3.5 Healing Belt: Broken?

[Chester]

What do you think: is a Healing Belt broken?

Basically, a party member and an NPC plan to exchange gifts as a bit of a "peace offering" to ease previous tensions. The player is a Duskblade who has taken on the role of the front-line fighter, as our scrappy little party has no official tank. So, the healing belt seems like a good choice. More often than not, he deals quite a bit of damage, becomes a primary target, and hits the ground with zero or fewer HP.

But is it too good an item? The alternative could be a few potions of cure serious wounds, or maybe a wand. I just want to get some feedback on the belt first. I feel like it's a "must have" item, but can't shake the notion that it's broken.

[Svata]

No, not broken, but still very good. Later you'll probably switch to wands, as the duskblade would (most likely) be better off with a Belt of Giant Strength, or a Belt of Battle (Belt of Battle is a bit cheesy, though).

[ryu]

Eh. Healing is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things and especially in a non-threatened situation like after a brutal fight just happened. Would you like to see how efficient we can get with a wand of lesser vigor easily affordable to a party of four at level 1?

[John Longarrow]

In game, the front line fighter is about the last person that should be using the belt but the one that should be benefitting the most.

Put it on the Cleric or Wizard. Makes both more supportive at lower levels. Not broken though, just makes the front line tank more survivable.

Just remember, using it provokes.

[Cloud]

Healing belt definitely isn't broken, and compared to wands of less vigor is probably at best good.

Though using it doesn't provoke, it uses the command activation method, not manipulation. Also despite how ineffective it is it's still good because anyone can use it, and the obviously infinite charges, and dropping 4d8 at level 3 might almost maybe be worth a standard action.

[Agincourt]

Just remember, using it provokes.

Healing belts are command word activation. Command word activated items do not provoke attacks of opportunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm)

[Story]

In game, the front line fighter is about the last person that should be using the belt but the one that should be benefitting the most.

Put it on the Cleric or Wizard.

You don't have to "put it on" anyone. There's no attunement requirement.

[HaikenEdge]

You don't have to "put it on" anyone. There's no attunement requirement.

Now you've got me thinking like the Duskblade should walk around with the belt on his shoulder like he's a UFC champion.

[Person_Man]

Outside of low level gameplay, healing is functionally unlimited in 3.5 D&D for any gaming group that invests in it in any meaningful way. The Healing Belt is just one such method. But there are many, many others. So I would not say that it is "broken" unless your group has decided that all such methods of healing are broken.

[Chester]

Put it on the Cleric or Wizard. Makes both more supportive at lower levels. Not broken though, just makes the front line tank more survivable

Yeah, I should have mentioned....we don't have a Cleric, and our "Wizard" is a Dread Necromancer with Tomb-Tainted Soul. (We made characters without discussing party needs / what others are playing; makes for some interesting gameplay.)

So, I'm getting that Healing Belts aren't broken, but a Wand of Lesser Vigor might be a more fun option?

[HaikenEdge]

Yeah, I should have mentioned....we don't have a Cleric, and our "Wizard" is a Dread Necromancer with Tomb-Tainted Soul. (We made characters without discussing party needs / what others are playing; makes for some interesting gameplay.)

So, I'm getting that Healing Belts aren't broken, but a Wand of Lesser Vigor might be a more fun option?

Not necessarily more fun, but maybe more efficient?

[Fouredged Sword]

A healing belt is a really good investment at 1-3rd level, before you have the funds to throw down a wand of lesser vigor. The wand FAR out stripes the belt in that it does not take an item slot and can heal practically unlimited amounts of HP a day (550 hp per wand). The belt, on the other hand, does not require a particular class or UMD access. This makes them more low level friendly.

Past 3rd level, they don't do enough to really be worth the item slot. NOTE, if you can use the MIC rules to items with multiple effects, adding a healing belt additional effect on everyone's belt is a great idea. It isn't expensive, and the ability for anyone in the party to stabilize someone 3/day as a standard action is nice.

