If a 20th level fighter wasn't CR 20, what CR would he be?

[SimonMoon6]

So, suppose we're considering a 20th level fighter (no multi-classing or prestige classes or anything). Suppose he has appropriate Wealth By Level. Suppose we throw out the rule that a 20th level character is CR 20. And suppose that CR isn't mostly arbitrary.

What CR would you suppose the fighter to be? Would feat and magic item choice make a huge difference? (Assume the fighter has the obvious necessary magic items, like a way to fly, etc.)

I tend to think that such a fighter would be a lot lower CR than his level suggests. Typically monsters of such high CR have ridiculous numbers of hit dice or at least a ton of resistances and immunities (including spell resistance) that fighters never get.

[ryu]

Item selection and build mean a lot. With that much money and twenty levels of skills I can make you something only slightly less powerful than a mid-OP wizard of the same level. Granted this would be done with 18 int, a whole pile of UMD, and basically pretending to be a full caster. Are we assuming that's disallowed?

[KillianHawkeye]

A fighter is basically just a pile of feats with a d10 Hit Die and full BAB. Determining its actual threat level will be entirely dependent on feats and equipment.

[BrokenChord]

Using dragons as examples, I think CR is decided independently of equipment, so in that light his written CR would be VERY low. Factoring in NPC Wealth-by-Level, he'd reach a respectable CR 13 or so, but he wouldn't be able to afford the proper magical equipment for higher forms of combat. With player WBL, make that CR 16; he's never going to be CR 20, because at level 20 he will be roughly on par with the party melee character in pretty much every regard, which means he likely won't diminish so much as a tenth of the whole party's resources by the time the fight ends.

[Urpriest]

By appropriate Wealth by Level, do you mean appropriate NPC Treasure/Gear? They're very different numbers.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd find a modest-sized cross section of melee-brute style monsters with similar numbers to a 20th level Fighter, look at their CRs, and start from there.

[ericgrau]

He can stand toe to toe with a CR 20 monster and win though. Maybe instead other classes that are super well optimized are higher than CR 20.

And with level 20 WBL you could cast 9s from staffs if you really wanted. You can dip or if you must you can cc umd, circlet of persuasion and 18 cha it. Or do a billion other things with items if you want. It's that nutso. Only fools blow it all on str & con tomes, when you can practically do anything with it.

[NichG]

The following CR assumes that this fighter is an antagonist to a party of PCs and that the campaign is being played at an optimization level that is halfway between 'WotC default optimization' and 'forum level practical optimization' - so the Fighter uses items to fill the gaps in his kit, but doesn't use e.g. Dark Chaos Shuffle, 0LA template stacking, or other high end PO tricks to basically be a "Fighter" in name only.

With PC-level WBL: ~CR 17 (where a Wizard under the same conditions would be ~CR 23), +1-2 CR if they're a UMD build and have time to prepare the field.

With NPC-level WBL: ~CR 15-16.

With only mundane gear: CR is irrelevant, could be defeated by things like flight from a very low level single PC, but might be about CR 13 in a straight up brawl.

In each case, I'd give about +1 to +Lots CR if the Fighter is willing to blow most of his wealth on one-use effects and can prepare. For example, summoning up an army of elementals or something like that. I'm also counting 'custom item Gate in a Solar' as higher op-level, but with Gate or other things from items the CR is basically the CR of whatever they Gate in.

[cricricri13]

It's pretty hard to monoclass a fighter up to level 20 and not realize you're falling behind the rest of party members. I suppose if you use the propper equipement (wich costs much more than what he should be getting) and enought UMD he could get to CR 20... but with most fighters, it's normally CR16 or so (aproximatelly) wich is kinda sad taking on account it's one of the best classes as secondary. But really. Fighters should consider multiclassing once they have their only-for-fighter feats.

[TiaC]

What if we use the NPC Fighter from Chapter 4 of the DMG as a base?

[Vaz]

CR6.

At CR7, fly is available, and short of items or a couple of races, they cannot fly.

[ryu]

CR6.

At CR7, fly is available, and short of items or a couple of races, they cannot fly.

Or certain feat sets.

[Eldan]

What are we comparing him to? The DMG says that he should be a challenge to a party of four characters. But what are those four characters? Healer, rogue, warmage and fighter? 2 wizards, a cleric, a druid?

That's the problem with challenge rating. You compare to "a party". Which is a very, very broad metric.

I mean, even monsters are quite inconsistent. Compare the Tarrasque to a Solar. They aren't that far apart in CR.

[Erik Vale]

CR is nonlinear. A better example would be any other CR 3 with a Allip.

[Eldan]

True. Tarrasque is "equivalent to":

-A Black Wyrm
-A Balor
-4 Nightshades

Alternatively, the Allip is equivalent to:
-A Centaur
-A Direwolf
-A lion
-A zombie Ogre