Feel the Thunder - a Thunder Mafia optimization exercise

[GPuzzle]

Because I was feeling stupid today.

Thunder is one of the most supported damage types in the game. And I decided to take advantage of that.

First, tapping into the Vulnerability - Vestige'locks have this nifty little power called Vestige of Mount Vaelis, which gives one Cursed enemy within 5 vulnerability to Thunder damage. So, first of all, everyone needs to curse one target and nuke the crap out of him. We already are Con-based; that can be great for us.

Second, hittting as many targets as possible. And that's where the second power comes in: the combo of Invoked Devastation, Resounding Thunder, Power of Storm and Vanguard's Lightning. Area burst 3, 2d6 Thunder damage at Epic. With the sheer amount of slides we'll be doing, we can group them together and force them into recieving several hits from a party of 5.

Accursed Coordination is required for this plan which is weird as heck:


Race: Half-Elf (PHB)
Class: Warlock|Invoker (PHB, PHB2, PHB3)
Paragon Path: Lyrandar Wind-Rider (EPG)
Epic Destiny: Destined Scion (HotFK)
Dilletante: Magic Weapon (EPG)

Strength 10
Constitution 28
Dexteritry 13
Intelligence 15
Wisdom 28
Charisma 12

Feats:
L1-Accursed Coordination
L2-Mark of Storm
L4-Bloodied Boon
L6-Battlewise
L8-Versatile Expertise (Crossbow, Staff)
L10-Adept Dilletante
L11-Versatile Mastery
L12-Power of Thunder
L14-Arcane Admixture (Thunder, Magic Weapon)
L16-Resounding Thunder
L18-Improved Defenses
L20-Improved Initiative (becomes Superior Initiative at level 21)
L21-Vestige Mastery
L22-Invoked Devastation
L24-Superior Implement Proficiency (Quickbeam Staff)
L26-Hybrid Talent (Invoker Armor Proficiency)
L28-Relentless Curse
L30-Epic Reflexes

Equipment:
+6 Quickbeam Staff of Ruin
+6 Magic Hand Crossbow
+6 Magic Spiritmail Armor
+6 random neck piece


So, what do they do?

First, they curse a single guy, and everyone shoots him with Magic Weapon (with the exception of a single guy). The last guy, which was adjacent to everyone, has now a +45 damage bonus. Since the guy is dead by now, or at least bloodied, he curses another target, and everyone has cursed someone else.

And then, in an area burst 3, every enemy suffers 95 damage and gets focused into a small corner. As a result, they'll keep spamming their 50 damage into every enemy within that burst 3.

Silly?

Yes.

But it was an experiment.

[Sol]

multiple magic weapon bonuses don't stack. this would be true even if the bonuses were untyped, which they are not.

[tcrudisi]

As others have said, Magic Weapon doesn't stack with other Magic Weapons. Also, you are really missing out on the high damage dealers here.

Sorcs have a lot of Thunder Power. Take Arcane Admixture on something like Flame Spiral -- boom, an instant double-tap for ridiculous damage. MC Bard because...

Bards have a paragon path called, well, okay, I don't remember. (Wait - Voice of Thunder?) But it's a Thunder-based paragon path and it comes with a level 11 encounter power that is THE best thunder-based encounter power in the game. Period. Bar none. It's a close burst 2 (*cough* 3 because Thunder *cough*) that does decent damage and allows you to repeat it as a free action at the start of your next turn if you hit with it. No matter how you read it, as long as you hit with it, you get to do it again at the start of your next turn. Unless your DM house-rules 1 repeat only (and that is a house-rule), it's an encounter power that you throw out on turn 1 and repeat it at the start of your turn every round until combat ends. So literally you are getting 2 attacks every round - this power as a free action and whatever power you want to use as your standard. Throw in Arcane Reach (close burst 3 within 2) and it's a fantastic power.

And remember, Bards have some good Thunder powers anyway.

So if I were going to create a "Thunder-based" party, I'd definitely throw in a Bard for leadery stuff and a Sorc for "OMG DAMAGE" stuff. If Magic Weapon is important to you, hybriding Artificer with the Bard would work decently enough, or, as you did: Half-Elf for the at-will Magic Weapon. The two actually work well together as Bard has the ability to slide allies around and the Sorc can take an Arcane-MBA (*cough* Arcane Admixture Thunder onto it *cough*) and Agile Opportunist. The Bard slides him and boom - the Sorc is now getting to stab something with a dagger for Thunder damage and it only cost the Bard a minor action.

