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lisiecki
2007-02-07, 11:22 AM
Hello all
Next week im going to be starting my long term 3.5 game (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=310322#). In the past ive run some one shots but nothing were the math invloved was important.
The game im starting is an Eberron game that i hope will last a while, but im not sure what the apporprate CR of the things i throw at my players should be.
the party is
a Warforged with a LA of +5 from the MM
a cleric with a La of +1
a level 1 pali
and 3 other level 1 pcs that have yet to be determened. the party pushed for the Warforged bodyguard, and i did warn them that i would be taking him in to account when populated the world.
so what is the apporprate CR to give them in there adventures?

thanks

Pete

daggaz
2007-02-07, 11:38 AM
Hmm Im not so good with the LA thing yet, but at any rate, you have what, six party members? So whatever ECL you get, you should probably bump it up a notch since the game was *cough cough* more or less balanced around a party of four.

Other than that, there is a pretty decent core encounter calculator for figuring this stuff out on the SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/encounterCalculator.htm

Just gotta figure out your parties ECL first, really. Hmm and on second glance, seems like this calculator has up to six slots for party members, so hopefully it figures that into the final EL.

Yakk
2007-02-07, 11:43 AM
Note that the party you described is very unbalanced.

Second, "a warforged with a LA of +5" isn't enough information. How many monster HD does this warforged have (possibly none)? What character classes does this warforged have (possibly none, but both can't be none)?

lisiecki
2007-02-07, 11:54 AM
The player requested something called a "warfroged charger" iirc
i said i would look it over, and theres every chance i may say no, but im tempted to let him have it just so the other players can see that it wasnt the best idea.

Douglas
2007-02-07, 12:51 PM
According to the crystalkeep races index (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf), a Warforged Charger has 4 racial hit dice and a level adjustment of +4. That makes him, with no class levels at all, level 8. With the rest of the party at level 1 (except the cleric with his +1 level adjustment), pretty much anything that can give him even a minor challenge will be able to one-hit anyone else in the party without even trying. Give everyone else levels to match, come up with an 8-level progression that spreads out the racial bonuses and hit dice over 8 levels and start him at level 1 of it, or just ban the race completely. Anything else is a very bad idea.

Hurlbut
2007-02-07, 12:53 PM
According to the crystalkeep races index (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf), a Warforged Charger has 4 racial hit dice and a level adjustment of +4. That makes him, with no class levels at all, level 8. With the rest of the party at level 1 (except the cleric with his +1 level adjustment), pretty much anything that can give him even a minor challenge will be able to one-hit anyone else in the party without even trying. Give everyone else levels to match, come up with an 8-level progression that spreads out the racial bonuses and hit dice over 8 levels and start him at level 1 of it, or just ban the race completely. Anything else is a very bad idea.
I wouldn't touch the charger with a 10-foot pole when considering for allowing PC races. It's too much of a brute, intelligent wise.

Thomas
2007-02-07, 12:56 PM
Insufficient data.

What are the actual levels of the characters?


I'll cover the basics to, start with:

Character Level means a character's Hit Dice; in most cases, the sum of a character's class levels (both a 3rd-level Paladin and a multiclassed 2nd-level Rogue/1st-level Fighter have a character level of 3).

Effective Character Level is just that; it's only calculated for characters with a level adjustment (a LA greater than +0, to be specific). ECL equals Character Level plus Level Adjustment. A hobgoblin has LA +1 and no racial hit dice (the HD in the Monster Manual is a Warrior level); so a 3rd-level Fighter hobgoblin has ECL 3 + 1 = 4.

For standard PHB characters (LA +0, no racial hit dice, etc.), ECL is the same as character level.

ECL is only calculated for PCs, cohorts, and NPCs who gain experience as PCs. It is used to figure both the average level of the party (so you can create challenging encounters), and to calculate experience points earned. (If your ECL is 1-3, you get 300 XP for a CR 1 monster, divided by the number of PCs in the party, and so on.)

The above-mentioned hobgoblin, with ECL 4, is equivalent to a 4th-level human fighter; both have at least 6,000 XP, and earn the same amount of XP from the same challenges.

Everyone in a party should start at the same ECL, so if one of the characters is a 1st-level paladin of a standard race (no LA, or rather LA +0), the others can't have LA either.


Once everyone has the same ECL, creating encounters is easy. The tables for how many CR X make up a EL (Encounter Level) Y encounter are in the DMG, along with the tables for which percentage of encounters should be what EL. If you don't like calculating it in your head, there's online calculators (but I get the exact same results doing the numbers in my head as the calculators give, so they've got no "secret" to calculating ELs).

