matters is what your character can do.

[nedz]

The word Munchkin is normally taken to mean someone who ignores inconvenient rules which check their power. It's a type of player rather than a type of character and it means someone who cheats.

Also Stormwind Fallacy — go look it up.

[cricricri13]

In-character, from a role-playing perspective, character classes don't exist. All that matters in-character is what the character is capable of.

If you get a job as a cashier, and after a year and a half get promoted to assistant manager, then after another year get promoted to store manager, and then after two years get promoted to district manager and work in that position for five years, you could be seen as a Cashier 3/ Assistant Manager 2/ Store Manager 4/ District Manager 10, but you wouldn't be a munchkin. Your skill set would reflect your experiences in that career path, and while you wouldn't be the best cashier around, you wouldn't need to be because that's not something you focused on. People wouldn't view you as a Cashier/Assistant Manager/Store Manager/District Manager, you would just be cricricri13, and the same goes in-character in any RPG. There's no such thing as classes, people don't think that way, all that matters is what your character can do.

And you completelly missed the point of what a class is. A character is not just a state file. A character is a story, a personality and a group of skills and knowledges learned over time.

A character class is not just one life decision, that's the skills and feats and all the equipement. A class is a life-lasting decision, and of course I'm not saying you shouldn't multiclass. Multiclassing is great in fact, because it allows your character to make changes and not just follow the line. But there's a difference between multiclassing and munchkinsizing.

What you explained there isn't a "Cashier 3/ Assistant Manager 2/ Store Manager 4/ District Manager 10" Let's go part by part: Cashier is just undercover starts, like apprentices, it doesn't count as class, like the townsfolk has no class either. And the rest are just MANAGERS, so that would be a "manager 16", just like a sciencist can be a microbiologist, biologist, fisiologist or however you call what in spanish it's called "Botánico". And those are disciplines, like the mage has different schools. A class is something completelly different from the rest, it's very definite and very serious.

Now I'm not saying I don't enjoy playing munchkins. Munchking-sizing is not a bad thing, I love playing that, and more when you gotta try make the weirdest fluffs ever to use them. But there are games when you can munchkinsize and there are games when trying to do it will make the master kill you. And this is one of the second ones. So please let's not have this conversation here, because we're derailing this and the stuff about the master spellthief feat is really making me wonder what happends there.

[cricricri13]

The word Munchkin is normally taken to mean someone who ignores inconvenient rules which check their power. It's a type of player rather than a type of character and it means someone who cheats.

Also Stormwind Fallacy — go look it up.

I know what stormwind fallacy is thanks, I studied that at university.

Now. A munchkin is not that. A munchkin is a character that stacks templates or classes one after the other looking only at his stats without taking the story (fluff) on account, what you described is a cheater.

And I'll say it once again. MUNCHKING SIZING IS NOT BAD. I enjoy doing it on the games designed to do it, because it allows for awkward but awesome combos and given inspiration for ways to use the classes diferently that what they were intended to. But that's one kind of game, and the fluff-wise games are pretty much the opposite. And this is a fluff-wise game, so no munchking sizing allowed, it's that simple. I'll repeat it just so it's clear. I LOVE MUNCHKIN SIZING. It's awesome, it's innovative and creative to a point that fluff will never be. But in this game I can't use it, so please leave it aside and let's start thinking on fluff-wise options.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm going to quote myself from another forum:

First post, to give you an idea of the build. In this case, it is an unarmed barbarian build:

"Just for people wanting to play non wushu monks, here's another option. The Punching barbarian. Yet another of the 'monk replacements', other than Unarmed Swordsage and Tashalatora and Heavily ACFed Monk. Much more of a mundane martial artist, and does lots of the combat things the monk wants to be able to do! Very good offense and mobility.

Here's how you do it:

1.) Be a Barbarian
2.) Take Whirling Frenzy (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) or Ferocity (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
3.) Take Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion, this helps tripping significantly. You might want to get the feat 'Knock-Down', in the SRD at some point as well)
4.) Take Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana)
5.) Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
6.) Take City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349, you might need to convince the GM on this one. What it actually does is pretty simple: it removes proficiency in medium armor, martial weapons, and shields, adding instead Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, Two Weapon Fighting when fighting unarmed, the improved version at 6th, the greater at 11th, and reduces the penalty with improvised weapons from -4 to -2. Quite good for a 'Monk'. You might be able to just ask for those changes themselves, of something like them.)
7.) Take Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement)
8.) Get the feat Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle)
9.) Get a Monk's Belt (Dungeon Master's Guide or System Resource Document. Before you get access to this, just wear light armor like normal.)
10.) Get a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species, this lets you enchant unarmed strike with things beyond +#'s; very useful! You can get the smoking property to get a miss chance on your body, for example, or magebane or sure-striking!)
11.) Get a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic)
12.) Take Snap Kick (Tome of Battle)
13.) Take Knock-Down (System Resource Document and I believe also Unearthed Arcana)
14.) Take mobility skill tricks of various sorts, especially to do with charging (Complete Scoundrel)
15.) You now have a fantastic and brutal, hard style martial artist!"

