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Fax Celestis
2007-02-07, 02:50 PM
It's that he doesn't have anything unique. His unlimited spells-per-day all emulate actual sor/wiz (and sometimes cleric) spells in some form or fashion. What the Warlock needs are invocations that don't emulate spells, since then it'd be effective to be a Warlock so you could do things a different spellcaster couldn't.

gaymer_seattle
2007-02-07, 03:33 PM
Well if you are playing Pulleys and Plumb-bobs you are absolutely correct. The mechanics of the Warlock pretty much do everything you say.

Now I personally play Dungeon's and Dragons, a game of fantasy and creative thought, where my warlock is a creature born of an unholy union, is tormented by thoughts that he cannot always control, and bears demonic powers that most mortals cannot comprehend.

Nothing wrong with my warlock

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 03:36 PM
But wouldn't it be fun for the mechanics of the game to work WITH you, not against you?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-07, 03:36 PM
No, no, the warlock's fluff is fine. It's his mechanics that suck.

EDIT: Ninja'd by bears. With lasers! Sneak attacking laser blasts from the bears of the apocalypse.

Jack Mann
2007-02-07, 03:36 PM
Other than the fact that, y'know, he's unable to pull his weight in combat. And his "demonic powers" are kind of subpar compared with what pretty much any other class can do. But hey, have fun with that, sparky.

EDIT: Doubled ninja'd!

MrNexx
2007-02-07, 03:37 PM
Warlocks are great in a game where they are the primary spellcaster. If they're the bar for arcane and divine power in a game, you can't beat a warlock.

Full spellcasters break the game in any game with non-full-spellcasters.

Morty
2007-02-07, 03:39 PM
Bah, I think it's vice versa. I like Warlock's mechanic- by which I mean concept, not strenght- but 'demonic heritage' fluff freaks me off.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-07, 03:40 PM
Warlocks are great in a game where they are the primary spellcaster. If they're the bar for arcane and divine power in a game, you can't beat a warlock.

Full spellcasters break the game in any game with non-full-spellcasters.

True enough. But then again, if when the Warlock has no competition, he's terrific, which proves my point: the problem with the Warlock is that he doesn't do anything unique, he just does the same stuff more often.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-07, 03:41 PM
Bah, I think it's vice versa. I like Warlock's mechanic- by which I mean concept, not strenght- but 'demonic heritage' fluff freaks me off.

Oh, certainly. The concept is terrific--"arcanist" without limits who gains his powers from some external source--but the mechanics don't make it a viable option.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-07, 04:02 PM
The problem with "he needs to do something different" is that, well, arcanists can do anything. And if there's something left they can't do, it probably shouldn't be done.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-07, 04:07 PM
Right, but perhaps his "something different" should be similar to Flee The Scene, which is interesting and unique, though still doable by an arcanist.

Dhavaer
2007-02-07, 04:08 PM
Right, but perhaps his "something different" should be similar to Flee The Scene, which is interesting and unique, though still doable by an arcanist.

Some more stuff like Flee the Scene and Baleful Utterance would be good. They don't do anything different, but they do two things at once.

SpiderBrigade
2007-02-07, 04:31 PM
Yah, it's not so much that he has to do something unique, because as BWL points out that's going to be damn hard with all the spells out there. What the Warlock needs (well, would benefit from, anyway) is a different way of doing things, other than "oh, you know, it's exactly like this spell."

Morty
2007-02-07, 04:35 PM
Copying spells isn't all that bad, it's just that he has so little options. Something like unllimited but weaker Shadow Conjuration/Evocation won't be bad idea, I think. But that wouldn'y be unlimited uses/day, I think. That, and get rid of this whole 'My ancestor was demon' crap:smallyuk:

Person_Man
2007-02-07, 04:42 PM
I find that Warlock is a good class for newbish players who want to use magic, but aren't good at accounting. You just have to make sure they're not in a party with an experienced Wizard, otherwise they'll feel pretty useless.