Another great idea is to put one on a familiar or undead controlled by the dread necromancer. It takes no check to use, so a skeletal squirrel can run up and heal someone without wasting anyone's actions during combat. Put 1-10 undead fine animals in the duskblade's pants. Have then ordered to use a charge whenever he says a phrase. Now he can use a free action to gain 1-10d8 healing from 1-10 readied standard actions.

This is getting into cheese though. Delicious delicious cheese. MMMMMmmmmmm....

[Agincourt]

So, I'm getting that Healing Belts aren't broken, but a Wand of Lesser Vigor might be a more fun option?

"Fun" can be pretty subjective, but no, I would not call Wands of Lesser Vigor more fun. They are probably more efficient, by which I mean, they are cheap, but better able to exactly give you the healing you need. A Healing Belt has a lot of variable to it. For one charge, you get 2d8 healing. Usually you are going to heal in the neighborhood of 7-11 HP, but there's a ~10% chance of healing 2-4 and also a ~10% chance of healing 14-16. That kind of variance can lead to lost charges. A Wand of Lesser Vigor just heals 11 HP, over an 11 round period. It is very easy to calibrate the exact number of charges a character needs.

Furthermore, a Healing Belt that has used all its charges is useless until tomorrow. A Wand can just keep using as little or as many charges as you need until it is expended. If one day you need 1 charge, and the next day you need 9, there's no problem either way. With a Healing Belt, that sort of change in day-to-day need makes it hard to rely on as your only means of healing.

Because of the variance in Healing Belts, they are arguably more fun. It's a corner case, but a character that needs to heal themselves right now, can lead to a little drama with the dice rolling. There is no drama in a Wand of Lesser Vigor. On the other hand, healing can be one of the more boring aspects of roleplaying. The less game time that has to be used on healing, the more time that can be spent on the fun parts of the game.

[lordzya]

Healing Belts are clearly OP, it's all in the math. Using the equations for creating magic items it should cost several thousand gold, not the same as a single potion. If you allow them then all items need their pricing tweaked to reflect a magic-item saturated setting. Otherwise, run the math yourself and re-price the belt.

[HaikenEdge]

Healing Belts are clearly OP, it's all in the math. Using the equations for creating magic items it should cost several thousand gold, not the same as a single potion. If you allow them then all items need their pricing tweaked to reflect a magic-item saturated setting. Otherwise, run the math yourself and re-price the belt.

Actually, potions and other one-use items are most often incredibly overpriced and horribly inefficient, to a point where, spending your money into them is like doing what nature calls for into the wind. For that matter, combat healing is a really bad choice to spend actions on, unless it's a Heal spell, or it's to keep somebody from being killed.

[Agincourt]

Healing Belts are clearly OP, it's all in the math. Using the equations for creating magic items it should cost several thousand gold, not the same as a single potion. If you allow them then all items need their pricing tweaked to reflect a magic-item saturated setting. Otherwise, run the math yourself and re-price the belt.

Potions are underpowered. Comparing Healing Belts to one of the more underpowered items in the game, Potions of Cure Serious Wounds, is probably not the way to hit the sweet spot of well-balanced.

That being said, someone earlier in the thread hit on a problem many items in the Magic Item Compendium have: there's no attunement period. One fix I recommend for just about every item in the MIC that has a number of charges per day is that you not let the players swap them out. Require them to wear them all day to gain the benefit.

[Chester]

Still . . . as I understand it (and I could be wrong), you can't use a wand unless you have the ability to cast the spell. A Duskblade couldn't use a Wand of Lesser Vigor because it's a divine spell, and he can't use a Wand of Fireballs if he doesn't have Fireball on his spell list. Is that accurate?

If so, then the wand is a moot point. If not, then the wand's the way to go.

[Agincourt]

Still . . . as I understand it (and I could be wrong), you can't use a wand unless you have the ability to cast the spell. A Duskblade couldn't use a Wand of Lesser Vigor because it's a divine spell, and he can't use a Wand of Fireballs if he doesn't have Fireball on his spell list. Is that accurate?

