Help with my build [warblade, 3.5]

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. I built a warblade recently and I was wondering if you guys have ideas for minor optimizing. The current build can definitely be edited . The character is only level 1, so I am getting a head of myself but.... Anyway, here's what I got:

Human warblade. Stats (28 pb): 16, 14, 16, 14, 8, 4

Feats: Power attack, Improved initiative.

Skills: Balance 4, Climb 2, concentration 4, craft food 3, craft wood 1, intimidate 4, jump 4, swim 2, tumble 4

Armor: Leather

Weapons: Falchion, spiked gauntlet, throwing axe (2), Dagger.

Stance: Blood in the water

Maneuvers:Wolf fang strike, sudden leap, moment of perfect mind.

And that's pretty much it. I want to make a sort of striker build primarily, fallowed by tank as a secondary want. Like I said, any help is awesome, and as always, go nuts.

[Darrin]

First, what sourcebooks are available? Online articles? Dragon Magazine?



Armor: Leather


This is the only thing that stands out to me. Short on funds? Why not a chain shirt? Better yet, chain shirt + dastana (OA/A&EG) would be nifty.

Oh... another thing. You took Wolf Fang Strike, but it looks like your primary weapon is a falchion, so your offhand weapon is the spiked gauntlet? Is your DM ok with you letting go of the falchion to make your offhand attacks? If not, then you may need to buy some armor spikes.

[HammeredWharf]

I'd take Hunter's Sense instead of BitW. BitW is good, but only when you can crit reliably, which you can't at lvl 1. I'd pick Improved Initiative as a bonus feat at lvl 5 and pick another feat at lvl 1 or another race. Dragonborn (with the Mind aspect), Raptoran and Warforged come to mind as races that have something good to offer. Have you considered taking a couple of flaws for extra feats? What about not being a Warblade right away and going with Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade X?

[Azoth]

Are you looking to be a crit fisher?

Warblades are a pretty good basis for a fair number of "striker" type builds, but crusader does better "tanking". Both Multiclass well together so that is an added bonus.

If you had better wisdom I would recommend the platform to be a "Dragoon" style character, but the feat Up the Walls is kinda necessary at early levels to get the whole "I jump down on you and impale your head repeatedly for massive damage" thing going.

[Andezzar]

Human warblade. Stats (28 pb): 16, 14, 16, 14, 8, 4Point Buy does not allow attributes below 8 before racial modifiers.


Feats: Power attack, Improved initiative.While going first is nice for a warblade, he does not benefit much from it. You might want to exchange that feat for something else (like improved bull rush if you want to make a charger). Later on (when the game becomes rocket tag) your initiative concerns can be answered with the Moment of Alacrity maneuver.


Weapons: Falchion, spiked gauntlet, throwing axe (2), Dagger. Is there a particular reason, why you want throwing axes? While daggers deal less damage on average (not even 1 point) they are cheaper, lighter and more versatile. They can deal piercing or slashing damage.

[DCraw]

Have you thought about where you want to take the build? In 3.5 you really want to have your full build (or at least as far as you expect the campaign to last) planned out in advance, as the system tends to punish unplanned characters. There really is no such thing as getting ahead of yourself when it comes to 3.5 builds (other than failure to confirm everything with your DM in advance).

As a Warblade, you need to think about what higher level maneuvers you want to use, and what prerequisites they may require. Remember that stances count as a maneuver for the purposes of prerequisites, but they cannot be changed once chosen, unlike maneuvers, which you can trade out one per two levels. At the very least, make sure you have one Iron Heart and one White Raven maneuver before you reach IL5. Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics are some of the most useful maneuvers in the ToB, you really want to get them ASAP.

If you want to take a prestige class, you'll also want to start working on it's prerequisites as soon as possible. Wasting the x4 skill points at first level can really hurt if a PrC requires a certain number of ranks in a skill.

Speaking of skills, I'm not sure I see the point in Craft(Wood). Do you plan on carving things frequently? Likewise with Craft(Food), it's flavourful, but unlikely to see much use in practice. If you're thinking about acquiring and preparing food while out on an adventure, that's Survival. Even then, it's not usually worth spending points on. Buy rations before you leave town, and make unskilled Survival checks if you run out. Starvation penalties are quite rare (this is if your DM actually tracks how much food you have; many/most don't).

[Andezzar]

Don't forget,if there is a cleric in your party you will never lack food and water from level 5 onwards. There are also magic items that seerve the same function and may even be available earlier.

[Metahuman1]

Everlasting Rations is in the magic item compendium and it covers the need for one character to eat fairly easily starting between levels 2-4.