As a general guideline, though, I'll suggest this (X will be the average party level):

X-1 and below: easy encounter, the party will breeze through it.
X: regular encounter, the party won't have trouble.
X+1 and X+2: challenging encounter, with bad luck or poor tactics, a PC might die.
X+3 and X+4: tough encounter, somebody will probably die, or the party will be badly damaged afterwards.
X+5 and above: the party might win, but it's more likely they'll be annihilated. They almost certainly won't be able to stand another encounter. (And if they had several encounters without rest before this one, they probably won't make it.)


Now, if you're running a 1st to 3rd-level party, the above doesn't quite hold true. You should stick to ELs 1-2, maybe EL 3 once per adventure. Stick to low CRs - up to 1 (a CR 2 opponent may be easy, manageable, or totally overpowering; they vary a lot in power, and the variance can spell doom for a low-level party).

Thomas
2007-02-07, 12:58 PM
The player requested something called a "warfroged charger" iirc
i said i would look it over, and theres every chance i may say no, but im tempted to let him have it just so the other players can see that it wasnt the best idea.

What will actually happen is that the overpowered ECL 8 character will make the ECL 1 and ECL 2 characters feel like useless chumps, bruising its way through encounters (unless you throw CR 6-10 opponents at the party, which will destroy everyone ELSE in one round).

No good can come out of allowing this discrepancy in power.

oriong
2007-02-07, 12:59 PM
Don't give them the warforged charger. The party might think they want it but they really, really don't because anything that will be a challenge for it will wipe them out.

So really you just have to say no. They don't get a bodyguard and that pretty much has to be that. The only game this might work in would be a low-combat game where most of the action takes place around a table or elsewhere with the warforged just acting as 'backup'.

Not to mention you should just deny the warforged charger alltogether, they're not meant to be PCs, they're meant to be war machines. +10 to Strength and Con with a vast gaping void where there mental ability scores are supposed to be.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-07, 02:37 PM
If you want your players to play with monstrous races play a mid level game (5+) and give them X LA for free. Otherwise just don't allow it, no good can come of it.

Thomas
2007-02-07, 08:14 PM
If you want your players to play with monstrous races play a mid level game (5+) and give them X LA for free. Otherwise just don't allow it, no good can come of it.

That's not fair to players who don't want a character with LA.

The way to facilitate PCs with LA is to start everyone at ECL X; then you can play a PC with a LA of X-1.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-07, 08:44 PM
That's not fair to players who don't want a character with LA.
The rules are not fair to players who want to play barbie doll dress up, I fail to see how that's an issue :)

If as a DM you want players to play monstrous races you use rules which don't heavily punish them for doing so, and the normal rules do so ... whatever ECL you start at, even buy off doesn't really help against the higher LAs.

Thomas
2007-02-07, 09:14 PM
The rules are not fair to players who want to play barbie doll dress up, I fail to see how that's an issue :)

So everyone should be FORCED to play a race with LA? That doesn't make sense.

Giving everyone free LA up to +2 would really gimp those who don't take advantage of it; anything higher would be immensely unfair.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-07, 09:24 PM
So everyone should be FORCED to play a race with LA?Sure, if the DM wants people to play LA'd races he rewards them for doing so. It's the DM's game, plenty of them force people to only play PHB races.

Raum
2007-02-07, 10:26 PM
It's the DM's game
Sigh. The sentiment expressed by those four words ruins a lot of games.

Thomas
2007-02-08, 12:01 AM
Yeah, especially when the actual message is "It's the DMs game, he's free to be unfair and arbitrary and punish players for no reason whatsoever."

There's no comparison between giving free LA but not compensating for it, and making everyone play LA +0 races (or PHB races).

If you're using LA +1 or +2 races, they're balanced just fine, especially at the start; 1st and 3rd -level characters can engage the same encounters just fine, and LA buy-off negates their LA by 9th level.

lordmarcoos
2007-02-08, 12:19 AM
Just decide a starting ECL and allow them a damned buyoff, it's not perfect, but it's at least decently balanced, and if you start at a mid level, then anyone up to an LA of +2'll just have it bought off, and just be about half a level behind. Big whoop.

AngelSword
2007-02-08, 12:41 AM
I think the best solution (other than eliminating the Charger) is to give the players a set number of levels. Those levels can be used to buy character class levels, or they can be used to offset level adjustment. That way, people who don't want to play an adjusted race don't have to.

PinkysBrain
2007-02-08, 01:17 AM
LA buy off does not allow you to effectively play high ECL races in the same game as good characters ... well not unless they have their own build in casting, in which case it breaks down (giving LA for free too).

I guess if you really believe in the validity of the LA system there is always a third alternative, simply tell people to start with a race of at least X ECL. There is undeniably a connection between that and forcing people to only play PHB races, now isn't there? ;)

oriong
2007-02-08, 01:24 AM
There is undeniably a connection between that and forcing people to only play PHB races, now isn't there? ;)


uh...no.

That's not a valid connection at all.

