What Tier is a Fighter with all ACFs (etc.)?

[Frozen_Feet]

To elaborate: what tier would a Fighter be, if it benefited from all ACFs and racial substitution levels at once, without giving away anything in return? From the SRD, there are the Thug and Sneak Attack variants, giving 4 skillpoints per level, expanded class skills, possibility for Urban Tracking and Sneak Attack. Then there's of course Dungeon Crasher and Zhentarim Fighter. What else Fighter ACFs and the like exist?

Basic Fighter is Tier 5, with Dungeon Crasher or Zhentarim Fighter pushing him to Tier 4. If we tack on everything, can we approach, say, a Swordsage in versatility?

[Doc_Maynot]

Not sure if it would count but having access to all the variant fighter bonus feats and special abilities from Dragon #310 would be cool but I doubt it would get the versatility to be a T3, or the sheer power to be a T2

[Gavinfoxx]

Well... the main ones that I am always sad that I can't take all of these together are:

Zhentarim
Exoticist
Sneak Attack
Thug
Dungeon Crasher
Hit and Run Tactics
Skilled City Dweller

[Person_Man]

All ACF's AND all racial subs without giving anything up?

Tier 3. And it would be a game breaking class due to the massive amount of bonus damage you'd get from full BAB, Sneak Attack, Dungeoncrasher, plus a bunch of situational bonuses.


Here's a list of what you'd get, taken from the appropriate guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316).

Armor of God (CC, p 48): Lose a bonus feat. As a immediate action, lower your will save to add your normal bonus to your AC.

Armored Mage (CM, p 32): lose medium and heavy armor, can pick an arcane class and cast in light armor, but only spells level equal to your fighter level +1.

Aligned Strike (CC, p 48): lose bonus feat, gain ability to align your weapon.

Counter Attack (PHB 2, p 45): Lose bonus feat. Use a full round action to make an attack, when you're attacked during that round you may attack your attacker as an immediate action.

Darksong Knight Substitution Levels (CV, p 38): d8 HD, add Perform (dance)
2nd level: Dancing Feint (use Perform (dance) to feint)
6th level: Favored Enemy (yochlol)
8th level: Combat Dancing (+2 dodge bonus against AoOs, +2 attacks using Spring Attack)


Dragonscale Husk (DrM, p 12): lose armor proficiency, gain scaly hide.

Drow Fighter (DU, p 58): Gain +2 initiative and Dex to damage against flat-footed enemies, lose heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.

Dungeon Crasher (DS, p 10): lose bonus feats, gain bonuses to break doors and traps. Gain a bonus on bullrush and do extra damage.

Dwarf Fighter Substitution Levels (RS, p 146): d12 hitdice, gain knowledge: dungeoneering
1st level: Axe Focus (+1 attack with axes), lose feat
2nd level: Racial Foes (+2 damage vs orcs, goblins, and giants), lose feat
8th level: Heavy Armor Expertise (+1 AC in heavy armor), lose a feat


Elusive Attack (PHB 2, p 44): Lose bonus feat. Make a full round action to make one attack and gain +2 dodge bonus to AC, increases with levels.

Half-Elf Fighter Substitution Levels (RD, p 157): d8 hitdice, extra skills
1st level: Blade focus (+1 attack with longsword and rapier), lose a feat
2nd level: Main Gauche (AC bonus from TWF), lose a feat
6th level: Confusing Banter (bluff or diplomacy check while fighting to add to attack), lose a feat


Kobold Fighter Substitution Levels (RDr, p 108): gain profession: miner and search
1st level: Spear focus (+1 attack with spears), Dodge. Lose bonus feat, medium, and heavy armor proficiency
2nd level: Constitution Boost (+2 Con), lose feat
4th level: Strength Boost (+2 Str), lose feat


Overpowering Attack (PHB 2, p 45): Lose bonus feat. Make a full round action to make one attack which deals double damage.

Planar Fighter (PlH, p 32): gain knowledge: the planes as class skill
4th level: Planar Study (+2 bonus damage vs outsiders and extraplanars), lose bonus feat
8th level: Align Puissnance (make weapon aligned), lose bonus feat
12th level: Aura of Stability (dimensional anchor on self), lose bonus feat


Raptorian Fighter Substitution Levels (RW, p 161):
1st level: Encumbered Flight (can carry medium load flying), lose heavy armor weapon proficiency
4th level: Airborne Strike (+2 damage when flying higher than opponent), lose feat
8th level: Fast Flight (+10' to glide speed), lose feat


Resolute (CC, p 48): lose a bonus feat. As an immediate action, reduce your BAB by half and add that amount to your will save.