I also thought that Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) was a good atempt to make a Warlock slightly better and somewhat different. Their basics are really strong - breath weapon with a Con based DC and variety of energy types and effects, 2 good saves, great Skill list, d8 hit points, and useful powers like flight, charm, see invisibility, solid fog, etc.

But yeah, in the end nothing can really stand up to a good full caster. And there are so many spells out there, nothing original is left for non-casters.

Ramza00
2007-02-07, 04:59 PM
I am happy with the warlock since hellfire warlock. Yes its simple, and yes its not a full caster, but I am satisifed with the fact it can now do some things well. Damage with Endurance.

Rei_Jin
2007-02-07, 05:09 PM
The main thing I find with the warlock is that it isn't really a viable build to 20. It's good for a dip into (like Paladin) but if you take it all the way then you're nerfing yourself.

Now if you're playing a more RP based game, that's fine, but when you are surrounded by people who want to "kick in the door" as it were, you need a bit more power.

Yes, the Hellfire Warlock helps address that. But surely there's got to be a better way to do this?

Ramza00
2007-02-07, 05:58 PM
Noticed I said some things well, not the best at those things, nor did I say doing those things well are often useful.

At least now there is a real "purpose" for the class which the class fufills.

Hyfigh
2007-02-07, 06:05 PM
Is this based on Warlock 20 or all builds with Warlock? I've got a couple builds I really enjoy that involve Warlock.

The new PrC Hellfire Warlock can make them quite potent combatants.

Even a straight 20 Warlock is still playable. More playable than a straight 20 fighter.

Khantalas
2007-02-07, 06:10 PM
That, and get rid of this whole 'My ancestor was demon' crap:smallyuk:

1) Don't you ever use that d-word again.

2) Well, so the all-powerful baatezu give you powers (it doesn't have to be a blood relation, you know). What's wrong with that? Everybody needs to appreciate the baatezu.

Besides, you can gain powers from fey, slaad and -yuck- celestials.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-02-07, 06:14 PM
1) Don't you ever use that d-word again.

2) Well, so the all-powerful baatezu give you powers (it doesn't have to be a blood relation, you know). What's wrong with that? Everybody needs to appreciate the baatezu.

Besides, you can gain powers from fey, slaad and -yuck- celestials.
The mighty tanar'ri will eat you! Eat you good! EAT!

(Note: this isn't trolling, it was an attempt at comedy.)

Diggorian
2007-02-07, 07:01 PM
The group I play a warlock in doesnt have a wizard or full sorceror (just a multiclass one), so I havent felt marginalized yet. I'm the unstable-played Mr. Use Any Magic Device He wants to, Sundering Flyer, Dispeler Blast-botish Negotiator; a role I'm comfortable with in a side campaign I view as existing to give our main DM rest/chance to PC. :smallamused:

If I was DMing and a player complained about his warlock the first thing I'd do is make'em immune to arcane spell failure, as spell-like abilities are supposed to be.

Next, I'd make a lot more invocations with broader flavor. Warlock fluff doesnt make'em all fiend spawn but the class abilities have that flavor. Perhaps something like a talent tree from Modern with fey, celestial, draconic, as well as fiendish themed abilities.

TSGames
2007-02-08, 12:43 AM
Is this based on Warlock 20 or all builds with Warlock? I've got a couple builds I really enjoy that involve Warlock.

The new PrC Hellfire Warlock can make them quite potent combatants.

Even a straight 20 Warlock is still playable. More playable than a straight 20 fighter.
Doesn't the warlock take some CON damage or something like that? If so just become undead to bypass the nasty side-effect.

Hamster_Ninja
2007-02-08, 12:50 AM
Doesn't the warlock take some CON damage or something like that? If so just become undead to bypass the nasty side-effect.
That would work, exempting the fact that it says if they are immune to con damage, they can't use the 2/3 of the abilities the class uses. The way I've heard to get around it is the strongheart vest incarnum, get it with a feat and it lowers ability damage so that you don't suffer at all from your Hellfire abilities. Some DM's might think its cheesy and disallow it though.

Everyman
2007-02-08, 01:15 AM
That or buy a wand of Lesser Restoration. A bit of investment, but not something I've ever complained about.

