Optimizing unoptimization...

[boxfox]

Good morning, GitP.

I see this request as something that could benefit anyone in my situation, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only optimizer in a group of non-optimizers. Details are in the spoilers.

We have a 3-person group plus our DM. Campaign began at level 1. The other two players don't optimize at all. They are a rogue and a bard.

The Githzerai rogue spent the first session (levels 1-3) without rolling his sneak attack damage once (even though he was constantly able to).

The bard's highest score was a 12, I think. He's playing a pathfinder rabbit race which gives +2 Dex and +2 Cha. He spent the session killing 2-3 rats and singing 1 time.

They're both new players who don't seem very interested in optimization at all.

The DM limited my char-gen books to core, any forgotten realms books, and the planar handbook. I chose a barbarian, to provide a meat shield. I'm playing a Mineral Warrior Wemic (free+4 LA :smallbiggrin:) who started the game focusing on charging.

The DM is good, it's pretty obvious. Not only is the story and atmosphere really fun, but he is able to throw curveballs with no warning and adjust an encounter to be challenging to all of us, even though we're vastly different strengths.

The BBEG of the first session was a goblin rogue with a dagger that lets her sneak attack whenever she wants (homebrew), who has a wyrmling red dragon chained up in the corner. Due to being illiterate and/or really stupid, our characters signed job contracts that basically said that we finish this job or the little red dragon gets really big and eats us.

We enter the goblin's chambers and she blinks away. Our rogue blinks after her (with his own nifty dagger). I roll higher initiative than anyone else in the room and charge the dragon when its chains drop, rolling a crit and hitting it for 92 damage...at level 2. I honestly had no idea that was possible, but doing the math I realized that it would actually have been even higher if I'd added in my rage bonuses, which I forgot about (I was raging when I charged).

Our bard didn't do anything at all that encounter. The rogue went down to 2HP before wounding the BBEG enough that she blinked back to our room, where I immediately decapitated her in 1 swing.

Later that night, I went to sell the loot while they went to the library and I was attacked by 6-8 baddies. I assume they were half dragons, immune to fire, based on the story and the fact that after I splattered 2 of them, the rest started using breath weapons every turn, which bypassed my DR and put me to 3 life before I ran very hard to get away. During that battle, I rolled 2 1's, which resulted in me losing my primary and secondary weapons.

Unfortunately, now everyone thinks that I'm "really strong against bosses but not against groups", which simply isn't true. If I hadn't dropped those 2 weapons, I would have easily defeated all of the attackers with many HP to spare, since I basically 1 hit everything.

We're playing in Sigil. It's sort of a homebrew version, but pretty close. The important part to remember is that I can't play any classes that require me talking to a god to get my powers, such as paladins, clerics (all of them...already asked), and crusaders. {I really wanted to play a half-troll crusader with a vampiric weapon...fast healing 5 + vampiric + healing stance + healing maneuvers = really fun.}

My request: help me make a new character (any books), that both appeals to the munchkin/optimizer in me and at the same time doesn't steal all the thunder from my team. I am capable of controlling myself, but when you're large and have big muscles and a big stick, it's very hard to hit softly... So...something non-roguish and non-caster (our bard thinks he's a caster, and I don't want to step on his toes).

I like to play all roles, so the only real requirement for my personal taste is that it provides me with lots of options and (preferably) a bit of flavor. I like options. I like being good at my "job".

I can probably go up to a +4 LA for free at level 1, though I can also probably go up to +6 by starting at level 1 (the party is level 3). I don't mind LA's because they let me do strange and fun things with strange and fun races, and may result in me being "weaker" in the end, which might keep me on par with the team.

Homebrew IS allowed, but everything needs a reason...which I'm good at coming up with. ANYTHING you think of that could work, please include, because I may be able to use it to alter other ideas and make the final "product".

It's only 6am here and I'm on my first cup of coffee, so I'm probably missing details that will help a lot. I'll be monitoring this thread all day, so please ask anything you'd like to know.

