Changeling Warshaper?

[Krazzman]

Hello again Playground,

I'd like to play a changeling and go into warshaper (mainly for the stun/crit immunity + fast healing).

But my thoughts run in circles about what base class I should take.
One thought I have so far is Shapeshifting (PHB2) Druid but I am unsure. I would lose out on 9th level spells but the focus would be on shapeshifting anyway.
Another thought was some sort of Bard-sader build or Duskblade or Beguiler.
Yet another thought was Changeling Rogue (to get 10+Int skill points) and then after warshaper into assassin (or similar).

I think Druid would be the strongest choice considering being T1 and such stuff. And shapeshifting would allow me to fly from level 3 on. Which is always awesome. But somehow it does not feel right.
Another thought I have discarded so far is Incarnate. As it postpones the Warshaperlevels even further.

Sooo any advice?
(Allowed Sources: Core, PHB2, Completes, ToB, MoI, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, MiC, RotW and RoD as well as Faerun Campaign Setting/Players Guide to Faerun)

[Telonius]

If you're taking it all the way to Fast Healing, you've taken four levels in it and given up on 9th level spells. Barbarian, Fighter, and (especially) Totemist synergize really well with the abilities. If you really want to have casting, something like a Duskblade could work. So could Wizard plus a Gish PrC like Abjurant Champion, Eldrtich Knight & Co.

[Thealtruistorc]

Totemist from MoI is probably the easiest, as it can grow natural weapons.

A good variety of templates provide claws or bites.

Monk unarmed strikes are technically natural weapons.

A changeling with any of the above should qualify by level 7.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, even 8th level spells are powerful enough to rock the boat and blow classes without them out of the water.

I am going to recommend a nice, rounded, character who can act as melee support for a tier 1-2 party. Take druid, specifically the shapeshifter variant. Between bite of the were X and warshaper, you will be the toughest thing in combat, and your strength score can hit the mid 50s fairly easily. Don't take the 4th level of warshaper. That is what persisted mass lesser vigor is for, or for lower levels, extended lesser vigor. 30 rounds of fast healing from a 2nd level spell slot is all you really need during combat.

[Urpriest]

Warshaper's abilities are especially powerful at low levels, and the four or five level cost means anything with casting is going to be slowed down significantly. I'd try to qualify as fast as possible with full BAB classes. Barbarian combos pretty well. I don't think I would do Crusader, but Warblade could work, if you're going ToB you want to focus on boosts and counters, not strikes, since your full attack will likely be a thing of beauty.

I'd advise you to build it as a punchbarian-type for the first few levels, with some Warblade stirred in.

Edit: An important caveat to this: you and your DM need to come up with a sensible houserule for Warshaper natural attacks. As it stands, you can pick up as many natural attacks as you have move actions, then keep them for the rest of the day. That, needless to say, is silly, and your DM should probably come up with some sort of reasonable limit. Limits I've heard include one at a time, one per "attack mode" listed in the MM, and one per class level.

[Dread_Head]

Go Bard 6 / Warshaper 4 / X 10.
Get a Badge of Valour (MIC), and a Vest of Legends (DMGII). Learn the spell Inspirational Boost (SpC) and take the feats Song of the Heart (ECS) and Dragonfire Inspiration (DrM) (and possibly Words of Creation (BoED)).
Enjoy heaps of bonus damage dice on all of the natural attacks that Warshaper lets you grow. Top out your progression possibly with Sublime Chord (CA) for enter something like Abjurant Champion (CM) if you want a more gishy feel.

[Krazzman]

If you're taking it all the way to Fast Healing, you've taken four levels in it and given up on 9th level spells. Barbarian, Fighter, and (especially) Totemist synergize really well with the abilities. If you really want to have casting, something like a Duskblade could work. So could Wizard plus a Gish PrC like Abjurant Champion, Eldrtich Knight & Co.
That is exactly my problem. Feeling that I gave up on 9th's (seriously spoken I have yet to see a campaign last longer than level 6 though. So far every time something prevented that) Casting is not that important. Flight is. Hence my first thought being Shapeshifting druid for 3rd level Eagle form. (Also I don't like Animal Companions and the normal Wildshape...)

Totemist from MoI is probably the easiest, as it can grow natural weapons.

