Some thoughts for my character... Rogue/Beguiler

[WeaselGuy]

So, I was just wondering what the playground thought about my new character... She's a Half-Drow Rogue 3 / Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / then finishing with Arcane Trickster (qualified for with the feat Spell Hand, allowing me 1/day Mage Hand and other random stuff).

The concept is that my group needs a skill-monkey, but I wanted something a little different than just a Rogue 20, and Beguiler gets me some rather nifty stuff.

I should also say that my DM is new, but learns quickly, and favors thinking creatively over smash it with the biggest stick possible. We're level 7 right now, so the Rogue 3 / Beguiler 4 are set in stone.

The group consists of a Dragonlance Minotaur Glaive fighter, a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer / Fighter, a Human Monk, and a Human Swordsage.

Books Allowed: Pretty much everything from 3.5 except Dragon Magazine and Homebrew. Dragon Compendium is allowed.

So yeah... Go nuts :D

[John Longarrow]

Mind Bender as a 1 level dip is perfect for this kind of build. Grab the feat Mind Sight to, so you can see all intelligences in a 100'r.
Combat Trapsmith may also be a good dip if you are not sold on the beguiler spells.
Dragon Slayer (for immunity to fear) is a great one level dip. You loose out on skills, but full BAB and a D10 for one level doesn't hurt survivability. Requires BAB +5.

Important question, what is your character's alignment?

[Urpriest]

It's a little weaker than it could be, but should be a fine and fun build.

[WeaselGuy]

Ok, well, my character is CN for starters... also, I'm gonna see if I can get this table to work, to better layout what I'm working with...

Assigned Stats of 12,13,14,16,16,18, arrayed as such:

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 18
Wis 13
Cha 14

with improvements by level going to Int, with the 5th increase going to Wis.



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Feats
Class Features


1st
Rogue
+0
+0
+2
+0
Combat Expertise
Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding


2nd
Rogue
+1
+0
+3
+0
-
Evasion


3rd
Rogue
+2
+1
+3
+1
Improved Feint
Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1


4th
Beguiler
+2
+1
+3
+3
-
Armored Mage


5th
Beguiler
+3
+1
+3
+4
-
Cloaked Casting +1 DC, Surprise Casting


6th
Beguiler
+3
+2
+4
+4
Combat Casting
Advanced Learning


7th
Beguiler
+4
+2
+4
+5
-
-


8th
Beguiler
+4
+2
+4
+5
-
Silent Spell


9th
Mindbender
+4
+5
+4
+7
Spell Hand
Telepathy


10th
Arcane Trickster
+4
+5
+6
+9
-
Ranged Legerdemain 1/day


11th
Arcane Trickster
+5
+5
+7
+10
-
Sneak Attack +3d6


12th
Arcane Trickster
+5
+6
+7
+10
Mobile Spellcasting
Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day


13th
Arcane Trickster
+6/+1
+6
+8
+11
-
Sneak Attack +4d6


14th
Arcane Trickster
+6/+1
+6
+8
+11
-
Ranged Legerdeman 2/day


15th
Arcane Trickster
+7/+2
+7
+9
+12
?
Sneak Attack +5d6


16th
Arcane Trickster
+7/+2
+7
+9
+12
-
Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day


17th
Arcane Trickster
+8/+3
+7
+10
+13
-
Sneak Attack +6d6


18th
Arcane Trickster
+8/+3
+8
+10
+13
?
Ranged Legerdemain 3/day


19th
Arcane Trickster
+9/+4
+8
+11
+14
-
Sneak Attack +7d6


20th
New Class Level
+x
+x
+x
+x
Feats
New Class Abilities

[WeaselGuy]

Mind Bender as a 1 level dip is perfect for this kind of build. Grab the feat Mind Sight to, so you can see all intelligences in a 100'r.
Combat Trapsmith may also be a good dip if you are not sold on the beguiler spells.
Dragon Slayer (for immunity to fear) is a great one level dip. You loose out on skills, but full BAB and a D10 for one level doesn't hurt survivability. Requires BAB +5.

Important question, what is your character's alignment?

So, I'm liking the idea of a dip of Dragon Slayer, probably around level 12, but it would involve Dodge and Iron Will. As seen in the table above, I have some feats that probably aren't optimal, but I took them because, basically, this is my first attempt at a Beguiler, and these were feats that are recommended. I'm thinking that if they aren't that useful, I could do Mage Hand at 1, Dodge at 3, Iron Will at 6 and Mind Sight at 9. No idea what to take after that though.