I really like this group, not just as characters (they're all very flavorful!), but as people. I respect them. I want us all to have fun, and I just don't think it's possible when every encounter involves me basically killing everything and the only way to for the others to shine is when they go off without me. I know that they'll get (a little) more powerful as they level up, but so will I... The worst part is that I'm not even really optimized, just big.

[ChocoSuisse]

You can play Artificer and craft items for your team.

Powerful class, many options, happy teammates.

[nedz]

If they're new players, then they will probably improve; though you may well end up as their role model for how to play the game. So, the question should be: what sort of example do you want to set ?

Currently you are doing the big Barbarian who hits things really hard, which is probably fine. Your next character could be something like a Beguiler — who does no damage at all. In the current party this would step on the toes of both the rogue and the bard, so it's one to keep in reserve.

[sleepyphoenixx]

A Swordsage should work pretty well. You can focus on Setting Sun maneuvers for BFC and set enemies up for your teammates without overshadowing them with massive damage.
Factotum is also an option if you stay away from the roguish skills.
Otherwise you're pretty limited in what you can achieve as a non-caster, non-rogue build.

[Diovid]

Go for a party-buffer. Something like Silverbrow Human Marshal 1 / Fighter 5 / Warrior Skald 1 / Warchanter 10 / x 3. Where x is either more levels of Warrior Skald or levels of Dawncaller (the adaptation section of Dawncaller mentions non-Goliath Dawncallers).

Use the Fighter's Dead Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) and Zhentarim fighter (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) variants, and possibly the Fighter's thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug)var iant. Use Skilled-City Dweller (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) to replace Survival and Handle Animal for Gather Information and Sense Motive for several of the used classes. Take the Draconic Aura and Double Draconic Aura feats (Dragon Magic). Possibly go for the following items: Regalia of the Hero (Magic Item Compendium), Rearguard’s Cape (Magic Item Compendium), Shield with the Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070618a&page=4) enhancement. It could double decently as the party face.

Of course a buffer would work even better as a full caster or even as a bard but those options appear to be off the table.

[JeminiZero]

I was thinking of perhaps recommending another buffing class (besides Bard). But as it stands, your party ISN'T using the bonuses they have, so providing them with MORE may not accomplish the desired effect.

So in this case, you should probably gun for a primary caster. In particular, your story reminded me of this bit from Treantmonk's guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1146876).

In combat there are also 4 roles - these are the roles that get filled:

The Big Stupid Fighter: This role involves two things: Doing HP damage to BBEG, forcing BBEG to attack you with his viscous weaponry. The Big Stupid Fighter is not always a fighter (though stereotypically he is). He may be a Barbarian, a Summoned Critter, or a Druid. In order to qualify as a Big Stupid Fighter he should be any character that actively tries to be the target of enemy attacks. For those who wonder why I would label this character as "stupid" regardless of their INT score - reread the previous sentence.

The Glass Cannon: This role involves one thing: Doing HP damage to BBEG. The Glass Cannon is like the Big Stupid Fighter except he does not want to take damage. Usually this is not due to superior intelligence - but instead due to inferior HP or AC (or in most cases - both). The Glass Cannon is often a Rogue (Or Rouge for our 13 year old readers), a Gish, an Archer, or a Blaster (the inferior wizard).

God: When reality would entail the above two meeting a rather messy end - someone will need to make some adjustments to said reality in order for the above two to instead meet glorious victory. What other label could such a force be labelled as than "God"? Well - how about "Primary Caster" One label or another - this guy needs to make Reality his Witch (replace the "W" in your head.) in order to do his job effectively.
So, how about a Tier 1 controller caster (Wizard/Archivist/StP Erudite)? Focus on locking down/debuffing your enemies. While the rest of your party turns them into shish kebab. (And when they do start figuring out how to use their bonuses, provide them buffs as well). That way, they feel useful.

Or as Treantmonk says further down in his guide:

In order to be an effective battlefield controller - you should consider your primary goal to line up your enemies flanked by your Glass Cannon and Big Stupid Fighter one at a time and backwards, all while standing on their heads. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.