Now the actual quote that references this:

"They make perfect sense for someone who realizes that Barbarian, like any other class, is simply a collection of abilities to describe someone's competency.

For example, that build would be quite good at describing how Sherlock Holmes fights in the 2009 movie. You know, in this scene?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGCMfprPJoA

He goes into a combat trance, and executes a whirling combination of vicious unarmed strikes. I'd peg him as a level 6 gestalt Factotum//This barbarian build, personally. In other words, I am using mechanics to describe a fluff concept. Like Sherlock Holmes's fighting style. Does a Wolf Totem Spirit Lion Totem have to have two totems for a tribe? One for the more physical animal that sponsors his tribe, one for the spiritual essence of an animal? Heavens no! If you do that, you are just limiting yourself unnecessarily. What it actually describes is a competent melee combatant that is swift on his feet, able to execute fast strikes, highly mobile, and has an occasional combat trance for when things get ugly. Which could be ANYONE with those capabilities as part of who they are and their character!

Also, the Barbarian class is terrible for Howard's Conan. If you wanted to make a character that does the things that Conan does in Howard's works, you would do something like this:

Spirit Lion Totem, Bear Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2 / Wilderness, Penetrating Strike Rogue 3 / Strong-Arm, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Ranger 3 / Zhentarim Soldier, Thug, Dungeon Crusher, Physical Prowess, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Fighter 3 / Warblade 2. And he's surrounded by lower level people, as befits the stories.

Do you understand what I am doing? I am getting the system to fit character concepts and roles. I am expressing things via how the system works, using the rules in the system. Are these 'Builds'? Yes. They are ways to build people with specific narrative abilities. I'm making D&D like GURPS, in a way, by making it do what I want."

And an interesting reply from that other forum was:

"Going to have to come down on Gavin's side, here, [name deleted]. Refluffing class abilities and feats isn't mechanics-first design. It's the opposite-- coming up with a character concept and then seeking out the mechanics which fit it. Most classes present a very narrow archetype with a number of mechanical abilities that didn't make sense for all characters or game worlds. I can't count the occasions when I've wanted to play a Paladin but didn't give two poops about having a magic horse, or a shapeshifter but saw no need to have more animals just hanging out with me."

-------------

In other words, D&D 3.5e works best when you realize classes are nothing but collections of abilities and NOT life choices, and are NOT jobs. Now, you can play 3.5e in such a way where classes are exactly the (generally abhorrently written) fluff that describes them in the books, and where they ARE jobs / lifestyles, and you actually DO need to be trained by someone in a class to multiclass or prestige class... but the game is usually lessened if you do that. And you should make sure you let the players know that you are doing the 'classes as lifestyle and job and always use the default fluff' bit, before game start. Because that IS a gaming choice.

[weckar]

Munchkin, in general, is a derogatory term. I'd prefer if you didn't (mis)use it.

Also, I disagree with your view on classes. Some character concepts cannot be caught by the standard classes. That's where mass multiclassing sometimes has to come in: To make a character story work, and make the character work as he would in the story.

Take for example a Dwarven Earth Nomad. What kind of class would that be? When I built one a few years ago, I wanted him to be an all-round caster; representing the generalist magical knowledge he had picked up being both arcane and divine. To make this a little more efficient, I had to go into a prestige class that would level both caster levels at an acceptable rate. Sticking to theme, I took a few levels of Geomancer. Then, to capitalize on the earth and travel themes, I took levels in Sand Shaper and Earth Dreamer. That's 5 classes, combined into a concept no one of them could catch individually.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And you completelly missed the point of what a class is....

Now I'm not saying I don't enjoy playing munchkins. Munchking-sizing is not a bad thing, I love playing that, and more when you gotta try make the weirdest fluffs ever to use them. But there are games when you can munchkinsize and there are games when trying to do it will make the master kill you. And this is one of the second ones. So please let's not have this conversation here, because we're derailing this and the stuff about the master spellthief feat is really making me wonder what happends there.

You have no idea what munchkin means, and you need to stop using it until you learn to use it properly, it's equivalent to a racial slur in the gaming community. Munchkins are cheaters, who ignore the rules to win, not players who use multiclassing to make optimized and efficient characters.