A good variety of templates provide claws or bites.

Monk unarmed strikes are technically natural weapons.

A changeling with any of the above should qualify by level 7.
I play(ed) a Totemist recently. And due to Changelings Subtype I just need to get a BaB of +4 but seriously spoken Monk is definitly out. Especially with ToB in mind.

Well, even 8th level spells are powerful enough to rock the boat and blow classes without them out of the water.

I am going to recommend a nice, rounded, character who can act as melee support for a tier 1-2 party. Take druid, specifically the shapeshifter variant. Between bite of the were X and warshaper, you will be the toughest thing in combat, and your strength score can hit the mid 50s fairly easily. Don't take the 4th level of warshaper. That is what persisted mass lesser vigor is for, or for lower levels, extended lesser vigor. 30 rounds of fast healing from a 2nd level spell slot is all you really need during combat.
The current optimization level in my Group is low. I am practically the only one really trying something powerful yet not overshadowing. Persist Spell won't come up. And I would like to have Fast Healing always on.

Warshaper's abilities are especially powerful at low levels, and the four or five level cost means anything with casting is going to be slowed down significantly. I'd try to qualify as fast as possible with full BAB classes. Barbarian combos pretty well. I don't think I would do Crusader, but Warblade could work, if you're going ToB you want to focus on boosts and counters, not strikes, since your full attack will likely be a thing of beauty.

I'd advise you to build it as a punchbarian-type for the first few levels, with some Warblade stirred in.

Edit: An important caveat to this: you and your DM need to come up with a sensible houserule for Warshaper natural attacks. As it stands, you can pick up as many natural attacks as you have move actions, then keep them for the rest of the day. That, needless to say, is silly, and your DM should probably come up with some sort of reasonable limit. Limits I've heard include one at a time, one per "attack mode" listed in the MM, and one per class level.
That is exactly the reason I posted this thread. Barbarian won't give me flight. And actually I don't want to go heavy Natural attacking stuff. Basically limiting myself here and only abusing it if it needs to be done. I count with giving +1 size to a natural weapon exactly once. But don't know about forming them. I would say not too cheesy stuff. Basically toning it down myself. Would start with one at a time (except claws) and later maybe 1 per level.

Go Bard 6 / Warshaper 4 / X 10.
Get a Badge of Valour (MIC), and a Vest of Legends (DMGII). Learn the spell Inspirational Boost (SpC) and take the feats Song of the Heart (ECS) and Dragonfire Inspiration (DrM) (and possibly Words of Creation (BoED)).
Enjoy heaps of bonus damage dice on all of the natural attacks that Warshaper lets you grow. Top out your progression possibly with Sublime Chord (CA) for enter something like Abjurant Champion (CM) if you want a more gishy feel.

No Song of the Heart and no Words of Creation. Else this could work. Standard IC optimization.

[Telonius]

Personal opinion on the number of natural weapons: I think the intent was for the ability to give a single weapon at a time. The example they give has a lot of "or's" listed. They would have been "and's" if they'd meant to give the option of having them all at once.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, my advice is then to go barbarian and take a greatsword.

Maybe

Barbarian 1 / 3 Half-orc paragon 3 / Warshaper 4 / Human Paragon 3 / Stone blessed 3 / dwarf Paragon 3 / Fighter 3

Ok, so you take the Racial emulation feat at 1st level to count as a half orc. Once you count as a half orc, you qualify for half orc paragon (+2 str, a bonus to intimidate, and 1 extra rage/day is better than barbarian 2-4). You follow this with warshaper, as you meet the prereqs with +4 bab. This can be followed with Human paragon for a free feat and +2 to a stat of your choice (str) as half orc paragon lets you qualify. Then you go for stoneblessed to give you +2 con and count you as a dwarf. This opens you up for Dwarf paragon for another stat boost (+2 con).

After all modifiers are in place, you get +8 str and +8 con while maintaining mostly full bab (you loose 1 point to warshaper, and 1 to human paragon)

You can switch out human paragon for orc paragon and get slightly better bab at the cost of a feat.

Take the extra rage, intimidating rage, and sudden rage feats.

Laugh, because you simultaneously count as a human, orc, half orc, dwarf, and changling.

[Krazzman]

Well, my advice is then to go barbarian and take a greatsword.

