4 Fighters are in the party - how far behind CR do they get?

[Particle_Man]

I know that wizards are tier 1 and fighters are much lower-tier, but now I am wondering how that "cashes out" in terms of needing to lower the CR of monsters and other challenges.

So lets assume a party of 4 single-classed fighters, with wealth-by-level (lots of healing potions?) allowed but no leadership or other means of getting "non-fighters" involved. I will restrict their races to the 7 in the phb, and feats to the phb, and magic items to the dmg. On the other hand, I will restrict monsters to the MM, and other challenges (traps, etc.) to the DMG.

Assume the fighters are 20th level, what CR is appropriate to challenge them without overwhelming them?

What about 15th level fighters?

10th level fighters?

5th level fighters?

[Urpriest]

I don't think this is an appropriate question to ask. Lowering CR means lowering the numbers, and Fighters can mostly keep up in the numbers game if properly geared. A four-Fighter party means you have to use qualitatively easier encounters, which doesn't generally translate to encounters of lower CR.

[Red Fel]

I know that wizards are tier 1 and fighters are much lower-tier, but now I am wondering how that "cashes out" in terms of needing to lower the CR of monsters and other challenges.

So lets assume a party of 4 single-classed fighters, with wealth-by-level (lots of healing potions?) allowed but no leadership or other means of getting "non-fighters" involved. I will restrict their races to the 7 in the phb, and feats to the phb, and magic items to the dmg. On the other hand, I will restrict monsters to the MM, and other challenges (traps, etc.) to the DMG.

Assume the fighters are 20th level, what CR is appropriate to challenge them without overwhelming them?

What about 15th level fighters?

10th level fighters?

5th level fighters?

CR isn't a good reflection of CR.

Basically, for a well-optimized and tactically sound party, with poorly-operated NPCs, even a high-CR encounter becomes a cakewalk. Similarly, if the powerful PCs are played poorly, and the miniscule monsters are masterfully manipulated, a low-CR encounter will be devastating. I need not remind you, for example, that a lone Allip is CR 3, and could effortlessly devastate an unprepared party.

The question isn't "What CR is appropriate," but rather "What tactics are appropriate?"

Let's assume that all of your Fighters are melee-oriented. Nobody thought to bring a bow. You can now throw away any encounters with an enemy who prefers to fly - even at CR 3, that enemy would be able to comfortably wipe the floor with them.

So here's what we know. If the enemy is flying (not "is able to fly," because you can play them like idiots and have them stand there, but is actually flying during the encounter) it's too hard. If the enemy is incorporeal, it's too hard. If the enemy will teleport at-will, it's too hard. If the enemy's attacks ignore AC, it's probably too hard. If the enemy frequently uses attacks that target Will or Reflex saves, it's going to be tough. If the enemy frequently uses mind-affecting abilities, stun, daze, or other forms of highly-effective battlefield control, it's going to be tough.

If the enemy stands there and fights, one-on-four, you've got a fairly even fight. Even a team of non-magical fighters, assuming reasonably equipment for their level, can defeat many "idiot fighter" encounters four-on-one.

These observations are CR-irrelevant. An Adult Black Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#blackDragon) is CR 11, has Frightful Presence DC 20, a 12d4 breath weapon, 27 AC, DR 5/magic, flight, and 3rd-level Sorcerer casting. According to the Encounter Calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/), a CR 11 enemy against an ECL 11 party of 4 is "challenging." If you play it like an idiot, having it sit on the ground, not cast spells, and melee with the occasional dragon breath, it's a challenging but manageable fight. A team of level 11 Fighters has a +11 BAB, meaning that their attacks hit slightly under half the time; however, there are four of them, so that makes up for things, and at level 11 we can assume they have at least +1 magical weapons. And while the Adult has a massive to-hit, again there are four of them, probably well-armed, and prepared to soak some brutality. Because, let's face it, if your Fighter - whose job it is to sit in melee, dishing out and receiving pain - can't take a strong hit, he really can't do much of anything.

If this Dragon were played intelligently, no 11th-level party would survive. Even an ECL 15 party, which the calculator calls an "easy" encounter, would be difficult, because the Dragon would be flying, strafing with fire, using Flyby Attack, powerful spells, and its 3/day Darkness ability. Even with casters that would be hard; with just Fighters it becomes virtually impossible.