In order to be an effective Debuffer - you should consider your primary goal to have your BBEG standing in front of your GC and BSF dazed, stunned, nauseated, STR = 1, Dex = 1, Level = 1, and Blind for good measure. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.
The advantage of going down this route is that its a role every party needs, even an optimized one. If they learn to get better at what they are supposed to be doing, you can still keep doing the same things. (And if they don't, you're there to make sure TPK doesn't happen).

[HammeredWharf]

I'll second Swordsage with crowd control. With that group you need someone who can deal moderate damage and a Swordsage does just that. You can even give the rogue more flanking opportunities by using Island of Blades. Focus on Setting Sun and Desert Wind and you'll be fine balance wise.

[boxfox]

You can play Artificer and craft items for your team. Powerful class, many options, happy teammates.
Interesting. I didn't read much about this class because (originally) Eberron was closed to me. I'll read up on it. Thanks.


If they're new players, then they will probably improve; though you may well end up as their role model for how to play the game. So, the question should be: what sort of example do you want to set ?
This is a great way to look at the situation, and a viewpoint that I hadn't considered. I think it's important that I keep this in mind going forward. Thank you.


A Swordsage should work pretty well. You can focus on Setting Sun maneuvers for BFC and set enemies up for your teammates without overshadowing them with massive damage.
Factotum is also an option if you stay away from the roguish skills.
I admit that I've only ever read Crusader out of that book. I'll read up on Swordsage. What is "BFC"? I also don't know anything about Factotum. Which book is that from, please? Thanks for your input.


Go for a party-buffer. Something like Silverbrow Human Marshal 1 / Fighter 5 / Warrior Skald 1 / Warchanter 10 / x 3. Where x is either more levels of Warrior Skald or levels of Dawncaller (the adaptation section of Dawncaller mentions non-Goliath Dawncallers).
Of course a buffer would work even better as a full caster or even as a bard but those options appear to be off the table.
I'm worried about trying to buff much at all, as that is something that the bard is really looking forward to. He identifies his role as someone who doesn't do damage but can buff and also heal. Additionally, while this is a really neat build, I'm worried about what they'll think when they have 1 class written on their sheet at level 10 and I have 4...they're not really ready for that, I think. I got an eye-roll when I explained my template. :P
I will certainly keep it in mind, however. Thanks. :)


...So in this case, you should probably gun for a primary caster. In particular, your story reminded me of this bit from Treantmonk's guide. The advantage of going down this route is that its a role every party needs, even an optimized one. If they learn to get better at what they are supposed to be doing, you can still keep doing the same things. (And if they don't, you're there to make sure TPK doesn't happen).
You know, I immediately assumed I couldn't play a caster for a few reasons.
1. The bard has spells and is focusing on them instead of combat.
2. The party has no "tank" so I should avoid adding a 3rd squishy to the team.
3. Full caster is tier 1 when these two are most certainly playing tier 4 or lower (so far).
Because of this list, I didn't even consider casters... I've read Treantmonk's guide a few times...it's one of my favorites. Odd that I forgot that basic concept. Really, though, don't you think that at this level, with no conceivable healing, terrible stats, and low HD, that we'd all get slaughtered? I'm worried about that...though I have several characters already rolled and 'sheeted' for this particular function... :P (making new characters is fun for me). I've always found magic to be the most interesting part of fantasy, almost the reason for fantasy to begin with.

I'd like to hear thoughts about being so squishy in an already squishy party...... This could work...I'll check out
Artificer and Factotum, too...and I think Swordsage is a Gish, so that could help. I guess we're removing the "no casters" clause, as it seems possible to play one and not go bat-**** crazy all over the toes of my team...if we live without a tank...

This advice is amazing. Thanks everyone. Please don't stop here, though; keep it coming. :)

[Red Fel]

I admit that I've only ever read Crusader out of that book. I'll read up on Swordsage. What is "BFC"? I also don't know anything about Factotum. Which book is that from, please? Thanks for your input.

BFC is "battlefield control," and it's the inverse of buffing. Basically, it's your ability to lock enemies down and keep them from acting, which enables your allies to mop the floor with enemies.