I think a warlock's true problem is that their role as "scion of destruction" looks pretty meek after level 10 or so. They just don't dish out the damage like one would expect. It would help if they actually got something to modify their EB damage. Something like adding their CHA mod at low levels, perhaps leading up to a double CHA mod at higher levels...

Rei_Jin
2007-02-08, 01:37 AM
I personally think the problem with a Warlock is that he's neither a blaster, nor a battlefield controller, nor a interaction character. He's a bit of everything, which "could" be ok, if he has something he could do to help the party out (like the bard or marshall). But it specifically states that his powers are personal and that he's a selfish caster.

So what can he do? He can deal xd6 damage once per round. Or a couple of other, very limited things.

What would I do to make him a more viable choice? Maybe give him a few more skill choices and a couple more skill points (only an extra 2, nothing more).

Then maybe make some more interesting Invocations for him to use.

If we're going to whinge about the Warlock, let's not whinge about him in comparison to a Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, or Druid. Most people on these boards say that those classes are overpowered.

Is he overpowered in comparison to a Fighter, Rogue, or Monk?

No, he's a little behind them. But not much. Not much at all.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 01:43 AM
The monk is a good comparison, but the Warlock's much worse in combat than a fighter, and a rogue schools him, being both more combat-useful and able to fill the skillmonkey role for the party.

Wippit Guud
2007-02-08, 01:43 AM
I have a warlock with a major fey bloodline and a bunch of fey heritage feats, giving him a different backstory to draw power. And it's fun to have DR 5/cold iron at level 5... prolongs the life.

Cybren
2007-02-08, 01:46 AM
what's wrong with the warlock is WotC, who fear making spontanious casters overpowered they give them more and more limits (such as in the case of sorcerers, getting higher level spells late, no metamagic, etc, and in the case of warlocks, only being able to know 2 invocations)

Dhavaer
2007-02-08, 01:47 AM
I'd say he might actually be ahead of the rogue. He's more mobile (Flee the Scene, Fell Flight, Path of Shadow), stealthier (Entropic Warding, Walk Unseen, Retributive Invisibility) and does damage more efficiently, and with less chance of being hurt (Eldritch Blast vs Sneak Attack). He also gets better UMD and a bunch of other abilities (damage reduction, fast healing).

And a class with a ranged save or die effect at will is nothing to be sneezed at (Word of Changing).

The warlock definately isn't up with the casters, but he's at a good midway point.

Cybren
2007-02-08, 01:49 AM
i think it's more combat usefull to be in close flanking and such with the primary combatant than it is to be 50' away dealing 9d6 damage + whatever invocations you modify it with.

Dhavaer
2007-02-08, 01:53 AM
Considering the very high chance of dying in that situation, I don't think it's really worth it in most situations.

Diggorian
2007-02-08, 03:25 AM
Regarding Eldritch vs Sneak attack, I'll agree with Dhavaer on eldritch being better provided the warlock has Precise Shot.

Sneak attack damage is equal to Eldritch for damage (Rogues a bit more with weapon damage added on) until after lvl 11. Plus it's touch (easy to hit), overrides damage reduction and resistance, doesnt require flank nor feint, and with Eldritch spear or Fell flight (or both like I have :smallwink:) you can do a little battlefield control with it.

Shadow
2007-02-08, 03:30 AM
Well, I'm currently playing a human Monk/Warlock/Enlightened Fist in a tabletop game and I love the character.
He has a very compelling backstory and (considering we're only four players strong) has opened up alot of RP options for the group.
He is Chaotic Good (with a Sacred Vow of Poverty) and has a few of the Exalted feats, such as Sanctify Spell-like Abilty and Purify Spell-like Ability. I've taken Quicken Spell-like Ability allowing two EB's per round, or one EB and an invocation, or one EB in addition to a full attack (which gets interesting with the Enlightened Fist).
I also talked my DM into letting me take Supernatural Transformation (even though it isn't innate) because of something in the backstory.
He's quite effective.
I have no complaints.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 04:50 AM
Umm, sneak attack is better because you get it on every hit, which you get 2 to 7 of.

