Harpoon Thrower Optimization

[WhamBamSam]

This is a concept I've had kicking around in the back of my head for a while (basically since seeing Kayzan's Jason Swordrider a few ICs ago and a thread looking for advice on a low op harpoon build not long after that). I haven't really had anything congeal together perfectly though, so I decided to ask the playground at large what their thoughts on the matter are.

I've been somewhat fixated on Factotums for a few reasons.

1) They're generally regarded as being pretty good for ranged builds.

2) Brains Over Brawn adds your Int Mod to the Str check to keep harpooned enemies from moving more than 30ft away from you.

3) If the enemy pulls the harpoon out, it deals as much damage as it did going in including bonus damage such as that gained from Sneak Attack, Knowledge Devotion, high Int, etc.


Other random thoughts:

There are a number of other things that could also increase the Str check without being super Str reliant. The Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld is a nice one.

One problem with Mauling Gauntlets is that Sighting Gloves are also good for ranged builds, and getting two soulmelds on the same

Throwing multiple harpoons in a round is going to require Quick Draw, as the returning property isn't going to work.

It'd be really cool from a fluff standpoint to do a grizzled sea captain type thing primarily focused around mental stats with age bonuses. Zen Archer goes some of the way to accomplishing this, but it'd be nice to have a non-negative Str mod or to somehow circumvent use of Str, since it still applies to damage and the harpoon Str check.

Multiclass penalties are dumb.

Some work in progress builds based on these ideas:

Human Factotum 20/Dvati Factotum 19
Feats EWP (Harpoon), Knowledge Devotion, Darkstalker, Quick Draw, Font of Inspiration x3-4

A simple baseline to start from. An ordinary Factotum with harpoon throwing tacked on. The draw to using Dvati instead of Human, is that a creature harpooned from 30ft away in opposite directions can't move as the only space within 30ft of both harpooners is the one it currently occupies, though I'm not really sure that's worth it.

Azurin Factotum 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Feat Rogue 1/Chameleon 10/Master Thrower 1/Swordsage 2/Warblade 2
1. Factotum 1 - Able Learner, EWP (Harpoon)
2. Factotum 2
3 Factotum 3 - Point Blank Shot
4. Cloistered Cleric 1 - Extend Spell, Knowledge Devotion
5. Feat Rogue 1 - Precise Shot
6. Chameleon 1 - Persistent Spell
7. Chameleon 2 - Floating Feat (DMM Persist until you pick it up with a standard feat, Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)/Bonus Essentia once you pick it up with a standard feat, Extra Turning, Crafting Feats, etc.)
8. Chameleon 3
9. Chameleon 4 - Weapon Focus (Harpoon)
10. Master Thrower 1 - Quick Draw
11. Chameleon 5
12. Chameleon 6 - DMM Persist
13. Chameleon 7
14. Chameleon 8
15. Chameleon 9 - Extra Turning
16. Chameleon 10
17. Swordsage 1
18. Swordsage 2 - Shape Soulmeld (Mauling Gauntlets)
19. Warblade 1
20. Warblade 2

Shamelessly lifting ideas from Piggy Knowles' Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread), I went for a Chameleon build, as it really is a great ranged PrC. Two turning pools for Persisting, a little ToB to spice things up, and the Master Thrower Two With One Blow Thrown Weapon Trick lets us skewer two enemies with the same harpoon (which probably ends up getting a little screwy with RAW, but hey).

Factotum 8/Warblade 7-9/Something

Factotum/Warblades are pretty spiffy, and Warblade can pick up Quick Draw as a bonus feat. With the Hurling Charge feat and some of the various charge maneuvers it's possible to get a harpoon off as part of a charge with some solid bonus damage, though that ends up being just a thing you do on your way into melee.

Venerable Passion's Flame Dragonwrought Earth Kobold Factotum 8/Ranger 3/Chaos Incarnate 4/Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler 3
1. Factotum 1 - Dragonwrought
2. Factotum 2
3. Factotum 3 - EWP (Harpoon)
4. Ranger 1 - Track
5. Ranger 2 - Rapid Shot
6. Ranger 3 - Kobold Endurance, Zen Archer
7. Incarnate 1
8. Incarnate 2
9. Incarnate 3 - Quick Draw
10. Swordsage 1
11. Swordsage 2
12. Incarnate 4 - Knowledge Devotion
13. Factotum 4
14. Factotum 5
15. Factotum 6 - Epic Essentia (If you can't get away with Epic feats on Dragonwrought Kobolds, take a Font or something instead)
16. Factotum 7
17. Factotum 8
18. Swashbuckler 1 - Font of Inspiration, Weapon Finesse (if allowed, Chaos Shuffle it and Track for more Fonts)
19. Swashbuckler 2
20. Swashbuckler 3

