Critical Threat Range Q/A

[Barbarian Horde]

Next is that an 18-20/x2 crit range (from say a scimitar or rapier) gets double to 15-20/x2 with something like Improved Critical or the Keen property. You double the number of threat numbers and 18-20 normally covers three numbers so double that needs to cover six.

My DM explains to me that 20 is automatic success. That it not count towards the weapons Crit range, so the range would be become 16-20/x2. I'm looking for a ruling that would help me explain why thats not right.

[pwykersotz]

Next is that an 18-20/x2 crit range (from say a scimitar or rapier) gets double to 15-20/x2 with something like Improved Critical or the Keen property. You double the number of threat numbers and 18-20 normally covers three numbers so double that needs to cover six.

My DM explains to me that 20 is automatic success. That it not count towards the weapons Crit range, so the range would be become 16-20/x2. I'm looking for a ruling that would help me explain why thats not right.

All weapons that damage have a threat range. Many have a range of simply 20. Thus, it DOES count. It's valid by itself, why wouldn't it be valid when grouped with more numbers?

Found it! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm)

Quote: "There’s no table entry for a threat range of 16-20 because no combination weapons, feats, and magic can attain it in the standard d20 rules."

[KillianHawkeye]

In addition, looking at the full text of the Improved Critical feat in the Player's Handbook or the keen weapon property in the Dungeon Master's Guide rather than the trimmed down texts in the online SRD plainly shows that the 20 is included in the weapon's normal threat range. Both use the longsword as an example, indicating that its normal 19-20 threat range (2 numbers) gets doubled to 17-20 (4 numbers).

[Snowbluff]

All weapons that damage have a threat range. Many have a range of simply 20. Thus, it DOES count. It's valid by itself, why wouldn't it be valid when grouped with more numbers?

Found it! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm)

Quote: "There’s no table entry for a threat range of 16-20 because no combination weapons, feats, and magic can attain it in the standard d20 rules."

I concur with the logic, but 3d6 nearly disqualifies the argument. The quote could have been easily be subverted with other rules in the game. Far greater threat ranges are possible, as well.