Dhavaer
2007-02-08, 04:54 AM
If you qualify for it, if the target is not immune, and if you actually hit. Eldritch Blast requires no conditions, without Essences immunities aren't a problem (unless it's immune to rays, like the Tarrasque) and hitting is close to guaranteed against most monsters.
Sneak Attack is situationally useful, EB is reliable.

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 05:57 AM
Well, Warlock 1 (Beguiling Influence) is the beardy response for any compatible socialite. +6 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Intimidate, as well as a 1d6 EB at will? My Courtier, Bard or social Rogue would love that!

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-08, 01:26 PM
Is there any way to convert Eldritch Blast to negative energy damage. Then take Tomb Tainted Soul and go into every battle with full health?

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 01:31 PM
Of course there is. Utterdark Blast.

Khantalas
2007-02-08, 01:38 PM
That depends on if you can actually attack yourself with an eldrich blast.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 01:41 PM
That depends on if you can actually attack yourself with an eldrich blast.

"Target within 30'." You're a valid target, in that case, since you're within 0'. Just shoot your foot.

Khantalas
2007-02-08, 01:41 PM
Ah, Tomb-Tainted Soul, is there anything you CAN'T do?

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 01:42 PM
Get healed by positive energy?

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 01:42 PM
Ah, Tomb-Tainted Soul, is there anything you CAN'T do?

Yes. Be affected nicely by positive energy.

Khantalas
2007-02-08, 01:45 PM
Which class has a positive energy damage power with unlimited uses per day, though?

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 01:47 PM
No one obviously. That would be so impossibly broken, it would be ridiculous.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 01:50 PM
There's ravids (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm).

I wonder what the LA on one of those suckers is.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-08, 01:52 PM
Except that they only make you tingle, they don't heal you.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 01:59 PM
Except that they only make you tingle, they don't heal you.

Right, right. You know, for being made of life energy, the Positive Energy Plane is rather sparsely populated.

Draz74
2007-02-08, 02:02 PM
Crazy idea:

The Warlock and the Binder have similar flavor. Why not combine them?

Take the Warlock, and give him ... say, about half of the Binder's abilities. (1 vestige at 4th level, 2 vestiges at 14th level. Replace the Warlock's DR/Fast Healing/Energy Resistance ability with full progression in the Binder's Pact Augmentation. Maximum Vestige Level also progresses at the Binder's full rate. Something like that.)

Would that make a well-balanced class?

Caelestion
2007-02-08, 02:02 PM
That's because the Positive Energy Plane is just as hostile as its negative twin. It's boiling hot, blindingly bright and there is so much life energy that living creatures explode very quickly after being immersed in it.

Khantalas
2007-02-08, 02:03 PM
But it has so much energy the mortal forms cannot handle it!

Right. Next thing will be telling me that you cannot have too much essentia because you cannot handle the power of those souls. Silly Wizards.

Fax Celestis
2007-02-08, 02:12 PM
Crazy idea:

The Warlock and the Binder have similar flavor. Why not combine them?

Take the Warlock, and give him ... say, about half of the Binder's abilities. (1 vestige at 4th level, 2 vestiges at 14th level. Replace the Warlock's DR/Fast Healing/Energy Resistance ability with full progression in the Binder's Pact Augmentation. Maximum Vestige Level also progresses at the Binder's full rate. Something like that.)

Would that make a well-balanced class?

Potentially. The Binder's pretty decent by itself. And the problem then would be the flavor: why does he get all this fiendish stuff if the people he's binding aren't fiends but are instead those outside of reality?

Draz74
2007-02-08, 02:48 PM
Well, of course you'd change the Binder's flavor so that it now deals with fiends. That's how I generally think of the Binder anyway -- it's even mentioned as a possible variation in Tome of Magic. And isn't it obvious that WotC made up Vestiges just so they didn't get accused of making a demon-worshipping class?