On that note, I would also recommend looking at the Warblade from ToB. It gains access to the White Raven discipline, which grants you the exceptional White Raven Tactics maneuver - basically, you can tell one of your allies, "Hey, it's your turn now." It also has some sweet abilities when you want to slaughter an enemy, but by the same token isn't as purely offensive as a Barbarian.

And Factotum, as I recall, is from Dungeonscape. And it's literally brilliant.


You know, I immediately assumed I couldn't play a caster for a few reasons.
1. The bard has spells and is focusing on them instead of combat.
2. The party has no "tank" so I should avoid adding a 3rd squishy to the team.
3. Full caster is tier 1 when these two are most certainly playing tier 4 or lower (so far).
Because of this list, I didn't even consider casters... I've read Treantmonk's guide a few times...it's one of my favorites. Odd that I forgot that basic concept. Really, though, don't you think that at this level, with no conceivable healing, terrible stats, and low HD, that we'd all get slaughtered? I'm worried about that...though I have several characters already rolled and 'sheeted' for this particular function... :P (making new characters is fun for me). I've always found magic to be the most interesting part of fantasy, almost the reason for fantasy to begin with.

I'd like to hear thoughts about being so squishy in an already squishy party...... This could work...I'll check out
Artificer and Factotum, too...and I think Swordsage is a Gish, so that could help. I guess we're removing the "no casters" clause, as it seems possible to play one and not go bat-**** crazy all over the toes of my team...if we live without a tank...

It's a common misconception that every party needs a tank, a melee damage-dealer, and a caster. In fact, all a party needs is a caster. The rest is manageable.

Bards who focus on casting, although they may neglect their ability to buff, may learn an art that many primary-casters starting off fail to learn - the use of tactical spells. The Bard's spell list has many valuable spells for - here's that term again - BFC. Spells like Daze, Grease and Sleep can completely end low-level encounters before they start. Your friend has more power than he realizes.

And that's before you get into the Tier 1 casters. You could go straight Wizard, Cleric, or Druid, and be as powerful as you want. And I mean that. You could limit yourself and be on par with the rest of the party, or completely dominate every encounter effortlessly. And you could do it without PrCs, ACFs, odd templates or any material outside of the PHB and DMG. There is nothing squishy about a properly optimized Tier 1; they can do anything any other class can do better than that class. A Wizard with Polymorph, a Cleric with Divine Power and Righteous Might, or a Druid with Wild Shape can easily become the party beatstick in a pinch - not that you need one, with your array of situational spells.

Don't forget that a dead enemy can't attack your party. If you can lock down or kill off an enemy before it gets close, you don't need a tank, now do you?

As an aside, Swordsage isn't a gish - at least, inasmuch as the rest of the ToB base classes aren't gishes. If you do want a gish, consider Duskblade, or if you want to stay with ToB, go with Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage - both are excellent classes that combine ToB maneuvers with spellcasting tricks. Swordsage, however, is simply a Monk-alternative with a wide array of options, some mildly magical in nature.

[XmonkTad]

Judging by your party composition, you seem to need a tank that can also do damage (because your glass cannon doesn't) and buff itself (if that rabbit bard don't sing...) so you need a to do it all. For trying to play this straight: Duskblade. A more optomized gish might draw some eyebrows, but a duskblade is a really solid choice single class. You wouldn't be casting the same spells as the bard, so you shouldn't overshadow him.

If your DM was ok with it: Incarnate could also be a solid choice. You can do whatever is needed, but never step on toes either. The book is weird though.

Plan B: your party might be better off eschewing direct combat as much as possible. A rogue and a bard can both be good at social and stealth: so playing something social-sneaky would let the party avoid combat entirely in favor of a different style of play. Beguiler is king of that type of play, but so is factotum. I know you specifically asked for a non-rogue non-spellcaster

[boxfox]

Judging by your party composition, you seem to need a tank that can also do damage (because your glass cannon doesn't) and buff itself (if that rabbit bard don't sing...) so you need a to do it all. For trying to play this straight: Duskblade. A more optomized gish might draw some eyebrows, but a duskblade is a really solid choice single class. You wouldn't be casting the same spells as the bard, so you shouldn't overshadow him.