Maybe

Barbarian 1 / 3 Half-orc paragon 3 / Warshaper 4 / Human Paragon 3 / Stone blessed 3 / dwarf Paragon 3 / Fighter 3

Ok, so you take the Racial emulation feat at 1st level to count as a half orc. Once you count as a half orc, you qualify for half orc paragon (+2 str, a bonus to intimidate, and 1 extra rage/day is better than barbarian 2-4). You follow this with warshaper, as you meet the prereqs with +4 bab. This can be followed with Human paragon for a free feat and +2 to a stat of your choice (str) as half orc paragon lets you qualify. Then you go for stoneblessed to give you +2 con and count you as a dwarf. This opens you up for Dwarf paragon for another stat boost (+2 con).

After all modifiers are in place, you get +8 str and +8 con while maintaining mostly full bab (you loose 1 point to warshaper, and 1 to human paragon)

You can switch out human paragon for orc paragon and get slightly better bab at the cost of a feat.

Take the extra rage, intimidating rage, and sudden rage feats.

Laugh, because you simultaneously count as a human, orc, half orc, dwarf, and changling.

If I would pull that one my DM would throw the Unearthed Arcana at me (which I did not list as I don't know if he would incorporate it).

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, everything but stoneblessed and racial emulation are in the SRD. Stoneblessed is races of stone, if memory serves me, and racial emulation is a changling feat, so I assumed you had access because you are a changling.

[Snowbluff]

Edit: An important caveat to this: you and your DM need to come up with a sensible houserule for Warshaper natural attacks. As it stands, you can pick up as many natural attacks as you have move actions, then keep them for the rest of the day. That, needless to say, is silly, and your DM should probably come up with some sort of reasonable limit. Limits I've heard include one at a time, one per "attack mode" listed in the MM, and one per class level.

Someone counted. IIRC, the max is 108 colossal weapon, since 'grow' means 'make larger,' which is the primary function of the ability. Growing (as in gaining) a new weapon only happens if the weapon does not yet exist on the character/creature.

[Urpriest]

That is exactly my problem. Feeling that I gave up on 9th's (seriously spoken I have yet to see a campaign last longer than level 6 though. So far every time something prevented that) Casting is not that important. Flight is. Hence my first thought being Shapeshifting druid for 3rd level Eagle form. (Also I don't like Animal Companions and the normal Wildshape...)

5th level, unless I'm misreading things. Might make it less worth the investment, by that point you could just have item-based flight.

[ddude987]

If you want flight, and don't mine 1 LA, white dragonspawn is a personal favorite. That also gets you monstrous humanoid type which means you now qualify for soul eater, which with warshaper, can be very effective. Grab a level of wizard for wand usage and get a weapon with a wand slot and a wand of wraithstrike and go to town.

[CIDE]

Someone counted. IIRC, the max is 108 colossal weapon, since 'grow' means 'make larger,' which is the primary function of the ability. Growing (as in gaining) a new weapon only happens if the weapon does not yet exist on the character/creature.

Was that the thread that also listed stuff like ghosts touch attacks and the various rays as natural weapons as well? 'cause I think most DM's wouldn't buy that.

[Snowbluff]

Was that the thread that also listed stuff like ghosts touch attacks and the various rays as natural weapons as well? 'cause I think most DM's wouldn't buy that.

It's possible. Like Urpriest said, even with the proper reading a nerf may be in order.

[CIDE]

It's possible. Like Urpriest said, even with the proper reading a nerf may be in order.

Probably the easiest one that may still potentially be interpreted in RAW (at least one reading of RAW) is just to only allow the Warshaper use the natural weapons in the listing in I think MM1. Also, just to reinforce the point already made earlier (since this is also RAW) to only allow one natural weapon of each type. Likewise, "claws" is plural so that's two natural weapons, etc.

Which, without looking, comes to half a dozen natural attacks at max size which is only somewhat over powered at lower levels. It still doesn't deal with DR and enchanting them is going to be expensive and you're going to look absolutely horrible in any social situation if you keep them out and prepped.

[Krazzman]

5th level for eagle form? Hmm I'm AFB so I can't check but I could've sworn you get a "new" shape on each odd level.

Also Item based Flight won't really be an option. Be it due to WBL (which we never really enforced) or due to my dislike for items.
Is there an Incarnum Way to get flight faster than level 5?

