Optimization help with a martial character for a player

[OldTrees1]

I would like help knowing the options for a non-caster, tier-3 warrior-type character. The player prefers the attack action (anything that can be done as part of a full attack, standard attack and as part of an attack of opportunity). So that excludes most Strikes but includes most combat maneuvers.


Our table allows all 3.0/3.5 splat books and limited Dragon Magazine (one request, after review).
We can't be too cheesy (Chaos Shuffle, Polymorph Any Object, ...) but neither is our table vulnerable to an optimization arms race.
We are currently at 8th level but it would be useful if the suggestions work for a full 1-20.

[Dr.Gara]

The only tier three martial types are those with spells, maneuvers, or psionic powers. This is a part of what makes them a tier three class: A Warblade, very high tier three, who never maneuvers is worse then a fighter. You can't really have a tier three class that doesn't make use of something else to enhance their combat abilities.

[DarkOne-Rob]

Are we talking 3.5 or PathFinder here?

In PF both the Barbarian and the Paladin can reach tier 3 with some focus and optimal choices. The Ranger might make it to the bottom of tier 3 also, but it isn't as easy..

As a martial character trying to be in tier 3 you are attempting to be the best at your chosen role and decent at other things. This involves having access to spells, skills, or something else really special that doesn't involve your already superb combat options. Paladins get spells and some decent class skills (for being the face), Barbarians have some skills that can help out, and Rangers have spells and a lot of skills, relatively (they are just more focused on combat).
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In 3.5 you are pretty much required to do something to break out of the mold, successfully. With prestige classes you might be able to pull it off with a martial character, but you are pretty much required to first function effectively in combat (requiring maneuvers or spells, IMO) and then have meaningful options out of combat. Avoiding both spells and maneuvers means that your friend's character will not by themselves break out of the tier 4 bracket. Either they will need buffs from allies for combat stuff (like flying, hitting enemies with concealment, resisting save-or-suck spells, etc..) or they will lack real choices out of combat (too few skill points to invest meaningfully or spells for utility options).

Sorry...

[OldTrees1]

Are we talking 3.5 or PathFinder here?
3.5 (Although comments about pathfinder might generate ideas)

The player has no problem with manuevers (especially stances), except for strikes.

[HammeredWharf]

A Bloodstorm Blade? I should work as a mix of Dungeon Crasher Fighter, Barbarian with Pounce, a level of Warblade, Knockback, Shock Tooper and some bullrushing. Goliath and human with Jotunbrud are good racial choices. I'm not sure if it can be called T3, but it is rather effective.

[DarkSonic1337]

3.5 (Although comments about pathfinder might generate ideas)

The player has no problem with manuevers (especially stances), except for strikes.

You can sort of get away with focusing on boosts and counters. Focus on the Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind schools.

What exactly is his aversion to strikes though? They're for the most part just attacks with cool rider effects, or attacks that let you bypass some form of defense. Is it that he doesn't like book keeping (in which case counters may also be out), does he not like the fluff of certain strikes or what?

Cause come on, Strike of Perfect Clarity just sounds awesome, and who doesn't like Time Stands Still?

[OldTrees1]

What exactly is his aversion to strikes though? They're for the most part just attacks with cool rider effects, or attacks that let you bypass some form of defense. Is it that he doesn't like book keeping (in which case counters may also be out), does he not like the fluff of certain strikes or what?

The player has no problem with book keeping or fluff that can be changed.
1) Strikes can't be used on an AoO or as part of a Full Attack.
2) The player likes the level of abstraction of an at-will attack and doesn't like the reduced abstraction of unreadied attacks.

[DarkSonic1337]

The player has no problem with book keeping or fluff that can be changed.
1) Strikes can't be used on an AoO or as part of a Full Attack.
2) The player likes the level of abstraction of an at-will attack and doesn't like the reduced abstraction of unreadied attacks.

Well for that matter neither can boosts or counters. Tell him that strikes are specifically there for when you're unable to full attack, or as something to actively weigh against the full attack option. They were designed to give martial characters something valuable to do as a standard action, not just to give them varied options (though that is in itself valuable).

For the second part, real martial arts techniques actually do require you to prepare your body ahead of time, and it really is difficult to preform the same technique in quick succession, because after one technique your body is simply not in the right position to use it again. You do have to "ready" your body, and the way Tome of Battle handles it (at least for Warblades) is quite nice. Swordsages and Crusaders make a lot less sense to me on the re-readying part (a full six seconds for Swordsages and a god preparing your body for you for Crusaders?).


You can FOCUS on boosts and counters, but there are a lot of really nice strikes that fit into almost any theme.

[OldTrees1]

Well for that matter neither can boosts or counters. Tell him that strikes are specifically there for when you're unable to full attack, or as something to actively weigh against the full attack option. They were designed to give martial characters something valuable to do as a standard action, not just to give them varied options (though that is in itself valuable).
Boosts and Counters do not interfere with at-will attack actions. Boosts to attack actions happen to boost AoOs, Full Attacks and Standard Attacks.


For the second part, real martial arts techniques actually do require you to prepare your body ahead of time, and it really is difficult to preform the same technique in quick succession, because after one technique your body is simply not in the right position to use it again. You do have to "ready" your body, and the way Tome of Battle handles it (at least for Warblades) is quite nice. Swordsages and Crusaders make a lot less sense to me on the re-readying part (a full six seconds for Swordsages and a god preparing your body for you for Crusaders?).
See "dislike the reduced abstraction" above. This is not something refluffing can fix.


You can FOCUS on boosts and counters, but there are a lot of really nice strikes that fit into almost any theme.

How would one make a tier 3 character that uses boosts and counters but not strikes?