Master Spelltheif + Duskblade Viable?

[CyberThread]

Just question, is the combo of duskblade + master spelltheif, viable in so far, of what it allows you, and the abilty to get higher level spells for you to channel?

[Warlocknthewind]

One of my most favorite builds.

It allows you to smack the mage with whatever he had, or refill your duskblade spells (since they're lower level) or lower energy resistance to let your channeled spells to affect such monstahs.

I would recommend getting the Spellsword's channeling as well, so you can channel ANY spell.

Spelltheif & Duskblade are exceptionally complimentary.

[NoACWarrior]

After taking a look at the spell tables for spell thief, a single dip could give you a bit of power.
The issue I found was that out of all the spell choices, you'd only get a few extra spells that duskblade already gets, either at the same level or 1 level lower.

There is however an interesting set of things I found, you could potentially use the full channeling you get at 14th character level to multi-person buff. With all the extra trans, illusion, mind effecting spells you get, there are quite a few good buff spells there (invis, heroism, polymorph) but you'd be hard pressed to buff better than a warweaver could.

With that said, I only will present offensive spells for you to use with arcane channeling (note that I'm quite tired, so I quickly glanced over many spells which qualified):

Some Spellthief spells which can be used with arcane channel offensively.


Abjuration spells:
Dispelling Touch (as a lvl 2 spell) - only useful if you want a 2nd level spell instead of a 3rd

Enchantment Spells:
Inevitable Defeat (Wiz 3) - DoT nonleathal damage, pretty bad damage and ends on a will save but will always do 1st turn damage

Transmutation spells:
Bestow Wound (Wiz 1) - like Vampiric touch but limited to lower of damage sustained or CL, is also a fort negates and has a 10gp material component.
Belker Claws (Wiz 2) - DoT based on CL, with no save and no SR
Amorphous Form (Wiz 3) - turn target to amorphous creature (Some amorphous qualities, lose some magic item effects, lose physical Armor bonus and natural armor, can't attack, can't cast spells that require body parts and material / foci, all Su abilities are lost), the greatest part about this spell is that its one single will save and lasts several rounds without a subsequent save per round.
Corporeal Instability (Wiz 4) - turn target to amorphous mass (can't hold things, lower BLS, blinded, can't cast spells or use magic items, unable to attack, immunity to precision) making subject take wisdom drain each round, but ends on a fort save given as a standard action each round.
Backlash (Wiz 4) - Next spell / SLA automatically backfires and is expended and caster takes some damage, will save to negate but is really strong when you just can't get that AoO lock on the caster.


After I did the search I noticed that many of your offensive spells gained from spellthief belong to transmutation, with either a will or a fort save to negate. Sure the 2nd-4th spells are pretty good, but the 1st level spell is pretty bad. I can't justify doing a dip for 3 great shutdown spells, and 1 mediocre damage spell. Also, the full round channeling is obtained 1 level later, so while these 4 additional spells will allow you to do a lot more lockdown, I don't think its worth a single dip.

[dextercorvia]

If you are taking Spellthief for its spells, then Trickster Spellthief ACF deserves a mention. It is from dragon, though.

[CyberThread]

your missing a key bit, you can hold a spell for an hour, which means, you can take a high level spell, of 6,7,8 or even 9 nine, and wack someone with it in a channel.

[NoACWarrior]

your missing a key bit, you can hold a spell for an hour, which means, you can take a high level spell, of 6,7,8 or even 9 nine, and wack someone with it in a channel.

Ah good point!

The borrowed spells / stolen spells could work in that way, did you want me to start on that as a project for tonight - or did you need it right away?

I think this will take me somewhere around 2-4 hours to complete if that's ok (since we will be looking at every available spell list known to man which qualifies as a touch spell offensively)?

[dextercorvia]

The one time I played a spellthief, I didn't really optimize for sneak attack. I just touched my unconscious foes to steal their spells after the battle. Then I could use them to patch up people, or for the next fight. (This was at level 1).

[gorfnab]

Also if you steal a spell you can't use you could just use it to fuel the feat Arcane Strike for extra to-hit/damage (especially when combined with Power Attack).

[CyberThread]

Ah good point!

The borrowed spells / stolen spells could work in that way, did you want me to start on that as a project for tonight - or did you need it right away?

I think this will take me somewhere around 2-4 hours to complete if that's ok (since we will be looking at every available spell list known to man which qualifies as a touch spell offensively)?




do what you like, lots of tools already, to auto make this list, so to speak.

[NoACWarrior]

OK, so with the fact that the spellthief / duskblade can channel stolen / leant spells - I'm starting up the special duskblade channeling as a spellthief spell listing project.

Defensive channeling is only effective when the duskblade gets the full action channeling and can save on the action economy, much like the warweaver. To defensive channel the duskblade utilizes a sap with a full round attack to hit each of his/her teammates and buff them with the same buff spell.

Spells added will not include a spell already provided on the duskblade's list. Also, only a few base classes will be used for this project - they are more openly encountered in a campaign rather than particular PrCs.

I'll be adding 0th - 9th level spells from 3.5e as being eligible to be channeled offensively or defensively. The lists will be separated further into requiring an enemy or ally as part of the channeling (with the enemy or ally of a particular class).

Offensive Spells

If Cleric Exists
0th level - Inflict minor wounds (PHB)

Defensive Spells

If Bard Exists
0th level - Resistance (PHB)

If Cleric Exists
0th level - Virtue (PHB), Resistance (PHB), Guidance (PHB), Cure Minor Wounds (PHB)

If Druid Exists
0th level - Virtue (PHB), Resistance (PHB), Guidance (PHB), Cure Minor Wounds (PHB)

If Paladin Exists
1st level - Virtue (PHB), Resistance (PHB)

If Wizard Exists
0th level - Resistance (PHB)

[NoACWarrior]

do what you like, lots of tools already, to auto make this list, so to speak.

aww you are no fun...