Stealthy (UA, p 58): Lose bonus feats, gain sneak attack.

Thug (UA, p 51): No first-level bonus feat, only light armor. Extra class skills, adds Urban Tracking to bonus feat list

Warforged Fighter Substitution Levels (RE, p 130): d12 hitdice. Add craft and intimidate to class skills
1st level: Battle Hardened (+3 to initiative checks and saves vs fear), lose bonus feat
2nd level: Bonus Warforged Feat, replaces fighter feat
4th level: Body as Weapon (+2 damage with slams or warforged weapons), lose bonus feat


Zhentarim Figher Substitution Levels (CV, web): Add bluff and diplomacy to class skills.
3rd level: Bonus Feat: Skill Focus(intimidation)
5th level: Extended Intimidation: intimidation lasts longer
9th level: Swift Demoralization: itimidate as a swift action


He would also get proficiency with every Exotic Shield (normally requires trading away Tower Shield Proficiency, Races of Stone).

[Hecuba]

Tier 3. And it would be a game breaking class due to the massive amount of bonus damage you'd get from full BAB, Sneak Attack, Dungeoncrasher, plus a bunch of situational bonuses.

Can you stack Sneak Attack and Dungeoncrasher? I've never really though about it...

[Seerow]

Can you stack Sneak Attack and Dungeoncrasher? I've never really though about it...

Normally no. But using the premise of the thread (get all ACFs/variants/sub levels with no trade offs), then yes you would be able to.

[OldTrees1]

Most of the Fighter ACFs only improve combat. The exceptions are Dungeoncrasher, Thug and Zhentarim Soldier. Both Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim Soldier individually increase Fighter from Tier 5 to Tier 4. However to improve from Tier 5 to Tier 3 a character needs to improve both in their specialization and in breadth. Dungeoncrasher is lists improving the specialization(combat) side of Fighter as the reason for the Tier increase. So we can label it as Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (specialist). Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (specialist) + Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (generalist) = Tier 5 -> Tier 3. That means we only need a Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (generalist) boost to reach Tier 3. So the following questions remain:
Is Zhentarim Soldier a Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (generalist) improvement?
Is Zhentarim Soldier + Thug a Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (generalist) improvement?

Personally I think Zhentarim Soldier is not a Tier 5 -> Tier 4 (generalist) improvement by itself. However it could be when combined with Thug. Thus, I think a Fighter that gets Dungeoncrasher, Thug and Zhentarim Soldier for free is close to if not at Tier 3.

The good news is you can combine these 3 ACFs for the cost of 3 fighter feats.

[Hecuba]

Normally no. But using the premise of the thread (get all ACFs/variants/sub levels with no trade offs), then yes you would be able to.

I meant stacking them action-wise, not feature wise. I don't see any reason why you couldn't (though the bull rush might complicate flanking), I had just never considered the combination.

[Seerow]

I do think that Zhentarim + Thug both gained for free combined with Dungeoncrasher gives some solid non-combat utility. Also, a lot of the Dragon Magazine fighter variants have some extra class skills added on (for example the Exoticist ends up with Tumble on its list). The stronger skill list + more skill points lets the Fighter play a decent face (most likely with a focus on intimidate, but you end up with Diplomacy, Bluff, and Gather information as class skills. As well as Knowledge(Local), Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and probably a few others I'm forgetting. You're no rogue, but you have the skill diversity to deal with a lot of things the Fighter would normally just shrug his shoulders at. Dungeoncrasher gives the ability to deal with traps and other obstacles, as well as making battlefield control more rewarding. Other ACFs are giving you extra options in combat (Resolute in particular is situationally handy and is very nice as a free extra), and you still have all of your feats to either specialize or further branch out.

I have no problem calling it a tier 3, as long as Warblade Crusader and Duskblade are all considered tier 3. Those are the bottom rungs of tier 3, but the Fighter meets or exceeds those standards given these conditions.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I have no problem calling it a tier 3, as long as Warblade Crusader and Duskblade are all considered tier 3. Those are the bottom rungs of tier 3, but the Fighter meets or exceeds those standards given these conditions.
Tier 3.5? (We can stick the Rogue, Warlock, and Warmage there, too)

I'd probably stick in in T4, though. A high T4, but still... he's a good fighter, but doesn't really have the combat options of something like a Crusader or Duskblade. He's got decent skills and intimidate to back it up, but not that many or that good, and skills alone aren't getting you into T3 (Rogue). He also starts running into a bit of MAD (Str, Con, Cha, Int). I'd say the closest comparison is to the Ranger, who still comes out ahead thanks to spells.