And the reason you'd play a Warlock/Binder hybrid instead of just a Binder ... well, people seem to think the Warlock is very fun to play. This tries to preserve that, but boost the Warlock to a decent power level.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-08, 03:28 PM
That's because the Positive Energy Plane is just as hostile as its negative twin. It's boiling hot, blindingly bright and there is so much life energy that living creatures explode very quickly after being immersed in it.

The positive energy plane is like swimming in a river of heroin... Or at least like breathing pure oxygen. I'm surprised Miko and her ilk aren't all druggies from all the times they use Lay on Hands on themselves.

The problem with a Warlock with Tomb Tainted Soul and Utterdark Blast is that always having full HP just means that the rest of the party is prepared to waste it. It would end up something like;


Rogue: I'm not skilled enough to disable this trap but I don't think it will reset itself if it gets triggered.

Wizard: Okay, Mr Barbarian?

Barbarian: What?

Wizard: Throw the Warlock in.

Warlock: Wait!!!I made a character with Tomb Tainted Soul once. I died because we had no cleric and I was too busy dying to tell the party not to force feed me a cure light wounds potion.

In a party of undead a Warlock would make a Brilliant cleric, or at least a healer.

Piccamo
2007-02-08, 03:31 PM
Isn't there also that prestige class in Complete Mage that lets you change your eldritch blast to a healing blast?

Khantalas
2007-02-08, 03:32 PM
Was your cleric, by any chance, good or worshipping a good-alinged god?

You're playing it wrong. It is broken only if everyone is evil and has the TTS.

EDIT: Yes, I'm insane.

Arceliar
2007-02-08, 03:59 PM
Was your cleric, by any chance, good or worshipping a good-alinged god?

You're playing it wrong. It is broken only if everyone is evil and has the TTS.

EDIT: Yes, I'm insane.

Actually, I believe the requirement for TTS is "Any non-good" which is quite a bit easier to break the game with.

Vitrolic Blast and Eldritch Chain are nice. Although spell resistance is essentially just a slight slowdown at best, it's nice to never have to worry about it. Eldritch chain essentially lets you do 3x the damage every round if there's enough targets around. It's also nice being able to fake any spell well enough to craft any magic item (without being an artificer).

I can honestly say, although it's not a particularly powerful class it's got to be the most FUN of any class to play. I mean...shatter at will, c'mon! Do you have any idea how much fun that can be around the barmaids?

If nothing else, it makes an excellent 2-level dip for rogues. That's enough to ensure they never find yourself without a ranged weapon, can create and see through magic darkness at will, and have unlimited use of Detect Magic, so they always come out carrying the best loot.

Dareon
2007-02-08, 04:04 PM
Odd turn this conversation's taken, as I was planning on having my Warlock multiclass in Binder for like, two levels. He's filling the social niche with between +18 and +23 to Bluff and Diplomacy at 6th, and Naberius' silver tongue ability is just incredibly perfect, as he's now managed to talk his way out of at least three exceedingly deadly fights (Well, he started two of them, but who's counting?), and being able to take 10 and not take the rushed penalty on Diplomacy is just delicious cake.

Granted, that depends on whether or not the DM flavors Naberius as evil. It's a homebrew Oriental setting, and a couple of the other vestiges are lored as some of the big evil deities.

My main problem with the Warlock is he has a very narrow range of things he can do. Everything they can do can be handy, but it's all situational. None of the Warlock PrCs provide much in the way of extensions to their pool, but you can improvise. Binder's a good one, since a lot of their abilities can be used all day, you just need a 30-second recharge. Charlatan (Dragon 335) adds several decent damage and utility "spells" as well as some "mental effects" and "healing". At 5th level with an 18 Cha, their abilities can be used 10 times a day, which is probably going to be enough.