But as Urpriest said getting into it ASAP is my goal. On something that can use the bonus Con and Str.

So far my best bet would probably be asking the DM to make a Ranger add Wildshape variant and then add Shapeshifter variant. (Although the Animal Companion is weaker...) My DM might allow this but it is a variable.

Also about the ruling of Morphic Weaponry... well size increase exactly once. Grow new weapon 1 group per level. At level 1: 1 bite. at level 2 1 bite 2 claws or similar. Looking at Totemist to roughly balance it.

I'd like to focus on just "Claws and Bite".

Another question regarding Shapeshift:
As a Druid, could I cast Animal Growth, hold the charge, shapeshift into something and then release the charge on myself to grow? Or won't this function?
Should I, if I go with Shapeshiftdruid, focus on reserve feats as they will be counting as SLA and can be used while in Shapeshift form?

EDIT:
About looking horribly in social situations: how about a hat of disguise? Since Trueseeing will always show me in True Changeling form...

[Fouredged Sword]

Incarnum can get limited flight at level 1. Airstep sandals. Once you can bind something to your arms, you can use asteral vembrances to get fly(20) average at all times. Combine to two and you can move as the higher move speed from airstep sandals and use the 20 average speed to stay airborn for as long as you like.

[Urpriest]

One big problem with Shapeshift is that Wildling Clasps don't work. I know you said you're generally below WBL, but are you typically far enough below that giving up access to essentially every item is worth it?

One amusing option for long-term flight is something that mimics Alter Self, accessible at-will. That seems to fit in well with your shapeshifting theme anyway, though it generally will be harder to get until higher level. Still, it has the advantage that you keep all your gear and other abilities. Thrall of Juiblex (BoVD), Slime Lord (PGtF), and most relevantly Cabinet Trickster (RoE) can give you that, as can Dragonfire Adept if you want it in base-class form.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or you can keep with your druid idea and just cast the spell as needed (thought it was a druid spell, but it's not) until you can hit 5th level and the flight forms. Really, druid 5 / warshaper 4 / druid 9 isn't a bad build. Yes, you loose some caster levels, and never get 9th level spells, but the bite of the X spells and shapeshift mean you have strength out the top of the scale, and can melee with the best of them.

This is one case where vow of poverty may be an acceptable option. If you go that direction, dump your wisdom to 13 and let the vow stat boosts carry it to 18, as you won't be casting spells in combat, so you don't need high wisdom to power your DCs. Focus on strength and con, with dex coming in 3rd.

[ohil]

Hello again Playground,

I'd like to play a changeling and go into warshaper (mainly for the stun/crit immunity + fast healing).

But my thoughts run in circles about what base class I should take.

Scout. 10 foot reach, and you can move for skirmish

[Krazzman]

To show our WBL progression:

In our last group Vow of Poverty would have been legitimately overpowered.

In the group we are in now we just don't follow the guidelines.
I think in the current campaign (which is on hiatus) we have around 3500 gold each (in magic items that we bought or gold that we haven't spend yet) as well as a ring of fire resistance and some miniscule other stuff we found. (Playing the Kingdoms of Kalamar adventure set in faerun)

Dragonfire Adept (which would lack breath weapon support) and Warlock might be nice options to get flight at level 6...

So far possible builds:
Duskblade4/Warshaper 4 (with practiced Spellcaster to not lose any Caster Level). (Flight through Magic, limited)
Barbarian1/other full BaB class3/Warshaper 4 (Maybe add faerun regional feat: Magical Training to then go into Dragon Disciple after Warshaper) (No flight except IF through Dragon Disciple at Character level 18)
Shapeshift Druid 6/Warshaper 4 (practiced Spellcaster) (Flight, but no Wildling clasps except through houserules/dm fiat)
Bard 6/Warshaper 4 (going for Inspire optimization [without SotH and WoC])
Dragonfire Adept or Warlock 6/Warshaper 4 (Flight, Invocations, Special Attack, DFA Con Synergy)
DM-Call:
Shapeshifting Ranger 4(or 5)/Warshaper 4 (Flight, albeit later or extra delaying Warshaper for 1 level)

Although Slimelord is really cool it is not what I intended for this char.