[Psyren]

I meant stacking them action-wise, not feature wise. I don't see any reason why you couldn't (though the bull rush might complicate flanking), I had just never considered the combination.

Flanking isn't the only way to get sneak attack. If you bull-rushed somebody who didn't see you coming and who hasn't acted yet, they'd be flat-footed for instance.

[Big Fau]

Most of the ACFs the Fighter gets aren't very good. Things like Dragonscale Husk, Armored Mage, Counter Attack, Elusive Attack, and most of the RSLs don't do enough to push the Fighter up a tier as they are minor numerical bonuses.

It just means you get to combine Zhent, Dungeoncrasher, Sneaky, and Thug variants into a single class, but you still need to invest in those ACFs' benefits to get any use out of them. Dex for Sneak Attack (since TWFing is the way to go), Cha for Zhent, Str for Dungeoncrasher, and you still need magic items and feats for all three of those.

The resultant Fighter would have good damage output, the ability to Intimidate people, and some decent skills, but the amount of investment needed to make those options viable is still pretty steep.

[Person_Man]

Just looking at the first four levels, you get:

d12 hit die

Additional Class Skills: Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (Planes), Perform, Profession (miner), Search, Sleight of Hand.

4 Skill points per level.

Bonus Feats: 3 normal Fighter Bonus Feats, 1 Bonus Warforged racial Feat, Tower Shield, all Exotic Shields proficiencies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields), Dodge, Skill Focus (Intimidation), Weapon Focus (axe, longsword, rapier, spears), Urban Tracking.

Raw Bonuses:


+5 untyped Initiative bonus (Drow Fighter and Warforged Sub)
+2 Con, +2 Str (Kobold sub)
2d6 Sneak Attack. (Stealthy)
4d6 + (Str bonus * 2) bonus damage on Bull Rush into wall/object. (Dungeoncrasher)
6+ scaled bonus to AC (doesn't stack with normal armor, but at least you don't have to buy armor at 1st level) at level 5+ gain scaled Energy Resistance acid, cold, electricity and fire. (Dragonscale Husk)
Dex bonus to damage vs. Flat Footed (Drow Fighter)
+2 damage vs orcs, goblins, giants, extraplanar, and outsiders and +2 while flying higher then enemy (Dwarf sub, Planar Fighter, Raptorian sub)
AC bonus while using TWF. (Half-elf sub)
+3 to Saves vs Fear (Warforged sub)


Special Actions/Abilities:


Immediate Action, reduce your BAB by half and add that amount to your Will save. (Resolute)
Intimidation/demoralize lasts longer. (Zhentarim Fighter)
Immediate Action lower base Will save, add to AC. (Armor of God)
Bypass some alignment based DR. (Aligned Strike)
Full Round Action, make 1 attack + 1 additional attack later as Immediate Action. (Counter Attack).
Full Round Action, make one attack and gain +2 dodge bonus to AC, increases with levels. (Elusive Attack)
Full Round Action, 1 attack, deals double damage. (Overpowering Attack).
Can use Perform (Dance) to Feint (Darksong)
Can cast arcane spells in light armor, limitations. (Armored Mage)


And I'm sure I missed a few obscure things.

[Seerow]

Note: Some of the ACFs listed in the thread you quoted have level requirements. Like Overpowering attack doesn't come online until Fighter level 16. (I was recently building a 10th level pure fighter along these lines and was disappointed by that). I think all of the Complete Champion ACFs had level requirements, and maybe a couple others.


But you did miss all of the ones from Dragon Magazine. Dragon... 310 I think? Had 10 different Fighter variants (including Targeteer) each one of which got 3 special abilities you could replace a feat to get. Toss all those on there and you end up with a lot of options very early on.

[dextercorvia]

Just looking at the first four levels, you get:

d12 hit die


I've been under the impression that Racial substitution HD only give those HD at Racial Sub levels.

[lunar2]

Tier 3.5? (We can stick the Rogue, Warlock, and Warmage there, too)

I'd probably stick in in T4, though. A high T4, but still... he's a good fighter, but doesn't really have the combat options of something like a Crusader or Duskblade. He's got decent skills and intimidate to back it up, but not that many or that good, and skills alone aren't getting you into T3 (Rogue). He also starts running into a bit of MAD (Str, Con, Cha, Int). I'd say the closest comparison is to the Ranger, who still comes out ahead thanks to spells.

mad isn't as much of an issue, since the kobold sub levels give +2 to strength and con, the drow levels give dex to damage when you catch an opponent flat footed, and the half elf levels give bonus AC with TWF. so you are definitely going a TWF route, since you have so many things that improve TWF, meaning you can have a dex focus and still be effective.