If so, then the wand is a moot point. If not, then the wand's the way to go.

That is more or less accurate. To activate a wand, a character needs to have the spell on their spell list. (Divine or arcane actually does not affect it, but there is often a correlation as to whether a spell is divine and it is on a class spell list.)

If the spell is not on a character's spell list, then you need Use Magic Device to activate the wand. The DC to activate a Wand is 20, regardless of the spell level for the wand.

[dextercorvia]

I actually recommend a Belt of Healing and a Wand of Lesser Vigor. The cost the same, but provide complementary benefits. The Belt handles the usual small amounts of healing you might need during overland travel (expected value of one Random encounter, and possibly a couple days on the road. When you need more, it still soaks some, to make your Wand last longer.

Any character with a decent Charsima, and even a few cross class ranks, can get about a 50/50 shot of the Wand working, and trying again is no big deal if you are out of combat. The 5% chance of shutting down for the day is pretty small, but you can carry two wands if you roll low a lot.

[Metahuman1]

That is more or less accurate. To activate a wand, a character needs to have the spell on their spell list. (Divine or arcane actually does not affect it, but there is often a correlation as to whether a spell is divine and it is on a class spell list.)

If the spell is not on a character's spell list, then you need Use Magic Device to activate the wand. The DC to activate a Wand is 20, regardless of the spell level for the wand.

Wrong. From the SRD.


Use a Wand

Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

If you have the spell on your list, you don't need to make any checks. Just spend the charge and the action. If you don't, DC 20 check.

[Agincourt]

Wrong. From the SRD.



If you have the spell on your list, you don't need to make any checks. Just spend the charge and the action. If you don't, DC 20 check.

I don't see where you are disagreeing with me.

[Metahuman1]

Your saying that if the character doesn't have the spell on there spell list, they can't activate a wand no matter what, no, not even then. If they do have it on there spell list, they get the privilege of trying a DC 20 UMD check to attempt to activate it.

I'm saying that if they don't have a spell on there spell list, then they need to make a DC 20 UMD check to activate it, and if they do have the spell on there spell list, they get the privilege of not needing to make a UMD check, that they may then just flat activate it with no other hoops to jump through for the cost of the action and the charge.

[dextercorvia]

Your saying that if the character doesn't have the spell on there spell list, they can't activate a wand no matter what, no, not even then. If they do have it on there spell list, they get the privilege of trying a DC 20 UMD check to attempt to activate it.

I'm saying that if they don't have a spell on there spell list, then they need to make a DC 20 UMD check to activate it, and if they do have the spell on there spell list, they get the privilege of not needing to make a UMD check, that they may then just flat activate it with no other hoops to jump through for the cost of the action and the charge.

No, he's not. It's in the 2nd paragraph of the post you quoted.

[hymer]

Your saying that if the character doesn't have the spell on there spell list, they can't activate a wand no matter what, no, not even then.

No, he wrote:


If the spell is not on a character's spell list, then you need Use Magic Device to activate the wand. The DC to activate a Wand is 20, regardless of the spell level for the wand.


If they do have it on there spell list, they get the privilege of trying a DC 20 UMD check to attempt to activate it.

No, he didn't write that anywhere I've looked.

[ericgrau]

Depends on optimization level. They are much stronger than core items as pointed out. Others are referring to the limited benefit of any hp healing in high optimization. So it all depends on your particular gaming group. If you use potions regularly, or healing, then ya it is much better. Either way it won't be campaign shattering.

Even if you don't have one of the 5 classes that can use a wand of CLW or lesser vigor, you can start UMDing with only a +10 modifier because you can retry without much drawback. So by level 4-6. You may want a spare in case you roll a 1 and then can't use the wand for 24 hours. And/or 2 people with UMD.

[Metahuman1]

No, he's not. It's in the 2nd paragraph of the post you quoted.

*blinks. does double re-read.*

So it is. And this children is why if my company were sensible they would not ask me to be awake and at work before noon one day a week, thus forcing me to spend Sunday night and all day Monday fighting my body clock.