I'll add to the chorus that you might be better off with a different stance, but part of that is that Tiger Claw is admittedly not my favorite school. (I'm not gonna say it's bad, persay, and it's needed for TWF, but I like Diamond Mind, Iron Heart and White Raven better most of the time.) And for a TWF build, I actually think you'd get more mileage out of punishing stance at this level.

And again, Improved initiative, probably not a stellar choice, I'd say wait for a higher level when you have a limited list of warblade bonus feats in front of you and that's one of them.


Beyond that, might wanna be thinking about things you can get to give you bonuses too hit to help pay for power attack.

[HammeredWharf]

And for a TWF build, I actually think you'd get more mileage out of punishing stance at this level.

True, but Punishing Stance is pretty bad later on. That's why I'd get either Leading the Charge or Hunter's Sense. Leading the Charge is good also because it can be used to get White Raven Tactics.

[Andezzar]

Leading the charge is awesome, Especially with a level of Spiritual Lion Totem Barbarian. +IL to damage on every attack of everyone within 30 ft of the warblade adds up pretty quickly. That the damage is a static modifier (i.e. is multiplied on a crit) does not hurt either.

[Teapot Salty]

First, what sourcebooks are available? Online articles? Dragon Magazine?



This is the only thing that stands out to me. Short on funds? Why not a chain shirt? Better yet, chain shirt + dastana (OA/A&EG) would be nifty.

Oh... another thing. You took Wolf Fang Strike, but it looks like your primary weapon is a falchion, so your offhand weapon is the spiked gauntlet? Is your DM ok with you letting go of the falchion to make your offhand attacks? If not, then you may need to buy some armor spikes.

The armour check penalty is a huge turn off.


Point Buy does not allow attributes below 8 before racial modifiers.

While going first is nice for a warblade, he does not benefit much from it. You might want to exchange that feat for something else (like improved bull rush if you want to make a charger). Later on (when the game becomes rocket tag) your initiative concerns can be answered with the Moment of Alacrity maneuver.

Is there a particular reason, why you want throwing axes? While daggers deal less damage on average (not even 1 point) they are cheaper, lighter and more versatile. They can deal piercing or slashing damage.

My dm allows stat dumping. What about quick draw? I like the extra damage, but I carry both.


The one thing I'm absolutely sure about is taking leap attack as soon as possible.

[Metahuman1]

True, but Punishing Stance is pretty bad later on. That's why I'd get either Leading the Charge or Hunter's Sense. Leading the Charge is good also because it can be used to get White Raven Tactics.

True, but on the flip side Punishing Stance can be used to get Iron Heart Surge.

[Red Fel]

True, but Punishing Stance is pretty bad later on. That's why I'd get either Leading the Charge or Hunter's Sense. Leading the Charge is good also because it can be used to get White Raven Tactics.

I disagree with this.

First, Punishing Stance is always good. Your AC becomes less important over time, but 1d6 to every hit is excellent. More importantly, a TWF build is made legitimate by supplemental on-hit damage. In other words, you're making up for the penalties to dual wielding with bonus damage guaranteed on every hit. Punishing Stance does that for you.

Leading the Charge is only good (1) when your party has a lot of melee, and (2) when they're all able to make a charge attack. Thus, if your party is heavy casters, or you're on uneven terrain, or you're already surrounded, Leading the Charge is useless. Even if you can make use of it, they get a bonus that maxes out at +20. Which isn't bad, until you realize that most of them won't have Pounce. Which means they make a charge, followed by a single attack with +20 damage. That's not stupendous. (Note that if they did have Pounce, the RAW says "on damage rolls," meaning on each hit. That's no small potatoes.)

Hunter's Sense is good. I'll grant you. Scent is a great ability to have. But in a choice between knowing somebody is there and being able to pinpoint him within 5 feet, or gaining 1d6 damage on every hit, I'm going to go with the latter.

[Andezzar]

Balance and later flying and/or bounding assault (the maneuver) should take care of uneven terrain. Also don't forget that ally in general includes the initiator himself. So even without anyone else charging the initiator will get the bonus on the charge.

[Shining Wrath]

Rule #1: Learn what your Warblade bonus feats are. Think very carefully before taking something you can get as a bonus feat as a regular feat.

Are you going pure Warblade to level 20? If not, you need to think about Prestige class entrance requirements.

I will cast my vote with those who find Blood in the Water suboptimal. A +1 bonus that requires you to score a critical hit disappears just when you need it most - against foes that are difficult to hit. Further, Power Attack makes you less likely to confirm your criticals. With your low charisma you probably should not count on making much use of White Raven.