My skills are pretty mutable, we're playing with this house rule where if you get a skill at some point in your career, it is considered a class skill for the rest of your character's life. I have Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (Arcane), Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Concentration, Bluff, Listen, and Spot maxed, with Escape Artist and Decipher Script at below max.

Also, what sort of items should I gun for? Right now I have a Hat of Disguise, Cloak and Boots of Elvenkind, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Elven Chain +1, Ring of Protection +1, +1 Rapier and a +1 Mithril Buckler. I think I also have a MW Hand Crossbow, for a little bit of ranged capability.

[pilvento]

I like the build, sounds fun and usefull.

Other PRC you can take a look at can be Unseen Seer. I belive its much more cool and usefull than the trickster. The most known trick (not the reason to pick the PrC, just an extra) is to get Hunter Eye thanks to its class features and gain lots of aditional SA dices.

I lazy to check now if Trickster requiers 2 SA dices or evasion but if it dosent or you change your mind about the PrC you want to play. Yo can use 1 lvl of spellthief instead of rogue and grab master spellthief feat to stack your caster lvl from other classes to your Spell stealing skills.

[Svata]

I would ask if you can retroactively trade out trap sene for penetrating strike (Dungeonscape, P 13). It allows you to do half of your normal sneak attack damage to creatures normally immune to sneak attack, as long as you're flanking them. Things immune to snek attack ar plentiful, and its good to have a way around that, especially as the most common of them (undead amd constructs) are also immune to mind affecting stuff, wich invalidates a great number of your beguiler stuff. It'll still reduce your effectiveness, but it'll prevent you from being nigh-useless in those situations.

[WeaselGuy]

Pilvento: Arc. Trick. requires 2 SA dice, so it does require 3 rogue to get into, or some other way to get those dice. However, I can't swap those levels of rogue out for anything else. Thanks though :D

Svata: I can, however, swap out my trapsense for penetrating shot, thanks for that helpful reminder! I will totally be implementing that asap.

With that out of the way, does anybody have some suggestions for feats beyond 9th level?

[Urpriest]

Currently, you appear to be a Rogue that lacks Craven. And that's just Criminal. :smalltongue:

[WeaselGuy]

Currently, you appear to be a Rogue that lacks Craven. And that's just Criminal. :smalltongue:


fixed...



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Feats
Class Features


1st
Rogue
+0
+0
+2
+0
Mage Hand
Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding


2nd
Rogue
+1
+0
+3
+0
-
Evasion


3rd
Rogue
+2
+1
+3
+1
Dodge
Sneak Attack +2d6, Penetrating Strike


4th
Beguiler
+2
+1
+3
+3
-
Armored Mage


5th
Beguiler
+3
+1
+3
+4
-
Cloaked Casting +1 DC, Surprise Casting


6th
Beguiler
+3
+2
+4
+6
Iron Will
Advanced Learning


7th
Beguiler
+4
+2
+4
+7
-
-


8th
Beguiler
+4
+2
+4
+7
-
Silent Spell


9th
Mindbender
+4
+5
+4
+9
Mindsight
Telepathy


10th
Arcane Trickster
+4
+5
+6
+11
-
Ranged Legerdemain 1/day


11th
Arcane Trickster
+5
+5
+7
+12
-
Sneak Attack +3d6


12th
Dragonslayer
+6/+1
+7
+7
+12
Craven
Aura of Courage, Damage Bonus


13th
Arcane Trickster
+6/+1
+8
+7
+12
-
Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day


14th
Arcane Trickster
+7/+2
+8
+8
+13
-
Sneak Attack +4d6


15th
Arcane Trickster
+7/+2
+8
+8
+13
?
Ranged Legerdeman 2/day


16th
Arcane Trickster
+8/+3
+9
+9
+13
-
Sneak Attack +5d6


17th
Arcane Trickster
+8/+3
+9
+9
+14
-
Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day


18th
Arcane Trickster
+9/+4
+9
+10
+15
?
Sneak Attack +6d6


19th
Arcane Trickster
+9/+4
+10
+10
+15
-
Ranged Legerdemain 3/day


20th
Arcane Trickster
+10/+5
+10
+11
+16
-
Sneak Attack +7d6

[gorfnab]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)
Beguiler Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=363.0)
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

2 levels of Unseen Seer is nice. For the Advanced Learning feature choose the spell Hunters Eye (PHBII). Unseen Seer gives you Silent Spell as a bonus feat at level 2 so you could go with Rogue 3/ Beguiler 4/ Unseen Seer 1/ Mindbender 1/ Unseen Seer 1/ Arcane Trickster 10. For feats you could then go with (1) Spell Hand, (3) Craven, (6) Versatile Spellcaster, (9) Mindsight, (12) Darkstalker {be sure to acquire a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic}, (15) Staggering Strike, (18) Practiced Spellcaster.