The PHB races are the races the game was designed to be played with. they are the default and the basis on which the system is built. LA races are, for the most part, an afterthought. They are the 'okay, some people may want to do this so we'll slap something together'.

That's like saying DM's are 'forcing' players to follow the rules of the game. That's how it's meant to go.

Thomas
2007-02-08, 01:48 AM
LA buy off does not allow you to effectively play high ECL races in the same game as good characters ... well not unless they have their own build in casting, in which case it breaks down (giving LA for free too).

Yes, it does. A few levels after you've bought off all your LA, you're the same level as the PCs with no LA, just a few thousand XP behind (so you level later than they do). While you're "behind" in ECL, you're getting more XP for the same encounters, which lets you catch up. It allows you to play a perfectly balanced character of a low-LA race. High ECL (LA and racial hit dice) characters can be poor (melee monster builds tend to work fine, though).

daggaz
2007-02-08, 06:27 AM
I can definitely see the point that there is no difference between FORCING players to pick PHB races (which the vast majority of DM's do), and forcing players to pick a monster race of LA x.


Arguing that the game was designed around PHB races is both besides the point (original intent of the game has no bearing on the issue when the issue is the act of forcing, not the difference between x race or y monster), as well as self-defeating, (when you are talking about a game which was designed to allow the player to do 'anything you want, within the flavor of the world, which you get to decide.' Its in the DMG.)


If you guys wanna be completely fair to Pinky, then you gotta take your rulings both ways. If Pinky should use LA-buying or xp bonuses to balance things in case a player wants to be non-monster in his monster game, then you should be making sure that a player can always play a monster race in your PHB-races-only-cuz-thats-how-the-game-was-designed-games, albeit at the appropriate balancing penalty.


Other than that, yeah, its crazy to have a 6th level warforged in a party of 1st lvl characters, for all the reasons mentioned above. Dont do it.

Yakk
2007-02-08, 08:28 AM
I can definitely see the point that there is no difference between FORCING players to pick PHB races (which the vast majority of DM's do), and forcing players to pick a monster race of LA x.

There is a difference.



Arguing that the game was designed around PHB races is both besides the point (original intent of the game has no bearing on the issue when the issue is the act of forcing, not the difference between x race or y monster), as well as self-defeating, (when you are talking about a game which was designed to allow the player to do 'anything you want, within the flavor of the world, which you get to decide.' Its in the DMG.)

When playing a game, you start out with the core rules. Then you add/remove rules to the core.

When you add/remove rules to the core like "you get 2 free LA", one should step back and evaluate the impact of that rule.

In this case, it means that players who choose a non-LA race end up with weaker characters. I'm all for letting players pick weaker characters if that is their character concept (ie, weaker) -- but with no reason why playing a LA+0 character should generate a more ineffective character, the change to the core rules seems pretty damn pointless.

Now, disallowing non-PHB races -- that is just disallowing certain optional rules. Yes, optional -- monster races with LA are all optional rules, designed to be added if the DM wants them. The LA and racial HD costs are an attempt to balance monster characters against "traditional" races.



If you guys wanna be completely fair to Pinky, then you gotta take your rulings both ways. If Pinky should use LA-buying or xp bonuses to balance things in case a player wants to be non-monster in his monster game, then you should be making sure that a player can always play a monster race in your PHB-races-only-cuz-thats-how-the-game-was-designed-games, albeit at the appropriate balancing penalty.

If Pinky isn't telling his players "non-monster characters will be gimped"...

The problem with Pinky's solution is that it is crude. LA are probably too expensive, but so are monster HD. But they aren't free -- and saying "2 points of LA" has a rather strange bias on character selection.

A discount on the price of monster HD by HD type -- good! Monster HD aren't price that correctly.

A percent change in LA (say half) rather than a strait subtraction -- good. Probably reflects the bonus's better.

A "deal with rounding" half-LA ability (+2 to one attribute/bonus feat/etc) -- good.

Deliberately designing homebrew rules so that people end up making weak characters -- I dunno. Seems impolite to the players.

But yes, if you and your group want to encourage playing strange high-LA races, enjoy. :) I just like the idea of having rules designed around an approximation of a balance baseline -- other people will want their rules encouraging different kinds of behaviours.

As noted, in a high-social or high-roleplay or high-munch game, having a robot bodyguard around might be not a problem.



Other than that, yeah, its crazy to have a 6th level warforged in a party of 1st lvl characters, for all the reasons mentioned above. Dont do it.

The claim is, allowing a LA +2 1st level paladin with LA+0 characters is to a lesser extent crazy, for lesser versions of the same reasons mentioned.

It can be delt with, with a skilled enough DM and/or group. But it increases the burden. And staring off with it is probably a bad idea. :)

PinkysBrain
2007-02-08, 10:49 AM
Yes, it does. A few levels after you've bought off all your LA
For high ECL races? Have you looked at the buy off rates for high LAs lately?