Hunter's Sense and Punishing Stance would be my first two recommendations.

As for maneuvers, you need to clarify with your DM if a stance counts towards prerequisites for higher level maneuvers. I've seen the ruling made that only maneuvers count. If stances don't count, you need to pick 2, max 3, schools and take everything from them, so your decision is first "What School" and then "Which L1 maneuver from that school".

[HammeredWharf]

I disagree with this.

First, Punishing Stance is always good. Your AC becomes less important over time, but 1d6 to every hit is excellent. More importantly, a TWF build is made legitimate by supplemental on-hit damage. In other words, you're making up for the penalties to dual wielding with bonus damage guaranteed on every hit. Punishing Stance does that for you.

It's still an average of 3.5 damage per strike. It could matter, of course, but last time I made a Warblade he dealt 300 damage per round at lvl 10. Of course, there are cases where your enemy is left with 1 HP and you go "damn, I wish I chose Punishing Stance", but generally damage isn't an issue when you're melee.


Leading the Charge is only good (1) when your party has a lot of melee, and (2) when they're all able to make a charge attack. Thus, if your party is heavy casters, or you're on uneven terrain, or you're already surrounded, Leading the Charge is useless. Even if you can make use of it, they get a bonus that maxes out at +20. Which isn't bad, until you realize that most of them won't have Pounce.

Wait, melee characters without Pounce? Since we're talking about Warblade optimization, I assume they've got at least one optimized character in the party: the Warblade. And a level of Barbarian is awesome for a Warblade.


Hunter's Sense is good. I'll grant you. Scent is a great ability to have. But in a choice between knowing somebody is there and being able to pinpoint him within 5 feet, or gaining 1d6 damage on every hit, I'm going to go with the latter.

Not knowing where your enemies are is a huge handicap in many cases. The only con of Hunter's Sense is that Hearing the Air exists, but Press the Advantage is very good, too.

[Trasilor]

seriously, nobody put this out there?

Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction)

+1 on Hunters Sense and Punishing Stance. I always liked hunters sense b/c it is useful in and out of combat and one less Tiger Claw maneuver to qualify for nice upper level maneuvers.

Also, adaptive style? It is nice to swing your sword and completely change your maneuvers. Becomes very handy.

IIRC non initiator classes have an initiator level of 1 at first level (not 1/2 or 0) meaning a one level dip in fighter or barbarian early on can push your initiator level a little higher relative to your WB level. This becomes very nice b/c of when you get new stances (table has you getting your next stance one level too soon). Keep in mind both martial study and martial stance are fighter bonus feats - a two level dip in fighter can get you 2 more stances/maneuvers.

Pick a fighting style and stick with it.

If you are going for crit fishing - go with two weapon fighting - you want to roll lots of attacks (more attack rolls = more chances for critical hits). Kukri are not bad (light one handed weapons big crit range). You can then be a DEX based combatant thus reducing MOD - but this is feat heavy - probably need to get flaws or dip into fighter for 2 levels.

If you are going to go power attacking - get a big 2 handed weapon. Greatsword does decent damage, but pole weapons are nice as you get reach (give yourself a pair of spiked gauntlets to threaten/hit baddies that are right next to you). I don't recall the name, but there is a feat that allows you to hit enemies next to you while wielding a reach weapon. Note there a few maneuvers which are based upon the enemies you threaten so a reach weapon is very nice. Also, getting big with a reach weapon becomes very nice. Wands of enlarge person are inexpensive.

I will reiterate what other posters said about planning ahead. This is especially true for any of the initiator classes. Unlike feats, if you lose the prerequisites to a maneuver you still have access to the maneuver. That means, if a maneuver has lots of prerequisites (tiger claw is infamous for this) get the maneuver you want quickly then start swaping out all the prerequisite maneuvers you no longer need - this is one of the reasons I like Hunter's Sense.

[Andezzar]

IIRC non initiator classes have an initiator level of 1 at first level (not 1/2 or 0)Nope it is 0. Generally fractions are rounded down. The rules for initiator level make no exception to this.

[Shining Wrath]

seriously, nobody put this out there?

Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction)
... SNIP ...

Pick a fighting style and stick with it.
... SNIP ...

If you are going to go power attacking - get a big 2 handed weapon. Greatsword does decent damage, but pole weapons are nice as you get reach (give yourself a pair of spiked gauntlets to threaten/hit baddies that are right next to you). I don't recall the name, but there is a feat that allows you to hit enemies next to you while wielding a reach weapon.
... SNIP ...