If your DM was ok with it: Incarnate could also be a solid choice. You can do whatever is needed, but never step on toes either. The book is weird though.

Plan B: your party might be better off eschewing direct combat as much as possible. A rogue and a bard can both be good at social and stealth: so playing something social-sneaky would let the party avoid combat entirely in favor of a different style of play. Beguiler is king of that type of play, but so is factotum. I know you specifically asked for a non-rogue non-spellcaster
Yes, originally I did, though my eyes have been opened to the possibilities of casters. I'll look at Incarnate and Duskblade...been meaning to read up on Duskblade anyway. :P


BFC is "battlefield control," and it's the inverse of buffing.
On that note, I would also recommend looking at the Warblade from ToB.
And Factotum, as I recall, is from Dungeonscape. And it's literally brilliant.
It's a common misconception that every party needs a tank, a melee damage-dealer, and a caster. In fact, all a party needs is a caster. The rest is manageable.
Don't forget that a dead enemy can't attack your party. If you can lock down or kill off an enemy before it gets close, you don't need a tank, now do you?
As an aside, Swordsage isn't a gish - at least, inasmuch as the rest of the ToB base classes aren't gishes. If you do want a gish, consider Duskblade, or if you want to stay with ToB, go with Ruby Knight Vindicator or Jade Phoenix Mage - both are excellent classes that combine ToB maneuvers with spellcasting tricks. Swordsage, however, is simply a Monk-alternative with a wide array of options, some mildly magical in nature.
That whole post was loaded with info; thank you. Very helpful. I thought about Clericzilla for a bit before remembering that I would get no spells or divine anything...just a rule of the setting.
You've all given me a ton of reading to do, lol. I'll continue checking here for more ideas, and will post again after perusing my homework. :P

[animevacker1045]

if i were you i would go totemist. It realy needs no optimising an is extremely flexible it can stack with barbarian using the PrC totem rager giving it good offense and flexibility so you can fill holes your team has while tanking so as not to steal any thunder. if magic of incarnum is not an option go binder mostly the same but doesn't stack as well.

[Taffimai]

I would pick a Githzerai Monk, mostly because of the setting, but only if I had the stats to not feel the MAD.

No divine, no casters and no roguishness doesn't leave much beyond "the guy with the big stick". A Tripping Marshal, perhaps? Lets you help out the party with the right auras, you can play flanking buddy, tripping is nice without making the others useless, not enough feats to get it all at level 2...

If those are too bland for your tastes, what about a Psychic Warrior? Even a Psion who focuses on (de)buffing and battlefield control might work well with the other two (and it's totally not casting, wink wink).

[boxfox]

Quick update.
After my last post, I was just reading up on Artificer (was going right down the list of suggestions :smallbiggrin:) when I met one of the other players (here at work) and found out that we will be adding a fourth player soon. She's going to be playing a full caster (non-blaster) and has play experience. She's pretty badass...works in game design...pretty sure she's going to do great. So now any type of full caster is REALLY out of the picture, lol. FML, right? :P

Some of the options still look good. I'll keep reading!

[Yuki Akuma]

Why can't you have two full casters?

Anyway, Artificers aren't really full casters. They're item crafters. They full different niches.

[Azoth]

Could always go lockdown build to be the defensive line. Hell Human Barbarian2 can be made to trip anything in reach quite easily.

Take Spirit Lion totem for pounce, wolf totem for prereq free Imp trip, and the whirling frenzy rage variant.

Feats:
Flaw: Jotunbrud
Flaw: Wolf Lodge Berserker
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Power Attack or extra rage
Barb2: Imp. Trip.

With an easily managed 14Str your trip mod is +4 Jotunbrud (treated as large) +4 (Wolf Lodge Berserker)+4 Imp Trip +2 Str (without Rage. +4 with rage)=+14(+16 when raging). Not too many things stand a chance of resisting that trip attack within normal CR you'd expect to face.

Grab a guisarme and spiked gauntlets...proceed to kill anything that gets within 10ft of you.

It is also a good base platform to use before heading into Crusader or Warblade. It fixes the stance progression so you actually learn the highest level stance available to you.

