Legality of Precocious Apprentice for prereq purposes?

[RavynsLand]

I think I've heard a couple different arguments but never really seen a rules lawyer do the legwork and come up with a definitive answer. In a RAW game, no shenanigans allowed, does the Precocious Apprentice feat allow a 1st-level arcane caster access to the "able to cast 2nd-level spells" prerequisite?

Sorry if this has been done before.

[pwykersotz]

I think I've heard a couple different arguments but never really seen a rules lawyer do the legwork and come up with a definitive answer. In a RAW game, no shenanigans allowed, does the Precocious Apprentice feat allow a 1st-level arcane caster access to the "able to cast 2nd-level spells" prerequisite?

Sorry if this has been done before.

It is both rules-legal and a shenanigan by my count, so...maybe?

From everything I've ever seen, it boils down to the fact that the plural form of 'spell' is used. You can use a single spell with Precocious Apprentice. Then again, so can a low level Ranger. The difference is that they can select from a wide variety of abilities, but each still only gets one spell per day. But if you then use Versatile Spellcaster, you can use the spell more than once...and you get multiple 'spells'.

It's all a bunch of hijinks and rules technicalities. If you're a stickler for the exact rules and want the game to run more like M:TG where everything is precise, yeah, it works. If you want it to mean a concept of overall magical understanding rather than a binary value then it's open to interpretation. If you think casters are powerful enough already, then it's out the window.

Basically, what kind of game do you run?

[RavynsLand]

Technically a 4th-level sorcerer can only cast a single second-level spell as well.

Oh, I'm not really asking for me, I'm just asking out of curiosity. We've always allowed Precocious Apprentice since nobody can see a reason not to.

[Pangaea]

I think I've heard a couple different arguments but never really seen a rules lawyer do the legwork and come up with a definitive answer. In a RAW game, no shenanigans allowed, does the Precocious Apprentice feat allow a 1st-level arcane caster access to the "able to cast 2nd-level spells" prerequisite?

Sorry if this has been done before.

Most objections to it's legality revolve around the pluralization of "spells". Which, if you were to apply across the board, would mean a 4th level sorceror wouldnt be eligible for certain PrCs. So, if you accept a 4th level Sorc is eligible for a PrC, then so is a precocious apprentice.

EDIT: Swordsage'd

[RavynsLand]

http://community.us.playstation.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/254955iB421E5E6DEA9990E/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

[Sian]

Even stronger is the Improved Sigil: Krau that Illumians can get ... as it explicitly states that every time you gain a new level you can reappoint the 2(!) spells its working for

[Seer_of_Heart]

Even stronger is the Improved Sigil: Krau that Illumians can get ... as it explicitly states that every time you gain a new level you can reappoint the 2(!) spells its working for

The problem is that locks in what race you are and one sigil you take.

[pwykersotz]

You know, going over it again, I'm once again reminded of this:


When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot...

...directly inferring that use of the feat does not qualify you to cast 2nd level spells. Then compare that with earlier in the same paragraph when it references being high enough level to cast 2nd level spells...

I hate RAW sometimes. When you try to read descriptive English like a computer everything just gets way more complicated. :smalltongue:

[RavynsLand]

You know, going over it again, I'm once again reminded of this:



...directly inferring that use of the feat does not qualify you to cast 2nd level spells. Then compare that with earlier in the same paragraph when it references being high enough level to cast 2nd level spells...

I hate RAW sometimes. When you try to read descriptive English like a computer everything just gets way more complicated. :smalltongue:

Aha, but note that it says "retain." You can't retain something that you don't already have so by definition you must have a second-level spell slot, and the ability to cast second-level spells!

[pwykersotz]

Aha, but note that it says "retain." You can't retain something that you don't already have so by definition you must have a second-level spell slot, and the ability to cast second-level spells!

Aha, but it says "retain the extra 2nd level spell slot", which qualifies the 2nd level spell in a new category. It isn't a spell at all, it's an extra spell. Clearly the possession of an Extra Spell (tm) is not the possession of second-level spells since they are referred to distinctly. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, at this point it's a Devil's Advocate game.