[Person_Man]

mad isn't as much of an issue, since the kobold sub levels give +2 to strength and con, the drow levels give dex to damage when you catch an opponent flat footed, and the half elf levels give bonus AC with TWF. so you are definitely going a TWF route, since you have so many things that improve TWF, meaning you can have a dex focus and still be effective.

I agree.

Str 11 + 2 (from Kobold) qualifies for Power Attack. You get plenty of bonus damage from Sneak Attack, Dungeoncrasher, and Power Attack.

Max Dex with Weapon Finesse for To-hit, Initiative, AC, TWF, AoOs, Dex to damage against flat footed, etc.

Con 16ish+ for hit points and Fort Save

Int 13 for Combat Expertise

Wis 10 to avoid penalties.

Cha 10 to avoid penalties. But this does not need to be maxed out, since it's easy to boost Skill checks with Skill points and magic items.

[Frozen_Feet]

Get's less out of combat goodies than I thought, but all the combat bonuses definitely seem to push him to Warblade's level.

The Dragon Magazine interests me. Can anyone tell more of what it includes? I've heard of Targeteer elsewhere and it makes for a decent archer, but the rest are completely unknown to me.

[OldTrees1]

Get's less out of combat goodies than I thought, but all the combat bonuses definitely seem to push him to Warblade's level.

The Dragon Magazine interests me. Can anyone tell more of what it includes? I've heard of Targeteer elsewhere and it makes for a decent archer, but the rest are completely unknown to me.

Most of the Dragon Magazine Fighter variants give new Fighter specific abilities that can be taken instead of a Bonus Feat (similar to Resolute). They also frequently change the skill list (with both expansion and shrinkage). They also mess with the PHB section of the fighter bonus feat list. They also mess with proficiencies

Bodyguard: 2 ACFs - increase ally ac, cleave and great cleave in 1 feat
Commander: 2 ACFs - weak buffing others
Corsair: 5 ACFs - climbing, falling and swimming
Exoticist: You get 4 exotic weapons instead of all martial weapons, 3 ACFs - minor bonuses to using exotic weapons
Fencer: 3 ACFs - decrease enemy BAB, minor ac bonuses
Horseman: 4 ACFs - mounted charges include turns, mounts are better protected
Kensai: Focus on 1 weapon (free exotic proficiency), lose a feat for +5 attack/damage over 20 levels, 2 ACFs - -3 penalty = +1 extra attack
Knight: 4 ACFs - offensive mount boosts
Pugilist: 4 ACFs, unarmed attacks, DR vs nonlethal
Shield Bearer: 5 ACFs - better defensive use of armor and shield
Survivalist: n/a
Targetteer: 3 ACFs - Increased ranged combat
Thane: -4 social penalty if without a Master

[Techwarrior]

Get's less out of combat goodies than I thought, but all the combat bonuses definitely seem to push him to Warblade's level.


This. In answer to your question, I'd think it'd be at the same Tier as a Warblade (I personally feel they're T4, but they're listed as T3). They're out of combat utility is just about the same (breaking objects freely, social skills, minor knowledges).

[Seppo87]

I have another question

What tier is this?

Mundane Monster (base class)

Full BaB
D12
8 skill points per level
All good saves
All class skills
Proficient with all weapons and armors, including exotic ones
Learns maneuvers as a Master of Nine - except Supernatural ones. Has dual stance and dual boost at will. Recharge as Warblade.
Can add a mental ability bonus of his choice to armor class, saves, hit, damage (on top of any base stat).
Fighters' feats at each level. Can trade each to get fighters ACFs instead
Full Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Mettle
DR/- = Level/2. Always stacks.
Energy Resistance (all types) = Level
Factotum's Inspiration Points and uses (including extra actions and emulating class features) except not restrained to INT

Fluff restrictions - all levels convert to Commoner if does the following:

-Multiclass. Ever.
-Willingly emulate a spell with UMD
-Learn and/or use a spell or spell like ability or other clearly non-mundane stuff (Use common sense to get my point please. The class is named mundane monster.)
-Have a cohort, animal companion, tamed creature etc that violates the spirit of the class by using supernatural stuff

CAN

use magic items that require no UMD

(numerical restrictions?)
-Some unknown power prevents him from achieving sensless results with social skills. Not going to convince the king to give him the crown with Diplomacy.
-If damage dealt in a single round exceeds LVx20, all subsequent damage is halved. If after that it still exceeds LVx25, all subsequent damage is halved again. Repeat for Levelx30 and so on. Always round down.
-If AC goes over 20+ (LVx2) the same happens (repeat at 20 +LVx2,5, 20 +LVx3 etc)


So, what tier would this happen to be?