Classes are not married to their fluff, two characters of the same class can have completely different backgrounds and fluff, and neither have to be the same as what's built into the class. You can have a Hexblade who was raised as a noble warrior but made deals with the denizens of the lower planes for power, and you can have a Hexblade who comes from a primitive tribe and is a warrior at heart but was raised by the village witch doctor. Neither of those use the class's built-in fluff, but they both fit perfectly with what a character of that class is capable of.


And here's an example of what I don't need. Sorry to put that so straightforward. Bt we allways play fluff-wise around here, if I try to make such a munchkin with levels of lots of stuff the master will insta-kill my character and make me another one. We're trying to solve some issues and get the most out of the roles, not min/maxing.
About the godsblood stuff. I've seen it before and I like it, but fluff-wise my character is a thief that learned to steal spell to be able to fight the mages that she hates, and not a preacher, so again if suddenly she's a half-cleric thing the master will be very, very pissed.

Godsblood has nothing to do with a character being religious or preaching. It involves the gods becoming mortal and walking the prime material plane, often dying, and individuals being exposed to their potent blood or even harvesting it for use in rituals. You may have stepped in some godsblood when fighting one of those mages you hate, or been exposed to a spell enhanced by godsblood, or knocked over a bowl of it to disrupt a ritual and had it spilled on you, or any other explanation for why a character may have been exposed to it. That doesn't mean you have to go preach about anything, it just means you were exposed to the power of the blood of a dead god and it transferred a sliver of their divine portfolio to you, giving you access to the spells of one of that portfolio's domains.

You're getting too caught up in the fluff, just about any mechanic can be applied to a character of just about any background if you ignore the built-in fluff and just be creative.

If you're going to go to college for a degree, and you need only a few credit hours of a certain subject to take some courses later on, you're not going to take more of that subject than you have to. The suggested Spellthief 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / Arcane Trickster 10 is very similar to this, Unseen Seer is only taken long enough to qualify for Arcane Trickster, which can be viewed as your end goal for your degree. It's not a subject you're going to major in, it's just something you need to have a little bit of to get your major. It doesn't matter what courses you took to get that major, it only matters that you have it and what you're capable of.

[cricricri13]

Ok it seems it's something cultural I guess.

As I stated before I'm spanish. And here in spain the word munchking is used to refer to "characters made out of stacking classes and or templates for their total result without taking on account it's individual class fluffs"

So it's NOT offensive here, in fact I've allways been a proud munchkin-sizer making my artificiers take one level dip into cleric for that feat that allows you to have most of the spells known. And I'm sorry if I offended you. But it isn't here! It's that simple.

And we have 2 kinds of games:

1-The so called "munchkin parties" when your immagination can run wild, and as long as the class features match what you want you can make a relativelly easy fluff out of it.

2-The "fluff wise parties" where you have to take on account each class as a hard life decission that affects deeply and as such having more than two classes is almost impossible, and more than three will most likelly make your master kill you.

Now that secont kind of game is the one used the most. Specially on events preared by shops and stuff. So it's kind of implemented. And even if I like the first one more, this game, as most, is of the second kind, and that's why, for instance, I can't get features from eberron.

Now sorry if I offended you. It's just a cultural misunderstanding.

[Urpriest]

It's not really a Spanish/English thing, more of a forums with optimizers/forums without them thing.

But anyway, your build is illegal since you can't take Master Spellthief until you have 2nd level spells. I assume you aren't using tricks to get Beguiler to cast 2nd level spells early, since it sounds like you're building this for a group that doesn't approve of such tricks.

Getting second level spells out of Beguiler would require four levels. The only way you could get Master Spellthief by sixth level would be if you went Spellthief 2/Beguiler 4, which delays your Spelltheifing quite a bit.

You could go with that setup, but it won't benefit you for quite some time. Master Spellthief does raise your caster level, but before 9th level it's giving you the same benefit as Practiced Spellcaster could have. Furthermore, if you had instead gone straight Spellthief, you could have taken Master Spellthief at 9th level anyway, since that's after Spellthiefs get 2nd level spells.

2nd level Beguiler spells won't help you much with Sneak Attacks either. The best you can pick up there is Invisibility, and that only helps your first attack be a Sneak Attack. But your first attack every combat should be a Sneak Attack anyway, since there's usually somebody who goes after you in Initiative and thus is Flat-Footed, especially if you have a good Dex. Plus, since you're leveling slow and plan to steal a lot, chances are you'll be able to afford a Wand of Invisibility before too long, which sounds like all you wanted out of Beguiler casting anyway.