[Vaz]

your missing a key bit, you can hold a spell for an hour, which means, you can take a high level spell, of 6,7,8 or even 9 nine, and wack someone with it in a channel.

You're limited by your Spellthief level for the level of spells you can steal and then reuse. With Master Spellthief, you can steal spells of a higher level, but you still cannot use that spell.

For example Spellthief 1/Duskblade 19 is limited to using 1st level spells. Or else you could end up doing really stupid things like getting 9th level spells, and with Godblood Spelltheft, turn it into a Miracle Cha+3/day.

[CyberThread]

Can you show me where it says that, it says you can steal any level of spell, once you hit a certain level, and then another spelltheif ability is to actually cast that spell as they see fit, within that hour.





Steal Spell (Su): A spellthief can siphon spell energy away from his target and use it himself. A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from his target. If the target is willing, a spellthief can steal a spell with a touch as a standard action.

The target of a steal spell attack loses one 0-level or 1st-level spell from memory if she prepares spells ahead of time, or one 0-level or 1st-level spell slot if she is a spontaneous caster. A spontaneous caster also loses the ability to cast the stolen spell for 1 minute. If the target has no spells prepared (or has no remaining spell slots, if she is a spontaneous caster), this ability has no effect. A spellthief can choose which spell to steal; otherwise, the DM determines the stolen spell randomly. If a spellthief tries to steal a spell that isn't available, the stolen spell (or spell slot) is determined randomly from among those the target has available.

For example, a 1st-level spellthief who uses this ability against a 1st-level sorcerer could choose to steal magic missile. Assuming the sorcerer knew that spell, a successful steal spell attack would eliminate one 1st-level spell slot and temporarily prevent her from casting magic missile. If the same spellthief stole magic missile from a wizard who had it prepared, the wizard would lose one prepared magic missile spell (but wouldn't lose any other magic missile spells she might also have prepared).

After stealing a spell, a spellthief can cast the spell himself on a subsequent turn. Treat the spell as if it were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so forth. A spellthief can cast this spell even if he doesn't have the minimum ability score normally required to cast a spell of that level. The spellthief must supply the same components (including verbal, somatic, material, XP, and any focus) required for the stolen spell. Alternatively, a spellthief of 4th level or higher can use the stolen spell power to cast any spellthief spell that he knows of the same level or lower (effectively, this gives the spellthief one free casting of a known spell). A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away.

As a spellthief gains levels, he can choose to steal higher-level spells. At 4th level, he can steal spells of up to 2nd level, and for every two levels gained after 4th, the maximum spell level stolen increases by one (up to a maximum of 9th-level spells at 18th level).


A spellthief can't apply metamagic feats or other effects to the stolen spell unless the specific spell stolen was prepared with such an effect. For example, a spellthief of 6th level or higher could steal a wizard's empowered magic missile, but only if he specifically chose to steal empowered magic missile. If he chose to steal an unmodified magic missile, he couldn't steal an empowered magic missile, a silent magic missile, or any other metamagic form of the spell. A spellthief couldn't steal an empowered magic missile from a sorcerer, since the sorcerer applies metamagic effects upon casting and thus has no prepared empowered magic missile spell.









Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of determining what level of spell you can steal. For example, a 4th-level spellthief/4th-level wizard could steal spells of up to 4th level, as if he were an 8th-level spellthief. Your spellthief and arcane spellcaster levels also stack when determining your caster level for all arcane spells. The character described above would have a caster level of 8th for both his spellthief spells and his wizard spells. In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor. You incur the normal arcane spell failure chance when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield

[dextercorvia]

It's down just a little farther from what you quoted:


At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (

Since Master Spellthief, only talks about the level you can steal, not the level you can possess, that is a consequence of RAW.

Ideally it would have been phrased: Your spellthief levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcaster classes (that is, levels of any class that grants arcane spellcasting other than the spellthief) for the purpose of your Steal Spell ability.

[Bloodgruve]

So the question is, Will Master Spellthief allow you to hold and recast the stolen spell or reuse its power?

It seems that it can be read both ways. Specific wording of the feat suggests that it's only adjusting the level of spell you can steal, but not hold. If you can't hold a spell I'd assume you couldn't recast it.

If it would have been worded 'for purpose of determining Steal Spell (Su)...' I'd say it would work. But as it stands I'm inclined to say you can't hold spells past what your Spellthief level allows.

However as a DM I'd rule in favor of allowing the use of the stolen spell.

Blood~

[dextercorvia]

I'm torn on the issue, really. It seems clear to me that that was the intention (the whole ability). However, it turns the entire Spellthief class into a 1 level/1 feat dip to give extra options to other casters.

[Bloodgruve]

From what I've heard the class and abilities look to have a lot of potential but in actual play they range from OK to useless to being a book keeping nightmare.

I haven't actually played one or witnessed one in play though.

The class has other very attractive abilities as you progress, at least as attractive as Steal Spell anyways.

As for a 1lvl Dip and feat investment I don't think its too bad if you want to go that way. You have to go after a caster -and- get sneak attack on it, this situation won't happen very often.

To buff the base class I'd just give it the Bard casting progression and a custom sorc/wiz spell list. Stealing spells and abilities are powerful but can be situational especially at lower levels which most games spend a lot of time in.

Blood~

[CyberThread]

Nope no buffing . Just a duskblade question

[CyberThread]

I'm torn on the issue, really. It seems clear to me that that was the intention (the whole ability). However, it turns the entire Spellthief class into a 1 level/1 feat dip to give extra options to other casters.



Most Dips do that, like TOB late level dipping, monk/fighter feats/ cleric domain devotions / binder ability healing