The CR isn't of the monsters themselves, is the point. The CR is how you play them.

[G.Cube]

I think you may be underestimating wbl. Four competent fighters are going to use that gold to invest in magic items to make sure they can do their job and stay alive, and with no casters at high level, they should be doubly thinking about how best to use that gold. If they really pool their resources, discuss who buys what, and plan well for high level adventuring, they should have a fair chance at surviving.

[OldTrees1]

Well they can deal with any foes they can reach and can harm.

So if their opponent is a close ranged (melee or breath weapon) skirmisher (flyby attack) and has a fly speed less than 10ft + the fighter's zone of control + twice the Fighter's flying charge speed (Boots of Speed + Improved Dragon Wings = 60ft x2 = 120ft), then the Fighters can engage the enemy. So a large fighter with a reach weapon, boots of speed and improved dragon wings would be outclassed by a flier with 275ft fly speed.

Most mature dragons have 150ft-200ft fly speed and access to haste for a total of 180ft-230ft fly speed.


Sidenote:
The Fighters will never buy a healing potion. A healing belt(6d8 daily) is more efficient over a 20 level career.

[drack]

I don't think this is an appropriate question to ask. Lowering CR means lowering the numbers, and Fighters can mostly keep up in the numbers game if properly geared. A four-Fighter party means you have to use qualitatively easier encounters, which doesn't generally translate to encounters of lower CR.
I agree with this.

CR isn't a good reflection of CR.

The CR isn't of the monsters themselves, is the point. The CR is how you play them.

Though this is also true keeping in mind that some monsters, like the allip, are more of a challenge then their CR while others are less.

That said I've seen wizards and fighters both well made and poorly made some need much lower CR, and some go well above the recommended. The trick to it all is that the GM is expected to know which of the two their party is and adjust accordingly.

[tyckspoon]

Sidenote:
The Fighters will never buy a healing potion. A healing belt(6d8 daily) is more efficient over a 20 level career.

Dumping all your skill points into cross-classing UMD until you can reliably use wands and scrolls is even better. 's not like you've got anything better to do with them on your class skill list.. (well. MAYBE Intimidate, but that's covered by having a very modest Int bonus or being a Human/Human variant.)

[drack]

You can, but cross classing doesn't get you vary far... Being able to scale the highest cliffs, leap the broadest crevasses, and swim the roughest rivers in armor however...

[tyckspoon]

You can, but cross classing doesn't get you vary far... Being able to scale the highest cliffs, leap the broadest crevasses, and swim the roughest rivers in armor however...

Sure, and you do those things with magic. By the time you can invest enough skill points to actually do those things with your skill checks, it's cheaper and easier to do it with an appropriate item or spell (need to scale the highest cliffs? Get yourself some Spider Climb! Using Climb checks is for suckers and makes it wayyy too easy to get killed by the inevitable rock-throwing mountain giant ambush.)

[drack]

Yup, I may be being influenced by a no-magic game in which I'm playing a fighter. =p

[OldTrees1]

Dumping all your skill points into cross-classing UMD until you can reliably use wands and scrolls is even better. 's not like you've got anything better to do with them on your class skill list.. (well. MAYBE Intimidate, but that's covered by having a very modest Int bonus or being a Human/Human variant.)

I don't know. That is a higher effect but for a much higher cost. I would rather pass social challenges (Thug Variant for class skills) than have a minor boost in healing efficiency.

[drack]

Speaking as the guy who always plays party cleric I can say that healing efficiency can improve a fair bit with a wand compartment and a wand of faith healing... only really done that on a paladin though... Fighter I find "don't make it easy for them to hit you and don't die" as a better strategy...

[awa]

as others have said cr is not the right question a lancer on a flying mount with he right feats/items can hold his own against a large number of cr 20 just by killing them in one attack

just power attack and spirited charge is looking at 120 dam.

mounted archers can solo half the monster manual becuase so many monsters have poor solutions to flying targets that can just sit several hundred feet in the air.

[Coidzor]

It's not CR you have to worry about, it's abilities that they can't deal with between either their builds, their wealth, or, in corner cases, the creativity of the individual player.