My apologies.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't think so. It eats a body slot, costs actions, and is limited per day. Compared to CLW wands, it has staying power over long periods of time, but you can't burst with it.'

Also, potions really, really suck. They're overpriced and cost way too many actions. Try not to use them as your baseline for balance.

[Metahuman1]

Given that this is a low level party that doesn't have a cleric, honestly, I'd think about giving them ALL a healing belt and two wands of lessor vigor for the party. That way they've all got an HP burst if they drop in combat, and they've all got reliable access to out of combat healing in there down time with a couple of skill checks. Makes dead PC's less likely at this level.

[Adverb]

The healing belt is very good at doing a thing which, in a high-op game, is a waste of a combat action. In a low-op game, it provides a necessary feature very efficiently.

[eggynack]

I don't think so. It eats a body slot, costs actions, and is limited per day.
The first thing doesn't seem particularly relevant. Adding a healing belt onto an existing belt costs only 375 extra GP, and then adding a constitution bonus on top of that costs nothing more than usual. It's more expensive, but it's not like you're barred from having both a healing belt and a belt of battle at the same time.

[Fouredged Sword]

One of my favored items is a combination healing belt, belt of the wide earth, and belt of +X con. It's not expensive, and it is wonderfully flavorful in an odd kind of way. I love putting it on a druid who normally does not have access to teleport.

[Slipperychicken]

The first thing doesn't seem particularly relevant.

It is when it's competing with a Belt of Giant Strength, or a Belt of Battle. Granted, I do assume that GMs don't let you stack their effects via custom item rules.

[Coidzor]

Your players may need to take a gander at these two (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1520.0)threads (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0). Also, you probably will find them of interest as well. At least educational.

And while the ability to throw down some extra healing on himself might come in handy, it mostly sounds like your Duskblade needs better defenses, such as a miss chance if he's not already rocking one.

[Rubik]

It is when it's competing with a Belt of Giant Strength, or a Belt of Battle. Granted, I do assume that GMs don't let you stack their effects via custom item rules.Well, those rules ARE hard-coded into the MIC (y'know, where the healing belt is). It takes the suggestions in the DMG and allows them as part of the actual ruleset, so anyone can do it without asking, so long as the MIC is an allowed source.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, those rules ARE hard-coded into the MIC (y'know, where the healing belt is). It takes the suggestions in the DMG and allows them as part of the actual ruleset, so anyone can do it without asking, so long as the MIC is an allowed source.

Aren't custom items subject to GM approval?

[Rubik]

Aren't custom items subject to GM approval?So long as the individual effects are standard, and the item slot doesn't change, the MIC says nothing about DM approval (at least, any more than anything else in the game requires approval).

[lunar2]

get an eternal wand of lesser vigor (or 2) instead. both the DN and the duskblade can use them, and they never run out of charges, but each can only be used twice a day.

normally, only arcane spells can be made into eternal wands (which is a stupid rule), and lesser vigor is a cleric and druid only spell. but certain creatures, like couatls and some true dragons, cast as a sorcerer, but also have access to the cleric list. when a couatl or a dragon casts lesser vigor, it is an arcane spell, so eternal wands of lesser vigor are perfectly RAW legal, and not even particularly cheesy (since some dragons are known to craft magic items).

alternatively, just have the rest of the party take tomb tainted soul, and let the DN be the designated healer. he does get what is essentially an at will inflict light wounds, so you might as well take advantage of it.

[Coidzor]

Aren't custom items subject to GM approval?

Custom item =/= stacking existing magical items.

[eggynack]

Custom item =/= stacking existing magical items.
Indeed. Per the rules, a healing belt will only compete with a belt of battle to the tune of 375 GP (or any magical belt, actually, with any quantity of enchantments), and it will not compete with a belt of giant's strength at all. Those are just the rules of the game, free of DM adjudication, with anything else being on the rule 0/house rule spectrum.