[OldTrees1]

I have another question
What tier is this?


Well since it does not have any game-breaking abilities, it can't be Tier 2.

Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job.
Since it is quite good in at least 1 area and not frequently useless in other areas, it can't be Tier 4.

Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining.
However it also easily exceeds the minimum requirements for Tier 3

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.
So it is placed as High Tier 3 and would slip into Tier 2 if given a single campaign smashing ability.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What tier is this?
Let's see... you've made an initiator that's better at initiation than any of the existing guys (who themselves range from low T3/high T4 to solid T3), gestalted them with the Factotum (solid T3) and Fighter, removed spells but added a crapton of passive bonuses...

It's not T2, because it doesn't have any (potential) campaign-breaking abilities like scrying, WBLmancy, or crap like that. On the other hand, it's head and shoulders above any of the non-caster T3s-- but in a power way, a "make you obsolete" way, not a good, "caster-esque versatility" way. So... yeah. Tier 3 and broken.

Here's an alternate idea:

Gestalt the Fighter and Factotum
Remove Arcane Dilettante and Opportunistic Piety.
Grant the Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike at level 2.
Bonus skill tricks every odd-numbered level, starting at 5.
Starting at 5th level, allow him to spend an inspiration point to use a skill trick, even if its usual once/duration has been exhausted.

[Seppo87]

Thank you for the answers.
As I thought, it's Tier3.

Grod, You are right. This class would make obsolete other classes. It was necessary though, because the idea was to test the theoretical top of what mundane - and only mundane - abilities can do.
I never thought of actually adding this to playable classes, it's for theoretical purposes.
I like your proposal anyway.

[CyberThread]

Armored mage is not a fighter acf

[Grod_The_Giant]

Grod, You are right. This class would make obsolete other classes. It was necessary though, because the idea was to test the theoretical top of what mundane - and only mundane - abilities can do.
Existing mundane abilities, or homebrew "mundane" abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?307285-The-Myth-Tier-1-quot-Mundane-quot-Challenge-Accepted!)?

[Seerow]

Armored mage is not a fighter acf

Actually it is. It's meant for Multiclass Fighters, but it's in Complete Mage, and lets Fighters ignore ASF for spells up to their Fighter level's spell level. (So to ignore ASF on 9th level spells you need 9 levels of Fighter. A Fighter 7/Wizard[or prestige class] 13 gets 7th level spells and can ignore ASF in them). It's a bs ability because of the Fighter level restriction, but it is there.

[Flickerdart]

Flanking isn't the only way to get sneak attack. If you bull-rushed somebody who didn't see you coming and who hasn't acted yet, they'd be flat-footed for instance.
Bull rush doesn't get Sneak Attack applied to it, in the same way that a fireball doesn't - it isn't an attack.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Bull rush doesn't get Sneak Attack applied to it, in the same way that a fireball doesn't - it isn't an attack.
With Dungeoncrasher, though? I can certainly see an argument being made there. There's no text about it only working for weapons, and Dungeoncrasher is a non-ranged attack-y ability that deals damage...

[Seerow]

With Dungeoncrasher, though? I can certainly see an argument being made there. There's no text about it only working for weapons, and Dungeoncrasher is a non-ranged attack-y ability that deals damage...

I think he's right. Sneak Attack requires an attack roll to work. For the same reason Sneak Attack will work with Scorching Ray, but won't work with Fireball; it will work with a standard attack, but not with Dungeoncrasher.

Of course if you are using Dungeoncrasher with Knockback, your initial attack gets sneak attack, but the Dungeoncrasher damage would not.

[Metahuman1]

I think he's right. Sneak Attack requires an attack roll to work. For the same reason Sneak Attack will work with Scorching Ray, but won't work with Fireball; it will work with a standard attack, but not with Dungeoncrasher.

Of course if you are using Dungeoncrasher with Knockback, your initial attack gets sneak attack, but the Dungeoncrasher damage would not.

There are people who don't use Knockback with Dungeon Crasher?

Also, consider that for about 2,000 GP you can get a custom item of Persist Blade, Grease, Summon Monster 1 or Summon Natures Ally 1 to either make targets flat footed or flanked for you. I like persist blade myself for this since it's the most fool proof one.

Barring that, pick up leadership or a cohort, use Handle Animal plus some gold to train a nice battle ready pet to be a flanking buddy, or buy a wand and a wand chamber of Persist Blade/Grease/Summon Monster 1/Summon Natures Ally 1 and drop some cross class ranks in UMD.



And wasn't there a sub level floating about somewhere that landed you a good reflex save?