My attempt at an Int/Wis focused, hard bitten old sea dog lizard. Passion's Flame is used instead of Wyrm of War because the latter is on my personal ban list of Kobold cheese. If you can use Wyrm of War, that's basically optimization on easy mode, and you'll have room for a lot more stuff. I also think that Passion's Flame is a nice thematic tie in, as the fluff that comes to mind for this character involves turning away from his lawful Earth Kobold community toward his (aquatic) draconic heritage, and living a long life borne upon the chaos of the sea. If your DM rules that Dragonwrought Kobolds aren't True Dragons, losing the Archetype isn't really all that bad. We're mostly using the race to pump mental stats. Swashbuckler is really only here because it's thematic and I'm tired. Int to damage again is nice, but not three levels nice. More Factotum or Incarnate might be a stronger choice. Still, it comes out pretty nice if you can ignore the multiclass penalties. All totaled it's...

Int+Str (-2 racial or +2 racial when raging)+4 (Kobold Endurance) to the Harpoon Str check.
Int+Wis+Incarnate Avatar+Knowledge Devotion to hit
2x Int+Sighting Gloves+Knowledge Devotion+2d6 Sneak Attack (Assassin's Stance)+more Sneak Attack (Cunning Strike) to harpoon damage.

So, thoughts on any of these, or on any other ways to go about harpooner builds?

[Warlocknthewind]

Needs more power throw

[CyberThread]

You got the power, and the idea down, but you are really lacking in technique.


No where in this entire post, do I see you talking about keeping your shoulders rolled back, your knees bent, or anything even about arching slightly higher for targets farther away, not just throwing harder.


I mean come on man or woman; how can you ask us to take you seriously , if you don't even cover the basics , of how you will throw it?

[Darrin]

One problem with Mauling Gauntlets is that Sighting Gloves are also good for ranged builds


I was going to say, Double Chakra is a thing... but your builds have no meldshaper levels outside of Shape Soulmeld, so qualifying for it would be troublesome.



Throwing multiple harpoons in a round is going to require Quick Draw, as the returning property isn't going to work.


Lesser Crystal of Return is only 300 GP. Add Fleshgrinding (+2 enhancement, BoVD) for more giggles. Make them out of Stygian Ice for +1d6 cold damage per round and a DC 12 Will save or take 2 Wis damage. Unfortunately, there's a Ref 15 save to avoid dealing the same amount of damage to the weapon.



It'd be really cool from a fluff standpoint to do a grizzled sea captain type thing primarily focused around mental stats with age bonuses. Zen Archer goes some of the way to accomplishing this, but it'd be nice to have a non-negative Str mod or to somehow circumvent use of Str, since it still applies to damage and the harpoon Str check.


I was going to say, anthropomorphic baleen whale (albino, of course) has a Wis bonus but unfortunately no Int bonus, and the three monstrous humanoid HD don't really fit into your builds.

[WhamBamSam]

Needs more power throwProbably a good idea. I'll try throwing together a few builds with Brutal Throw/Power Throw worked in.


I was going to say, Double Chakra is a thing... but your builds have no meldshaper levels outside of Shape Soulmeld, so qualifying for it would be troublesome. One of them has Incarnate 4, and I did briefly toy with the idea of one with Incarnate 9 or 10, but it wasn't quite coming together to my liking somehow. Might try again at some point.


Lesser Crystal of Return is only 300 GP. Add Fleshgrinding (+2 enhancement, BoVD) for more giggles. Make them out of Stygian Ice for +1d6 cold damage per round and a DC 12 Will save or take 2 Wis damage. Unfortunately, there's a Ref 15 save to avoid dealing the same amount of damage to the weapon. Not a bad idea, though all of this also runs into the problem that you need to magic up a bunch of different harpoons, which will get expensive. Like TWF only worse.


I was going to say, anthropomorphic baleen whale (albino, of course) has a Wis bonus but unfortunately no Int bonus, and the three monstrous humanoid HD don't really fit into your builds.Good old anthro baleen whales. You could fit Factotum 8/Warblade 9 on top of the RHD. Though it might be better to just use a spry young one for that purpose rather than fooling with old age and Zen Archery.