Anyway, you should be very good at Use Magic Device, with a high Cha (by the way, is your Int even high enough to get much use out of Beguiler?), so getting utility out of magic items (especially on the higher levels) is a better idea than picking up a bunch of weak casting. Go single-classed Spellthief, and take Master Spellthief at 9th level if your DM allows it (though note that, as you noticed, it's a result of something that looks like a mistake, so it may be Munchkin-like by this forum's definition).

[nedz]

OK, I figured it was a semantic issue. ( In other words: words being used with different meanings — a common cause of communication problems)

Now you did start out by asking for builds featuring Spellthief and Beguiler, and any such builds are going to look at Hybrid PrCs such as Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster. The purpose of these hybrid classes is to keep the character relevant at high level — should the game last that long.

The Stormwind fallacy asserts that the debate between Roll playing and Role playing is a fallacy. This is because the purpose of the build is to model the desired character concept. There is no point claiming to be a great hero etc. if in fact you cannot back that up mechanically. So if you take character options purely for fluff reasons then the character will end up not matching the fluff, which is a contradiction. The mechanics should support the desired fluff; and this is especially true in simulationist type games.

[cricricri13]

It's not really a Spanish/English thing, more of a forums with optimizers/forums without them thing.

But anyway, your build is illegal since you can't take Master Spellthief until you have 2nd level spells. I assume you aren't using tricks to get Beguiler to cast 2nd level spells early, since it sounds like you're building this for a group that doesn't approve of such tricks.

Getting second level spells out of Beguiler would require four levels. The only way you could get Master Spellthief by sixth level would be if you went Spellthief 2/Beguiler 4, which delays your Spelltheifing quite a bit.

You could go with that setup, but it won't benefit you for quite some time. Master Spellthief does raise your caster level, but before 9th level it's giving you the same benefit as Practiced Spellcaster could have. Furthermore, if you had instead gone straight Spellthief, you could have taken Master Spellthief at 9th level anyway, since that's after Spellthiefs get 2nd level spells.

2nd level Beguiler spells won't help you much with Sneak Attacks either. The best you can pick up there is Invisibility, and that only helps your first attack be a Sneak Attack. But your first attack every combat should be a Sneak Attack anyway, since there's usually somebody who goes after you in Initiative and thus is Flat-Footed, especially if you have a good Dex. Plus, since you're leveling slow and plan to steal a lot, chances are you'll be able to afford a Wand of Invisibility before too long, which sounds like all you wanted out of Beguiler casting anyway.

Anyway, you should be very good at Use Magic Device, with a high Cha (by the way, is your Int even high enough to get much use out of Beguiler?), so getting utility out of magic items (especially on the higher levels) is a better idea than picking up a bunch of weak casting. Go single-classed Spellthief, and take Master Spellthief at 9th level if your DM allows it (though note that, as you noticed, it's a result of something that looks like a mistake, so it may be Munchkin-like by this forum's definition).

About obtaining the master spellthief: Yeah the guide I read said "When your caster level is 4" now reading the oficial book, and even the transllation, it's not that way, so I guess the ones making the guide were asuming that you monoclassed. Wich pretty much ends my build right there.

About the UMD and Int stuff: I got pretty weird results on the dice: two 8s, one 14, one 13 and two 15s (or so says my DM, we were chatting on skype so he was the one rolling) so as an elf I get +2 dex adn -2 cons

for a result of "Str 8 (I'm gonna take weapon finesse at lvl 3 so it's not such a big deal, nah who am I kidding? it's an awful deal. Dex 13+2=15, Int 15, Cha 15, Wis 8 (I really hate having negative numbers here. But I wasn't gonna give the 8 to cons with my allready poor hit dice) and cons 14-2=12" But yeah, at this point I'm pretty convinced that I'd rather go single class. Now the only question would be if someone knows for sure how the master spellthief feat works for sure. Like, if wizards stated somewhere on articles or dragon mag an errata or something, and if there's other feats that can be usefull.

Now. The Godsblood Spellthief. Not only it's... Hard to match with the fluff. (and I don't think the master will include the blood of a fallen god in the game) it's allso nowhere in the manuals, the only time I've seen it is in that article. So the DM is not very likelly to let me get that. As I said he already took down Eberron because of fluff stuff. If I can't point at a manual he sure as hell will think I'm cheating.

And there's another feat I've been recomended in another forum "Telling Blow" But it states that it adds the damage of sneak attack to the crits, not that it counts as a snek attack, so I guess the one in that forum was just reading it wrong.

[nedz]

I had someone play a Scout in one of my games with Telling Blow. It was pretty useless, even after I re-wrote it so that it wasn't a completely wasted feat. The problem is that its very situational: how often do you Crit ? Even with Crit fishing it rarely triggers in situations where you wouldn't have got the sneak damage anyway.