Throw in your vulnerability characters and you've got 2 very high-octane damage dealers with the Bard and Sorc.

[GPuzzle]

This was just a very silly experiment - also, weren't the to-hit bounses the typed ones, not the damage bonuses?

[Kurald Galain]

This was just a very silly experiment - also, weren't the to-hit bounses the typed ones, not the damage bonuses?

As per errata, a bonus from any game element doesn't stack with itself. So magic weapon doesn't stack with magic weapon.

[Sol]

They're both power bonuses.

[Daracaex]

They're both power bonuses.

Yes, but that's not the whole story. You cannot stack bonuses from the same named game element. Meaning if you're getting two bonuses that come from two powers/feats/items/whatever that have the same name, they do not stack. Since the two instances of the bonus are from the game element called "Magic Weapon," you only benefit from one.

[tcrudisi]

I feel as though the thread's really focusing on the rules violation rather than the exercise itself. GPuzzle, you now know that it doesn't work under the criteria you gave before. You can (obviously) just give up or you can keep going with your idea and evolve it to fit around the rules. Honestly, I've always liked the idea of optimizing around a certain criteria. (My last two parties were "all-pixie" and "all changeling with everyone maximizing bluff and stealth".) I feel like the game feels more "team-based" if everyone has to optimize around a certain thing. Many people choose radiant or cold for obvious reasons, but I have never seen Thunder on a party-wide basis. In other words: I'm curious as to what you come up with.

[GPuzzle]

Well, for starters, since there is no Thunder weapon, I need to choose certain classes, and Warlocks are necessary, so I'm settling down on the party:

Genasi Warlock|Artificer - Leader, sets up the vulnerability and some good damage bonuses

Halfing Storm Sorcerer (or Tiefling Air Elementalist)/Voice of Thunder - Main Striker, has loads and loads of attacks with him and a crazy amount of sliding

Half-Elf Wild Focus Battlemind - Thundering Force+Force Weapon=All Psionic Powers deal Thunder damage. That's too good not to pass, so we're picking him as a Defender

Warlord|Sorcerer - Lead'Striker, which mixes fairly well with the others.

Genasi/Warforged/Hobgoblin Warlock|Wizard - A Controller, because they are nice to have, and setting up more vulnerability is good for us.

Does it seem good enough?

[Sol]

Yes, but that's not the whole story. You cannot stack bonuses from the same named game element. Meaning if you're getting two bonuses that come from two powers/feats/items/whatever that have the same name, they do not stack. Since the two instances of the bonus are from the game element called "Magic Weapon," you only benefit from one.

Which is precisely what my first post in this thread meant.

Discussing which of the two rules is violated first is pretty pointless.

For the exercise as a whole, I'm not a huge fan of even trick parties that contain multiples of the same character.

So I'd want a bard/voice of thunder, an invoker/devoted orator, an elementalist/lyrandar windrider, a thunderborn barbarian/building thunder all wielding crusader's weapons and Pelor's sun blessing, all with resounding thunder, all cherry picking their best thunder powers, with a swordmage morninglord who admixtures thunder onto Sword Burst rounding the party out.

But I suppose that's just me. Vestige locks aren't worth the vuln 5, as all of their powers are single target and mediocre, but thunder's emphasis on massive burst sizes pairs very well with tapping radiant vulnerabilities, given the ability to use crusader maces as a weapliment (which admittedly eats up almost everyone's MC. At least avenger and cleric MCs are top-notch).

[GPuzzle]

That's a way to improve a Radiant Mafia, I'll give you that.

I'm still trying to work on the Thunder Mafia, though.

[Tegu8788]

I'm actually trying to get a group of us into a testing game, where we all can practice builds and GMing a fight. Perhaps that would be a good place to test this out. I'm no good beyond lvl 5 or so, but I'd love to watch this go down.

[Sol]

That's a way to improve a Radiant Mafia, I'll give you that.

I'm still trying to work on the Thunder Mafia, though.

If that doesn't qualify, based solely on also doing radiant damage on top of tremendous thunder AoEs, then you're being overly specific with your definition of mafia.

But I guess my morninglord-less variant would be the same thing, more or less, with a different PP on the swordmage and different weapons.