Mauril Everleaf
2007-02-08, 04:07 PM
Okay, so this may be off topic, but I've got a homebrewed (and now subsequently refined) warlock-type class, which runs more like a psionist. He works off of a point system, each point being used to either shape or charge an ability. He doesn't have unlimted use of all of his abilities, just a one (his eldritch blast), but works very well as an evoker-type caster. A heck of a lot better than any mage could at a comparable level. Works really well when combined with another arcanist to do battle field control and divination spells (which my warlock cannot do, at least not for a long time). My Warlocks basically specialize in Evocation, Abjuration and Conjuration while barring Divination, Enchantment (as in Charm and the like, not enchanting weapons and such) and Illusion. They can do a little Transmutation and a minor bit of Necromancy. They have bonuses to summoning demons. They can use/shape any element. If I can figure out how to work tables, I'll see if I can post the specifics over in homebrew.

Diggorian
2007-02-08, 04:24 PM
I can honestly say, although it's not a particularly powerful class it's got to be the most FUN of any class to play. I mean...shatter at will, c'mon! Do you have any idea how much fun that can be around the barmaids?

I feel the same. Playing the chaos I've done goofy tactics that have occasionally worked, like the Poor Man's Counter Spell. Ready Baleful until a caster is about to cast with material components then destroy the material in his hand. works good for potions and holy symbols too, if it works.

Blasting from the shadows every round gets tedius.


My main problem with the Warlock is he has a very narrow range of things he can do. Everything they can do can be handy, but it's all situational.

True too. I plan to take Extra Invocation for every feat slot I get.

Inspired by this discussion, I've opened this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1981884#post1981884)for new invocations and other design fixes.

Lemur
2007-02-08, 06:09 PM
In regards to Utterdark Blast and Tomb Tainted Soul-

There's no reason you couldn't target yourself with the blast, but Tomb Tainted Soul only lets you be healed by negative energy. It doesn't protect you from the fort save against getting negative levels, making the combo a risky prospect. Sure, they wear off after an hour, but that just means it's only really safe to blast yourself before resting, when you don't expect to be attacked for at least an hour. And even then, DMs can be tricky.

Since undead are immune to energy drain, they don't have anything to worry about, which makes Utterdark fine for healing them, though.

Arceliar
2007-02-08, 10:02 PM
In regards to Utterdark Blast and Tomb Tainted Soul-
Since undead are immune to energy drain, they don't have anything to worry about, which makes Utterdark fine for healing them, though.

Actually, it never specifically says that the negative levels are from energy drain. It just says the target takes negative levels which fade after one hour. Undead, AFAIK aren't immune to the negative level from wielding a Holy weapon, so if you want to get rules lawyer on this they they're not immune. If undead aren't affected by it (as it's not ever said to be energy drain--even though it implies it), then I for one would have to argue that somebody with TTS also is unaffected if you're already going to be lose with the rules. If not, it's a warlock.. making a wand--or even an unlimited use item--with restoration isn't a big deal.

Cybren
2007-02-08, 10:58 PM
on the notion of warlocks being superior to rogues: i just can't buy that. It seems to me like the rogue is better at everything that it does (and is, arguably, the best at what it does)

Dhavaer
2007-02-08, 11:03 PM
on the notion of warlocks being superior to rogues: i just can't buy that. It seems to me like the rogue is better at everything that it does (and is, arguably, the best at what it does)

Rogues are better at finding non-magical traps. Possibly at being quiet, I'm not sure how magical flight and Move Silently interact.

Arceliar
2007-02-08, 11:11 PM
Warlocks are superior to rogues on UMD checks.

Warlocks do less damage, but they can do it reliably and with touch attacks. Rogues it's more hit-or-miss-and-blow-my-cover. Rogue is still more obviously useful in a party. Honestly, warlock is about the least party supportive class out there. Aside from damaging opponents, anything they do usually has no effect on the party or hinders them (ie: darkness).

I guess warlock can UMD with scrolls to heal the party..cheaper than potions...but so can a rogue, though slightly less reliably.

But, if you ask me, warlock is even more fun than rogue. And I'm a huge fan of rogues. *Edit: And yay sentence fragment conclusions. More importantly, Complete Mage adds a few invocations which can help a warlock scout fairly well, one of which actually lets their eye crawl out of their skull and run off to scout for them. Really the only thing in that book I enjoyed...