[WeaselGuy]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)
Beguiler Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=363.0)
Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6)

2 levels of Unseen Seer is nice. For the Advanced Learning feature choose the spell Hunters Eye (PHBII). Unseen Seer gives you Silent Spell as a bonus feat at level 2 so you could go with Rogue 3/ Beguiler 4/ Unseen Seer 1/ Mindbender 1/ Unseen Seer 1/ Arcane Trickster 10. For feats you could then go with (1) Spell Hand, (3) Craven, (6) Versatile Spellcaster, (9) Mindsight, (12) Darkstalker {be sure to acquire a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic}, (15) Staggering Strike, (18) Practiced Spellcaster.

Ok, 1) that sneak attack spellcaster handbook is amazing. 2) That collar is also amazing. 3) I like getting more from those 2 levels of Unseen Seer and getting more useful feats than dipping Dragonslayer, even though the Aura of Courage is quite nice. I think the Unseen Seer is more thematic to my character though.

When I get a chance later today, I'll readjust the table, and everything should come out fine!

edit: the table!


Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Feats
Class Features


1st
Rogue
+0
+0
+2
+0
Spell Hand
Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding


2nd
Rogue
+1
+0
+3
+0
-
Evasion


3rd
Rogue
+2
+1
+3
+1
Craven
Sneak Attack +2d6, Penetrating Strike


4th
Beguiler
+2
+1
+3
+3
-
Armored Mage


5th
Beguiler
+3
+1
+3
+4
-
Cloaked Casting +1 DC, Surprise Casting


6th
Beguiler
+3
+2
+4
+4
Versatile Spellcaster
Advanced Learning


7th
Beguiler
+4
+2
+4
+6
-
-


8th
Unseen Seer
+4
+2
+4
+8
-
Sneak Attack +3d6


9th
Mindbender
+4
+4
+4
+10
Mindsight
Telepathy


10th
Unseen Seer
+4
+4
+4
+11
-
Advanced Learning, Silent Spell


11th
Arcane Trickster
+5
+4
+6
+13
-
Ranged Legerdemain 1/day


12th
Arcane Trickster
+6/+1
+4
+7
+14
Darkstalker
Sneak Attack +4d6


13th
Arcane Trickster
+6/+1
+5
+7
+14
-
Impromptu Sneak Attack 1/day


14th
Arcane Trickster
+7/+2
+5
+8
+15
-
Sneak Attack +5d6


15th
Arcane Trickster
+7/+2
+5
+8
+15
Staggering Strike
Ranged Legerdeman 2/day


16th
Arcane Trickster
+8/+3
+6
+9
+16
-
Sneak Attack +6d6


17th
Arcane Trickster
+8/+3
+6
+9
+16
-
Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day


18th
Arcane Trickster
+9/+4
+6
+10
+17
Practiced Spellcaster
Sneak Attack +7d6


19th
Arcane Trickster
+9/+4
+7
+10
+17
-
Ranged Legerdemain 3/day


20th
Arcane Trickster
+10/+5
+7
+11
+18
-
Sneak Attack +8d6

[WeaselGuy]

So, in our 13 hour marathon session Friday, our party went from level 7 up to level 9. Right after leveling up and leaving the Crazy Wizard's Fun House (it wasn't fun for us... Lots of portal-esque traps to figure out >.<) my Mindsight started tingling... Hark, a pair of invisible creatures behind us with an Intelligence of 5... Glitterdust!... Lets just say that Displacer Beasts that can't displace quickly become big kitties with tentacles that the sorcerer lightning bolts and the monk trips into AoO's...

[John Longarrow]

Mindsight is cool that way..

Question though, are you sold on the arcane trickster mostly for the sneak damage? This is rather counter-intuitive for most beguiler builds. For more fun you may want to look at the Lore Master pClass in the DMG. It is one of the few ways to become the uber-knowlege person with some fun add ons.

[WeaselGuy]

Well, my DM prefers us to think our way out of stuff instead of skill-check our way out, and she has found a liking of stuff that's immune to enchantments (read: undead and oozes). Therefore, Sneak Attack kinda remains my sole source of viable damage. I love the feel of Beguiler, and we're about to head into a splinter house of Drow, so hopefully I'll be able to shine a little more as the party face. But, as the resident skill monkey and BFC, Arcane Trickster is about the best way I figure I can go.