[boxfox]

Could always go lockdown build to be the defensive line. Hell Human Barbarian2 can be made to trip anything in reach quite easily.

Take Spirit Lion totem for pounce, wolf totem for prereq free Imp trip, and the whirling frenzy rage variant.

Feats:
Flaw: Jotunbrud
Flaw: Wolf Lodge Berserker
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Power Attack or extra rage
Barb2: Imp. Trip.

With an easily managed 14Str your trip mod is +4 Jotunbrud (treated as large) +4 (Wolf Lodge Berserker)+4 Imp Trip +2 Str (without Rage. +4 with rage)=+14(+16 when raging). Not too many things stand a chance of resisting that trip attack within normal CR you'd expect to face.

Grab a guisarme and spiked gauntlets...proceed to kill anything that gets within 10ft of you.

It is also a good base platform to use before heading into Crusader or Warblade. It fixes the stance progression so you actually learn the highest level stance available to you.
Okay...this is a thought...My current character:
STR:22, DEX:11, CON:15, INT:10, WIS:7, CHA:3 1 level of Barbarian (no variants). Feats, Extended Rage. 1 level of Fighter (no variants). Feats, Spirited Charge. 1 level UNSPENT...can be anything at all. I'm a Wemic, which is like a centaur only with a lion's body and head. I'm large sized. I was only allowed Core, Planar manual, and forgotten realms books to make my character, but that may be lifted now.
Do you think it's possible to turn this character into a functional tripper?

I didn't go that route initially because I was under the impression that spiked chain builds only work for early/mid game and then you're hosed...any truth to that? What do you do when you fight a dragon? Pretty sure that won't work....

[HammeredWharf]

Generally, when you fight a well-played dragon and are a Barbarian you're hosed anyway. However, you can trip flying things and Barbarians are among the better trippers with the decent Strength bonuses they get from Rage and "free" Imp. Trip via Wolf Totem Barb 2. The reason why chargers tend not to trip isn't that they're bad at it, but that "dead" is better than "prone", so getting better at deading things over tripping things is a smart decision.

[mabriss lethe]

What about a Wilder?

You'll be limited to a handful of powers compared to a psion or even a psychic warrior, but that's still enough to get a versatile suite of abilities and a whole load of power points to dump into them. Pick powers that compliment the rest of your party and avoid the stuff that, while admittedly fun, breaks action economy into a fine powder.

You can season it with a little cheese to keep your party alive. Maybe go with a psicrystal and give it draconic auras or something similar whenever it gains a feat from HD improvement. Use the tried and true Share pain/vigor combo to be a semi respectable tank. You could always take the psychic meditation/deep psychic meditation feats and enter the Meditant PrC.

Pick a role you want to fill, take some powers that complement that role and you're set.

[Phelix-Mu]

My approach to being the most talented player but not wanting to run the table is to pick a really bad concept (front-line monk tank!) and then optimize it up from there. With my grey elf int-based monk tank, I started with lots of monk and added in a bit of wiz as an entry to Abjurant Champion. Of course, that was a high-level campaign, and I never needed to suffer through those painful levels of being mostly monk.

So, I usually pick out a Tier 4 or 5 concept that I like and then add in a few tricks to give it a bit more functionality and flavor. There is lots to play with in terms of ACFs and substitution levels for lower tier stuff (though not as much as I'd like for some of the choices...grrrr), and your selection of barbarian pretty much is in-line with this strategy. Just be careful about one-shotting the enemies; in low-op campaigns, one-hit kills of minibosses and bigger are quite easy with even a moderately optimized barbarian. And combats where you preempt others from getting into the fray will cause problems; perhaps you should un-optimize your barbarian's initiative, to allow the other party members to go first most of the time.

You seem to be very aware of the potential dynamics and the possibility of adverse interactions. This is a very good sign, as the worst problems usually involve people that are oblivious to the effect that their character is having on the fun of the game.

[Azoth]

Every mele option gets shut down at some point by certain enemies or environments. If you try to go "big guy with stick" you generally only have a handful of options charger or tripper. Without the stick you can try grappling.