Short Haft lets you switch between "reach" and "adjacent" as a swift action. Haft Strike lets you treat your pole arm as a double weapon, but it is unclear if the haft is adjacent or reach.

[Andezzar]

Short Haft lets you switch between "reach" and "adjacent" as a swift action. Haft Strike lets you treat your pole arm as a double weapon, but it is unclear if the haft is adjacent or reach.Just get armor spikes. No need to waste feats to attack adjacent foes in the rare situations when you cannot take a 5 ft step back.

[Shining Wrath]

Just get armor spikes. No need to waste feats to attack adjacent foes in the rare situations when you cannot take a 5 ft step back.

So I use my unenchanted armor spikes (D6) instead of my +5 Keen Shocking Spell Storing Holy Halberd (D10+lots)? That seems optimal!

[Andezzar]

So I use my unenchanted armor spikes (D6) instead of my +5 Keen Shocking Spell Storing Holy Halberd (D10+lots)? That seems optimal!On the few occasions where you can't take a step back, yes. I also assumed that they were at least +1 defending armor spikes with GMW cast on them. Of course it is not optimal, but I think investing a feat to be a little better in a situation that comes up very rarely is not worth it.

[Teapot Salty]

Hang on..... Am I blind or does white raven never use diplomacy? That sounds interesting....

[Red Fel]

Hang on..... Am I blind or does white raven never use diplomacy? That sounds interesting....

Off the top of my head, I don't recall any WR maneuvers that require a Diplomacy check. That's not unusual; some disciplines more actively check their skills than others. For example, lots of Diamond Mind maneuvers require a Concentration check, and Tiger Claw's capstone requires a Jump check, but I don't recall many Iron Heart maneuvers triggering Balance, or Devoted Spirit checking Intimidate.

It's funny like that. Sometimes the discipline skill really only applies when using things like the Blade Meditation feat.

Then again, how many people consider a battleaxe to be emblematic of Diplomacy? (Hint: Most of them are Barbarians.)

[Teapot Salty]

Off the top of my head, I don't recall any WR maneuvers that require a Diplomacy check. That's not unusual; some disciplines more actively check their skills than others. For example, lots of Diamond Mind maneuvers require a Concentration check, and Tiger Claw's capstone requires a Jump check, but I don't recall many Iron Heart maneuvers triggering Balance, or Devoted Spirit checking Intimidate.

It's funny like that. Sometimes the discipline skill really only applies when using things like the Blade Meditation feat.

Then again, how many people consider a battleaxe to be emblematic of Diplomacy? (Hint: Most of them are Barbarians.)

Thats really weird. Low charisma white raven "everybody attack this guy, he will kill us all and turn is into zombies while torturing our immortal souls" the flavor just makes no sense.

[Andezzar]

Thats really weird. Low charisma white raven "everybody attack this guy, he will kill us all and turn is into zombies while torturing our immortal souls" the flavor just makes no sense.That's how rank works. No charisma required. :smallwink:

[Sith_Happens]

Oh... another thing. You took Wolf Fang Strike, but it looks like your primary weapon is a falchion, so your offhand weapon is the spiked gauntlet? Is your DM ok with you letting go of the falchion to make your offhand attacks? If not, then you may need to buy some armor spikes.

The reason for Wolf Fang Strike is that Blood in the Water and Sudden Leap both have prerequisites. I assume he plans on trading Wolf Fang Strike away at the first opportunity.


The armour check penalty is a huge turn off.

At low levels most of your skill bonuses aren't that great in the first place so you might as well eat some ACP, especially when you consider that those same low levels are the ones where a few points of AC can make the difference between life and death. By the time either of those things change, you should be able to afford mithral.

As for a suggestion of my own, if you plan on using Sudden Leap you're going to want the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHBII, which makes your Jump DCs not double for not getting a running start. Leaping Dragon Stance does the same thing, but that's what retraining/Psychic Reformation is for.

[Krazzman]

I recommend the cheesy Spiked Chain.
Things that sweety can do:
Attack underwater without Penalities (piercing weapon).
Attack adjacent and reach targets at the same time.
Two Hand for Power Attack.
Weapon Finesseable.
Use Adaptive Weapons (Class feature) to retrain it everytime you find an other exotic weapon you want to use.

Adaptive style is not that important but could be nice.
Also in my experience Punishing Stance + the Iron Heart Strike to attack 2 enemies in reach is awesome at the first few levels. Coupled with a Trip build it really saved my character in a Bossfight. Killing/Tripping a Mook as well as damaging/tripping the Boss.