As for tripping a dragon...it is doable. You can stack enough bonuses to your roll to make it happen.

Last build stub was +12 from modifiers. Take a cleric dip for competition domain and get another +4. Sweeping weapon for +2. Psywar6 for augmented expansion to be Huge so another +4. That is +22 before Strength which again with a 14 changes to 18 from rage to 22 from augmentted expansion +6 enhancement item is 28Str +5 from level up 33Str. Total modifiers are +33.

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon has a Trip modifier of +4 (more than 2 legs) +16 (size) +17 (Str)=37.

If I went more into optimizing Trip attempts I could put you on even or better footing to Trip him.

Hell a Swordsage 1 dip for any setting sun strike would hit 37 bonus to trip and give you a straight up even chance to put him on his backside.

[boxfox]

Every mele option gets shut down at some point by certain enemies or environments. If you try to go "big guy with stick" you generally only have a handful of options charger or tripper. Without the stick you can try grappling.

As for tripping a dragon...it is doable. You can stack enough bonuses to your roll to make it happen.

Last build stub was +12 from modifiers. Take a cleric dip for competition domain and get another +4. Sweeping weapon for +2. Psywar6 for augmented expansion to be Huge so another +4. That is +22 before Strength which again with a 14 changes to 18 from rage to 22 from augmentted expansion +6 enhancement item is 28Str +5 from level up 33Str. Total modifiers are +33.

A Great Wyrm Red Dragon has a Trip modifier of +4 (more than 2 legs) +16 (size) +17 (Str)=37.

If I went more into optimizing Trip attempts I could put you on even or better footing to Trip him.

Hell a Swordsage 1 dip for any setting sun strike would hit 37 bonus to trip and give you a straight up even chance to put him on his backside.
This may be a good idea. NOT killing off a character on purpose certainly has its merits, and the fluff for this guy is pretty fun. Yet another research assignment. I will certainly be reading handbooks tonight, but before I do, suggestions on what class to focus on for a spiked chain tripper?

[Azoth]

There are many ways to build a tripper. Generally, being a tripper is feat intensive and your damage is not astronical. You want things that will increase size and strength to make your check as high as possible.

Fighter, Barbarian, psywar, warblade, and crusader are your usual workhorses for useful class features and feats to pull it all together if staying purely mundane.

Fair warning: Most tripper builds, like most other mele builds, lack skill points or other means to really contribute outside of combat so might get a bit boring.

Somewhere I had a fighter20 build that was a lockdown build and pretty decent at social encounters/scouting. If interested I will look it up later.

[snailgosh]

How about a Kaorti Fiend of Possession from Fiend Folio? You mentioned liking to play monster races and it has a really unique style of play, focusing on enhancing your allies' abilities or be a pain in the butt to enemies.
Multiclass with something Psionic and/or Marshal and you're good to go.

On the other side then you would have noone in the party to actually deal damage.

[DementedFellow]

Go for a grapplizard. Buff yourself using spells, and initiate combat. You won't be overplaying your role since you can really only be grappling so many people (typically one) and it would still be fun for you in so much as there are tons of spells that would allow you to do damage to those grappling you. Just be sure to get the octopus mount.

[Raimun]

I would recommend a controller-type character. You know, status changes, save-or-suck, locking enemies to places, conjuring obstacles (wall of force, etc.), perhaps a summon or two. Also, movement spells and buffing will be handy too. So, you know. A wizard.

Thing is, if you drop a fireball, they'll be all: "8D6 damage? That's insane!"... but won't blink an eye if you basically win all encounters with above tricks. -_-

[Larkas]

A few ideas:

- Play a Duskblade. It can fulfill the meat shield part reasonably well, and when the other players get better at the game, you can use this build and turn it into a serious gish (basically Duskblade 13/ Nar Demonbinder 2/ Abjurant Champion 5).

- Play a Knight. It serves the meat shield part very well, though not as well as it could. I've never tried optimizing this one.

- Play a Marshal. You can multiclass it into Warblade or Crusader to make it better, or just use this (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Marshal_(Sublime_Way_variant)) ToB-based Marshal fix.